Let's talk about our Relationship with Israel [Archive]

Surgicalcric

02-13-2004, 18:14

Given I am Jewish I try not to post on topics such as this because honestly my emotions tend to run high and my ability to be rational runs low. I have made many friends here and dont wish to alienate those with whom I share a kindship.

That being said I will give this a shot.

I object to the US sticking its nose in the national defense of Isreal. The US' policy on Isreal should be that of it's Isreal's problem and they have to handle it as they see fit, providing there are no crimes against humanity being committed. We can not expect to be able to hunt down the terrorists fighting against our way of life while telling Isreal they must back off the same tactics.

Isreal has been fighting against Arabic nations since the beginning of time. The US is not going to change the fact that they, Muslims, hate Isreal, and Jews in general, and the Palestinians wish to push Isreal into the sea. Arafat is nothing more than a terrorist who supports the homicide bombers with his money in the alleyways and then calls for them to stop the violence in public.

There will be no peace in the region in this life.

Roguish Lawyer

02-13-2004, 18:21

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
I object to the US sticking its nose in the national defense of Isreal. The US' policy on Isreal should be that of it's Isreal's problem and they have to handle it as they see fit, providing there are no crimes against humanity being committed. We can not expect to be able to hunt down the terrorists fighting against our way of life while telling Isreal they must back off the same tactics.

Are you saying we should cease providing foreign aid to Israel to the extent it is used for defense purposes?

(BTW -- "Crip" -- is that like cripple or like opposite of Blood?)

Surgicalcric

02-13-2004, 18:47

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Are you saying we should cease providing foreign aid to Israel to the extent it is used for defense purposes?

(BTW -- "Crip" -- is that like cripple or like opposite of Blood?)

1.) No thats not what I am saying at all. I think the US is talking out of its butt when we try to advise them on when and how to defend themselves when we have clearly never had to deal with it. We are trying to advise Isreal on how to fight a war they have been fighting since the beginning of time. Again, its not going to end in this life. Our foreign aid should be based on need, not on our ability, perceived or implied, to politically influence their decisions.

Did any of that make sense?

2.) Cripple. Goes back to my medical waiver issue. Its a NDD thing.

CommoGeek

02-13-2004, 18:54

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Imagine what scares me.

A lack of manhole covers....

Re: Crip's comment about no peace in that area in this life: I agree. That area is a mess. I think some foreign aid and some intell sharing is a great thing between us and Israel. I wish they'd take the gloves off and crush the Palestinians.

Roguish Lawyer

02-13-2004, 18:57

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
Did any of that make sense?

Yes, and I agree.

Surgicalcric

02-13-2004, 19:02

Since you have my thoughts on it Counselor what about your thoughts?

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2004, 19:04

Actually, the crip thing is Reaper's.

James, if you're Jewish you should really learn to spell Israel.

I tend to agree to a point. However, don't forget where Israel got all that military gear. When you borrow, the lender has a right of stipulation.

Israel could very well cause a huge problem in the region if the right person(s) aren't making the decisions - would you rather we picked their PMs?

The oil in that region is too important globally let any one country "do what it sees fit".

I'll admit, the US policy is at times contradictatory and may not always be the best policy, but most of what the US does in the region benefits Israel.

Imagine what Europe would do if Israel began to do "what it sees fit."

I think Israel is a friend to the US, one of a very few. Most of the time.

Valhal

02-13-2004, 19:08

Roguish Lawyer

02-13-2004, 19:15

1. Is Israel our closest or one of our closest allies, as it claims to be? Explain your answer, please.

I assume England is #1, but I understand Israel also to be high on the list. I am no expert, though, and I think many on this board are in very good position to evaluate this.

2. Is it in our national interest to have a close relationship with Israel? Why or why not?

I think so. Israel is the only country in the Middle East that shares our values. While supporting Israel arguably jeopardizes our access to oil and pisses off the muslim world, I believe in supporting our friends and killing our enemies. I also don't abandoning Israel would eliminate conflict with the muslim world in the long term. I also understand that there has been helpful cooperation among US and Israeli defense contractors and intelligence agencies.

3. What Israeli policies, if any, do you object to? Why?

I don't like socialism, and Israel's domestic policies go in that direction. As far as the Palestinians go, I think the Israelis have shown extraordinary restraint. I do not believe that the Palestinians and the Arab world will accept anything short of the destruction of Israel -- the "peace process" for them is just a two-step plan for destroying Israel.

4. If you controlled our foreign policy, would you alter our relationship with Israel? If so, how?

I'd move our embassy to Jerusalem, recognize Israel's annexation of Jerusalem, and end the charade of the road map, Oslo and all that stuff. We should not act like there are two warring parties equally at fault when such is not the case.

Roguish Lawyer

02-13-2004, 19:19

Originally posted by Valhal
I have found that most Americans are ignorant on this issue basing most of thier opinions on the biased news coverage. Most know nothing at all about the Palestinian side of the argument.

:rolleyes:

You think the media is biased in favor of Israel? You certainly have been reading your Chomsky.

Roguish Lawyer

02-13-2004, 19:21

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I think Israel is a friend to the US, one of a very few. Most of the time.

Important qualification?

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2004, 19:26

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Important qualification?

No, not really. Any country that doesn't put its own best interests in front is foolish. The US, I think, often makes the mistake of thinking Israel should always do exactly what we think it should. Israel's best interests are not necessarily the US' in every case.

However, Israel needs to understand that reliance on the US power and utlizing the powerful lobby they have in the US brings responsibility along with it.

Just like the Latino countries will have to learn the same thing as they grow in power through their US voters.

pulque

02-13-2004, 19:30

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Actually, the crip thing is Reaper's.

James, if you're Jewish you should really learn to spell Israel.

LOL.

oops, i'm scared of NDD too.

I have opinions about Israel because I have relatives who live there and a whole bunch of family who are outraged with my questioning of U.S. support of Israel. I used to feel more supportive about Israel until I started looking into history, especially the sabra and shatila massacres. Even though I am critical, I think that the surrounding arab states could/should have done more to absorb the palestinians.

The best thing I have read was a piece of graphic journalism called Palestine by Joe Sacco.

Surgicalcric

02-13-2004, 19:36

NDD:

You know, my dad used to tell me the same thing about spelling, but he also thumped my skull because of it. lol

I thought you were the one who edited my title. Oh well, wrong again.
____________________

Good points all of them.

IMHO Europe would do the same thing they are doing with our war on terrorism if Israel was to defend itself the way I wish they would.

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2004, 19:39

I did the title, but the name is Reaper's.

I agree with you about Europe, but they would probably become actively engaged against Israel in at least some cases. There seems to be a real problem in some parts of the world with anti-Semitism. I don't really understand why, but the hatred runs very deep and its not all about kicking the Arabs out.

CPTAUSRET

02-13-2004, 19:47

I too side with Israel, I also believe that if we are bankrolling them they need to listen to the US.

As an aside, does anyone remember the name of our intelligence gathering ship which was hosed by the Israeli Air Force, a few years ago?

Terry

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2004, 19:50

The USS Liberty?

Surgicalcric

02-13-2004, 19:52

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
I did the title, but the name is Reaper's.

I agree with you about Europe, but they would probably become actively engaged against Israel in at least some cases. There seems to be a real problem in some parts of the world with anti-Semitism. I don't really understand why, but the hatred runs very deep and its not all about kicking the Arabs out.

Got it.

Anti-Semitism...you are telling me. It is not just in Europe. There was alot of it here in SC when I was growing up. I am suprised I made it out of highschool alive. For a while it seemed like my father was having parent-teacher conferences every week. I even had a HS Principal tell my dad I was to blame because I wore a Star of David on my necklace. Did I stop? NO. Do I still wear one? YES.

CPTAUSRET

02-13-2004, 19:53

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The USS Liberty?

Yes, that's what I thought.

Terry

Roguish Lawyer

02-13-2004, 19:53

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
The USS Liberty?

Speaking of that ship, I tried to get Bo McCormick to sign up here but I don't think he ever did.

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2004, 19:57

They shouldn't have shot it up - but that's a good example of why when someone yells "Fight! fight!" I don't go running down there to watch.

Surgicalcric

02-13-2004, 19:58

CPTAUSRET, NDD:

I totally agree with the money issues. The problem is how do you tell them, "I know you are being slaughtered here, but dont fight back. Or when you do dont be so obvious about it." I dont know the answer to it.

CPTAUSRET

02-13-2004, 19:59

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
They shouldn't have shot it up -

Concur, never believed it was an accident.

Terry

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2004, 20:00

The answer is "Thank you very much Uncle Sugar, we don't want your aid because the conditions are not compatible with our national interests."

Once they quit taking the aid, what's the US going to tell them?

CPTAUSRET

02-13-2004, 20:00

Originally posted by Surgicalcric
CPTAUSRET, NDD:

I totally agree with the money issues. The problem is how do you tell them, "I know you are being slaughtered here, but dont fight back. Or when you do dont be so obvious about it." I dont know the answer to it.

You are not alone. I don't know the answer either:

Terry

CSB

02-13-2004, 20:02

First, before venturing to give an opinion, allow me to post my credentials:

http://members.aol.com/cbjpegs/CARD/CARD.JPG

1 - From the Israeli point of view, America is absolutely their closest and most important ally. There is no other nation they respect more, envy more, or are more willing to help with shared national intelligence resources. From the American point of view, Israel is an ally, but ranks with Taiwan, Korea, etc. as more of a military/security/trade partner than a true cutural friend in the sense of shared history/language, etc.

2 - As the sole democracy in the mideast, and as the undisputed military power in the mideast, it is in our national interest to have Israel as a close ally. (Here comes the "... but, ..."). Israel's first and most important objective is the continued existence of the nation of Israel. Others have said it better than me, but Israel cannot afford to lose a war, not even a major battle. It would mean the end of the nation. And with that at stake, Israel's circle of friends stops at it's own borders: "The only secure ground is the ground under your boots."

3 - I fully agree with the macro-politics of the government of Israel. Strategic alliances, military configuration, and international cooperation/confrontation is exactly as it should be to advance Israeli interests and deny support to Israel's enemies. At the micro-politics and face-to-face level Israel can be incredibly stupid. Soldiers of the IDF can be cold, nasty, brutish and mean when such action is not required. The iron fist must have a velvet glove. Prime example: the bulldozer death of the American peacenik. She should heve been picked up hands and feet and given the bum's rush to the next outgoing flight from Ben Gurion International Airport. Her death created a "martyr," encouraged the insurgents, and worst of all: did nothing to create a more peaceable population in Gaza.

4 - Would I change our relationship? No. Israel does not respond well to threats, any more than the members of this board respond well to threats. As a nation, Israel will stand up for itself before bowing to any "pressure." I think we need to work on Syria, Lebanon, and yes, the House of Saud, before we can expect Israel to listen to the United States on how to manage their affairs.

pulque

02-13-2004, 20:44

Originally posted by CSB
[B] From the American point of view, Israel is an ally, but ranks with Taiwan, Korea, etc. as more of a military/security/trade partner than a true cutural friend in the sense of shared history/language, etc.

Would I change our relationship? No. Israel does not respond well to threats, any more than the members of this board respond well to threats. As a nation, Israel will stand up for itself before bowing to any "pressure." I think we need to work on Syria, Lebanon, and yes, the House of Saud, before we can expect Israel to listen to the United States on how to manage their affairs.

Sir, I am ignorant of the amount of economic and military aid given to Taiwan and Korea. Would reducing the amount of military and economic aid given to Israel be a form of futile pressure in your opinion (from the Israeli POV and the U.S. POV)?

respectfully submitted.

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2004, 20:50

Originally posted by pulque
Sir, I am ignorant of the amount of economic and military aid given to Taiwan and Korea. Would reducing the amount of military and economic aid given to Israel be a form of futile pressure in your opinion (from the Israeli POV and the U.S. POV)?

respectfully submitted.

Did you curtsey when you wrote that? He ain't the Pope.

And while we're on the subject, next one calls me sir is going to be in big trouble...LOL

pulque

02-13-2004, 21:04

Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
Did you curtsey when you wrote that? He ain't the Pope.

I did not know whether he was the pope or not. I am hoping to garner favor to get papal blessings for tango and flamenco. Additionally, his (albeit) credentialed post seemed exceptionally reasoned and worthy of respect.

And while we're on the subject, next one calls me sir is going to be in big trouble...LOL

Will comply El Senor.

CRad

02-13-2004, 21:08

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
OK, you want a lawyer?

Mrs. CRad, the question I am asking you actually is a little bit different. Madame reporter, would you please read back the question?

Would you please answer the question? LOL

The people at my house were nagging for chow. I hate when they line up and bang their cups on the bars.

Anytime a person only considered one side and tosses the other away as irrelevant they are biased, in my opinion.

A person who actually was considering a mainstream opinion would look at the larger picture, grand scheme of things such as the attitudes and opinions of other countries in the Middle East toward the Israelis as well as the Palistinians. You may be mislead by me using mainstream. The I probably should be using is well-rounded or even carefully considered.

NousDefionsDoc

02-13-2004, 21:08

Respect yes. Not fear.

"El Senor" Smart aleck:D

CSB

02-13-2004, 21:59

It is difficult to directly measure the amount of foreign aid to the countries mentioned (Korea and Taiwan). While there are direct grants to Israel (and Egypt) as a reward and incentive for the Camp David Peace treaty, there are Foreign Military Sales credits and guarantees to those and other countries that are more intangible, and there are indirect means of assistance.

For example, those of us who served in Korea will remember KATUSA's - Korean Augmentation to the United States Army - the Korean soldiers who lived and worked with US forces, filling T.O. & E. positions in US units. Is the payroll of KATUSA's -- made by the United States -- "foreign aid." For that matter, is the entire presence of the U.S. Forces Korea a form of foreign aid?

Reducing grants and guarantees to Israel may weaken their defensive ability, but my experience with Israelis is that they are a proud and headstrong people -- not unlike the United States itself -- who cannot be bullied into making changes in foreign policy based on the carrot and stick of US financial assistance.

For example, I have heard it suggested that the United States should freeze foreign military assistance to Israel if Israel constructs the security fence along the Green Line; or if Israel builds any part of the fence east of the Green Line. "Cut off the aid, that will make them stop" is the theory.

Based on what I know of Israel, if the government feels that the fence is the best way to preclude terrorist attacks, then the fence will be built even if it means the loss of U.S. aid.

Again, Israel will do what is best for Israel (who can blame them) even if it causes difficulties with their principal ally.

Example? Two words: Jonathan Pollard.

Valhal

02-14-2004, 00:04

Over the years the US has given Israel staggering amounts of aid. So we definitely consider them an important ally. But why is that? Not because of any cultural ties. If I my be non PC it is because it affords us a solid piece of ground in order to dominate the area if it comes down to that. The ME is of dire importance to the US and the world. We will never let the oil spigot be taken away from us. The Israelis make a perfect ally and supporting them like we do is very Machiavellian.
That's my attempt to distill the pure grain from the BS. The only credentials I have is that I kick ass at RISK.

Lets not keep score but lets just say that both sides have killed innocent lives quite frequently.

As for the Media, I guess it depends where you get your info. And I agree RL I don't know what to make out of Chomsky but he is passionate about this issue. I wish I was more erudite and had the time to look at both sides in depth.

There have been numerous UN resolutions demanding that Israel go back to the 1967 borders and stop setting up colonies within the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Only 2 votes opposed the resolutions. Can you guess who?

The Arab world sees that the US is acting hypocritically. Much of the bad sentiments they feel towards us has to do with the way we handle the Israeli Palestinian issue. Very one sided.

I honestly look at the world today and see two sides galvanizing against each other, a clash of civilizations. If we are really interested in finding a path out of decades of confrontation then yes we need to change some policies.

And just so you know, if and when the time comes I'll be there right beside my fellow American soldiers. DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY. AMEN.

NousDefionsDoc

02-14-2004, 00:09

Well said sluggo. Nice post.

Surgicalcric

02-14-2004, 01:03

The US' policies or lack thereof are not going to stop the Israelis from building what it sees as a defense against the Palestinian terror attacks. Isreal is not going to withdraw its soldiers from the West Bank and Gaza because the US says they should. As was stated before Israelis are a headstrong people. The only bargaining tool the Palestinians bring to the table is terror and their diplomats comes strapped with 30lbs of comp B.

Each time there has been a cease fire in the past two years it has been broken by the homicide bombers, not by the Israelis. They walk into the middle of busy bus stops, or cafe's, or shopping malls and kill untold numbers of civilians indiscriminately. In response the IDF returns to the occupied territories, hunts down and captures or kills the terrorists responsible for such actions. In the midst of these military campaigns there is collateral damage and civilians die more often then not. It is a terrible thing, but atleast they are not the intended targets. The Palestinians say they want peace while praying for the end of the nation of Israel. They broker deals they have no plan on keeping.

Yasar Arafat only wants one thing, Israelis dead. He is nothing more than a terrorist himself. If he truly wanted peace with Israel then he would put a stop to the bombing. Since he has not one must only presume he is part of them.

Palestine and Arafat declare they want a state but yet the more they are given the more they want. In 1998 40% of the nation was given to Palestine and now they want more. Where would you have Israel move to? They are a people with a sea on one side and enemies on the other three. Where should they take refuge then? It would be much simpler for the Palestinians to be absorbed into Lebanon, or Jordan, or Egypt, etc.. The reason they cant be is because noone wants them. Yasar Arafat has been expelled from Jordan, Lebanon, and Tunisia. He was kicked out because he was nothing more than a terrorist, in the 70-80's and now in 2003 he is still a terrorist.

I would like to see peace in the region. God knows they have been fighting long enough. For this to happen Arafat need to be exiled yet again or be imprisoned or killed. Until this happens the cycle will continue.

Sorry for the rambling.

Adam White

02-14-2004, 08:47

Originally posted by Valhal
[B]Over the years the US has given Israel staggering amounts of aid. So we definitely consider them an important ally. But why is that? Not because of any cultural ties. If I my be non PC it is because it affords us a solid piece of ground in order to dominate the area if it comes down to that. The ME is of dire importance to the US and the world. We will never let the oil spigot be taken away from us. The Israelis make a perfect ally and supporting them like we do is very Machiavellian.
That's my attempt to distill the pure grain from the BS. The only credentials I have is that I kick ass at RISK.

Lets not keep score but lets just say that both sides have killed innocent lives quite frequently.

As for the Media, I guess it depends where you get your info. And I agree RL I don't know what to make out of Chomsky but he is passionate about this issue. I wish I was more erudite and had the time to look at both sides in depth.

Chomsky is a linguist who uses his position of tenure to play-act that he has some background or knowledge in international relations. You should read him not as a PhD (in anything relating to what he rambles about) , but as a anti-American with an axe to grind.

There have been numerous UN resolutions demanding that Israel go back to the 1967 borders and stop setting up colonies within the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Only 2 votes opposed the resolutions. Can you guess who?

There have been numerous resolutions on all sides of this issue. Israel believes they risk certain doom if they give up what little ground they have - they learned this lesson the hard way - in 1967 and 1973. I love how the Palestinian sympathisers love to tout these UN resolutions - and fail to mention that it was an all out ATTACK on Israel that altered those borders to begin with. Every act by Osrael was purely defensive, and done to insure its own survival.

Also, Israel would GLADLY go to those borders if they could have some guarantee of peace and survival. The issue that collapsed the last peace talks was when Egypt wanted to populate the ISRAEL controlled areas with more "Palestinians" than there were Jews in all of Israel- effectilvely meaning that - in the democracy that is Israel - there would be NO MORE ISRAEL.

Finally - those settlements in "Palestinian lands" brings up several points. The fact that they are even called "Palestinian" lands shows that Israel gave them to them - since after the first (1948) war - I would not have blamed them if they just claimed the whole country for themselves. Also, those settlements are ILLEGAL under ISRAELI law. The government is not establishing them. However, as a DEMOCRACY, they can't just tear down people homes without due process. You aren't going to see much support for tearing down homes when TERRORISTS are the ones most concerned about it.

NOBODY was living there before the settlements. This is akin to the whole debate about Israel. When the country was nothing but wasteland - nobody gave a shit. Every time Israel or Israelis try to build something nice - suddenly the Palestinians want to take it or blow it up. It is nothing but envy, pure and simple.

The Arab world sees that the US is acting hypocritically. Much of the bad sentiments they feel towards us has to do with the way we handle the Israeli Palestinian issue. Very one sided.

Egypt is one of the strongest financial and military supporters of Palestinians. Much of the recent activity in Gaza has been to cut off flows of hardware, in fact. We give MORE FOREIGN AID to Egypt than we do Israel. The only thing "one-sided" is the sources that act as if our foreign policy is "one-sided."

You may not realize it, but the press is very biased AGAINST Israel. Once you get your feet on the ground in that region - you wil begin to understand where the REAL hate and one-sided bias lies - and it sure aint on the Israeli side.

Doc

02-14-2004, 09:45

Valhal

02-14-2004, 12:06

Headstrong they might be, but if America threatens to take away the Billions in aid eventually it will have an effect. Israel does need that money, and who else will they get it from. No American President wants to go down that path because there is a strong Jewish lobby that will scream bloody murder, especially in an election year. Egypt does not get more aid than Israel, here are some links I found with a quick google search.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

http://www.ccmep.org/hotnews2/usforeignaid041402.html

There are militant Israeli's that have and will sabotage any peace efforts. So once again there is plenty of guilt and blame on both sides. As you said SC you are emotionally invested in this so maybe it is hard to look at this objectively. A good start might be to read Righteous Victims by Benny Morris. He is a Professor of History at Ben-Gurion University, Beersheba, Israel and this book is considered by historians as an objective and accurate accounting.

Arafat is a pig.

Adam:
You say that the Palestinians were given 40% in 1998 and not happy. Well it was all their land not to long ago and they have been systematically displaced. And it would not be easier for the surrounding Arab countries to absorb the Palestinians.

Chomsky is third on my list and was read with a grain of salt. When I study something I try to get all sides. I am not afraid to do so. I find it a good way to get to the heart of an issue. I noticed no one mentioned anything about Benny Morris.

I have no emotional ties to this issue, but I do see it as central to US security and strategy, and thus important to be knowledgeable on.

Outside of the US the Media is more sympathetic to the Palestinians. In the US I do not find that to be the case.

Adam your whole tone shows that you hold the entire Palestinian population in low esteem. Is that being fair? They are an oppressed people. They have been given the shaft numerous times, used as a political pawn by the bigger players around them, with the end result being that they lose and suffer.

There is truth in what Doc has said, but that is another long post.

There is strong pressure within Israel to wrest control of greater Zion as defined in biblical terms. That is why the settlers go into the West Bank. Manifest Destiny.

CRad

02-14-2004, 12:18

Originally posted by Valhal

You say that the Palestinians were given 40% in 1998 and not happy. Well it was all their land not to long ago and they have been systematically displaced.

When was it theirs exclusively? How long ago. Please explain that one to me.

Manifest Destiny.

What does that mean to you and how does it relate to Israel.

Surgicalcric

02-14-2004, 12:25

Originally posted by Valhal
...As you said SC you are emotionally invested in this so maybe it is hard to look at this objectively. A good start might be to read Righteous Victims by Benny Morris. He is a Professor of History at Ben-Gurion University, Beersheba, Israel and this book is considered by historians as an objective and accurate accounting...

Objectivity is not the issue. Its discussing a highly controversial issue among friends that is the problem.

I will pick up the book and give it a look through.

Thanks for the discussion.

Surgicalcric

02-14-2004, 12:32

Originally posted by Valhal
[B...You say that the Palestinians were given 40% in 1998 and not happy. Well it was all their land not to long ago and they have been systematically displaced. And it would not be easier for the surrounding Arab countries to absorb the Palestinians...[/B]

I suppose you think Israel should be wandering around in the wilderness once again. And explain how it would not be easier for the Palestinians to be absorbed into other Arabic nations in the region other than the fact noone wants them because they are troublemakers.

And thanks again.

Adam White

02-14-2004, 12:36

Valhal: I hold TERRORISTS in low esteem. I also hold people who twist the truth for political reasons in low esteem. What did I ever write that made you think I had some collective dislike for any entire ethnic group?

There are a shitload of Palestinians who live and work in Israel and manage just fine. There are no doubt many fine examples as well in the Palestinian controlled lands - though they are much more immersed in the anti-Israel propaganda - afetr all, hatred is what keeps their "leaders" in power.

Heck, there are PALESTINIANS in the Israeli parliament!

I did not talk about the 40% and 1998 issue - but I will continue. I challenge you to research who was living in much of this land 100 years ago. In most cases - nobody. In still other cases, a variety of people, from Jews, to Arabs, to Drews (did I spell that right?). Right now, the only area where all religions and groups are respected and tolerated is in ISRAEL!

There has always been disputes over this land - especially after the influx of Jewish immigration beginning in the late 19th century - and expanding significantly after WWII. In all of this, NOBODY was ever forcibly kicked out from ANYWHERE. The last people to have been forcibly kicked from that region were the Jews - which led to the diaspora - but even during that time, many Jews STILL lived in that land.

To try to settle things, the UN developed a partition plan - the Arabs refused it - and demanded ALL of the land for themselves. All the Jews wanted was a place to live in peace. They have been at a war for their very right to exist ever since. Every refugee is a refugee of a war STARTED and PROPAGATED by other Arab nations.

There are millions of displaced Palestinians living in camps in Egypt that have been there since the 1940s! How many refugees have come to the US and other countries since then? Are they living in camps or have they joined the society? There are more Jews in the US than in Israel. I don't have the numbers, but I bet a the numbers descended from WWII era immigrants are pretty damn close to the numbers of Palestinians STILL IN CAMPS in their "brother" nations. Where then, is the problem? Palestinians in Israel have more rights and freedoms than they do in any Arab country - yet you say they are "oppressed" by ISRAEL?

YOUR whole tone shows that you are committed to your warped view of things in that area - you clearly did not read or did not accept much of what I typed earlier. To even mention the extremists Jews is a joke - since Israel has and will again arrested and killed their own extremists, while the terrorists promote and idolize theirs. The difference is night and day. I would go so far at to say that the IDF actually has stricter ROE than US forces in most instances. You mention Israeli atrocities - if you had any CLUE of how ferociously the IDF slams down on soldiers who come even CLOSE to violating ROE you would not be talking such BS.

How many Israelis, Egyptians, Palestinians have you worked with? Have you ever been to that region? While Israeli school children embrace tolerance and discuss inclusiveness, Palestinian kids are inundated with messages of hate - and are taught and manipulated at a young age from some very slick, high production value hate-filledliterature and films- almost always published or produced outside of Israel (frequently Egypt). The shear amount of anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli propaganda in that region is sickening.

Is your entire opinion based on books of someone ELSE'S opinion? Open your eyes and you may be amazed at what you see.

If tomorrow the terrorists stopped killing, their would be peace in Israel and Palestinians would begin to live better. If tomorrow the Israelis stopped fighting, Israel would cease to exist by next week.

Valhal

02-14-2004, 12:56

I am the whipping boy.

I was going to respond but what's the use. What is evident is that this is an important topic and certainly a charged one. I am not here on PS to get into a political debate. I am here to learn how to be a Professional Soldier.

If anything the only thing I would like to get across is that oftentimes people choose one side without ever looking into another perspective. I could argue the Israeli side as well.

I urge you all to read Benny Morris's book.

Have a good weekend,
.... and happy Valentines Day.
Mark

Adam White

02-14-2004, 13:29

Originally posted by Valhal
I am the whipping boy.

I was going to respond but what's the use. What is evident is that this is an important topic and certainly a charged one. I am not here on PS to get into a political debate. I am here to learn how to be a Professional Soldier.

If anything the only thing I would like to get across is that oftentimes people choose one side without ever looking into another perspective. I could argue the Israeli side as well.

I urge you all to read Benny Morris's book.

Have a good weekend,
.... and happy Valentines Day.
Mark

Let me assure you, I am intimately familiar with the "Palestinian" side - actually the "Arab" side, since most of the debate and argument comes from OUTSIDE of Israeli borders - the Palestinians being essentially pawns in an age-old game. I regularly read the English language Arab press - and have read much of the pro-Palestinian literature. In fact, I have read enough to recgnize the same media smear tactics being used against the US that have for years been used against Israel. You see, the US and Israel have much more in common than many realize.

In addition, I - like no doubt most Americans - grew up being taught the party line that Israel was as much to blame as the terrorists for the current situation - in fact, I distinctly remember several classes in high school where (surprise, surprise) every one of us students supported the Palestinian point of view, while the teacher half-heartedly urged us to look at both sides (while clearly glad we had all been convinced he was right). Heck, it is all we were exposed to - you would have to have had external family or other such influences to believe anything else - and none of us did.

I am familiar with Dr. Morris - and, while I have not read the book you mention, I am familiar with his findings and research. I only mentioned Chomsky because you had specifically brought him up in the post I quoted.

Incidentally - you may be interested in this article about Dr. Morris from a pro-Palestinian website - seems his own attempts at intellectual honesty have now put him in negative favor with the self-proclaimed Palestinian intellegentsia: http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2379.shtml.

There is also a great picture there of a Palestinian refugee camp in Jordan - particularly interesting when you consider that over half of Jordan is of the same ethnic group - and the Palestinians STILL live in isolated camps. Jordan also does not want an independant West Bank on its border (of course, that goes against the image of "Arab brotherhood" so you will not hear that from the "Arab press."

CRad

02-14-2004, 14:19

Well WB, you are right and here are some figures to back up your argument. ;)
______________
Program Budget Analysis (1993-2002)
Following the signing of the Oslo accords in September 1993, the U.S. government provided $375 million between 1993 and 1998 through USAID to implement a development program in the West Bank and Gaza.

In 1999, the USAID fiscal year program budget was $75 million and in 2000 its level increased to $85 million. In 2000, the U.S. Congress approved an additional $400 million to add to the USAID West Bank and Gaza program to facilitate implementation of the Wye River Accords.

In 2001, USAID West Bank/Gaza's program budget remained at $85 million. In 2002, USAID received $75 million from Congress for its program. USAID funding for the West Bank and Gaza between 1993 and 2002 totaled approximately $1 billion. Of this amount, $540 million had been awarded through September 2000 and approximately $460 million will be awarded by September 30, 2002. All USAID projects are competitevely awarded.

Using the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Planning and International Cooperation's (MOPIC) comparative data, the U.S. is, by far, the highest bilateral donor in the West Bank and Gaza.

(Other countires may be more pro-palestine than we are but we are the ones putting our money where our mouth is.)
_____________
We do give more money to Israel but they buy from us.

THE USAID PROGRAM: The United States, acting through the USAID, will provide $720,000,000 in FY 2002 funds to Israel as a cash transfer. These funds will be used by Israel primarily for repayment of debt to the United States, including re-financed Foreign Military Sales debt, and purchases of goods and services from the United States. (kind of a nifty way of getting our money back) The U.S. State Department will continue to encourage Israeli reform to reduce government spending and deficits, to improve tax and public wage structures, to increase privatization, to reform labor markets, and to continue to liberalize its trade regime.

In FY 2003, the anticipated cash transfer will be $600,000,000.
OTHER DONORS: The United States is the largest bilateral donor to Israel.

Roguish Lawyer

02-16-2004, 04:29

C'mon, Hoepoe. I see you lurking. Post! LOL

cernunnos

02-16-2004, 10:50

RL Wrote ;

"Big wide paddle today with many subtopics:

1. Is Israel our closest or one of our closest allies, as it claims to be? Explain your answer, please.

2. Is it in our national interest to have a close relationship with Israel? Why or why not?

3. What Israeli policies, if any, do you object to? Why?

4. If you controlled our foreign policy, would you alter our relationship with Israel? If so, how?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First, my intro as requested ; I'm a student of int'l affairs/culture based on my background in int'l business. I've extensive experience dealing with Israelis and Arabs in business. As well as ancient history. I'm appreciative of the info I've gotten from these forums as well as good discussion. (Wow, a ME thread with no profanity! Has to be a record!)

Replies ;

1: Definately. But it's mostly one sided. Johnathan Pollard, USS
Liberty, how Israel got their nuke program underscore this
point. Our 'An enemy of my enemy philosophy' has drawbacks.

2: They're our only ally in this important region. But, the 'alliance'
is mostly one sided.

3: Zionism.

4: I'd threaten to cut off all aid till Israel complied with the UN's
primary directives regarding land boundries. I feel that the
UN is about the only 'agency' with a chance to mitigate the
situation. Unfortunately.

The two factions are divided strictly along the lines of racism and religous fanaticism. The matter will only be resolved by sticking to a non religous, legalistic initiative. I am convinced that history shows that religion never worked positively in a national context.

And it isn't just the Europeans that see it this way. Almost everybody other than the U.S. in the world sees the problem as plain, old fashioned, greed for land, religous fanaticism, and racism.

Israel is certainly the most sophisticated player in that arena and
so by default, only they have the capability to resolve the matter.

Maybe the fence is a good idea. I don't see how it'll work though,
since the 'Pals' are Israel's cheap labor force.

Ramble over.

NousDefionsDoc

02-16-2004, 11:00

Very interesting comments. Thank you for those.

I find this particularly interesting

The two factions are divided strictly along the lines of racism and religous fanaticism. The matter will only be resolved by sticking to a non religous, legalistic initiative. I am convinced that history shows that religion never worked positively in a national context.

So, in your opinion, the only way to resolve this is to "de-religiousize" and "de-racisize" the conflict - the conflict in which the opposing factions are two of the most religiously devout and racially oppressed groups in history? That are fighting over land considered by both the be sacred?

Doesn't sound promising.

cernunnos

02-16-2004, 11:48

No, not promising at all. What's needed (allegorically) is a solution
similar in sophistication to Solomon's mitigation of the child custody issue in the bible. 'each party get's half'. I love that one.

Quote from NDD ;
__________________________________________________ __
So, in your opinion, the only way to resolve this is to "de-religiousize" and "de-racisize" the conflict.
__________________________________________________ __

Well, yes.

What we consider to be 'civilized', is to submit our unresolvable
differences to an unbiased 3rd party for mitigation.

We might very well not like the resultant decision but the alternative 'unresolution' is much less desirable.

Most of the pro Israel support is based on biblical beliefs or
similar sentiment. Not much middle ground there.

Quote from NDD ;
__________________________________________________ __
the opposing factions are two of the most religiously devout and racially oppressed groups in history? That are fighting over land considered by considered by both to be sacred?
__________________________________________________ _

Very good point. I see it though, as a little more based on the
ownership of the land. The 'Pals' are defending their right to the territories based on inhabitance over the last 2000 years. Not so much 'for Islam.' That area has always been multicultural. Christians were there long before Islam.

Religion is being used as justification by the Israelis and the Pals suppporters. As religion has been, thoughout recorded history.

I believe in God btw. I'm just pointing out that religion has been,
'the politician's bitch' quite a bit in history.

Valhal

02-16-2004, 17:02

Originally posted by cernunnos
I believe in God btw. I'm just pointing out that religion has been,
'the politician's bitch' quite a bit in history.

I've never heard it put quite like that. LOL Sounds like a rap song.:D

CSB

02-16-2004, 19:57

Once you get your feet on the ground in that region - you wil begin to understand where the REAL hate and one-sided bias lies - and it sure aint on the Israeli side.

That's why I'm also waiting for Hoepoe to join the discussion.

Adam White

02-16-2004, 22:31

Originally posted by cernunnos What we consider to be 'civilized', is to submit our unresolvable
differences to an unbiased 3rd party for mitigation.

We might very well not like the resultant decision but the alternative 'unresolution' is much less desirable.

1948 UN Partition plan - we've all been there, done that. Only one side accepted the results - and has been at war defending its very right to exist ever since.

Most of the pro Israel support is based on biblical beliefs or
similar sentiment. Not much middle ground there.

I find that hard to believe. While admittedy there are some very religious-oriented arguments, the lack of religiousness in Israeli society is actually quite amazing. The IDF actually has to make special accomodations for the more observant Jews - and for the a long time the most conservative groups were exempt from military service, though I understand now there are actually units consisting only of the bearded and long-sideburned set - HOEPOE, speak up, man.

Within the US, religion is probably even less significant.

Admittedly it is kind of hard to read up on the 1967 and 1973 wars and not think that a certain divine power was siding with a certain non-Arab army.

cernunnos

02-17-2004, 08:59

Originally posted by Adam White \

1948 UN Partition plan - we've all been there, done that. Only one side accepted the results - and has been at war defending its very right to exist ever since.

__________________________________________________ _

In '48, the issue was definately Israel's survival and the UN was
in it's infancy.

I still think 3rd party arbitration is the only hope.

I know a few Sabras personally and so I know that the belief that the entire region belongs to them by 'devine right' is still a motivating force.
__________________________________________________-

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adam White \
I find that hard to believe. While admittedy there are some very religious-oriented arguments, the lack of religiousness in Israeli society is actually quite amazing. The IDF actually has to make special accomodations for the more observant Jews - and for the a long time the most conservative groups were exempt from military service, though I understand now there are actually units consisting only of the bearded and long-sideburned set - HOEPOE, speak up, man.

Within the US, religion is probably even less significant.

__________________________________________________ __

I mainly meant that support in the U.S. was based on the belief.
__________________________________________________ __

Admittedly it is kind of hard to read up on the 1967 and 1973 wars and not think that a certain divine power was siding with a certain non-Arab army.
__________________________________________________ _

Especially if you read Haim Herzog's book. I believe that if the U.S.
withdrew it's aid, the Israelis would find a way to end the conflict
quickly, before they meet economic ruin. Anyway, it should be their issue.

Basically, I just want my country out of the equation.

Noslack71

02-19-2004, 00:51

Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
Big wide paddle today with many subtopics:

1. Is Israel our closest or one of our closest allies, as it claims to be? Explain your answer, please.

2. Is it in our national interest to have a close relationship with Israel? Why or why not?

3. What Israeli policies, if any, do you object to? Why?

4. If you controlled our foreign policy, would you alter our relationship with Israel? If so, how?

Great topic, from what I have read thus far, it certainly inspires some interesting emotions.

1. That depends. I believe that Israel would sacrifice, or at least risk sacrificing the relationship with the US in order to survive (The Liberty and Pollard for example) I do not believe the US would feel it would ever be in a position where they would have to make that choice to survive as a nation. It is pretty difficult to have a close alliance with such a big difference in power.
2. Yes, if only to exert enough influence over them to keep from really kicking ass and screwing up the flow of Europes oil.
3. I think they are heading in a direction where they will basically have to practice a form of "Apartheid" in order to maintain the character of the country. They cannot give the Palestinians the vote and still exist. They cannot forcibly eject the Palestinians that are citizens of Israel and they will not have peace as long as the Palestinians exist. Our "closet ally" in the mideast is on the verge of becomming a segregated police state that discriminates (in the eyes of much of the world) against people based on race and religion. I am not really sure if this could have been avoided given the passions and personalities involved in the decision making.
4.) It seems that almost every administration since the 50's has tried to modify US policy in some manner in order to bring change. There are a finite number of changes we can make to our policy in hopes of bringing peace.
The one change we have never tried is intervention. I am not advocating that, it just seems that professional soldiers might consider the possibility. The big unasked question in this seems to be, if necessary,
Could the US military intervene militarily in Israel/Palestine to bring peace without causing great dissent in the ranks and throughout the US?
This seems to be unthinkable but, what lenghts would the US go to either to stop or end a real serious war in that region given the impact on our economic and political interest such a conflict would have? I do not have any answers, only questions.

sg1987

05-11-2007, 06:43

Bump. Any thoughts from members who came here since Feb 04?

3SoldierDad

05-22-2007, 12:49

Here are some thoughts...I do confess I am disposed toward Israel and am a judeophile. Also, I begin with the assumption that the GWOT began in Israel among the inventors of modern terrorism the Palestinians. If ever a people needed to be put down and pushed out, it is those Jordanian Arabs that people commonly refer to as Palestinians. Those folks need a good ol' fashioned spanking, or as my QP friend Willie says - those guys need a "not so friendly a@#-wupping..."

1. Is Israel our closest or one of our closest allies, as it claims to be? Explain your answer, please.

Yes, I believe Israel is our closest ally - We share similar values and desires to live and let live. Globally we are both hated for similar reasons. What are they? Among other reasons, we are both, relatively speaking, successful states - politically free, economically vibrant, and hopeful. This is simplistic, but both states are guardians of the dominant western culture. I believe Jews have made one of the largest contributions to the West's culture - this is my belief - I may be wrong; I frequently am.

2. Is it in our national interest to have a close relationship with Israel? Why or why not?

Yes, I do. They are the only free state in the Mideast. They are on the front lines of the battle against Islamic intolerance...Terrorism. Modern terrorism was an invention of the Palestinians - Or, I should say Jordanian Arabs. I think we should encourage Israel to take their gloves off with the blood sick Arabs and stop pussy-footing around and push every single Palestinian into Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon - every single civilian - the people have been poisoned - they've poisoned the kids, the women and the elderly. I see no innocent people among these Arabs...If the people keep violently agitating Israel - Israel should widen their borders to make an ever larger buffer for themselves until the Arab fascists are pushed unto the farthest reaches of the region. The best thing Israel could do is to stop trying to run a popularity contest among the world's nations and endeavoring to placate the West. It's ridiculous - they need to stand their ground or risk destruction. We need to get out of their way.

3. What Israeli policies, if any, do you object to? Why?

Some...But, the Jews have an attitude - and, for great reason. If Israel isn't for Israel than who will be? They are a lot more patient than we gringos. As a people both Jews and Israel just want to be left freak'n alone for-crying-out-loud. Moreover, I think the God of the universe is getting kind of pissed at the world's double-standard against those poor folks. We mess with them at our own peril. Darn, we need to be careful...

4. If you controlled our foreign policy, would you alter our relationship with Israel? If so, how?

Yep...I'd back-off and let them be. It scares me that Condelezza Rice, et. al. compelled Israel to leave Gaza to terrorists ... What a terrible mistake. Gaza is now a huge haven for terrorists - they're taking daily rocket fire. What would we do if this we're happening on our border? Stop pressuring these people to make peace with these thugs. Wow, it's crazy...We should permit the Israelis to take care of themselves - We could learn a thing or two. One last point - IMO, they don't need our help...However, down the road we may darn-toot'n need theirs.

That's my $0.02...

Three Soldier Dad - Chuck

The Reaper

05-22-2007, 13:15

One last point - IMO, they don't need our help...However, down the road we may darn-toot'n need theirs.

That's my $0.02...

Three Soldier Dad - Chuck

Chuck:

If you really believe that, you need to take a long hard look at which nation is the number one recipient of US foreign aid, and who gets the majority of FMS and IMET dollars. They also get special privileges, like all of the money up front on 1 Oct at the beginning of the Fiscal Year. Everyone else gets it as they spend it. The Israelis bank the foreign aid money and collect interest on it till they spend it later in the year. Check it out.

Without US fnancial and military support, Israel would have to make tremendous changes in the way they operate.

Not saying that the policy is right or wrong, just that you do not seem to have all of the facts.

TR

3SoldierDad

05-22-2007, 13:45

If you really believe that, you need to take a long hard look at which nation is the number one recipient of US foreign aid, and who gets the majority of FMS and IMET dollars.

I know that they receive tons of aid...I'm sure they think they need it. I don't think they do. I think this aid probably hurts them. They'd probably cry loud if they didn't get it - but, pain can be VERY good. I don't think the Egyptians or the Saudis or anyone in that region should get our military help. Perhaps, I'm naive...Who isn't naive when it comes to that area of the world?

They also get special privileges, like all of the money up front on 1 Oct at the beginning of the Fiscal Year. Everyone else gets it as they spend it. The Israelis bank the foreign aid money and collect interest on it till they spend it later in the year. Check it out.

As a people, they know how to handle cash...Who's fault is that? Should they apologize for working our system? Have they broken any laws? Nope...Why do certain folks being clever get us so worked-up?

Without US fnancial and military support, Israel would have to make tremendous changes in the way they operate.

Yep, they'd have to make changes - change is good. Hey, I'm not God -- I gave you my opinion.

Not saying that the policy is right or wrong, just that you do not seem to have all of the facts.

No I don't have all the facts - I never have. Hey, if we had to have all the facts to state our opinion this board would be almost empty, wouldn't it? ;-)

Three Soldier Dad...Chuck

P.S. Reaper, PS site is a wonderful resource - I see you're a frequent poster...Thanks for all the hard work.

The Reaper

05-22-2007, 14:26

Well, looks like you may not be happy with where your foreign aid is going. In 1994, the top nations receiving US aid were 1) Israel $3.0 B, 2) Egypt, $2.1 B, and 3) Russia, $1.4 B. In 2004, the situation had changed slightly with the Billion Dollar Aid Club line-up being 1) Iraq $18.44 B, 2) Israel $2.62 B, 3) Eypt $1.87 B, and 4) Afghanistan $1.77 B.

I will not attempt to explain the rationale of paying nations not to go to war with each other.

In case you were unaware, the 1973 gas crisis was largely because the US decided to stand by Israel and rushed air to air and anti-tank missiles to them when they ran short in the Seven Day War.

TR

x SF med

05-22-2007, 14:30

Chuck-
TR is not only a frequent poster, but a plankholder, and an amzing resource for information.

May I ask a favor of you? Please, if you could, tone down the type size and the color and the bolding, some of us may have deteriorating eyesight, but that last post was a bit over the top in in all three categories. Don't you think?

3SoldierDad

05-22-2007, 15:03

Chuck-
TR is not only a frequent poster, but a plankholder, and an amzing resource for information.

I saw TR averaged 8.8 posts per day and the content is excellent - that's certainly something. And, yes, with 21 years in the SF - A wonderful resource...

May I ask a favor of you? Please, if you could, tone down the type size and the color and the bolding, some of us may have deteriorating eyesight, but that last post was a bit over the top in in all three categories. Don't you think?

Dude, my pleasure - Sorry, I turn 48 in three weeks and my eyes are going, too - I deal with it differently, I guess ;) ...Does this look better?

3SoldierDad

05-22-2007, 15:40

Well, looks like you may not be happy with where your foreign aid is going.

Shoulder Shrug - Not really, but what can you do?

In 1994, the top nations receiving US aid were 1) Israel $3.0 B, 2) Egypt, $2.1 B, and 3) Russia, $1.4 B. In 2004, the situation had changed slightly with the Billion Dollar Aid Club line-up being 1) Iraq $18.44 B, 2) Israel $2.62 B, 3) Eypt $1.87 B, and 4) Afghanistan $1.77 B.

Believe it or not, with a little rounding, I know these figures, too. It doesn't change my views - In fact, it reinforces my views.

I will not attempt to explain the rationale of paying nations not to go to war with each other.

Whereas, I'm not an experienced soldier, I am a very experienced taxpayer...I understand the rationale. Nevertheless, the payola system doesn't seem to always work, does it? Folks say it takes a John to lay with a whore - Is that what we are? I hope not. It may be realpolitik, but it is shameful, nevertheless. I believe America must stop paying people to do what is right. Real violence early can be better than seeing explosive pent-up violence later. What kind of return are we having on our investments into the Mideast?...."paying them not to go to war."..Maybe, we should get a refund? I'm being facetious, of course - but half serious.

In case you were unaware, the 1973 gas crisis was largely because the US decided to stand by Israel and rushed air to air and anti-tank missiles to them when they ran short in the Seven Day War.

TR, IMO, it was a small price to pay considering letting Russia dominate the Mideast could have knocked us clear into a depression and perhaps WWWIII. However, unlike 1973 I don't think Israel needs an emergency weapons system from us in a pinch - They're now a regional power themselves. In fact, I heard we are now buying a vast amount of weapons from Israel.

Again, I say, leave Israel alone...

Forgive me if it sounds like I'm saying I have all the answers...I certainly don't. You can say - "Well, Chuck that's just your opinion." And you're right, but it is the only opinion that I've got - mine.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

hoepoe

05-22-2007, 15:45

Hello folks.

I can't believe i missed this back in '04.

We receive plenty aid from the US, both fiscal and moral support/political backing and military supplies (as well as the US veto when we need in in the UN.)

I believe we receive this first and foremost as it is in the US's interest to have a (semi) stable democratic ally in this wonderful region. Not necessarily only because the US loves us. This is ok "business is business"

What would happen without the US aid? I would be tough, very tough, but we would survive (we have no choice). Keep in mind Israel has a lot of home grown talent, technology and resources to offer. We do have our own military, our own strong economy and our own government,)

Are we appreciative of the US? Damn right we are! On independence day here we put Israeli flags on our cars (about A3 size off the window or hood). Some people ( few, but still) put US flags alongside them on the cars that day,(next year i'll get a pic)

If you ask the majority of Israelis what they think they will tell you how wonderful the US is, Israel in many ways is trying to mimic the US regarding "way of life". It cannot happen of course, but the average man on the street loves the US as more than an ally, more like a big successful cousin.

Bottom line, i believe we need the US and the US needs us. As long as that co-dependency exists at some level relations will continue to strengthen.

It's a dog-eat-dog world and Israel is clearly the smaller dog in this case, BUT the biggest friend of the US for miles.

Hoepoe

edited to add: If you're ever out here, go see Latrun, the IDF Armoured Corps museum.. It is also the landmark for allied forces, you will see standing high, 3 US flags alongside 3 Israeli flags, at an IDF museum,

x-factor

05-22-2007, 16:46

This is a great thread. Most of my opinions have already been voiced in detail so I'll try to be brief.

Before Oslo, the problem with the occupied territories was that Israel wanted to own them without governing them and so the Palestinians living on that land were completely stagnated politically and economically. They kept the land because they needed it for strategic depth and thats perfectly understandable given their situation at the time, but there was still a moral imperative on them to do right by the people on that land. The Israelis did very little of that for a long time. At that point, I would have said the blame division was more or less 50-50.

However, since Israel agreed in principle to actively pursue a two-state solution, I put the blame about 80-20 on the Palestinians. Does Israel continue to be overly harsh and even cruel? Yes, in someways, but, at the core of the issue is the rejection of Israel's right to exist. Thats the ultimate sticking point that holds all the other obstacles together. If the Palestinians really wanted peace based on an equitable division and an end to violence, they could have it in six months.

The only feasible solution is a clear break with all the historical recriminations: "whatever happened in the past is in the past, we're going to go forward based on the demographic facts of who is on what land today. We can keep hating and cursing each other after that, but at least we'll have a cold war with recognized borders and clear relationship of state-vs-state to work from." In that respect Oslo was a fair deal, struck in good faith and the Palestinians threw it back in Israel (and the US') face.

To paraphrase what someone else said...if Palestine laid down its arms, there'd be (at the very least) detente. If Israel laid down their arms, there'd be a slaughter.

...

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in the history of the development of the IDF and Israeli military policy, I strongly recommend the Knives, Tanks, and Missiles: Israel's Security Revolution by Cohen, Eisenstadt, and Bacevich.

3SoldierDad

05-22-2007, 18:28

No one surpasses the Palestinians for terrorist innovation - They are the Innovators of Terror...The entrepreneurs of extremism. They lead and rule in the Silicon Valley of Terror.

I submit that the Palestinians don't want a state - they will never accept a state and they will never recognize Israel and if they do it will be an absolute ruse.

It's simple - They want to destroy Israel. It is their entire fantasy for life...their reason for being.

Is it rational? - No. Can we understand it? - No. Do we need to? - No.
It simply is.

The situation won't change.
For Israel, it's either kill or be killed

We have no basis to critique their methods and means for self-defense. They live on the world's most dangerous real-estate and they have been much more restrained than America. How dare we presume to tie their hands.

One of these days the Palestinians are going to get WMD. Currently, they merely lack opportunity to get WMD and therefore lack opportunity to use WMD. The will and purpose are there, however. That's it...They simply lack opportunity. They live contiguous to Israel - and they will get WMD - probably chemical or biological - And they will hit Israel.

They invented hijackings, they invented event terrorism, suicide bombings, media terrorism and the first crude applications of IEDs...they will usher in what Colonel Thomas Hammes, USMC calls in his book The Sling and the Stone 5th Generation War (5GW)...Terrorist applied WMD.

What happens then? Israel will expunge Palestinians from the area.

What should we do? STFU and leave the Israelis alone.

Or, better said by George Bush, Senior prior to the Gulf War- We should watch and learn. Because we'll be witnessing our own future.

I don't fear for our future or for Israel's - I fear for Arabia's future. I truly do.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

x-factor

05-22-2007, 18:52

A little grist for the discussion mill...

Results pertaining to the peace process from a 2007 poll of Palestinians:

- A majority of 72% supports the Saudi, or Arab, initiative and 26% oppose it.

- 63% support and 35% oppose mutual recognition of Israel as the state for the Jewish people and Palestine as the state for the Palestinian people after the establishment of a Palestinian state and the resolution of all issues of conflict.

- A majority of 54% supports and 43% oppose a permanent settlement in which Israel withdraws from all occupied territories with the exception of settlement areas in less than 3% of the West Bank which would be subject to territorial exchange

- 43% support and 55% oppose a permanent settlement in which East Jerusalem would become the capital of the Palestinian state and Israel annexes Jewish neighborhoods and the Wailing Wall.

- 43% support and 54% oppose a permanent settlement in which the refugee problem is resolved based on UN resolution 194 but with restrictions on refugee return to Israel which would be subject to an Israeli decision.

- A majority of 71% support and 27% oppose the conduct of negotiations with Israel that would aim at establishing a Palestinian state in the Gaza Strip and about 80% to 90% of the West Bank to be followed by negotiations between the Palestinian state and Israel on a permanent settlement.

- A majority of 85% supports the current ceasefire in the Gaza Strip. Similarly, 84% support the extension of the current ceasefire to include the West Bank.

- 47% believe that Hamas’s goal is to reach a long term Hudna or truce with Israel, 24% believe its goal is to insure the continuation of the conflict and 22% believe its aim is to seek permanent peace with Israel.

Source: http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2007/p23e1.html

3SoldierDad

05-22-2007, 20:02

I don't fear for our future or for Israel's - I fear for Arabia's future. I truly do.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

I earned a graduate degree in Applied Linguistics back in the early 80s. I used to teach English to students in the Applied English Center at the University of Kansas...Several of my students were members and/or sympathizers of the Hezbollah from Lebanon and Syria, some were Palestinian radicals. I remember them arguing vociferiously with me and some of the other American students; they breathing their threats on the havoc that America would face if America didn't change its policies in the Mideast. I remember listening for quite a few hours of this day-after-day ....

One day I just blurted out -

"You know America is not easily provoked, but if the radicals you speak about ever really hurt us I think all the guilty cities and countries will be wiped out in a matter of weeks."

They got sober, but one laughed and said "How? " I said,

"We have a large and well equiped Army -- But, if some crazy country or radicals really hurt us, where we now feel like we are fighting for our survival - We have lots of nuclear weapons and we've used them already when we felt threatened. We're a violent country when provoked - we'd use them again if someone ever succeeds in really hurting us - If it were kill or be killed - We'd wipe out whole populations that sought to do us harm. We would reach them with fire..."

They all became quiet...

I had a similar conversation in Paris with a French Hotel owner in 2003. He sneered that the U.S. better be careful cause the world was sick of their hegomonic behavior - "Some day you're going to wake up and someone is REALLY going to rock you." This condescending, arrogant frog really got my goat - He said this as if the bad news would be limitted to America. Same thing as with the Arabs back in 1983, only this time I kind of snapped. I said (this is a close paraphrase),

"You know we're a pretty nice people, and we can accept that people don't like us, but if someone ever succeeds in really hurting us - - I mean hurts us bad, like we fear for our very survival, like you say "they rock us" - We'll do more than rock their world - we'll shatter it like a clay pitcher - whole regions will go to glass. We got nukes, lots of them, and we know where the buttons are. Americans are violent - And, you better watch what you say - we're nice - but, we're listening. If anyone ever hits us, we're coming after the talkers first - guilty or not. This may be revolting to you - But, Americans will skip the idea of hurting others when its survival is threatened and go right to the application of extreme violence. It won't be a hegomonic event - it will be a liquidation event."

When provoked, and when threatened, America has the capacity for some uncommon violence...and the capacity to project uncommon violence.

I fear for Arabia's future. I truly do. The Persians, too...Their radicals are doing a lot of talking. Very dangerous.

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck

3SoldierDad

05-22-2007, 20:41

A little grist for the discussion mill...

Results pertaining to the peace process from a 2007 poll of Palestinians:

Source: http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2007/p23e1.html

A fly in the ointment makes the perfumers oil stink, says Solomon. IMO, there is more than just one fly in those rosy stats. And, Palestine has more than a few flies...What I mean is - one black spot turns the canvas gray - the enemy of Israel is dark. The survey seems more optimistic than any stats I've ever seen - Yet, it's still full of large swaths of folks who despise Israel - The overwhelming fact is that Hamas was elected by 70% of the Palestinians - A group that advocates for terrorism and doesn't recognize Israel. For a whole different set of facts see Barry Rubin at Meria Journal http://meria.idc.ac.il/staff.html

I'm sad to say - I don't believe Palestinians can make peace. I've given up on the notion. The majority would have to have a biblical-like road to Damascus conversion...I just don't believe it. The people have been poisoned - the kids and the families have been poisoned. Hate has been conceived. It's been drunk down to the dregs.

Does that mean you go out to hunt down the rabid Palestinian dog? No, not necessarily - But, you do load your gun this time and don't run and don't negotiate and don't feed the animal. And, be ready when he comes for your neck to shoot him dead.

I think everyone would want to have hope against hope that things could change, but you'd be playing russian-roulette with Israel's survival - And, the eventual survival of the West and even the survival of the world as we know it...The game is on people. If just a few Palestinian citizens among those 25% of the population that despise Israel (more like 70% or 90%) pulls the trigger on WMD - all the Palestinians are going to have to be dealt with - expunged. If I spit in your Margarita, you'll have to pour the entire drink down the drain....Even though only 1% spoiled the entire glass. That's reality in our fallen world.

I'm older than most on this board - Maybe, I'm just a dour cynic.

Wow, I would love to be wrong!

Three Soldier Dad...

All the best, Chuck