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Pete
02-17-2005, 16:56
SF can infiltrate an area by land, sea or air. Each way has many variations and techniques but they all get the team on the ground in the right place and ready to do the job.

In 1975 the Special Forces Under Water Operations (SFUWO) course was run down on Fleming Key at Key West, Florida. The site was just a couple of one story block buildings for the students, a couple more for the instructors, a boat house and a small dirt and wood pier for loading students into the boats.

The military still owned a bunch of property and the Navy was running the O.T. school on the other side of Key West but most of the buildings and facilities were vacant and run down. The 50' tower and mess hall were over by the O.T. school. The Navy still ran an airfield at the next key over and that's where our C-130s would fly in and out of.

At the time the Army was still using the Emerson rig as it's closed circuit, C/C, underwater rebreathing rig. These things appeared to have been the original ones made and to us they seemed to be on their last leg. Nobdy was making repair parts anymore and it was all the instuctors could do to keep enough rigs up and running for the class. The canvas bags could blow out or one of the many O rings fail at any time. That made for real interesting swims.

The workings of the machine were fairly simple. The back pack was a small black rectangle about the size of a small suitcase made from plastic and it held the barrel lyme container that scubbed the air, the O2 bottle and various hoses and pipes. The front was a canvas yoke that went around your neck and down each side of your chest. You breathed through a double rubber hose assembly that had a mouthpiece with a "DIVE"/"SURFACE" position lever. When you put it all on it kind of looked like a modern B/C & Tank set up.

It was a pure O2 system that worked fairly well if everything was new but the ones we had were old. If you had any underwater emergency with the system you immediately put the mouthpiece on surface otherwise you'd get a mouthfull of lyme water and that stuff burned. An emergency would be caused by generally one of three things. The first was a blown bag, you knew right off when that happened, a loud BOOOSH, lots of bubbles and no air. The second was a blown O ring on the barrel lyme container. That was a loud gurgle followed by the sound of water in the hoses. Better get that mouth piece on the surface position PDQ. The last was a slow leak somewhere that started to flood the system. While you were swimming you were trying to calculate which would come first, the rig flooding out or your swim team hitting the beach.

I never saw an Emerson rig after graduation from the SFUWO course and within 3 years the Army was in transition to the CCR 1000 or as the Army liked to call it the Mk 15. The new system used Soda Sorb (sp?) and that did away with the lyme problem.

Pete

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 17:22
I never could see a practical use for closed circuit rigs. Your depth is restricted as well as physical activity. It was possible to out swim the unit resulting in anoxia. Can't work hard, can't swim long or fast and can't dive deep. -- Not to mention malfunctions! I am sure today's equipment is better but I still wonder if it is really practical.

On another tack, I recall night swims at the Nike site. If the instructors were sufficiently impish they could time the swims just right with the tide. On dark nights all one could see was the compass on the tack board -- much like instrument flying in aviation. If a swim team didn't pay attention to what they were doing they would be swept right around the island and continue on a course away from the island, much to the glee of the instructors who let them go untill they used up all of their air supply. The only way to sucessfully complete the swim was to take advantage of all of your allowed porpoises and crab accordingly ( as instructed. ahem!!) :D

As an instructor I used to love it when we saw one float/light going off in a different direction than the rest of the class. :D :D

FWI: All UDT missions in WWII wer conducted by surface swimmers.

Pete
02-17-2005, 17:50
On another tack, I recall night swims at the Nike site. .

Depending on the tide and location the compass course bay between Fleming Key and Sigsby (sp?) Park was about 8'-12' deep IIRC. You could sit on your buddies shoulders to get a good set for the compass.

There was a lot of stuff that lived in the bay and it was still there after dark. If you had the board you were skimming just over the top of the sea grass. Every now and then you'd go over something that would fly out of it's hole stiring up the water and phosphorescence. That would cause you to draw up and suck about 100psi real quick. Of course if you were the buddy pulling the bouy line when the compass man jerked up he'd bang into you.

One night me and my buddy glidded up onto the beach and pulled our masks off. We're looking around with the water level view and going "Man, I've never seen this part of the beach before." and "Wonder where we are?" Then one of the instuctors started yelling at us. When we jumped up we saw that we were right in front of the target. Hey, we were generally the 20-25 meter left or right crew.

Pete

Pete
02-17-2005, 18:31
I never could see a practical use for closed circuit rigs. Your depth is restricted as well as physical activity. It was possible to out swim the unit resulting in anoxia. Can't work hard, can't swim long or fast and can't dive deep. -- Not to mention malfunctions! I am sure today's equipment is better but I still wonder if it is really practical.


The CCR 1000/Mk 15 was to fix all that. I'm no commercial diver, only got in the water when I had to and was never one of the guys that worked in the SCUBA lockers but I'll throw out the low level view of the new rig.

As I understand it's background, it was developed as a commercial diving rig and then picked up by the Navy for use in their underwater minnie subs. With the Emerson rig going tits-up the Army started looking into the rig and picked up a number of them and gave them to the ACE Board.

The ACE board took a Flight Doc, some of their people and about 15 of us divers from 3/5th. We all when down to Key West for 2 1/2 months. The big shots were getting $20 per day and us divers were getting $2.50 a day. The joke was that we were getting $17.50 worth of sunshine.

The big thing about the Mk 15 was that it was heavy on the electronics and was a mixed gas rig. It worked off the partial pressure of O2. It had two gas bottles, one held the O2 and the other held regular air if you were only diving to 130' or so. If you used an inert gas instead of air you could go as deep as you wanted. The sensor system maintained the right partial pressure.

Combine that with the closed curcuit set up and it was a fairly good rig. The only problem was cost. The sucker was far to expensive to maintain in the groups. The groups did get a few and it was the C/C rig I was tested on in the CDS school in 1982 but they were all quickly replaced by the Draeger Lar-5 (sp?) system.

When we were testing it in Key West we were spending up to 6 hours under water at a time with it. The book said it could last 6 hours and the ACE board wanted to see if it would. We killed tons of time underwater all around Key West. We even had our own Mike Boat to haul us around.

We'd go out to Sand Key early in the morning and just go under. The civilian dive boat would come out and get ready to put their divers and swimmers in the water. The Mk 15 was a rebreather, no bubbles, and had a T-valve hook up for two breathing hoses. For grins a bunch of the guys from the Mike Boat would be swimming near the civilians before they got in the water. They'd all take a breath and go under, never coming up. It would drive the civilians crazy. Where did they go? They just free dived down to us and would grab the second mouthpiece. You'd get a low alarm light for a minute or two before the rig caught up again. It could handle two people, no problem.

We had a big chalk board on the boat and the guys would write "Sloppy Joe's 8:00PM" and wave it at the girls. Danged if it didn't work.

Pete

Roguish Lawyer
02-17-2005, 19:28
I never could see a practical use for closed circuit rigs.

Eliminate bubbles?

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 20:21
Eliminate bubbles?

True but why?? Presumably an infiltration would be done on an isolated site. Normal wind, waves and current will mask most bubbles. The marines in Danang had a good anti-swimmer program. Periodically and randomly they droped grenades off of the bridge into the river. Bubbles or no bubbles the swimmer is coming up. If you are operating in an area where seeing bubbles may compromise you, you may not want to be there.

Believe me, towing infiltration gear while breathing 100% oxygen can quickly lead to hypoxia.

I can see closed circuit as a breathing source in mini subs as Pete said. The new mixed-gas rigs are meant for deep diving and work. Admittedly all I swam were the Emerson and LARU -- talk about FOGdom. We didn't swim the LARU, it was a rescue breather meant for ascents from sidabled subs. We "got" to try it at the Navy tower -- just for "fun".

To me closed circuit is good for macho war stories in the bar!! Admittedly my opinion. It was really a confidence builder or destroyer rather than a practical means of infil.

I used to teach para-SCUBA in Panama. It was fun but no body has yet given me a practical use for para-SCUBA other than to say you did it. My Tm. Sgt made a HALO Scuba jump and swears that was a first and last. :D

Personally, I think a good means of beach infiltratio9n would be a high opening, way off shore on a black night and black canopies and a strong onshore wind. :cool:

Razor
02-17-2005, 20:33
I'm by NO means a UWO guy, Terry, but the closed circuit rigs probably make sense for the SEALs, who might have to do boat/ship interdiction missions in and around a well-guarded harbor. As for SF, where its probably more a means of infil/exfil, your remarks about picking a secluded area to operate negates the need for a c/c rig, like you pointed out. Different missions, different needs, but one purchasing officer who likes simplicity when ordering. :)

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 20:41
I'm by NO means a UWO guy, Terry, but the closed circuit rigs probably make sense for the SEALs, who might have to do boat/ship interdiction missions in and around a well-guarded harbor. As for SF, where its probably more a means of infil/exfil, your remarks about picking a secluded area to operate negates the need for a c/c rig, like you pointed out. Different missions, different needs, but one purchasing officer who likes simplicity when ordering. :)

I fully agree. I guess the nember of closed circuit rigs available says a lot. I agree with our doing squid work as much as I agree with SEALS out of water. :D

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 20:48
Don't get me wrong folks. I served on UWO teams in the 10th, 7th, 8th and 46th company. I served as an instructor in the 8th and 46th. I loved it and it has it's uses but I fail to see a practicality to closed circuit. Let the SEALS play with the underwater interdictions.

Pete
02-17-2005, 20:51
To me closed circuit is good for macho war stories in the bar!! Admittedly my opinion. It was really a confidence builder or destroyer rather than a practical means of infil.:

I completely agree with you on all points. It all adds up to chasing a rubber boat out the back of a 130 about 40 miles off shore. The only way to get to work.

All that other stuff just leads to the confidence of stepping of that ramp knowing you and the rest of the lads will 1) get out of the harness 2) get to/find that damn boat that's no higher than a wave 3) make sure you have everybody 4) get it de-rigged, fired up and headed in the right direction covering all that empty ocean 5) get through the surf and to the beach and last but not the least 6) drag all that heavy crap over the beach and out of site.

Then and only then can you get on with the job you're trained to do.

Pete

vsvo
02-17-2005, 22:05
The marines in Danang had a good anti-swimmer program. Periodically and randomly they droped grenades off of the bridge into the river. Bubbles or no bubbles the swimmer is coming up.

Dayum!

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks for sharing gentlemen.

The Reaper
02-17-2005, 22:21
So, anybody want to see what SFUWO looks like now?

TR

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 22:25
I'm skeered to say yes but what the hey! Go for it. :eek:

The Reaper
02-17-2005, 22:47
Pics from a recent trip.

TR

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 22:51
Thanks for the pics Top. It looks like we took over the Navy facility. :lifter

The Reaper
02-17-2005, 22:53
Pics of the old SFUWO area, IIRC, beside the seaplane hangar.

TR

Huey14
02-17-2005, 22:55
In the first and third pictures, you can see a thin structure to the left and right of the sign, respectively. What is it?

The Reaper
02-17-2005, 22:57
Thanks for the pics Top. It looks like we took over the Navy facility. :lifter

The current school is on the tip of Fleming Key, past the Naval Magazine and the animal quarrantine facility.

I believe that was the old Navy facility, but a lot of Army construction was done there as well, like the dive tower in the last pic of the first series.

I think that the old Army School was up by the seaplane hangar at the other end of Fleming Key as seen in the above pics.

TR

The Reaper
02-17-2005, 22:58
In the first and third pictures, you can see a thin structure to the left and right of the sign, respectively. What is it?

Obstacle course, cargo net climb.

TR

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 22:59
I lived in a hangar like that in Panama.

When I was at Fleming key, the only buildings I recall were a couple of temp buildings. I think they were quonset huts. I may have a pic.

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 23:10
Can't see the whole building but this is one of them. Bata Boot is in the black T-shirt.

The Reaper
02-17-2005, 23:23
I Knew Bata Boot Bennett and his wife. Great people.

The boat dock is in this pic, almost at the tip of Fleming, looking north of Sigsbee. Second pic is from Fleming towards Sigsbee.

TR

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 23:25
While we were at Key West in 69 for re-qual, Bata Boot had a new .357 mag. power head. While on a rec dive he shot a couple of fish with it. Soon there after my buddy and I saw a formation of lemon sharks orbit us. We swam to the boat underwater then surfaced. Whoever was in the boat asked what we were doing and we told him of the sharks. He said that if we were scared to get into the boat. That did it. Ain't nobody calling me a pussy so we continued our dive. Again a few more formations of sharks circled and we said "Screw this shit!!". By the time we got to the surface we were the only dummies left in the water. Moral, don't go diving with someone who has and intends to use a powerhead. :D

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 23:27
Wow!! Those boats are nice. I thought our Boston Whalers were something!!

Huey14
02-17-2005, 23:35
Obstacle course, cargo net climb.

TR

Duh.

Cheers, TR. Cool pics BTW.

QRQ 30
02-17-2005, 23:50
In Panama we had an LCM at our disposal. When we went outside the breakwater to go out for deep dives the water could get a little choppy. Those flat bottomed landing craft weren't very smooth riding. The students were in the cargo well while we gathered around on the wheel house deck. We used to open up cans of Ham and Lima Beans and eat them cold. We would let the nasty cold grease slither down our jowls. It never failed to evoke a couple of green faces and students heading to the rail to call "RALPF!!" :D

Pete
02-18-2005, 04:57
I think that the old Army School was up by the seaplane hangar at the other end of Fleming Key as seen in the above pics.TR

Hey There TR

In 75 the school was in the small block buildings at the north end of Fleming Key. Same place the Navy pistol range was but on the other side of the street. Any body who screwed up had to take a bucket over there and dig enough bullets for about ten pounds of weights. The students lived in one of the two story barracks just south of the bridge.

Somewhere by around 1980 the school had moved off Fleming Key and was in a couple of the two story barracks right by the bridge. IIRC they had built a dive tower by the hanger. I think it was more like 35' and a little wider. I had spent a lot more time in the 50' one at the old Navy dive site on the other side of the island and remember it better.

The road and the scrubby pines look the same though, thanks for the pictures.

Pete

TerribleTobyt
02-18-2005, 05:19
Can't see the whole building but this is one of them. Bata Boot is in the black T-shirt.

Ahhhhh, the old yellow NCO stripes on the fatigue shirt, OC 107, I believe!!

Good shit, Maynard!!!!!

Pete
02-18-2005, 05:38
The boat dock is in this pic, almost at the tip of Fleming, looking north of Sigsbee.TR

Here is a team picture taken during a requal around 1979. Somebody was getting an award.

This was taken at just about the same place. The old instructors building is on the left. You can just see the side wall and the picture window they had. The boat dock is just out of picture to the right. The boat house is on the other side of the parking lot and just out of picture to the left.

http://teamhouse.tni.net/scrapbook/JPeterson/KeyWest79a.htm

Para-SCUBA? Not as fun as it looks

http://teamhouse.tni.net/scrapbook/JPeterson/KeyWest79b.htm

Pete

QRQ 30
02-18-2005, 06:38
There is a SCUBA jump sequence 1/2 down this page. That is yours truly on the floor spotting the jump and"helping" jumpers out the door. :o

http://www.sfcommo.com/memoriesofaspecialforcessoldier/id8.html

Pete
02-18-2005, 07:50
Those flat bottomed landing craft weren't very smooth riding. :D

IIRC the Mike boat we used with the ACE board ended up with the SFUWO school for a number of years. I saw it down there during a number of the requals I went on. I think the last time I saw it was around 82/83. I think I have a picture of it somewhere and will look through that big box I've been going to put in order for the last 10 years.

The "Captain", a SP4 we called Spanky, drove it down the waterway from Ft Eustise (sp?), VA. Maybe the Army though it was cheaper to keep it there a while rather than drive it all the way back.

Pete

QRQ 30
02-18-2005, 08:29
The "Captain", a SP4

Our Captain was an SP5. He had almost 20 years and that's is all he ever did in the Army. I know he had to return to CONUS once in a while but he was as close to being a permanent resident in the Canal Zone as one can be. That boat was his wife and baby and he knew every screw, nut and bolt on it.

Roguish Lawyer
02-18-2005, 09:11
This is a great thread.

Pete, I am very glad you are on board!

SP5IC
02-19-2005, 10:30
We lived in screen sided buildings, much like Vietnam. It was a great summer. Key West was still cool. The Navy food was great, but we often dined on longustas. I still remember those freaking jellyfish. I had a blue tee shirt which the instructors made me remove as it was similar to what they wore. That was one hell of a summer...bar fights in Marathon, free beer in Key West.

QRQ 30
02-19-2005, 16:44
We lived in screen sided buildings, much like Vietnam. It was a great summer. Key West was still cool. The Navy food was great, but we often dined on longustas. I still remember those freaking jellyfish. I had a blue tee shirt which the instructors made me remove as it was similar to what they wore. That was one hell of a summer...bar fights in Marathon, free beer in Key West.

Thanks Mark. I knew we lived in some sort of temporary building.

The 10th in Germany had no permanent site. We trained at Chiem See. Squad tents were set up for us, there was a mess tent and field showers. For all parctical purposes we were "in the field". :lifter

Do you know how you can spot a military combat swimmer?

One arm is three inches longer than the other from "Cast and recoveries." :D

QRQ 30
02-19-2005, 17:50
In '67 we went to Livorno, Italy for sub/ salt water diving. BTW the Leaning Tower of Pisa" really does lean. :cool:

The first thing we noticed when going out of the harbor was that about 1/3 of the ships docked at the harbor were flying the Hammer and Sycle. For some reason we couldn't get clearance to conduct ship bottom searches on them. :cool:

The Med. is incredibly clear and we were on a rec. dive. There were octopi everywhere. One of the divers grabbed one. Who grabbed whom was a matter of opinion. Faster than you would think possible that octopus was sitting on the diver's head and had all eight arms wrapped around the swimmer's mask, regulator hoses and whatever else he could grab. It was truly hilarious and I about drowned from laughing so hard underwater. We took the octopussies to a Ristorante in town and the mama cooked up a good meal of calamari. :lifter

http://tadahling.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/scan0028.jpg

The Reaper
02-19-2005, 18:30
QRQ:

Calamari is squid.

Polpo is octopus.

TR

Team Sergeant
02-19-2005, 18:45
QRQ:

Calamari is squid.

Polpo is octopus.

TR

doh, I was not going to say a word! ;)

QRQ 30
02-19-2005, 19:00
QRQ:

Calamari is squid.

Polpo is octopus.

TR

OOOPS!! Well as long as it isn't poopoo.
I thought squid was a form of swab. :D

vsvo
02-19-2005, 22:00
We took the octopussies to a Ristorante in town...

I wouldn't dare submit this in best quotes, but it makes me chuckle. :)

SP5IC
02-20-2005, 09:37
The big boat we used for ocean diving was aptly named "Green Beret." It was refered to as a "Q Boat." I guess the "Q" could mean a few things given we were based in Key West. In reference to the Emerson rebreathers, we initially practiced in a pool at the Boca Chica airbase. Once we started on the Emersons, the flutter kicks disappeared.

Pete
02-20-2005, 10:07
I guess the "Q" could mean a few things given we were based in Key West

On one trip down there we got seconded to the Navy for some odd reason. They were dropping sonar bouys from a P-3 (?) aircraft. They were using an area that was about 45' - 60' deep and they wanted the bouys back if they sank.

We were loaded up on a LCU (?). It was a "drive on the back" craft with the beach landing ramp on the front . The well deck ran the full length. It had a two story tower on the right side and stairs to an area below the well deck that had bunks and the machinery spaces. If I ever figure out how to make pictures smaller I'd post them.

With the flat bottom on it half the guys were seasick most of the day. The cook liked to make chillie and hot dogs for lunch. I thought it was good chow but some of the others could not even come close to that area of the boat due to the smell.

Now does this sound like military planning or what? Remember the Navy was in charge, not us. We would load a dive team per boat in a number of little whalers and spread out over the drop area. As the plane dropped the bouys the boats would home in on the nearest ones and move over to them. One drop me and I think Juan were looking up and Juan goes "Hey Chief, that one looks like it's coming a little close". The chief gunned the motor and the bouy hit right where the boat had just been. Of course it sank and we bailed out to fetch it back.

All in a days work.

Pete

KW9598
07-16-2008, 10:29
just goes to show, you let people take pictures these days and you'll end up on Flikr lol

row 2, 3, and 4 (SFUWO inside compound shots)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/poddiverradio/page7/

JJ_BPK
07-17-2008, 04:51
Can't see the whole building but this is one of them. Bata Boot is in the black T-shirt.

That tin hut looks like our HOME, where I spent the summer of 69'. There was one Q-hut for living, a small shed for the tanks, a class room/shower/head, and the dock,, about it..

We didn't eat with Navy,, We use to wade off the dock to collect Lobster for Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner. The missile site was still active so the Marine Patrol stayed 500 yds off Flemming and let us be..

Weekends we treated ourselves to Lumm's, then moved the party to a place called the White Horse Inn on Truman..

I think we were the last class to use the LPSS-315 Sealion for training. It was de-commissioned and sunk for target practice in Sept of 69'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sealion_%28SS-315%29

We started with 70 some, lost two good man using the Emerson C/C, and graduated 11 or 12??

ZonieDiver
10-08-2009, 22:52
Our Captain was an SP5. He had almost 20 years and that's is all he ever did in the Army. I know he had to return to CONUS once in a while but he was as close to being a permanent resident in the Canal Zone as one can be. That boat was his wife and baby and he knew every screw, nut and bolt on it.


This may be the LCM and crew of which QRQ speaks! These slides date from '71-ish when I was on the ODA attached to JOTC for "support". We were picked up by the LCM at "Point Blue" beneath Fuerte San Lorenzo on the Chagres River, and taken "upriver" - ala "Apocolypse Now" - to the Expedient Obstacle Crossing Site, where I was the "assistant" to "Knot Man" - Sgt Jones.
Pic #1 - SGT Pierce - heading upriver
Pic #2 - The LCM arriving at Pt. Blue just before dawn. We had to travel from Ft. Gulick to Ft. Sherman, and then out to Pt. Blue to meet it and load our equipment, pick-up our 193rd support troops and head upriver to set up the Expedient Obstacle Crossing site.
Pic #3 - SGT Gates - aka "Knot Man" - who could tie all the intricate knots that held the "Slide For Life" together. He was due to DEROS within a year, and I was assigned to "learn everything he knows" and take over upon his departure. He is eating his "C-Rations" lunch here.

ZonieDiver
10-08-2009, 23:02
Moving upriver, we were "energetic" - but moving back "downriver," many were quite tired after a hard day in "de yungle"! :D
Pic #1 - Upriver - I thought the flag looked cool. SGT Pierce - with back to camera and SGT Mallory - with arm up.
Pic #2 - Downriver - Our 193rd Inf Bde support troops are exhausted. (Little did I know that within about 6 months, I'd BE in the 193rd). Our Det XO 1LT Killum is standing, getting a drink of water.
Pic #3 - With sleeping 193rd troops off to the sides, four of my fellow team members discuss the day's events. Sitting on the gunwhale to the left is our acting Team Sgt - SFC Hoagland. Next to him, wearing a beret, is Sgt Greene - who was due to DEROS, but waiting for his pregnant wife to "drop" - he was on "permanent CQ" but wanted to join us that day for a change of scenery. On his left, sans beret, is Sgt Pierce - who graduated from Wpns training and Phase III with me. Standing is SGT Halliday <sp> (soon to be SSG and have a heart attack at the NCO Academy - and I had to travel out to his apartment past "Check-Point Charlie" on the way to Porto Belo and give his wife the news).
#4 - I think that is SSG Steele, the JOTC Operations Committee NCOIC racked out on the way back, with SGT Pierce having moved to the stern and falling asleep in a rather precarious position.