View Full Version : Trust in the Military
Roguish Lawyer
11-30-2022, 18:21
I think many of you will appreciate this editorial in tomorrow morning's Wall Street Journal: https://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-are-losing-trust-in-the-military-reagan-institute-survey-11669848047?st=2ewbpgu70rd9x55&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
I understand and agree with them reference thier concerns.
Badger52
11-30-2022, 21:51
From strategic considerations (as nations are amused by us) to clear deltas in tactical capability, to the social impacts of families with a history of martial service advising their kin not to join... we've discussed this over/under/sideways/down in these pages. The article, coming as it does from the WSJ, will get some attention and is right on, in my view.
That said, I don't see the current Pentagon flack, or Kirby now at NSC or Karine Jean-Pierre being asked serious questions about it by anyone. Nah... Jennifer Griffin is too invested in her access at the Pentagon, so they're probably safe. Kirby will simply lie, while smiling at the reporter in condescending fashion, and KJP will flip through her 11.5 pound binder while her eyelids increase their nervous flicker rate to 680 fpm.
Good article, a rock thrown against a really heavy windshield.
The Reaper
11-30-2022, 21:53
Good assessment!
TR
an interesting tidbit to the article: when the Navy ended photos going to promotion boards, the promotion rate for minorities actually FELL. So that proved their theory that photos were being used to discriminate....; however, they were discriminating against WHITE people. That is why the Navy is considering going back to using photos in the boards. We had a great discussion about that yesterday with one of my guys who is a Naval Commander in the Reserves.
Of course the Army is going full speed ahead with its diversity, equity, and inclusion bullshit and stopping the practice of photos going into boards. (insert nose-picking GIF 'here').
Badger52
12-01-2022, 09:44
FNC's Dana Perino & Bill Hemmer dug into it for 5 minutes with Gillian Turner at Pentagon & a (lady) "fellow" from the Reagan Institute, including some lies before Congress from the current (ahem) SECDEF.
This'll go away in a week, as Tim Cook swears he never said the Twitter app would be banned from the Apple Store and more are concerned with the outcome of the Georgia runoff. At News-Day+10 insert new shiny object.
I'd say trust eroded when a seated CJCS admittedly communicated with Chinese forces in a way that completely undermined the seated POTUS regarding matters of national security..
some might even call that high treason - I wouldn't because its probably just a misunderstanding - but some would
After reading many of the comments posted in this article,(and observing election results), I am dismayed that there are so many leftists in our country subscribing to so much dung! :confused:
After reading many of the comments posted in this article,(and observing election results), I am dismayed that there are so many leftists in our country subscribing to so much dung! :confused:
To Quote Einstein: “there are two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not too sure about the universe”
Based on the latest version of the proposed NDAA, I'd say Congress has very little trust in the military policing its own. Here's the list of additional "covered offenses" for which commanders lose UCMJ authority to a Special Trial Counsel:
Article 117a - Wrongful broadcast or distribution of intimate visual images
Article 118 – Murder
Article 119 – Manslaughter
Article 120 – Rape and sexual assault generally
Article 120b – Rape and sexual assault of a child
Article 120c – Other sexual misconduct (indecent viewing, recording, or broadcasting; forcible pandering; indecent exposure)
Article 125 – Sodomy
Article 128b – Domestic violence
Article 130 – Stalking
Article 132 – Frauds against the United States
Conspiracy to commit any of the above
Solicitation to commit any of the above
Attempt to commit any of the above
Based on the latest version of the proposed NDAA, I'd say Congress has very little trust in the military policing its own. Here's the list of additional "covered offenses" for which commanders lose UCMJ authority to a Special Trial Counsel:
Article 117a - Wrongful broadcast or distribution of intimate visual images
Article 118 – Murder
Article 119 – Manslaughter
Article 120 – Rape and sexual assault generally
Article 120b – Rape and sexual assault of a child
Article 120c – Other sexual misconduct (indecent viewing, recording, or broadcasting; forcible pandering; indecent exposure)
Article 125 – Sodomy
Article 128b – Domestic violence
Article 130 – Stalking
Article 132 – Frauds against the United States
Conspiracy to commit any of the above
Solicitation to commit any of the above
Attempt to commit any of the above
No not Article 125 !!!! How will anyone get promoted without this key power...
I thought about this quite a bit after my first post in this thread and I realized that five lines of climate-controlled snark just wasn't enough.
It's the holiday season - people need a “pick me up” - they need something to read while they are in their pajamas, sitting in their easy chair, drinking their coffee, and pretending to be productive while "teleworking"
...hahahahaha “Teleworking™” - now THERES a big fucking trust-builder to start this rant - I think I may have just pee'd a little in my boxer shorts a little bit.
Boxers - that’s funny - BOXers - I'm even part of the underwear game - anyway, I’m getting off track…
…let’s take a step back and see how deep this "trust in the military" problem really goes.
Hold onto your hats mother fuckers – RANT MODE ACTIVATED:
Lets start off with something that seems more at home in a Seinfeld episode than a discussion about the military and their “trust problem” - the US Army Beef Scandal.
After a quickly drawn “contract” to provide provisions to Army expeditionary forces, the Army started feeding rot gut quality beef to its troops. Beef that was so poorly handled that it was chemically contaminated and spoiled.
…but hey, eat up boys.
This fucking bad-beef fiasco actually killed twice as many soldiers during the Spanish American war than actual combat with the Spanish. Notable is that one of the contract companies is still in business and is the ONLY certified Japanese Wagyu Cattle distributor on the eastern seaboard. The other makes “Treet” – for the uninitiated, Treet is a cheap knockoff of SPAM.
A cheap knockoff of SPAM – say that in your head a few times and tell me – does the company that made a cheap knockoff of SPAM sound like a company that would sell shitty meat to the Army so Frank Costanza could over season it and serve it in his mess hall? When you combine a company that distributes Japanese Wagyu Beef and a company that makes a cheap SPAM substitute and tell them to send some meat to the troops at a heavily discounted price, do you expect a shady result?
Yes.
The fucking correct answer is YES.
The trust is already flowing through my veins, and I am just getting started.
Did the Ohio National Guard earn any trust for the military when they opened fire at Kent State and killed 4 student protestors?
...I wasn't there – I’m just asking for a friend
What about that little frat-party-run-amok at Mai Lai in March of 1968?
Yes, the same frat party that was pretty much covered up until November of 1969 when the DoD just couldn’t cover it up any longer. How much trust in the military did THAT little bit of poor judgement build ?? Considering that the military essentially covered it up for over a year, I don’t feel like that was one of our more ‘transparent’ moments in the era of military trust building. Whatever came of that little error in tactical judgement that the peace-niks called a massacre?
I mean, other than the ONE GUY being convicted a serving 3 years on house arrest?
...again, I wasn't there - I'm just asking for a friend
Oh - and here's one that just won't go silently into that good night...
If You Or Your Family Were Exposed To Contaminated Water At Camp Lejeune, Let Us Help You. It's Time For The Men & Women Who Served Our Country & Their Families To Receive the Compensation They Deserve! Toxic chemicals were released into the water supply systems from 1953 to 1987. This means that nearly 1 million people may have been exposed to these harmful chemicals. As a result, anyone who lived or worked at Camp Lejeune for at least 30 days during this period may now be entitled to compensation.
WHAT.IN.THE.ACTUAL.FUCK.
...SERIOUSLY?
This shit went on for 34 fucking years - and was then COVERED UP for another 35 fucking years before the fucking ambulance chasers finally got a hold of it?
Housing for soldiers hasn’t really been all that trustworthy in recent memory – well, not until things went completely off the rails at MacDill AFB as part of a 65 MILLION dollar lawsuit – of course most of the executives walked away scott free while the military basically gaslighted the victims and let the issue die a silent death. Has housing gotten any better?
…my son’s hasn’t - but you know - those lower enlisted folks just like to complain. Besides, we need to use this money to reseed the Penncross Bent on the main post golf course putting green.
Boy oh boy - the trust in the military is just squirting out of my asshole at this point.
And how about this one: I've got two words that will jog your "trust" in the military and its institutions:
-Lieutenant
-Colonel
-Oliver
-North
-United
-States
-Marine
-Corps
...how did the trust in the military work on that one?
I'd say more about this, but, I don't recall.
Really, I cant remember.
I don't recall and I can't remember.
Fat Leonard?
Agent Orange?
The VA Health Scandal?
Abu Ghraib?
What about "XO Movie Night", on the USS Enterprise?
THE FUCKING USS ENTERPRISE (talking about CVN-65 not NCC-1701; Mr Spock wouldn’t have gotten involved in such shenanigans)
…for what its worth – the “XO” during the "XO Movie Night" scandal was actually a graduate of Top Gun so, go figure. Depending on your point of view, "XO Movie Night" was pretty harmless and never got any complaints from the crew or is subordinate leaders - but - once congress got a hold of it - LOOKOUT MOTHERFUCKERS - RIGHTEOUSNESS IS COMING
Here is another one of my favorites – the side effects of mefloquine?
…it took until 2013 before USSOCOM decided that with three alternatives for chloroquine resistant malaria prophylaxis, perhaps there was something better – but boy oh boy – the dreams you would have were certainly worth the ride – amiright?
What about everyone’s favorite Marine turned politician, James Mattis and his haphazard response to the Haditha Massacre?
Mistakes were made.
Pfft... moving on
What about politicians that said we should have stayed in college instead of getting stuck in Irack?
What about politicians that called us baby killers and murderers?
What about politicians that called our offensive efforts “night raids” and compared US SOF to the Nazi stormtroopers?
Is it at all possible that part of the trust problem comes from our sElected representatives bad mouthing the military as a way of building political street cred?
Yes.
Again, the correct fucking answer is 'Yes'
When our self-righteous virtue signaling politicians take every opportunity to accuse the military of sexism, racism, nationalism, and every other bad-ism they can come up with, you can’t expect the public to just give their trust freely.
Then of course is the wokeness addressed in the article…
An admiral suggesting that the Navy should consider reviving the practice of looking at photos in promotion boards indirectly because it allows them to make promotion decisions based explicitly on race doesn’t build trust.
…because muh’ diversity
Or that fat SF guy, Chairman Mack Milky, testifying to congress that he wanted to understand “white rage,” in response to reasonable inquiries about whether cadets at West Point should be learning critical race theory
…because muh inclusivity
Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen (and Airwomen) keep getting arrested for drug smuggling, murder, rape, torturing prisoners, pissing on dead bodies, more rape, embezzlement, conspiracy to commit and cover up drug smuggling, murder, rape, and embezzlement…
…and suddenly, this problem with the military and the problem with squandering the public trust doesn’t seem like such a mystery after all.
Besides, I spent 30 years in the US Army and while I would have willingly sacrificed my life for my nation as well as the men and women that I served with – but I don’t trust the “institution” any further than I could throw somebody that is currently flagged under AR 600-9.
Trust.
People keep using that word. I do not think it means what they think it means.
RANT MODE DEACTIVATED
That is all.
bblhead672
12-08-2022, 12:39
Great rant Box...
There was also that little incident in 1932 where President Hoover ordered Gen. MacArthur to use Army calvary, infantry and tanks to drive impoverished WW1 veterans out of their camps in DC. Did MacArthur decline to use deadly force against his countrymen? No.
Anyone who believes the US Military would not kill their countrymen if ordered to do so do not have a full understanding of US history and the willingness of people to follow orders whether or not Constitutional or moral.
Roguish Lawyer
12-11-2022, 16:00
I watched Patton for probably the 134th time the other day. Watch the opening scene, where he's speaking in front of the big flag. Listen to what he says, and compare his characterization of the US with what we are seeing today. Ask your self how this country has reversed its entire ethos 180 degrees in such a short period of time.
The US insurgency that started in the 1960s, or perhaps earlier, has succeeded in flipping the whole freaking country on its head. They are now in power. Now we celebrate losers and demonize winners. I don't see any of it changing unless we bring out the playbook (https://www.soc.mil/ARIS/books/pdf/HumanFactorsS.pdf) and actually use it. Here.
Surf n Turf
12-11-2022, 19:25
Box,
Extremely concise and well written (as usual).
I was going to say this all occurred after my time…but My Lai was in ’68 and I was still pushing the broom for uncle Sugar. In the ’70 I was at Kent State the night before the shooting, (and at the time thought it was a reasonable response)..They burned the ROTC building that night, and cut the firemen’s hoses as they were in the burning building. I’ve since changed my mind of the event, even if General DelCorso heard shots (or not) from the protesters.
I did spend all of my single life in WWII buildings, in CONUS and Europe, but they weren’t that old back then. :) (but some barracks still had Nazi adlers on the handrails).
I looked it up, they gave us Halofantrine in the 60/70 period for malaria. (It only had potential for high levels of cardiotoxicity.)The real bad one was the plague immunization.
I’m not sure where the Army goes from here. Things got pretty bad in the ‘70’s, and if you read Stormin Normans book, a group of Jr. Officers, and Senior NCO’s stayed in, and (it looks like) for a period of time resurrected the honor and esprit de corps of the service. Maybe these things go in cycles, and the NCO’s of today (including your son) might again save the Army from itself.
SnT
I watched Patton for probably the 134th time the other day. Watch the opening scene, where he's speaking in front of the big flag. Listen to what he says, and compare his characterization of the US with what we are seeing today. Ask your self how this country has reversed its entire ethos 180 degrees in such a short period of time.
The US insurgency that started in the 1960s, or perhaps earlier, has succeeded in flipping the whole freaking country on its head. They are now in power. Now we celebrate losers and demonize winners. I don't see any of it changing unless we bring out the playbook (https://www.soc.mil/ARIS/books/pdf/HumanFactorsS.pdf) and actually use it. Here.
It's past time!
Badger52
12-13-2022, 05:38
It's past time!Enjoyed with a glass of fine Pinochet Noir.
Over the years I have recruited a number of individuals in my employ to enlist.
Two have reached Field Grade Appointments.
One women is Ranger Qualified. There is rumor, but no confirm she is, or has finished the pipeline. I can info ID on a back channel if interested.
My grandson, I convinced not to enlist. It broke my heart, but this current policalsocial construct can only be defeated if we do not feed our chiltern in to their
meat grinder.
I have no faith in the future of this republic to survive the onslaught of woke cultural
activism. YMMV
Penn, I am with you Brother. I cannot, in good conscience, recommend the military to any of the kids of today. My own kids are of prime age to enlist and it breaks my heart that I cannot recommend it to little man who desperately needs the structure, camaraderie, and maturity that it would give him in his developmental years. But I can't feed him into the beast that automatically labels him a privileged racist premised upon the color of his skin; or an institution that wants to toss him into the meat grinder of some third-world shit hole because: "reasons."
I also sincerely believe that we have become barbarians since Madelain Half-Bright and $Bill stuck our nose in militant adventurism about the world; we have not yet recovered from our hubris, adventurism, barbarity, and arrogance.
The level of "stoopid" today is astounding. It is the worst I've seen in my 36 years in uniform and my six years as a DA civilian. We're tilting at the windmills of progressivism and woke ideology rather than leaning our formations towards lethality. Look no further than the current Chairman: Thoroughly Modern "woke" Milley; the fat bastard is a national embarrassment. And I call him a fat bastard as he continually tests the tensile strength of his uniform threads while we toss Soldiers out for busting the height/weight standards (unless you're Chairman).
We're due a reckoning and it's not going to be pretty.
My grandson, I convinced not to enlist. It broke my heart, but this current policalsocial construct can only be defeated if we do not feed our chiltern in to their
meat grinder.
I have no faith in the future of this republic to survive the onslaught of woke cultural
activism. YMMV
I disagree,,
By not participating you are condoling and encouraging this decline.
The wokes are a brainless juggernaut bent on destroying this nation.
We can not let that happen.
:mad:
"At this point, what does it matter anymore"... Hillary Clinton :mad:
Surf n Turf
01-02-2023, 20:15
I have no faith in the future of this republic to survive the onslaught of woke cultural activism. YMMV
I cannot, in good conscience, recommend the military to any of the kids of today. My own kids are of prime age to enlist and it breaks my heart that I cannot recommend it to little man who desperately needs the structure, camaraderie, and maturity that it would give him in his developmental years.
We're due a reckoning and it's not going to be pretty.
To follow on with Penn & JimP, I don’t believe any political savior charging in on a white horse, or patriotic citizens with just causes, will change our course, and the nation cannot be “saved” and will in fact (shortly) turn into something we cannot view nor abide.
By not participating you are condoling and encouraging this decline.
The wokes are a brainless juggernaut bent on destroying this nation.
We can not let that happen.
:mad:
JJ BPK, I fear it is far to late to change our country’s destiny. That effort should have started in the ‘70’s onward.
It is our fault (the thinking class) that allowed Ms Clinton’s husband, Jorge Bush, and the Kenyon to take the “training wheels” off of our Republic (and call it a democracy), and accelerate the 1960’s slide into this sewer of socialism, greed, envy, and empty values. We have reached our end point. We are no longer repopulating our country with like minded citizens, we are overrun with “outsiders” who share neither our values, nor our history. They wish to erase the foundation markers of our land, villainize our forefathers and heros, degrade our contribution to advancement of universal culture and law, and feed upon the bounty of our country, while wishing for it’s demise.
The dissolving of These United States of America spells the coming end to western civilization.
SnT
Greed is an unfortunate natural affliction that impacts all human pursuits. It permeates every undertaking. It's why the Army shifted from a theme of service in their recruiting videos to a theme of benefits in their recruiting videos.
Be all that you can be - my bipolar, cant pass a PT test, kicked out of school for drugs, don't want to be bothered while I am gaming, ass.
...instead, we now have an 'Army Gaming Team' that talks about all the waivers and exceptions that you will need before you can gain access to all of the sweet benefits you will get for enlisting.
Service?
Fuck that.
What will you give me if I join up?
"We" in the military will zealously proclaim that part of the problem is the constant din of the "every one gets a soccer trophy" culture at the same time that we dutifully sit down and write everyone a service award for deployments - or PCS awards.
"We the people" are also the ones RAISING those kids that cant pass a PT test, got kicked out of school for drugs, and don't want to be bothered while they are gaming.
We the people don't trust the military because it is ran by people that WE elected to run it - and it is filled with kids that WE the people raised.
Garbage in - garbage out.
We talk about problems with diversity and standards - but these two screen grabs are REAL recruiting ads from 40 years ago...
...and they didn't help during the 70's - because young people didn't trust the Army then either.
The problems have always been the same - in the 60's kids didnt want to enlist because life was good - go to college - smoke some dope - wear some bell bottoms - fuck a few of your classmates - rinse - repeat...
...and you want me to give that up to fight an unpopular war that cant even be agreed on by the people running it?
No thanks. Its sounds a lot like Irag/Afghanistan/Ukraine except for its a flashback to the 60s...
...the generation that protested war - the generation that protested the establishment - the generation that protested corporate greed - the generation that produced the current politicians that make up an establishment that thrives on corporate greed to pay for never ending wars while enabling politically expedient insider trading.
Young people can see when an organization is full of shit - it transcends generations and genders and race and religion.
...but hey, lets put that new bizarro-world EweToob recruiting commercial up and see what it does.
It doesn't matter than well over half of our nations young people don't meet the moral or physical standards to enter service (because of behavioral problems, health problems, fitness problems, or just plain piece-of-shit-person problems)
Trust ???
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Just my two cents - I could be wrong.
I blame this on “Science”, specifically “Modern Medicine”. The child mortality rate from 1800-2020 has dropped significantly causing the pool of people surviving to “mature” (as in the ability to procreate) into adulthood to increase substantially.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/
These trends in the western world are likely to be one of the chief causes in the amount of homosexuality and gender fluid nonsense rising. Children that should have never existed are self-selecting themselves out of the gene pool.
As for the future of the US in general, and US Military specifically I don’t think the issues that we see are much of an issue WRT National security.
1) The rest of the world is getting ready to devolve from the standard of living they currently enjoy into something more like pre 1945 (which is the norm)
2) The US is more or less impervious to any of those concerns because of the US Navy (we have one, no one else does)
3) The US Army is, and always has been, a last resort. Generally when compared to other major powers, the US Army historically needs 1-2 years to get it’s act together. This is because it can. It’s a feature, not a flaw.
4) When (not if) the manufacturing base returns to North America, the people who can / are willing to work will thrive while those who shouldn’t exist will cut off their reproductive organs or try to mate with themselves thereby removing their genes from the population.
Sorry if that is a little disjointed, and there are a lot of different concepts that seem to fit together, but it really is kinda good for us and bad for everyone else.
I blame this on “Science”, specifically “Modern Medicine”. The child mortality rate from 1800-2020 has dropped significantly causing the pool of people surviving to “mature” (as in the ability to procreate) into adulthood to increase substantially.
1) The rest of the world is getting ready to devolve from the standard of living they currently enjoy into something more like pre 1945 (which is the norm)
Sorry if that is a little disjointed, and there are a lot of different concepts that seem to fit together, but it really is kinda good for us and bad for everyone else.
More Science
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA
Surf n Turf
01-03-2023, 18:22
I blame this on “Science”, specifically “Modern Medicine”. The child mortality rate from 1800-2020 has dropped significantly causing the pool of people surviving to “mature” (as in the ability to procreate) into adulthood to increase substantially.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/
These trends in the western world are likely to be one of the chief causes in the amount of homosexuality and gender fluid nonsense rising. Children that should have never existed are self-selecting themselves out of the gene pool.
bubba,
Here is an article that might make your observations accurate
SnT
Chipping away at the mystery of immortality: The race to cheat death as populations age in Asia
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/slowing-down-ageing-through-science-3180191
Surf n Turf
01-03-2023, 18:42
Trust ???
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Box,
Generally agree with your entire post. I especially like pointing out just WHO is responsible for this major mess
SnT
"We the people" are also the ones RAISING those kids that cant pass a PT test, got kicked out of school for drugs, and don't want to be bothered while they are gaming.
We the people don't trust the military because it is ran by people that WE elected to run it - and it is filled with kids that WE the people raised.
By the way, did you read the article where “Thoroughly Modern Milley” hid the car keys from President Trump.
What a sense of humor our senior leadership has. Just knee slappin’ ;)
Gen. Mark Milley Hid Nuke Codes from Trump While Holding Secret Calls with China – Then Armed Taliban with $80 Billion in US Weapons
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/4120459/posts
Fall 2016 iirc, made 04 a few years ago, of the 15 yrs in service at that time, 9 were deployed, his wife hates/loves me.
Regarding this quote, I'm somewhat convinced that China Plandemic was coauthored by a group of entrenched DC Politico's to undermine that administration, regardless of cost to national fabric. Admittedly, I have trust issues.
Gen. Mark Milley Hid Nuke Codes from Trump While Holding Secret Calls with China – Then Armed Taliban with $80 Billion in US Weapons
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/4120459/posts
bblhead672
01-04-2023, 12:04
flashback to the 60s...
...the generation that protested war - the generation that protested the establishment - the generation that protested corporate greed - the generation that produced the current politicians that make up an establishment that thrives on corporate greed to pay for never ending wars while enabling politically expedient insider trading.
I couldn't agree more. The anti-establishment people of the 60's/70's ARE the establishment now and the last thing they welcome is anyone being anti-establishment.