View Full Version : Combat Diver
Here's a question that I've had bouncing around in my knoggin for awhile.
Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline. I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission. But PJs and CCTs go through the program as part of their training.
Is it because of number of avalible slots? Which group you're going to be assinged to?
Just courious.
Team Sergeant
02-20-2005, 17:53
Here's a question that I've had bouncing around in my knoggin for awhile.
Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline. I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission. But PJs and CCTs go through the program as part of their training.
Is it because of number of avalible slots? Which group you're going to be assinged to?
Just courious.
First Infantry and now you're comparing Special Forces to PJ's? We must be failing to communicate here!
Before I (or anyone else) answers your question tell me what PJ’s and CCT primary missions are….. Same goes for SEALS. Then I’ll be more than happy to answer your questions…..
Team Sergeant
First Infantry and now you're comparing Special Forces to PJ's? We must be failing to communicate here!
Before I (or anyone else) answers your question tell me what PJ’s and CCT primary missions are….. Same goes for SEALS. Then I’ll be more than happy to answer your questions…..
Team Sergeant
OK.....Primary missions.
SEALs....playing beach vollyball, having good looking hair, clearing UW obstacles/mines, beach recon for landings, infiltration to take out bad guys.
Recon....clearing UW obstacles/mines, recon for beach landings for which ever Marine Division they're assinged to (at least that's what I was told by an old roommate of mine), having good looking hair (if any), taking out the bad guys thing.
CCTs....to get in by any way to set up airfields and provide CAS, having that good looking hair thing too.
PJs....having REALLY good looking hair, going to EVERY gentelmens club in the area, getting REALLY good places to sleep while deployed, getting REALLY good food while deployed, having lots and lots of care packages sent to them while they're deployed and going to the PX/AFFES every 2 hours to get milk to wash down all the cookies and brownies that were sent in the care packages, watching loads and loads of first run movies while on deployment, having REALLY good looking hair, (wait I already said that), then there's the thing about going in and getting downed pilots by whatever means necessary, (when they're not on crew rest).
TS...trust me. I was by NO means comparing SF to PJs, (although you know I do have a personal bias for PJs ;) ).
******Just an example here******
Just was wondering if a situation were required that the only way into an AO was by UW and there were say, 3 teams/ODAs with the same group and just a few from each team were Combat Diver qualed. Are those divers then pulled from thier respected teams to make up that team/ODA?
Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline.
When was the last time a team was inserted by SCUBA?
SCUBA is not a primary skill.
If everything that SF can and may do is included in the pipeline we would never have any SF Qualified graduates.
SEALS belong in the water. :D
Finally, yes occasionally composite teams are formed for special missions.
The Reaper
02-20-2005, 18:43
1. UWO is not a mission in and of itself.
2. It is one of several infiltration techniques, and has not been used much lately.
3. There has been so little requirement for it that a few years ago, we went down to one UWO trained ODA per Battalion.
4. Not everyone in SF can swim well enough to be CDQC qualified. Look at the numbers of PJs. They are less than 10% of the number of SF personnel. If we lost the 50% (or likely more) SF personnel who do not swim well enough to be CDQ, who were otherwise qualified, we would be killing ourselves to meet a requirement which is just aniother way to get to the target and start the real mission. As far as that goes, if we required all SF personnel to make it through the gates of Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, SFQC, Language, SERE, MFF, CDQC, Dive Supe, DMT, six SF MOSes, SFARTAEC, SOTIC, etc., we could spend 5 years in qualification training and wash out 90% of all SF personnel.
5. The key is deciding what skills are critical for everyone to have, what are essential to have someone on each team qualified in, and what a few teams (or people) per battalion need to know.
TR
TR: Speak of a double whammy. Apparently we think on the same frequency. :lifter
I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission
Were you talking about the Marine Force Recon companies or the Recon Battalions? Even in the Marines the Recon units have different missions, training requirements and schooling requirements.
Of course I'm assuming they haven't done away with them since the last time we hung out together.
Pete
Were you talking about the Marine Force Recon companies or the Recon Battalions? Even in the Marines the Recon units have different missions, training requirements and schooling requirements.
Of course I'm assuming they haven't done away with them since the last time we hung out together.
Pete
Pete....Marine Force is who(m) I was refering to.
TR & QRQ.....Thank you for clearing that up.
I had a feeling that it might have something to do with the amount of training (time wise), but the numbers never crossed my mind.
Thanks.
Not only initial training, but currency training would kill you. I wasn't on an MFF or Dive team, but I'm sure the guys here that were can tell you how often they had to pass up team training in the woods or on a range because they had to go do an MFF or dive requal for a week or so. And that is with only one of those specialties. When you have to maintain proficiency in diving, MFF, trauma care and technical climbing, I don't know how PJs get any time to train anything else.
Trip_Wire (RIP)
02-20-2005, 20:52
When was the last time a team was inserted by SCUBA?
SCUBA is not a primary skill.
If everything that SF can and may do is included in the pipeline we would never have any SF Qualified graduates.
SEALS belong in the water. :D
Finally, yes occasionally composite teams are formed for special missions.
I agree with both you and TR on this! That said, it seems to me just a few years ago there wass a move to have both SF and the Rangers to turn in all rebreathers and other SCUBA gear and give the missions that required UW work over to the SEALs. As I recall some in the 2nd Rangers did turn in their gear.
I for one would hate to see this happen for many reasons. Also, I can see the use of this equipment for other missions not involving inflirt. Bridges and Dams come to mind in DA type actions. :munchin
I should have posted the link to James Kennedy here for those who would appreciate the heritage of the early guys.
http://www.denverpost.com/obituaries/ci_13612910
Blitzzz (RIP)
10-23-2009, 05:18
It's been posted the imphasis on Scuba need be deimphasized.
I was the guy that pushed to get the WIC course.
Insertions by Scuba are no longer tenable for those outside the Navy as the launch sites are necessarily too close to the modern coastal watches and equipment (within 3 klicks of a shore line). Seals are the only ones to be able to do this with the small subs. (team delivery systems). I put our money on Surface swims, Kayaks, and Rubber boats. for a longer range insert with more equipment.
The Scuba need can still be necessary for deep Inland DA hits as mentioned above.
Thou they think they may, I don't think they'll go as deep as we.
That does not necessitate the maintenance of three teams per battalion.
SCUBA is not only an infiltration technique.
SCUBA (air, O2, mixed gas) is an additional skill which has many other applications.
Commitments of the limited dedicated UWO assets at any given time - combined with time, distance, transportation, weather, mission constraints - provide the arguments for having UWO qualified personnel/teams available in-theater when and wherever necessary.
USN - like the USAF - provide transportation for SO teams as directed by JCS. We used PBRs, CRCs, subs (SS and SSN/SSBN) and SDVs - along with other surface craft and USN RWAC. A taxi is a taxi no matter who's driving the damn thing.
PJ SCUBA training - unless they later manage a slot to the CDQC - is a basic introductory diving course at Panama City and nothing like the CDQC.
CD qualification is a time intensive and expensive skill to attain and maintain, and not everyone has the aptitude for it.
Putting one's proverbial eggs in a single basket makes no sense - especially within the SO community.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
SCUBA has been used for CA in the past. In Panama we went on CA MTTs to cut channeks through reefs to make access to fishing grounds for coastal villages.
In the Gatun recreational area we cut all underwater trees to a depth of 10 feet. I blew a lot of demo but never in anger.
In Thailand we recovered two Royal Lao T-28s - one in the Mekong near Savanaket and another in an inland lake NE of Vientienne.
Your forgot body recovery and de-mining ops - never liked those. :(
Richard
RUMINT has the CDQC POI changing to include kayaks & more CRRC time amongst other changes. Should get the complete skinny in DEC when I go down for Dive Supervisor.
x/S
Although time and resource intensive, I know, but has anybody ever considered a Rubber Duck/Limp Duck OTH Infil exercise in the POI for the CDQC or CDS? :confused:
Richard
...has anybody ever considered a Rubber Duck/Limp Duck OTH Infil exercise in the POI for the CDQC or CDS? .......
What skills are needed for that infil?
You could go down a long check list of whats needed but boil it down and there is not a whole lot of CD requirments in a Rubber Duck op.
Take a good rucksack team with real good swimmers and great canopy control, give them a little extra training and a few jumps and they would smoke a Dive team with piss poor canopy control.
"Fin Hard Mister" don't work too well out in the middle of the deep dark rolling ocean when you have no idea were the boat is. SEALs know all about that.
"Don't daydream up there, follow the damn boat!"
What skills are needed for that infil?
An OTH infil doesn't always end with the CRCs going into shore or everyone going the same place - and a before moonrise or after moonset RD/LD is not for the marginally skilled - especially during a marginal sea state.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Blitzzz (RIP)
10-24-2009, 08:29
While at Key west I developed a rigging system for F-470 zodiacs to be attached to the bottom of a blackhawk.
This system was aprovd by Airsysoms Command and further by the ACE board, who redesigned the rig to be sewn by the Riggers. It is in the rigger manual, but I don't know what it was renamed. I called it the Blitz (of course) rig.
It allows the craft to fly with doors closed at max speed and then allows the troops th open the doors and sit in the doors to drop with the boat . there is little cjhance to lose the boat and the swim to the boat is minimal.
This system also give control of the boat release to the pilot and crewchief.
Just fix'in stuff. Dave
P.S. anyone who went through the first WIC courses can attest to it's "Coolness".:cool:
...- and a before moonrise or after moonset RD/LD is not for the marginally skilled - especially during a marginal sea state.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Being on a dive team is more than wearing UDT shorts and looking cool on the beach with a good tan.
A nice thing about when there were 3 dive teams in a battalion was you got a good look at the ups and downs of each team. Where each put their focus.
Back when we were doing a number of Rubber Ducks our team started jumping bundles every chance we got. Used the bundle as the "RB" and chased it. That training paid off when we did Rubber Ducks in the ocean.
I've seen some surface swim teams and Kayak teams that could give a Dive Team a good run for their money out in the dark ocean.
And it's all just a way of getting to the beach were your real job starts.:D
We really got proficient with RDs when we did a 60 day commitment to the ACE Board testing the MARS and developing rigging procedures for RDs - a month down at NOSC EDU (Panama City) loading out of Tyndall and dropping 4 RDs/wk in the lake along the inland waterway and out in the Gulf for OTH runs really paid off for us as a team. Also got Mk14/15 (the MK15 could be used around magnetic mines) training.
Sometimes you lucked out and a 'detail' was really worth committing to during a support cycle. ;)
SCUBA Teams were a whole lotta work - a whole lotta fun - and a whole lotta "That sounds good...let's try it!"...which was usually followed by a whole lotta "WHAT THE HELL WERE WE THINKING!!??!" ;)
And it's all just a way of getting to the beach were your real job starts. :D
Genau! :D
Richard
LongWire
10-24-2009, 10:37
PJs....having REALLY good looking hair, going to EVERY gentelmens club in the area, getting REALLY good places to sleep while deployed, getting REALLY good food while deployed, having lots and lots of care packages sent to them while they're deployed and going to the PX/AFFES every 2 hours to get milk to wash down all the cookies and brownies that were sent in the care packages, watching loads and loads of first run movies while on deployment, having REALLY good looking hair, (wait I already said that), then there's the thing about going in and getting downed pilots by whatever means necessary, (when they're not on crew rest).
You forgot taking up all the seats in the Helo just to watch us get off do our thing and get back on!!!!!
In my 19 yrs, give me guys that can swim comfortably with their bdu's and web gear, and that would cover about 90% of the stuff that I have come across for me needing to swim in the first place. Polarized statement? Maybe.
By comparison, the last gig that I worked doing FID with Seals attached, We were working flat range drills (teaching jundi how to shoot), if I turned my back on the Seals for more than 5 mins, I would have to go back and police up the Sand Angel Jundis from them. Give those Seals a hose and every event has the potential to be Hell Week. Mind you this was from a Career Seal E-6 with 20ys in............
Thats not to say that all Career Seals are bad one's, but from what I've seen it takes at least 18 yrs for those guys to get High School out of their system, if they ever do. MHO........
Had the great pleasure of serving 24 months on one particular ODA that had been recently just another ruck team. Company commander was tasked by BN to select an ODA to work with US Marines in Maritime Ops. So off we went to Oceanside California, camp Pendleton and participated in the USMC Coxswain Cource, excellent instruction, tough PT, lots of swimming. Enjoyed every minute of it. Asked if SEALS ever participated, USMC NCOIC said they were banned, too many problems. Marines liked working with Army more than any other agency.
Marines understand infantry tactics as well. Because of our ODA success later, several Marines were able to attend the US Army Ranger Course. While in ANCOC/O&I, I saw one of "our" Marines in the 18C cource.
WD
p.s., It seemed that rucking using the same muscles as finning, hip flexors. With a little coaching from another dive team in BN, we all became fairly good swimmers. Never missed a day of PT in the pool.
From what I heard, helo cast & rubber ducks will be included in the new POI. Good thing I went to Cast Master while in the Navy. Blitzzz, in the USN we called your configuration a Kangaroo Duck or K Duck.
x/S
Peregrino
10-26-2009, 16:44
Guys - QUIT SPECULATING! You're starting to sound like the X-rays G-2ing SFAS. There's a lot of negotiating WRT the future of CDQC going on as we speak. What comes out the far end is going to resemble sausage - edible, maybe even good, but you don't want to know what went into making it. Good news - the end result will contain input from the CTSB that just concluded. Anything else is just speculation. Yes - I'm a spoil sport. It's part of my day job. :p
Blitzzz (RIP)
10-26-2009, 19:25
Hey Exquid, I saw the K-Duck and it is what Delta came up with. it is held to the bird with cargo staps with a pull release located in the center of the bird's floor. The Bird had to fly with the doors open and the crew had no control as to the boat's release and the troops could not deploy on top of the boat. All of that was fixed with My rig.
Blitz
1stindoor
10-27-2009, 06:23
As a diver ('93) and WIC graduate ('91), I can honestly say that I've used the skills I learned in WIC way more often than the skills I learned in dive school. That being said, I'm still an advocate of having the "tool" in our collective toolbox "just in case."
Blitzzz, I stand corrected. Cast Master was five years ago & I haven't used any of it since. Starting to get CRS already.
x/S
Blitzzz (RIP)
10-29-2009, 09:59
I am asking if there is anyone out there that has acess to a rigeger's manusl and may find the Rigging for the (blitz Rig). It's not called that in the Manual but it is there for sewing a harness for the Zodiac. PM me or post here if you have one thanks.
I invented it ,it passed AIr Systems Command safety but the ACE board designed a sewn harness from it and I've never seen it as printed.
I've got the one for air dropping of all types watercraft for SOF in a PDF - will look to see if I can find the one for RWAC rigging - probably a TM or TB vice an FM.
Richard
Texas18D
10-30-2009, 20:16
Here's a question that I've had bouncing around in my knoggin for awhile.
Why don't all SF go through the Combat Diver program going through the pipeline. I know SEALs and Recon do it for their mission. But PJs and CCTs go through the program as part of their training.
Is it because of number of avalible slots? Which group you're going to be assinged to?
Just courious.
The army mostly fights on land. It changes our priorities a bit.
arbncdt1
11-08-2009, 02:17
SCUBA is not only an infiltration technique.
SCUBA (air, O2, mixed gas) is an additional skill which has many other applications.
Commitments of the limited dedicated UWO assets at any given time - combined with time, distance, transportation, weather, mission constraints - provide the arguments for having UWO qualified personnel/teams available in-theater when and wherever necessary.
USN - like the USAF - provide transportation for SO teams as directed by JCS. We used PBRs, CRCs, subs (SS and SSN/SSBN) and SDVs - along with other surface craft and USN RWAC. A taxi is a taxi no matter who's driving the damn thing.
PJ SCUBA training - unless they later manage a slot to the CDQC - is a basic introductory diving course at Panama City and nothing like the CDQC.
CD qualification is a time intensive and expensive skill to attain and maintain, and not everyone has the aptitude for it.
Putting one's proverbial eggs in a single basket makes no sense - especially within the SO community.
Richard's $.02 :munchin
Are you stating that in PJ scuba is not as physically demanding as CDQC? I used to be in the Army. Currently, I am in the Air Guard, pursuing TCAP. One of my goals is to get my bubble.
Blitzzz (RIP)
11-08-2009, 06:24
I will just back Richard's post of PJ scuba. Pamama city is not the same as Key West.
Are you stating that in PJ scuba is not as physically demanding as CDQC?
Yes - remember, each are designed to meet the mission requirements of their respective organizations.
Richard
Surgicalcric
11-08-2009, 08:44
...One of my goals is to get my bubble.
That email you received when you registered here, re/read it and follow the instructions contained therein before posting again...
Welcome to PS.com and best of luck in your goal......
Crip
The Reaper
11-08-2009, 09:53
Are you stating that in PJ scuba is not as physically demanding as CDQC? I used to be in the Army. Currently, I am in the Air Guard, pursuing TCAP. One of my goals is to get my bubble.
You need to read the rules and stickies and follow them before posting again.
BTW, are you airborne, or spec ops, or do you just like to tell people that you are?
You are not reflecting credibly upon yourself, or your service.
TR
arbncdt1
11-08-2009, 12:41
You need to read the rules and stickies and follow them before posting again.
BTW, are you airborne, or spec ops, or do you just like to tell people that you are?
You are not reflecting credibly upon yourself, or your service.
TR
With all due respect, when did I state that I was an operator? I am airborne qualified.
Surgicalcric
11-08-2009, 13:04
With all due respect, when did I state that I was an operator? I am airborne qualified.
When did you post an intro?
DO NOT post again until you have read your registration email and complied with the instructions contained therein. You will not be asked again.
Crip
I will make a short statement if I may.
PJ training is, it itself as intensive and demanding as other sof selection and qual courses. They graduate a small percentage. SCUBA is a very small sector of the overall colurse. After the SCUBA training in the 8th we conducted a SAR course based upon the USAF SAR POI. PJs wewre a spinoff of the USAF SAR.
How many admins are there here now? Whew!!!
The Reaper
11-08-2009, 17:20
With all due respect, when did I state that I was an operator? I am airborne qualified.
Your email address that you registered with would seem to indicate that you are claiming to be both Airborne and Spec Ops.
Are you?
Before you answer, I again strongly suggest that you read the Rules and Stickies and comply. I will not ask you to again.
TR