View Full Version : Counter Arty Fire
Not certain of the terminology, but aware that there is a system in place that can detect and counter arty fire. Of all the equipment being transferred to the Ukraines, why hasn't that system been primary?
It would certainly adjust the siege capability that Putin is employing in his scorch earth policy.
It's available from several sources, but these systems typically are integrated into sat/nav & CAS so it may not be viable to small budget armies?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGwqg3hv-zs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_WHYLQhgrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vQyMr8Dszk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80yv9klHF2k
Badger52
03-12-2022, 12:46
It's available from several sources, but these systems typically are integrated into sat/nav & CAS so it may not be viable to small budget armies?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGwqg3hv-zs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_WHYLQhgrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vQyMr8Dszk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80yv9klHF2kInteresting, thanks for that list. Firefinder was the one that came to mind immediately but it's been awhile so wasn't sure. Don't know RU capability of SEAD but the other side of this counter-battery business is that the rig & crew have "priority juicy target" painted on them. So it is a definite plus to own the airspace, no?
The Reaper
03-12-2022, 13:06
IIRC, it is/was called Counter Battery Radar. It would have to be integrated with some arty assets, preferably long range ones.
We could probably get some from the Taliban.
TR
It's available from several sources, but these systems typically are integrated into sat/nav & CAS so it may not be viable to small budget armies?
Do diligence..
Looking at the 3rd video,,
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a miniature sleigh and..... :D
Looks like a few have been donated to Ukraine both FireFinder and man portable Squire:
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/c4isr-command-tech/latest/ukraine-conflict-netherlands-to-supply-weapon-locating-radars-to-ukraine
TRWe could probably get some from the Taliban.
Sarcasm aside, Perfect grunt humor!!!
Flagg, it would be a game changer if that equipment is in place? If the Ukraine has the ability to utilize the system immediately, can they force a stalemate?
TR
Sarcasm aside, Perfect grunt humor!!!
Flagg, it would be a game changer if that equipment is in place? If the Ukraine has the ability to utilize the system immediately, can they force a stalemate?
I reckon they will be quite useful in the localised battle space, particularly due to their portability and lower power, lower probability of intercept.
But there are also the following assets in the region:
RQ-4 Global Hawk
RC-135 Rivet Joint
WC-135 Constant Phoenix
E-8C
Army prototype called ARTEMIS
And other other U.S. and NATO aircraft flying adjacent to Ukraine.
Unsure of any of those assets’ ability to provide counter battery grid references.
But JSTARS prototype was used over 30 years ago in Dessert Storm quite effectively for airborne ground surveillance and battle space management.
I assume the upgraded versions are even better.
I would like to think filtered intelligence from those platforms is finding its way to Ukraine.
The issues would be:
Reach of those platforms, how close to Ukraine do you run racetracks?
Range of those platform sensors, line of sight at altitude is ultimately limited.
Effectiveness of Russian EW jamming if used.
Badger52
03-13-2022, 20:02
I would like to think filtered intelligence from those platforms is finding its way to Ukraine.One would hope so.
There were some anecdotes of intel not being sufficiently real-time to effect an outcome on the battlefield. Nothing substantiated. The filter will never seem to satisfy the desires of the consumer. Plus ca change... etc.
From an SME that I am kind of familiar with:
Ukraine has our old AN/TPQ-36 (or just Q-36). It's more for locating mortar and howitzer fire. It can certainly pick up rocket artillery but the Q-36 only has a 10km range. So if a rocket passes by its search fan, the rocket is either well on its journey to someplace else or on its way to someplace close to the radar (or the radar itself).
I'm talking long range rockets. The Q-36 is better for the close fight against the shorter range 122mm BM-21 rockets.
One of these radars can pick up something from way out but it is most effective up to 10km. It's all about figuring out the munition's trajectory. The further along it's trajectory, the harder it is for the radar's computer to calculate an accurate point of origin.
One of the other targeting officers I work with was telling me he was picking up birds and commercial A/C with his Q-53 (newer long range radar). So they are sensitive and can pick up a lot, but it's about being effective.
He's been a member here since 2009, but has never posted an into. :rolleyes:
Surf n Turf
03-14-2022, 18:38
Do diligence..
Looking at the 3rd video,,
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a miniature sleigh and..... :D
JJ_BPK,
Damn you are good ! PI in your past ?
SnT
JJ_BPK,
Damn you are good ! PI in your past ?
SnT
Kinda, One of my better attributes in the service was my nite vision. I didn't use any lights on patrol, not even chem-lights. I perceive minute detail in the dark.
When I transitioned to the civilian market, I became a commercial systems programmer, then moved to design. One of my totted attributes was the ability to read the code and "see" minute errors in the logic.
I'm kinda an obsessive-compulsive detail-oriented geek.
I was told it's called visuo-spatial abilities.
I should have spotted the flag the 1st time... :mad:
Bettendorf
03-18-2022, 04:40
An American BCT currently operates two types of RADAR (I don't want to call them counter-btry RADAR because if they can't talk to and coordinate fires with guns, they are just RADAR). The Q-50 and Q-53. The Q-50 is operated by two Soldiers from a HMMV. Very low profile. The Q-53 is NOT low profile. It's like two large FMTV vehicles, one with the RADAR system and one with a two man-crew running the equipment. If the Q-53 is running 24-hour ops, is needs to get refueled every 24 hours or so, depending on its search pattern. These systems find the POO (point of orgin) and POI (point of impact) of rounds, either mortar, MLRS or arty.
Anyways, these are highly technical systems that need to be run by specialist.
All these systems being donated by the big man that got his 10 percent probably won't be able to work as they require training.
I left the field arty a bit ago some of my numbers are probably off but not by much.
Edit to add: I've seen a lot of footage of UKR and Russian arty/MLRS being fired on. The hard fight is firing and moving right away from the POO. It seems units on both sides get comfortable. Being lazy doesn't win with fires, ever