View Full Version : New badge for the Army
Army announces new badge
A staff report
WASHINGTON - The U.S. Army on Friday announced a new badge for soldiers who engage in active ground combat, according to a news release from the Pentagon.
The Close Combat Badge will provide special recognition to soldiers who are trained and employed in direct combat missions, similar to Infantry and Special Forces.
The Army will award the CCB to armor, cavalry, combat-engineer and field-artillery soldiers or corresponding specialties recognized as having a high probability to routinely engage in direct combat.
In March, the Army expects to release details about the badge. The badge should be available this fall through unit supply and also for purchase in military-clothing sales stores, the Pentagon said.
NousDefionsDoc
02-12-2005, 17:57
Isn't that was the CIB is for? Wonder what it looks like?
t-rex2025
02-12-2005, 18:01
From Black Berets to a new Combat Badge. I wonder what's next!
I wish I could remember the 1LT's name. He came to us by way of the Q course from 18th Airborne Corps. This was shortly after the Grenada operation. He had a CIB and a Corps patch. We said that that was a neat trick, how'd he swing that.
He told us flat out that he hopped a 130 haulin' ammo out of Pope that was going down there. He said he came back to Bragg the same day, walked into his S-! and turned in the manifest. Bingo, instant CIB and patch. He wasn't embarrassed at all about it and said that all the LTs up there were doing it. He was a little twitchy anyway and driffed off after his team time never to be seen again.
The CCB will become somewhat like the comabt patch, get of the transport and it's yours.
Pete
CommoGeek
02-12-2005, 18:21
It will be just like the CIB: some guys will get it for doing good things, some will get it just for showing up in the AOR.
Deeds, not badges, matter.
Isn't that was the CIB is for? Wonder what it looks like?
NOPE!! The CIB was only for infantry. An exception was made for SF. People have been whining for years saying "It ain't fair". IMNSHO it cheapens the CIB and CMB.
But what the hell. I hear the Army is in contact with the Girl Scouts to adapt their sash to the Army Class "A: uniform to accomodate all of the badges and ribbons. After 15 years I can still count all of my ribbons (U.S.) on one hand. :mad:
NousDefionsDoc
02-12-2005, 19:28
Ah sure you're right Terry. I didn't read the part about the others gettin' it. Well, maybe this will put the CIB back up on it's pedestal where it belongs.
Maybe the CREMF badge is next.
Maybe the CREMF badge is next.
There is enough of them. How about a strap with a wreath for strap hangers. :D
brewmonkey
02-13-2005, 13:24
I wish I could remember the 1LT's name. He came to us by way of the Q course from 18th Airborne Corps. This was shortly after the Grenada operation. He had a CIB and a Corps patch. We said that that was a neat trick, how'd he swing that.
He told us flat out that he hopped a 130 haulin' ammo out of Pope that was going down there. He said he came back to Bragg the same day, walked into his S-! and turned in the manifest. Bingo, instant CIB and patch. He wasn't embarrassed at all about it and said that all the LTs up there were doing it. He was a little twitchy anyway and driffed off after his team time never to be seen again.
The CCB will become somewhat like the comabt patch, get of the transport and it's yours.
Pete
Right after Just Cause we heard a similar story about a Maj from the 7ID doing the very same thing to ger his CIB.
If I have read the req's for this new badge it is only going to certain MOS's and then they have to have been through the 2 week ground combat course and have been on patrol in the streets if Iraq/A-Stan. It does not look like this is just a "you were there" like the SSI-FWTS.
mffjm8509
02-13-2005, 16:27
The Task Force supporting me in my AO is a Field Artilery TF. It consist of 2 FA companies that are used as infantry and 1 company/battery of support/fire support. These guys routinely patrol mounted and dismounted in search of contact with the insurgents. They perform about 80% of the security/cordon forces and 100% of QRF for my DA missions while advising my Iraqi counterparts. This task force has 1 platoon of infantry, all of which recieved a CIB for thier tour here. The Artillery guys that worked side by side with this infantry platoon did not recive a CIB, although performed the same duties.
I wear a CIB as well and dont want that to be freely handed out. The guys supporting my operations here, do the job of infantry but dont quailify for a CIB. I think this type of award, if given for troops commited to ground combat while not qualified as infantrymen is warranted. Sure it will be abused, but so has the CIB in the past, both in my time and most of yours. Honestly, I know several guys that still wear their EIB because it signifies more to them having earned it than simply beign awarded one for being in theater as an 11 series.
:munchin
mp
mffjm8509 and all: This has been an interminable battle since the beginning. For some the CIB/EIB have a meaning while for others it was and probably still is just another ticket career officers need punched for advancement. A new badge will probably do nothing to change that.
Just for fun, y'all may want to research the full criteria for awarding combat badges. It entails more than being just being in the AO.
As I said before, there are so many badges and ribbons now that they get lost in the crowd. I saw a picture the other day and the individual had four rows of ribbons. The highest was an ARCOM!! :rolleyes:
What does it look like? I have seen the Nazi's CCB. It required hand-to-hand combat. It has a grenade & a bayonet emblazoned on it.
Ok, so conversely, if a grunt patches up his wounded buddy, will he get a CFMB or equivalent future badge? I mean, he's doing the job of a medic, right? Or, how about if a grunt calls for fire on an enemy position, will he be awarded a 13 SMOS?
scubasam
02-14-2005, 12:17
Why don't we make a "combat action ribbon" like the Corps? Its nice and K.I.S.S. and for the Inf and Medic types they get the extra recognition that they deserve. And, hopefully, it would cut down on the awarding of the CIB when the true regs are not met (can't quote it right of the top of my head but I think you know what I mean).
Yes, I know its another ribbon to be added to all the fruit salad, but it's one that I believe is "earned" and would cut down on the silver shinny crap that will be showing up on all the uniforms if this goes through.
mffjm8509
02-14-2005, 18:19
Ok, so conversely, if a grunt patches up his wounded buddy, will he get a CFMB or equivalent future badge? I mean, he's doing the job of a medic, right? Or, how about if a grunt calls for fire on an enemy position, will he be awarded a 13 SMOS?
I think you're missing my point. There are guys here, that reguardless of school trained MOS are doing the job of an infantryman day in and day out. They are not simply reacting to contact IAW BD2. I've worked with a couple of platoons here that because of thier experience I'd take over an infantry platoon in a second. These guys are actively persuing and closing with the enemy, and not assigned the 11B MOS. They are not by regulation authorized to recieve, nor are they being reccomended for the CIB. However those 13 series on my FOB that have held an 11 series MOS DO quailify for the CIB due to how the regulation reads, and thier direct role in ground combat.
Do you think an 11C, 11H, any 18 serires, or perhaps an Infantry staff officer is entiteled to a CIB just for service here? They are getting them. I dont knock those positions of course, but there is certainly a difference between those guys and the guys deploying out of a BFV in response to contact.
If you like when I get back you can come by the team room and we'll go through the company with me pointing out guys wearing CIBs that have never fired a round or had to react to contact.
I never said to award these guys the CIB, I simply bring up the fact that there are soldiers here, that are doing the job of the infantryman simply because we do not have enough infantrymen to go around. An award of similar status to non 11 series MOSs that recognizes those individuals for thier role in ground combat is not excessive.
just my .02, and I still love you brother!
mp
mmfjm says: Do you think an 11C, 11H, any 18 serires, or perhaps an Infantry staff officer is entiteled to a CIB just for service here? They are getting them. I dont knock those positions of course, but there is certainly a difference between those guys and the guys deploying out of a BFV in response to contact.
If you like when I get back you can come by the team room and we'll go through the company with me pointing out guys wearing CIBs that have never fired a round or had to react to contact.
NO!! However that is the same argument that has been put forth since the beginning of time. Ifr they are getting them that's a different problem. Rather than take me around, if you are so vehement about it, document it and point them out to the IG -- presuming he also doesn't wear a CIB. :eek: :eek:
There are instances everyday of individuals breaking or bending the rulles. That doesn't make the rules bad. If they want a badge, fine -- Hell everyone has a couple or three these days to go with their berets. How about a combat spoon? :D :D
I think you're missing my point... just my .02, and I still love you brother!
mp
Sorry, I wasn't trying to snipe at you with my post if it came across that way. I do see what you're saying, and you certainly do have a good point. I see guys where I work (18 series, no less) sporting CIBs that never left the wire, but because they were within a km of a couple hip shot mortar rounds, they got it.
While the non-11s are doing a great job for you currently, after their tour in Iraq they will most likely revert to their old MOS and duty description. The infantry guys have chosen an MOS that will include the expectation of closing with and destroying the enemy for the duration of their careers, not just for a year or so.
I dunno; perhaps when they get ready to leave they should just be put in for an award reflecting that they were working outside their MOS, and call that even.
Smokin Joe
02-15-2005, 02:20
Why doesn't the Army give the non-11 series who are doing the 11 series job (like mffjm8509's troops) a temp desgination as an 11 series so they do qualify for the CIB.
I have a friend who was an 11B and served in the 1st of the 509th (OPFOR at Polk) he did so much 13F work that he got another designation as a 13F. I'm thinking if the Army can or will do this in a peace time Army why not go the other way with the 13 series (or other series) that are doing an 11 series job during war time? Of course this would probably open the flood gates for every swinging Richard to get a CIB.
Just a thought.
It won't change much. The abuses will continue regardless of the badge. Unqualified personnel will get rubber stamped. Personally, I agree with the jaeheads. Everyone is an infantry man first. You see the same thing in rubber stamped ARCOMs, BS,s etc. The level of the award can be determined by rank, duty assignment and who you know.
It won't change much. The abuses will continue regardless of the badge. Unqualified personnel will get rubber stamped..
What you get also depends on the orders.
After the first Gulf war you had to be stationed in the area to get the SWASM and SSI. Any one who went to Camp Doha or the general area TDY got nothing.
That did not apply to joint operations and guys with "Joint" orders would float in now and again, get the medal and SSI then head state side.
Well, on one of our many trips there the "J" guys and some secret squirrels needed an SF company to do some of the set up, assest with the OP and then clean up for them. Our company got tagged for the job. Our battalion (-) was over there but just because of the way the orders were written anybody in our company without it got the SSI while the guys in the next company did not.
Oh well, being a "J" guy does have it's perks evry now and again.
Pete
Pete and all:
I heard of people who flew in and out of and even over RVN just long enough to collect combat pay.
I remember once when a young Lt. was sent to me to strap hang on an operation. The idea was to give the staff and faculty some first hand experience of what it was like on the ground. It really put the teams at risk assigning unknown and untried personnel to accompany us. The young Lt. came panting up to me and said:
" Sarge, I sure hope we make contact."
I ask: "Why?'
He replies: "So I can get my CIB."
I replied: "Sonny, this is recon and if we make contact it will be because we screwed up. " I said a few other things and sent him packing but they may be unprintable. :D
brownapple
02-15-2005, 08:03
The Wehrmacht had only a few awards. The Iron Cross in its various renditions, parachute wings, the mountain troop insignia, the Infantry Combat Badge and the Closs Combat Badge. Anyone could qualify for the latter, it simply showed that the wearer had closed with and fought the enemy at bayonet and hand grenade range. It didn't degrade from the Infantry Combat Badge which indicated a professional Infantryman who had seen the elephant. Personally, I think the German Army had it right. The CCB will recognize those who have closed with the enemy and the CIB will continue to recognize those who have done so as Infantrymen.
mffjm8509
02-15-2005, 08:23
Why doesn't the Army give the non-11 series who are doing the 11 series job (like mffjm8509's troops) a temp desgination as an 11 series so they do qualify for the CIB.
Just a thought.
I'm not advocating the award of the CIB to non 11 series MOS. What we were origionaly talking about was a newly proposed Close Combat Badge taht would be awarded to those individuals that are in direct combat and not qualified in an infantry MOS.
Didnt mean to get you all stirred up Terry. My comments about dropping by the team room were for Razor, who does visit us from time to time and I think I still owe him lunch.
I have gained a lot of respect for some of these guys, and in the long run I'd like to see them rewarded in some way for thier contribution. Make it a ribbon like the Marines or whatever. Sure it will get abused, but the reward system always has been. But for those few guys that deserve it, it may mean something.
Hell they even have a sapper tab now......for a school that 90% of all airborne troops that attend pass. I thought that was a bit much...........
mp
Smokin Joe
02-15-2005, 09:02
I'm not advocating the award of the CIB to non 11 series MOS. What we were origionaly talking about was a newly proposed Close Combat Badge taht would be awarded to those individuals that are in direct combat and not qualified in an infantry MOS.
Didnt mean to get you all stirred up Terry. My comments about dropping by the team room were for Razor, who does visit us from time to time and I think I still owe him lunch.
I have gained a lot of respect for some of these guys, and in the long run I'd like to see them rewarded in some way for thier contribution. Make it a ribbon like the Marines or whatever. Sure it will get abused, but the reward system always has been. But for those few guys that deserve it, it may mean something.
Hell they even have a sapper tab now......for a school that 90% of all airborne troops that attend pass. I thought that was a bit much...........
mp
Roger that.
My comments about dropping by the team room were for Razor, who does visit us from time to time and I think I still owe him lunch.
Other way around, brother--I owe you lunch and many beers when you get back. Thanks for keeping the pointy end sharp!
tyrsnbdr
02-15-2005, 11:03
Every soldier wants something to wear on his/her uniform, until they realize that everybody else was the same award or badge. Then the attitude changes to "we'll, they're giving this out to everybody. It no long has any meaning..." BS. I say allow all soldiers how are "out there in the Sh**" have an award to say that they're doing what had to be done. The Army shouldn't give them CIB's, but the CCB to say they're doing the similiar things. A 25U RTO for a IN Company is out there humping with the rest of them, shoot at the same bad guys and doing pretty much ths same job as a 11B, but he is also keeping his comms through the mission. He deserves the same reconition of a job well done.
just my $.02...
I agree with Greenhat's statement.
I am merely saying that this will in no way stop rubber stamping and ticket punching. That will continue regardless. Any of you who may have stood the monthly A&D ceremonies at the monthly payday revelies during the RVN era can atgtest to that fact. Some deserved more, some deserved what they got, and some deserved less or nothing. It's a fact of life. All I can say is that unless you have first hand knowledge that a particular award was not deserved you must presume it was and respect that individual.
I remember the first SF trooper to get the MOH in Vietnam. CPT Donlon was the team leader and there was a lot of BS controversy over whether he deserved the medal more than others on the team. Today Col. Donlon is a much respected member and benefactor of the SF community.
Airbornelawyer
02-15-2005, 15:04
What does it look like? I have seen the Nazi's CCB. It required hand-to-hand combat. It has a grenade & a bayonet emblazoned on it. little extra historical background:
Germany
The Infanterie-Sturmabzeichen (Infantry Assault Badge, or IAB) was instituted on December 20, 1939 for infantry soldiers who participated in ground combat. It was a silver badge. A bronze version was instituted on June 1, 1940 for Panzergrenadiers and motorized infantry soldiers.
The Panzerkampfabzeichen (Tank Battle Badge, but commonly called the Panzer Assault Badge, or PAB) was also introduced on December 20, 1939 (though there had been tank combat badges in WW1 and the Spanish Civil War). A bronze version was instituted on June 6, 1940 for crews of other armored fighting vehicles who saw ground combat (assault gun, armored car and half-track crews).
The Wehrmacht recognized that there were numerous categories of soldiers who saw combat but did not qualify for the IAB and PAB, so the Allgemeines-Sturmabzeichen (General Assault Badge, or GAB) was added on January 1st, 1940. The main category of soldiers to qualify were combat engineers, combat medics and reconnaissance, artillery, antitank (Panzerjäger), and anti-aircraft units in infantry and armored units.
These were the classes of awards that would correspond to the CIB/CMB and the new Army award. The Nahkampfspange (Close Combat Clasp, or CCC) was a more narrowly focused badge. It required a minimum number of days spent in close combat - not necessarily "hand-to-hand" but, as one Waffen SS veteran described it to a friend of mine, close enough to see the whites of the enemies' eyes. There were three grades - gold, silver and bronze - depending on the number of days of close combat seen. It was not limited to infantry soldiers, but because of the criteria most recipients were soldiers serving in infantry units a battalion level and below. But, for example, battalion and company mortarmen, who could receive the IAB, would not likely qualify for the CCC.
The Luftwaffe added its own Ground Combat Badge (Erdkampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe) on March 31, 1942, and on November 3, 1944 added its own Close Combat Clasp (Nahkampfspange der Luftwaffe) and Tank Battle Badge (Panzerkampfabzeichen der Luftwaffe). Previously, Luftwaffe ground troops, including paratroopers, would have received the Army/Waffen SS awards described above.
United States Army
The CIB was established in World War Two as a doodad to attract people to what was otherwise a not-very-popular MOS. The Air Medal had been established in 1942 for essentially the same purpose, as airmen's morale was pretty low due to high casualties on bombing raids. The Air Medal, though may have led to the creation of the CIB on October 27, 1943. It certainly led to the Bronze Star being established on February 4, 1944: in arguing for the Bronze Star, Gen. Marshall stated "the fact that the ground troops, Infantry in particular, lead miserable lives of extreme discomfort and are the ones who must close in personal combat with the enemy, makes the maintenance of their morale of great importance. The award of the Air Medal have had an adverse reaction on the ground troops, particularly the Infantry Riflemen who are now suffering the heaviest losses, air or ground, in the Army, and enduring the greatest hardships."
Until 1948, award of the CIB also gave one a $10 monthly stipend.
After the CIB was introduced, other branches argued in favor of their own badges, but a War Department review board just after the war ruled these out. Despite this, unofficial versions of a Combat Artilleryman's Badge, a Combat Tanker's Badge and a Combat Cavalryman's Badge showed up. In some cases, these were made by simply pinning a piece of branch insignia on top of a CIB and repainting the blue field in the appropriate branch color, but others involved making a badge and replacing the rifle of the CIB with crossed cannons (on a red background), a tank (on a green background) or crossed sabers (on a yellow background).
The main argument for keeping only the CIB (and CMB) and not approving the others was to maintain the CIB's prestige. The CIB had earned that prestige because of the particularly harrowing nature of infantry combat in World War Two (though I think I might have preferred crawling through the hedgerows to driving around in a Sherman waiting for a Tiger to light me up like a matchbox).
These alternative badges, like their German analogs, would not have been what the Army appears to be envisioning with this CCB. This CCB seems closer to the German CCC, in that while not limited to infantry, it requires infantry-type close combat. As Army official said, the badge "will be presented only to eligible soldiers who are personally present and under fire while engaged in active ground combat" and whose units "close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires."
As Army official said, the badge "will be presented only to eligible soldiers who are personally present and under fire while engaged in active ground combat" and whose units "close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires."
HEHEHE!! Wanna Bet? :D :D
__________________
I find this an especially interesting topic because it seems like just about everyone is of one opinion, yet somehow it always goes the opposite way. That is, the Army is continually adding decorations and badges, to the extent that you find one-term non-veterans with more ribbons and badges than a man of days past who jumped into Holland and was stuck in for the duration. Yet, when you bring up the issue, everyone says that we have too many, and that things have gotten out of hand.
How do you reconcile these two facts? From what I've seen, it's mostly a matter of "well, yeah it's bad, but I'm the exception, and I deserve this," with a sideline of "if it makes them feel good, give it to 'em," and a little bit of actual lying/cheating (see the earlier poster's comment about flying into Vietnam once per month to be eligible for combat pay). It's a slippery slope.
From my own perspective, I lean toward the idea of keeping the non-combat qualification badges in the personnel file, and reserving the uniform for actual combat decorations. You do something worthy of decoration? Show it. If you did your job, good on you--your reward is your paycheck.
Quote:
As Army official said, the badge "will be presented only to eligible soldiers who are personally present and under fire while engaged in active ground combat" and whose units "close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires."
The later part of the above quote is what I find interesting.
"Ther I was, sitting in the Baghdad Dairy Queen while my unit was kicking ass. Where my CCB?"
Don't laugh about the DQ. There was one at the SFOB in Nha Trang. :D
Airbornelawyer
02-15-2005, 18:52
Quote:
As Army official said, the badge "will be presented only to eligible soldiers who are personally present and under fire while engaged in active ground combat" and whose units "close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires."
The later part of the above quote is what I find interesting.
"Ther I was, sitting in the Baghdad Dairy Queen while my unit was kicking ass. Where my CCB?"
Don't laugh about the DQ. There was one at the SFOB in Nha Trang. :D
I was summarizing by putting the two quotes together.
The latter quote was meant to categorize the units whose personnel would be eligible, i.e., those whose primary mission is to close with and kill the enemy. The former referred to the personnel within those units. Unless you are assaulting the Dairy Queen to stop the flow of ice cream to the enemy, you wouldn't be personally present and under fire.
It appears that they are trying to write the criteria in such a way as to capture the FA guys conducting patrols that mffjm8509 describes while excluding a unit, such as a maintenance company, that may get caught in a firefight every once in a while but is not tasked with the primary mission of engaging in close combat.
If elements of that maintenance company were retasked for dismounted patrols and saw the requisite amount of ground combat, then the soldiers who performed that mission (but not everyone in the company) could be eligible.
One thing I have noticed about some of the guys who were the biggest studs with tons of badges and even more experiance. Especially the SF guys I have been around. Most the time they wore pretty sterile uniforms, US Army/nametapes maybe jumpwings or just a tab.
Just an observation.
Well AL. I personally think that even if their mission wasn't to close with the enemy, the soldiers in Jessica Lynche's maintenance company should qualify for the CCB.
What 504PIR says is so true. Back in the sixties most fell out with nothing more than CIB and Jump wings. Those said it all. The exception was when it specified "All awards and decorations" and even then some resisted. I'll never forget a time they made a big fuss over an NCO veteran of WWII and Korea as well as Vietnam. He got pissed and wore every damned award he had and then embarrassed the shit out of the butt heads. :D
Airbornelawyer
02-16-2005, 12:25
Well AL. I personally think that even if their mission wasn't to close with the enemy, the soldiers in Jessica Lynche's maintenance company should qualify for the CCB.
What 504PIR says is so true. Back in the sixties most fell out with nothing more than CIB and Jump wings. Those said it all. The exception was when it specified "All awards and decorations" and even then some resisted. I'll never forget a time they made a big fuss over an NCO veteran of WWII and Korea as well as Vietnam. He got pissed and wore every damned award he had and then embarrassed the shit out of the butt heads. :D
On the former point, I couldn't disagree more.
The CIB, and any non-infantry specific-award the Army is now considering, is not simply an "I just happened to get shot at" award. There are other forms of recognition for that. Frankly, that is what the Shoulder Sleeve Insignia-Former Wartime Service is supposed to be for, but like many awards the criteria have been so watered down that soldiers far from the battlefield are eligible (one requirement is that "[t]he units must have actively participated in, or supported ground combat operations against hostile forces in which they were exposed to the threat of enemy action or fire, either directly or indirectly."). Tightening the combat patch requirements to be closer to those of the Navy and Marine Corps' Combat Action Ribbon ought to be considered.
The CIB's purpose was to raise the morale of people who had a job that day-in and day-out required them to close with and kill the enemy. As 600-8-22 notes, the CIB was "an award which would provide special recognition of the unique role of the Army infantryman, the only soldier whose daily mission is to close with and destroy the enemy and to seize and hold terrain. The badge was intended as an inducement for individuals to join the infantry while serving as a morale booster for infantrymen serving in every theater."
I would not be averse to adopting the approach taken by the Wehrmacht with regard to the Nahkampfspange. While not limited to soldiers with the primary mission of close combat, so it would not exclude CSS soldiers outright, the Nahkampfspange did have a requirement of a minimum number of actual days spent in close combat, and had higher grades for more time in the fight (unlike the CIB/CMB, whose second and third awards represent different conflicts). The requirement was reduced (though not by much) if the soldier was WIA.
The soldier's records documented how many close combat days he had been in, and this was not the same as days in combat or in a combat zone. For retroactive awards (the Nahkampfspange was established on November 25, 1942 and made retroactive to June 22, 1941), credit was given for total amount of time where actual combat days weren't known, but the Germans weren't especially generous. Service in the Balkan and North African theaters counted for less than service on the Russian Front, and eight months of combat service counted for 5 days of close combat (12 months=10 days, 15 months=15 days). 15 days was the minimum for the clasp in bronze.
As for the general comments about badges, I agree that lots of QPs and the like are more modest about their own badges. In IOBC, a 3rd Group buddy of mine wore only CIB and SF tab, and sometimes not even those, until the cadre demanded he appear in "proper uniform" (i.e., with all his hooah badges). As has been noted in other contexts, SF also get fewer medals. But the focus of these things is generally not the soldiers who are already among the most highly motivated.