Honey! Bring the checkbook!

[NousDefionsDoc]

Cool! Reaper was probably all over this.

[TRUST]

The official HKM4 System page for those [1 or 2 guys maybe] who haven't seen it:
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/rifles-carbines/m4.html

HK's SHOT Show gallery [updated regularly]:
http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/special_events/shotshowphotogallery.html

TRUST

[IrishEKU]

NDD,

I don't know how much you make it over to SOCNET anymore, but there is a running thread over there on this.

IMHO,

Forget HK and go with Barrett's 6.8mm SPC proposal. Save a whole lot of money by DXing the XM-8/26 and use the proposed "drop in" on the current lower frames. The only usable thing I can see HK bringing to the table is it's gas cylender tech, mesh that with Barrett's system and GTG.

BTW,

The picture above is HK's "drop in" with it's improvements untill the XM-8 is O-K'd. Why not try taking two birds with one 5.56mm stone? :D

[Roguish Lawyer]

Originally posted by TRUST
The official HKM4 System page for those [1 or 2 guys maybe] who haven't seen it:
http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/Military-LE/rifles-carbines/m4.html

HK's SHOT Show gallery [updated regularly]:
http://www.hk-usa.com/corporate/media/special_events/shotshowphotogallery.html

TRUST

I liked this part:

The elimination of the gas tube typical of the Stoner AR15/M16/M4 direct gas operating system means that the HKM4 will function normally even if the weapon is fired full of water without first being drained.

Says not available 'til late 2004, and they are selling to military and LE only.

[shadowflyer]

Wonder if they will be making this one down at the Columbus GA Manufacturing facility? I had heard that they were only going to be making the XM-8 and a few select pistols down there.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I know Larry Vickers in the Shot Show gallery. and I pretty much hate anybody that's there right now.:D

[Ghostrider]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I know ...... and I pretty much hate anybody that's there right now.:D

Concur, especially one of my TCs who gets to be there for free just being there with a HUMVEE as a static display.

[QuietShootr]

Hope they decide to sell the uppers.

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Cool! Reaper was probably all over this.

As a matter of fact, I did get to play with the H&K M-16/M-4, and several XM-8 variants.

Liked the gas system and the steel mags of the H&K M-4, two weak points of the AR-15/M-16 systems.

I also was priviliged to watch Sinister Dave, Vickers, and a couple of other guys go at it in the H&K booth over the merits of the various systems. Learned quite a bit.

The 6.8 has no military future, IMHO. Didn't work too well at the Barrett demo, either. Has the potential to be a good LE caliber.

I must be old school, I would never offer a demo on a system that I hadn't personally tested that day, with that ammo, in that configuration, on that range, and could bet my life on.

Just my .02.

TR

[Air.177]

TR-What did you think of the XM8?

[longrange1947]

Reaper stated - The 6.8 has no military future, IMHO

I agree 100%. It is a flavor of the month.

The money used in developing a round that does not go with any other weapon or "indig supply point" would be better used in buying ammo that does work in the weapon systems now used in our allies.

Try running over to the nearest unit and ask for some spare 6.8 ammo. How about using the extra SAW ammo then, opps does not match either.

[NousDefionsDoc]

I must be old school, I would never offer a demo on a system that I hadn't personally tested that day, with that ammo, in that configuration, on that range, and could bet my life on.

That's professionalism and experience. I'm the same exact way and that's one of the hardest things to drill into people's heads, especially about being instructors. And it shows glaringly as soon as the victim opens his mouth or does the first manipulation.

I too am interested in hearing your opinions on the HK carbines.

[The Reaper]

I think that H&K's M-4/M-16 mods to the gas system and mags address the most significant shortcomings with the current weapons and should be tested as the next PIP cycle rolls around. I can see little more that can be done beyond that for the current weapon, though I do believe that there are ammo and optical sight issues that could be improved on.

IMHO, the XM8 is an attempt to salvage something from the horrible OICW program. Having said that, if I was in the market to equip a force from scratch, I would strongly consider it, but would not dump an existing M-16 series weapon for it. It has some good characteristics, most from the G-36, though the rifle and optics could use some more work before I would consider testing them.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that the Army is looking at replacing the 20" barrelled M-16 AND the 14.5" M-4 with the 12.5" XM-8. Other barrel lengths are available, but are not currently being considered. The conventional 5.56x45 FMJ is very velocity dependent in its wounding mechanism. The immutable laws of physics dictate that no matter how nice or sexy the weapon, a 12.5" barrel is not going to be more lethal than the already problematic 14.5" M-4, and may be less accurate. This would necessitate a better round (no, not the 6.8), a longer barrel, or both.

IMHO, the XM-8 does not provide much value added for the cost. For the amount of money spent, it is my belief that you would find a much better solution to soldiers hitting and killing bad guys in going to the 77 gr. bullet with sufficient quantities for all soldiers to shoot monthly, a good low powered optical sight, new ranges (indoor at BDE/BN level?), and well-qualified marksmanship training at a variety of KD and unknown ranges under varying conditions.

I am also sufficiently pragmatic to believe that the system may be adopted anyway for political reasons, regardless of the dubious value.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[Smokin Joe]

Originally posted by The Reaper
I think that H&K's M-4/M-16 mods to the gas system and mags address the most significant shortcomings with the current weapons and should be tested as the next PIP cycle rolls around. I can see little more that can be done beyond that for the current weapon, though I do believe that there are ammo and optical sight issues that could be improved on.

IMHO, the XM8 is an attempt to salvage something from the horrible OICW program. Having said that, if I was in the market to equip a force from scratch, I would strongly consider it, but would not dump an existing M-16 series weapon for it. It has some good characteristics, most from the G-36, though the rifle and optics could use some more work before I would consider testing them.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that the Army is looking at replacing the 20" barrelled M-16 AND the 14.5" M-4 with the 12.5" XM-8. Other barrel lengths are available, but are not currently being considered. The conventional 5.56x45 FMJ is very velocity dependent in its wounding mechanism. The immutable laws of physics dictate that no matter how nice or sexy the weapon, a 12.5" barrel is not going to be more lethal than the already problematic 14.5" M-4, and may be less accurate. This would necessitate a better round (no, not the 6.8), a longer barrel, or both.

IMHO, the XM-8 does not provide much value added for the cost. For the amount of money spent, it is my belief that you would find a much better solution to soldiers hitting and killing bad guys in going to the 77 gr. bullet with sufficient quantities for all soldiers to shoot monthly, a good low powered optical sight, new ranges (indoor at BDE/BN level?), and well-qualified marksmanship training at a variety of KD and unknown ranges under varying conditions.

I am also sufficiently pragmatic to believe that the system may be adopted anyway for political reasons, regardless of the dubious value.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

TR,

Please do not take this the wrong way (I'm not trying to be a smart ass).

What would your answer be to your above stated problems? I know you mentioned going to the 77 gr bullet but to solve the barrel issue what do you think should happen?

A bullpup rifle?

Or the same M-16/M-4 system with a 20 inch barrel?

Respectfully submitted

[The Reaper]

You asked for it. Want to be serious about shooting skills with me as the CSA?

Anybody not doing dedicated CQB, in an armored vehicle, or jumping MFF regularly gets an 18" or 20" barrel.

Would prefer 16" for the shorter guns, but understand there may be exceptions.

Big Army goes to the 77gr. cannelured 5.56 bullet.

Anyone expecting to engage only at CQB range gets an M68 (Aimpoint Comp M2). Anyone engaging precision targets out to moderate range gets an ACOG TA31. Dedicated marksmen out to 600 meters or so get an SPR with a TS30A2 optic. Anyone shooting further than that gets a 7.62 gas rifle. Dedicated snipers retain the M-24.

The M-4 gets a closed gas system upper. Mags are expendable and will be replaced by steel mags, which will be crushed after the first mag related malfunction. Units deploying get all new mags, and range time to test fire them before deploying.

All marksmanship instructors will be proficient in the use of firearms, or they will not be training my soldiers. Master gunners and master trainers will get increased opportunities for advanced schooling and promotion.

All soldiers will qualify with their issue weapons on KD and unknown distance ranges, under all conditions, on combat simulators, and will engage in a force on force with Simunitions as a graduation exercise. Fail, die, and you get recycled till you pass, or are completely covered with one giant blood bruise.

Specialty weapons (M-249, M-203, M-240, M-2, etc.) users get two weeks of additional training and qualification on their assigned weapons. Graduate and collect extra incentive pay for being a steely eyed killer. Fail and retrain, retest. Fail again and back to the pool.

Soldiers showing exceptional skills in Basic Marksmanship will be given incentives for advanced schooling and training, promoted one grade, and offered assignment choices.

Divisional MTUs are reinstated. Competitions are held. Winners get prizes, money, promotion points, free leaves. Good MTUs get rewarded. Bad ones get retrained, retested, and back to the pool if still deficient. The AMU is responsible for training and evaluation, and reports directly to the CSA.

Soldiers must reverify shooting skills upon PCS reporting. No pencil whipping. Fail, be retrained, retested. Fail again, and return to a training pool for additional instruction.

MTU conducts testing, not your buddy. Infantrymen qualify every two months. Other Combat Arms every three months. CS/CSS, every four months.

New ranges will be built. Battalion and below have indoor ranges and sub-cal devices. Ammo and weapons are available for practice to soldiers to practice with on the range anytime with adult supervision. Lunch on the range anyone? Weapons effects simulators are in every battalion as well. Competitions are held and the winners get slots to advanced schools and training.

Ammunition is procured as required, and small arms ammo (.22LR, 9mm, 5.56, and 7.62) issued upon demand, not by allocation. Usage is monitored. Commanders get reports two levels below, and one above. Fail to shoot, but had time for DONSAs and Training Holidays? One warning. Then you are relieved.

Soldiers get paid for qualifying Expert, and are required to shoot for points as part of their promotion. Can't qualify, can't get promoted.

Get caught with an unmaintained/unserviceable weapon and get UCMJed. I don't care what your hair looks like. Can you use that smokewagon?

No more BS medals for "being there". You want a medal, kill bad guys or save your buddies.

Sorry, just my .02, YMMV.

TR

[NousDefionsDoc]

Believe it or not, a lot of this sounds like my time with LTC DD.

Good plan Reaper. I'm not technical enough to know about the bullet weights and that, but as for the motivational factors, good stuff.

[BMT]

Damn TR you would bring smoke! I like your idea though.

BMT

[The Reaper]

Originally posted by BMT
Damn TR you would bring smoke! I like your idea though.

BMT

BMT:

As you know, we are not playing tiddlywinks with a Girl Scout Troop out there, this is serious business, and it is time we quit taking COO lessons and got serious about it.

NDD:

You and Doc can be my CSMs anytime. Team Sergeant has to be the SMA though.

TR

[Ambush Master]

I've got dibbs on the Fast Shooters, Fast Movers, The Big Boomers (Tubes), Tac Air, and Cobras Loaded with Nails !!!

This would be fun !!!! :D

Take Care !!

[brownapple]

Originally posted by The Reaper
You asked for it. Want to be serious about shooting skills with me as the CSA?

Anybody not doing dedicated CQB, in an armored vehicle, or jumping MFF regularly gets an 18" or 20" barrel.

Would prefer 16" for the shorter guns, but understand there may be exceptions.

Big Army goes to the 77gr. cannelured 5.56 bullet.

Anyone expecting to engage only at CQB range gets an M68 (Aimpoint Comp M2). Anyone engaging precision targets out to moderate range gets an ACOG TA31. Dedicated marksmen out to 600 meters or so get an SPR with a TS30A2 optic. Anyone shooting further than that gets a 7.62 gas rifle. Dedicated snipers retain the M-24.

The M-4 gets a closed gas system upper. Mags are expendable and will be replaced by steel mags, which will be crushed after the first mag related malfunction. Units deploying get all new mags, and range time to test fire them before deploying.

All marksmanship instructors will be proficient in the use of firearms, or they will not be training my soldiers. Master gunners and master trainers will get increased opportunities for advanced schooling and promotion.

All soldiers will qualify with their issue weapons on KD and unknown distance ranges, under all conditions, on combat simulators, and will engage in a force on force with Simunitions as a graduation exercise. Fail, die, and you get recycled till you pass, or are completely covered with one giant blood bruise.

Specialty weapons (M-249, M-203, M-240, M-2, etc.) users get two weeks of additional training and qualification on their assigned weapons. Graduate and collect extra incentive pay for being a steely eyed killer. Fail and retrain, retest. Fail again and back to the pool.

Soldiers showing exceptional skills in Basic Marksmanship will be given incentives for advanced schooling and training, promoted one grade, and offered assignment choices.

Divisional MTUs are reinstated. Competitions are held. Winners get prizes, money, promotion points, free leaves. Good MTUs get rewarded. Bad ones get retrained, retested, and back to the pool if still deficient. The AMU is responsible for training and evaluation, and reports directly to the CSA.

Soldiers must reverify shooting skills upon PCS reporting. No pencil whipping. Fail, be retrained, retested. Fail again, and return to a training pool for additional instruction.

MTU conducts testing, not your buddy. Infantrymen qualify every two months. Other Combat Arms every three months. CS/CSS, every four months.

New ranges will be built. Battalion and below have indoor ranges and sub-cal devices. Ammo and weapons are available for practice to soldiers to practice with on the range anytime with adult supervision. Lunch on the range anyone? Weapons effects simulators are in every battalion as well. Competitions are held and the winners get slots to advanced schools and training.

Ammunition is procured as required, and small arms ammo (.22LR, 9mm, 5.56, and 7.62) issued upon demand, not by allocation. Usage is monitored. Commanders get reports two levels below, and one above. Fail to shoot, but had time for DONSAs and Training Holidays? One warning. Then you are relieved.

Soldiers get paid for qualifying Expert, and are required to shoot for points as part of their promotion. Can't qualify, can't get promoted.

Get caught with an unmaintained/unserviceable weapon and get UCMJed. I don't care what your hair looks like. Can you use that smokewagon?

No more BS medals for "being there". You want a medal, kill bad guys or save your buddies.

Sorry, just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Heck of a good .02. The CSA seen this? He should.

[Smokin Joe]

Originally posted by The Reaper
You asked for it. Want to be serious about shooting skills with me as the CSA?

Anybody not doing dedicated CQB, in an armored vehicle, or jumping MFF regularly gets an 18" or 20" barrel.

Would prefer 16" for the shorter guns, but understand there may be exceptions.

Big Army goes to the 77gr. cannelured 5.56 bullet.

Anyone expecting to engage only at CQB range gets an M68 (Aimpoint Comp M2). Anyone engaging precision targets out to moderate range gets an ACOG TA31. Dedicated marksmen out to 600 meters or so get an SPR with a TS30A2 optic. Anyone shooting further than that gets a 7.62 gas rifle. Dedicated snipers retain the M-24.

The M-4 gets a closed gas system upper. Mags are expendable and will be replaced by steel mags, which will be crushed after the first mag related malfunction. Units deploying get all new mags, and range time to test fire them before deploying.

All marksmanship instructors will be proficient in the use of firearms, or they will not be training my soldiers. Master gunners and master trainers will get increased opportunities for advanced schooling and promotion.

All soldiers will qualify with their issue weapons on KD and unknown distance ranges, under all conditions, on combat simulators, and will engage in a force on force with Simunitions as a graduation exercise. Fail, die, and you get recycled till you pass, or are completely covered with one giant blood bruise.

Specialty weapons (M-249, M-203, M-240, M-2, etc.) users get two weeks of additional training and qualification on their assigned weapons. Graduate and collect extra incentive pay for being a steely eyed killer. Fail and retrain, retest. Fail again and back to the pool.

Soldiers showing exceptional skills in Basic Marksmanship will be given incentives for advanced schooling and training, promoted one grade, and offered assignment choices.

Divisional MTUs are reinstated. Competitions are held. Winners get prizes, money, promotion points, free leaves. Good MTUs get rewarded. Bad ones get retrained, retested, and back to the pool if still deficient. The AMU is responsible for training and evaluation, and reports directly to the CSA.

Soldiers must reverify shooting skills upon PCS reporting. No pencil whipping. Fail, be retrained, retested. Fail again, and return to a training pool for additional instruction.

MTU conducts testing, not your buddy. Infantrymen qualify every two months. Other Combat Arms every three months. CS/CSS, every four months.

New ranges will be built. Battalion and below have indoor ranges and sub-cal devices. Ammo and weapons are available for practice to soldiers to practice with on the range anytime with adult supervision. Lunch on the range anyone? Weapons effects simulators are in every battalion as well. Competitions are held and the winners get slots to advanced schools and training.

Ammunition is procured as required, and small arms ammo (.22LR, 9mm, 5.56, and 7.62) issued upon demand, not by allocation. Usage is monitored. Commanders get reports two levels below, and one above. Fail to shoot, but had time for DONSAs and Training Holidays? One warning. Then you are relieved.

Soldiers get paid for qualifying Expert, and are required to shoot for points as part of their promotion. Can't qualify, can't get promoted.

Get caught with an unmaintained/unserviceable weapon and get UCMJed. I don't care what your hair looks like. Can you use that smokewagon?

No more BS medals for "being there". You want a medal, kill bad guys or save your buddies.

Sorry, just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Damn....I was just talking about fixing the M-16/M-4. :)

I can't speak from experience but after reading everyone's reply's it sounds like you have the road map on how to fix the Army.

Thank you Sir!

[Ghostrider]

Reaper sir,

That was worth much more than .02. Responsibility, accountability, and standards....just the way it's supposed to be.

[TF Kilo]

Originally posted by The Reaper
You asked for it. Want to be serious about shooting skills with me as the CSA?

Anybody not doing dedicated CQB, in an armored vehicle, or jumping MFF regularly gets an 18" or 20" barrel.

Would prefer 16" for the shorter guns, but understand there may be exceptions.

Big Army goes to the 77gr. cannelured 5.56 bullet.

Anyone expecting to engage only at CQB range gets an M68 (Aimpoint Comp M2). Anyone engaging precision targets out to moderate range gets an ACOG TA31. Dedicated marksmen out to 600 meters or so get an SPR with a TS30A2 optic. Anyone shooting further than that gets a 7.62 gas rifle. Dedicated snipers retain the M-24.

The M-4 gets a closed gas system upper. Mags are expendable and will be replaced by steel mags, which will be crushed after the first mag related malfunction. Units deploying get all new mags, and range time to test fire them before deploying.

All marksmanship instructors will be proficient in the use of firearms, or they will not be training my soldiers. Master gunners and master trainers will get increased opportunities for advanced schooling and promotion.

All soldiers will qualify with their issue weapons on KD and unknown distance ranges, under all conditions, on combat simulators, and will engage in a force on force with Simunitions as a graduation exercise. Fail, die, and you get recycled till you pass, or are completely covered with one giant blood bruise.

Specialty weapons (M-249, M-203, M-240, M-2, etc.) users get two weeks of additional training and qualification on their assigned weapons. Graduate and collect extra incentive pay for being a steely eyed killer. Fail and retrain, retest. Fail again and back to the pool.

Soldiers showing exceptional skills in Basic Marksmanship will be given incentives for advanced schooling and training, promoted one grade, and offered assignment choices.

Divisional MTUs are reinstated. Competitions are held. Winners get prizes, money, promotion points, free leaves. Good MTUs get rewarded. Bad ones get retrained, retested, and back to the pool if still deficient. The AMU is responsible for training and evaluation, and reports directly to the CSA.

Soldiers must reverify shooting skills upon PCS reporting. No pencil whipping. Fail, be retrained, retested. Fail again, and return to a training pool for additional instruction.

MTU conducts testing, not your buddy. Infantrymen qualify every two months. Other Combat Arms every three months. CS/CSS, every four months.

New ranges will be built. Battalion and below have indoor ranges and sub-cal devices. Ammo and weapons are available for practice to soldiers to practice with on the range anytime with adult supervision. Lunch on the range anyone? Weapons effects simulators are in every battalion as well. Competitions are held and the winners get slots to advanced schools and training.

Ammunition is procured as required, and small arms ammo (.22LR, 9mm, 5.56, and 7.62) issued upon demand, not by allocation. Usage is monitored. Commanders get reports two levels below, and one above. Fail to shoot, but had time for DONSAs and Training Holidays? One warning. Then you are relieved.

Soldiers get paid for qualifying Expert, and are required to shoot for points as part of their promotion. Can't qualify, can't get promoted.

Get caught with an unmaintained/unserviceable weapon and get UCMJed. I don't care what your hair looks like. Can you use that smokewagon?

No more BS medals for "being there". You want a medal, kill bad guys or save your buddies.

Sorry, just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Where do I sign up?

[QuietShootr]

Dear God, Reaper...

I almost got teary reading that.:D

[KevinB]

TR - rooms for canuck's in the new model Army?

[AngelsSix]

DAAAAAANNNNGG!! I like that!! Can I be one of your token chicks?? :D

Seriously, between the folks on this board we could essentially put together one hell of a guerrilla (damn, sp) unit and probably outdo the Army at it's own job. I know it's not that easy however, I wish it were.
I was asking about different equipment in class today and why the police don't have said equipment. Guess what?? Money. We can't afford the things we know work better, keep us safer and help us to do our jobs more effectively because someone just has to get rich. Same goes for the military. If we started doing this the smart way, using our internal sources, we would be ten times more effective.
We tend to outsource the wrong things, IMO.
And it's funny to me how all of the people with the right ideas aren't the ones in politics or in charge where they could make a difference.

[KevinB]

Angles - do'ers are doing while the talkers are talking.

End result: Do'ers keep doing - and others run the show.

Just a little cynicism from North of the Line...

[Ambush Master]

Originally posted by KevinB
Angles - do'ers are doing while the talkers are talking.

End result: Do'ers keep doing - and others run the show.

Just a little cynicism from North of the Line...

In case you haven't noticed. Down here, "The Times They Are A Chang'in "

There are now "Do'ers" running the show !!!!

Just another .02 worth !!!

Later
Martin