View Full Version : Alec Balwin may be in a pickle??
There was a very unfortunate firearms incident on the movie RUST set. One of the biggest Hollywood anti 2nd Amendment activists, Alex Baldwin was the person pulling the trigger. One person died and another wounded.
🙏Prayers to the family of Mrs. Halyna Hutchins
Seems the day prior to the incident, there were union labor troubles and there may be some big fallout..
Firearms discharge: unintentional vs negligent vs revenge??
There will be questions to be answered if Kalifornacate doesn't bury it for the good of the cause??
UPDATE: as I was typing this post FoxNews came out with an article..
Alec Baldwin's fatal prop gun shooting: Experts weigh in on how accident happened
The actor accidentally shot and killed 'Rust' cinematographer Halyna Hutchins and wounded director Joel Souza
"The person responsible for loading and ensuring that the firearm is ready for the scene is called an armorer [or weapons master], and you're supposed to have an armorer and an assistant armorer. Then there are several steps that you're supposed to go through to ensure that a weapon is loaded correctly with the correct type of blanks," Corrie explained. "Because there's more than one type of blank, there's lower power and then mid-power and then high-power blanks, and they create different visual effects."
"Before the actor is even given the weapon, it's supposed to go through several stages of safety before it's handed to the actor. And the actor has to entrust that the armorer and everyone else involved have done their job correctly before handing the weapon to the actor," he continued.
Armorer is a fairly new position in the history of film production, going back only to the 1980s. Before that, the prop master handled everything. Recently, it’s become more common to enlist specialists.
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/alec-baldwin-prop-gun-shooting-experts
Old Dog New Trick
10-22-2021, 19:38
Couple years ago he said this in reference to a Newport, California police officer who used “justified” deadly force to stop an assault on the officer.
“Wonder what it must feel like to unintentionally kill (murder) someone?”
Well, now he knows!!!
Only he wasn’t in a life or death struggle.
Hollywood actors that make fortunes utilizing “guns” for profit should stick to advocating for “World Peace” through non-violent means and personal responsibility. Surrounding yourself and family with armed security and then telling regular folks to give up their “responsible use” of firearms is the epitome of arrogance, privilege and hypocrisy!
I hope he eats a bullet with the shame he brought upon himself!
He - and people like him - sincerely disgusts the little bit of humanity I still have in me.
Combat Diver
10-22-2021, 22:32
Baldwin was also the producer and trigger puller. Both liable for manslaughter IAW New Mexico statues.
CD
Badger52
10-23-2021, 05:58
Baldwin was also the producer and trigger puller. Both liable for manslaughter IAW New Mexico statues.
CDQuite so. Jurisdiction where your feet are planted, not where you wish you were, and not Hollywood or your family's hideout now that you've put them in a paparazzi hurricane.
The liberal POS can eat a bag of dicks in hell.
I brame you Arec Barrwin
yes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOH9trJLedk&list=RDudS6losK7Ts&start_radio=1&rv=udS6losK7Ts
mark46th
10-23-2021, 10:45
The movie is set in the old West, 1880's. So, that means he was probably using a Colt revolver. He shot two people. Unless there was a live round and the two people were one directly in front of the other, he had to have cocked the gun twice and pulled the trigger twice. it doesn't sound like an accident at this point. I will wait for further info to come to a conclusion but for now it looks like he shot two people, intentionally...
The movie is set in the old West, 1880's. So, that means he was probably using a Colt revolver. He shot two people. Unless there was a live round and the two people were one directly in front of the other, he had to have cocked the gun twice and pulled the trigger twice. it doesn't sound like an accident at this point. I will wait for further info to come to a conclusion but for now it looks like he shot two people, intentionally...
He could have been fanning like John Wayne?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdUcBygCA4M
:munchin
The movie is set in the old West, 1880's. So, that means he was probably using a Colt revolver. He shot two people. Unless there was a live round and the two people were one directly in front of the other, he had to have cocked the gun twice and pulled the trigger twice. it doesn't sound like an accident at this point. I will wait for further info to come to a conclusion but for now it looks like he shot two people, intentionally...
The round passed through the first person and struck the second. Both were standing at the camera filming Baldwin as he fired. It's a common shot - that dramatic effect of a gun being pointed at the audience. In movies with bigger budgets, the camera filming such a shot is remotely controlled and no one is near it. I don't know who, in their right mind, would stand in the path of a weapon being fired.
S.
Old Dog New Trick
10-23-2021, 11:39
I don't know who, in their right mind, would stand in the path of a weapon being fired.
S.
Liberals - right mind, Hollywood elite know it alls!
Come on, Man!
The Armor on a periodic western movie is “scared shitless to load and maintain the weapons” due to inexperience! What could go wrong?
You are correct about one shot being fired through and through. And apparently every safety procedure developed since Brandon Lee’s death was thrown out the window and even by the assistant director Dave Halls (who also worked as assistant director of The Crow: Salvation, the sequel to Brandon Lee’s first movie in which he died of… an “accidental live discharge of a prop gun. Go figure!)
Rule number 2, Alec, “Never point a weapon at someone or something you are not willing to kill or destroy!”
Here is his chance to use all that influence he has.
10,000 people sign petition to ban guns from sets: Director and friend of cinematographer killed by Baldwin asks him to use his influence to make Hollywood change.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10123751/Hollywood-petition-ban-use-live-weapons-film-sets-gathers-10K-signatures.html
Badger52
10-23-2021, 15:52
Condolences to the family of Mrs. Hutchins.
Apparently, das war alles upgefucked. (https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/armorer-alec-baldwin-rust-set-admitted-nervous-abilities)
Somewhat new to biz armorer, none of the normal protocol of multiple checks before a shot, union crew (a bunch of 'em) had written resignations & walked off the set less than a day before over safety & Covid protocol violations (a friend in law enforcement says they call this "a clue"), and then...
Moments before the fatal shooting, Assistant Director Dave Halls grabbed a prop gun off the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the application [for the warrant].
"Cold gun," Halls yelled.
Apparently, das war alles upgefucked.
For some time the non-principles union workers on the set complained about unsafe conditions, lack of pay, and poor working conditions.
The set was cleared of all UNION labor the morning of the shooting.
The new armor age 24 is not experienced.
Uber Liberal Baldwin will catch Shiite from the union-loving Kali film industry Wokes for using scab labor..
Still piecing this story together, but bits are painting Mr Balswin in a bad light.
As a principal & producer in the film and the shooter, liability will fall on his person,,
Makes me happy :munchin
WarriorDiplomat
10-23-2021, 17:58
It smells of a lesson to Producers for neglecting the support BUT can be interpreted as this is what happens when you overwork, withhold pay and generally neglect the support of the production.
Either way couldn't have happened to a bigger a-hole
You gotta love Hollywood leftist derelicts like Baldwin and DeNiro lecturing society on virtue and ending gun violence and womens rights when these sexually sadist cover for pedophiles and drug fueled orgies then DeNiro has the gall to say that during his divorce when his 500 million dollar fortune was being split he cried he was broke
rubberneck
10-23-2021, 18:04
Condolences to the family of Mrs. Hutchins.
Apparently, das war alles upgefucked. (https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/armorer-alec-baldwin-rust-set-admitted-nervous-abilities)
Somewhat new to biz armorer, none of the normal protocol of multiple checks before a shot, union crew (a bunch of 'em) had written resignations & walked off the set less than a day before over safety & Covid protocol violations (a friend in law enforcement says they call this "a clue"), and then...
That sort of complacency annoys me. From the time they were old enough to handle a firearm my children have understood the concept that even though someone just checked the firearm it's their responsibility to verify for themselves when it's handed to them. He owned that gun the second it was handed to him. The whole I was told it was a cold gun is just limp. It was his responsibility to ensure it was unloaded. I don't know if jail is the appropriate punishment but IMHO he was clearly negligent and a mother and wife is dead because of it.
I don't get it. Why would they have real rounds with real bullets to begin with?? Shouldn't everything be blanks.
rubberneck
10-23-2021, 19:19
I don't get it. Why would they have real rounds with real bullets to begin with?? Shouldn't everything be blanks.
It might not have been a real round. If that gun had had a squib at some point and no one checked the barrel the next time it was fired with a blank the bullet would have left with enough force to kill someone. In fact that's exactly what happened to Bruce Lee's son.
It might not have been a real round. If that gun had had a squib at some point and no one checked the barrel the next time it was fired with a blank the bullet would have left with enough force to kill someone. In fact that's exactly what happened to Bruce Lee's son.
Amazing.
Old Dog New Trick
10-23-2021, 19:31
I’m still waiting on the rest of the Hollywood elites like Sean Penn, Sylvester Stalone, Liam Neeson, Robert DeNiro and some others that have made a living with “guns” to come to his defense. Unusually quiet on the Western Front?
Someone was killed… point blank - negligence, incompetence, failure to follow very strict protocols, or was it an intentional act to set someone up for failure?
My spidy senses lean towards gross negligence on the part of the crew that was responsible for setting up the scene and Baldwin was the producer who should have known you don’t point a gun at another human being and pull the trigger.
Three people bare blame for an unintentional homicide and each shares in the responsibility for that equally.
Jail time and enormous amounts of money should be forthcoming to Mrs. Hutchins family.
Badger52
10-23-2021, 19:34
I don't get it. Why would they have real rounds with real bullets to begin with?? Shouldn't everything be blanks.Couple reasons (I'm told), one of which is a Rx for disaster:
It might be desired to go off & fire some live rounds to familiarize the actor with the actual recoil they should be mimicking for the camera.
The other reason is that instead of just blanks, they may create actual dummy rounds, which are supposed to be done with bullet but WITHOUT primer or powder. Reloaders make these for themselves all the time for a variety of reasons. Why do this? The infamous (oooh, I'm intimidated) shot of the gun pointing right at the camera and looking at the rounds in the cylinder also with real bullets.
Doesn't sound like a standard blank with a wad; this is a round that killed Mrs. Hutchins and then passed through her and put the director in the hospital.
Sounds like Keystone Cops would've been a STRAC outfit by comparison.
Tragic.
And as CD pointed out, Jerkwad is on hook as producer as well.
The union crewmembers are sitting around with a beer reflecting on the literal bullet they just dodged.
As a reloader, I Do have rounds with bullets but not powder or primers, and I can see why they might want a shot looking at a loaded revolver.
The recoil aspect is one I never thought of though. Wonder if Baldwin will clutch at straws and claim some body switched the rounds deliberately on him.
Gonna be :munchin time watching this all unfold over the coming weeks. I wonder if it will completely kill the movie too.
Old Dog New Trick
10-23-2021, 20:53
Can anyone here recall James Arness, Denis Weaver, Charlton Heston, John Wayne or hundreds of war and Indian movies where “ANYONE” was killed by a prop gun?
I can’t!
Why is this a 21st century issue?
Millions of rounds have been fired in movies before CGI and those other movies seemed very realistic to me.
Last hard class
10-23-2021, 22:02
I'm not familiar with the law as pertaining to the producers' liability. But I think it unlikely as an actor, he will be held responsible for this. Union movies have a set of protocols regarding the use of firearms. The weapon probably belonged in the prop department. They should have an armorer responsible for the chain of custody for all weapons. Real or not. This person may be in props or might be in stunts. As Badger stated, this particular one may have also been used outside of the movies purpose. Could have been loaned to the movie. This was a small budget movie so I expect someone was wearing multiple hats. They clearly cut some corners. It's Hollywood, so I suspect the blame will work its way downhill. You know, like the way it works in the military when these things happen.
BTW: Many movies utilize a military advisor who may be part of the equation. There are multiple SOF guys who hold these positions. At least they claim SOF. It's a good bona fides to get in to the union. Hopefully not one on this movie.
LHC
Can anyone here recall James Arness, Denis Weaver, Charlton Heston, John Wayne or hundreds of war and Indian movies where “ANYONE” was killed by a prop gun?
I can’t!
Why is this a 21st century issue?
Millions of rounds have been fired in movies before CGI and those other movies seemed very realistic to me.
More Foley sound artists back in the day, all gunshots added after filming only relied on black powered blanks with puffs of smoke, not a large charge making the weapon having its own report and cycling from the high powered gas blanks or bulleted wood blanks like now days would be my guess. Modern Blanks will still kill your ass if close.
I have a feeling it was a blank but someone put a projectile over it like this or he did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR0AiqJ1voQ
Last hard class
10-23-2021, 22:09
More Foley sound artists back in the day, all gunshots added after filming only relied on black powered blanks with puffs of smoke, not a large charge making the weapon having its own report and cycling from the high powered gas blanks or bulleted wood blanks like now days would be my guess. Modern Blanks will still kill your ass if close.
I have a feeling it was a blank but someone put a projectile over it like this or he did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR0AiqJ1voQ
Yep
LHC
Badger52
10-24-2021, 03:43
Union movies have a set of protocols regarding the use of firearms. The weapon probably belonged in the prop department. They should have an armorer responsible for the chain of custody for all weapons. Real or not. This person may be in props or might be in stunts.Yep. I'll be shocked if all the union people who resigned & walked off the set over safety violations the previous day aren't deposed, each & every swingin' one.
Interesting read.
As the bits are revealed the plot thickens..
Not a 2L, but this seems to do a good job of explaining the legal side..
The noteworthy part is some of the background details are being filled in.
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/alec-baldwin-shooting-civil-criminal-liabilities-jonathan-turley
There are already witness statements that would fill out such a negligence narrative for trial.
One crew member is quoted as saying "There were no safety meetings. There was no assurance that it wouldn’t happen again. All they wanted to do was rush, rush, rush."
Another said there were three accidental discharges and the set was "super unsafe."
Yet another witness said, "Corners were being cut – and they brought in nonunion people so they could continue shooting."
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro professor of public interest law at George Washington University and a practicing criminal defense attorney. He is a Fox News contributor.
Old Dog New Trick
10-24-2021, 12:51
Dave Halls - First Assistant Director - keeps coming up in the news as someone you don’t want on your set. History of unsafe and hazardous movie sets!
Alls the armor has to say is there were three guns on the table (outside) for three different scenes and Dave Walls grabbed the one and only wrong one called it a “cold gun” and handed it to Baldwin before anyone had noticed - there was so much dis-function on the set that morning to begin with that it should have been completely shut down but (fill in blank) wanted to keep shooting and so we did.
A minute later the fatal shot was fired!
Perhaps some the left will now see that it's not guns that kill people it's people that kill people, then again maybe they won't.
sounds like he was practicing before an official rehearsal. if so why did he point that gun right at the people?
sounds like the actors aren't really used to checking all the cartridges to ensure that they aren't "real" or in any other way live (e.g blank rounds) but it also seems like there are supposed to be procedures where the prop master (or, Armorer) is supposed maintain chain of custody and then directly hand off the weapon to the actor... which didn't happen.
Baldwin, THE PRODUCER, should have known that just taking a gun out of the hands of an assistant director was not established procedure. And then to point it right at the people behind the camera? And the camera not have some sort of ballistic shield for safety?
Baldwin is a POS. As the producer, he should be held liable, even if he is not for being the trigger man.
sounds like he was practicing before an official rehearsal. if so why did he point that gun right at the people? .
It's a common film technique to film the gun being pointed directly at the audience (ie camera) as it is fired. In bigger films and better-run films, there is a shield in front of the camera, or the camera is remotely operated. Why the hell anyone would stand in the path of a weapon being fired (as the victims were), is another question.
S.
I was taught that the first rule when picking up a gun was to consider it loaded, and then check the gun to confirm whether the gun was loaded, or not.
Is Alex Baldwin guilty of unintentional manslaughter?
Imo, ignorance of a condition/law is not an excuse.
It's a common film technique to film the gun being pointed directly at the audience (ie camera) as it is fired. In bigger films and better-run films, there is a shield in front of the camera, or the camera is remotely operated. Why the hell anyone would stand in the path of a weapon being fired (as the victims were), is another question.
One of the great painting that hangs in the national gallery in D.C. is Winslow Homers "Left, Right"
The shot is directed left of center, as the viewer, you are looking straight down the barrel.
The shot is taken from a boat in deep swells, a metaphor for cycle of life, as the shot which is in the swell, centered, when that recognition between viewer and mark happens, Homer has captured your eye, centered it on the explosion at barrel end, arguable stating we are all looking down the barrel of a gun.
https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.39763.html
For the cheap seats...
"a prop gun went off" is a false narrative - "Baldwin pulled the trigger on a loaded pistol while INTENTIONALLY pointing it at an innocent human being" is what REALLY happened no matter how hard anyone tries to spin it
He picked up a loaded pistol - he failed to verify status of the handgun he was holding - he pointed it at a person - he pulled the trigger.
In other words, guns are dangerous and should all be banned because it was the gun that killed this woman not the reckless indifference of an arrogant millionaire hypocrite that makes money by negligently playing with the very same firearms that "we the people" should not be entrusted with.
I hope this haunts you forever Arec Barrwin - haunts you to the very edge of your sanity over the human life stolen away by your hubris - fuck you very much
rsdengler
10-25-2021, 09:22
It's such a shame and so avoidable, in the end he's to blame no matter the circumstances. It's negligence and pure stupidity on his part. I feel so bad for that young lady.
I was the designated armorer on a movie in the late '70s. I was hired as a Gofer (Production Assistant) but I was the only former Infantry soldier on the set and was chosen for the position. It stared Broadrick Crawford and Cameron Mitchell. Both had extensive work with guns over their careers. I rented 3 guns, a Lugar and revolver at the Stembridge Armory on the Paramount movie lot, and a paintball gun, for shooting balls filled with petroleum jelly to make the "cracked windows" effect, from Stunts Unlimited. All three stayed locked in my car, on my body, or in my sight the whole time they were away from the armory. When used, I would check that the guns were empty and the barrel cleared and showed all the actors on the set the same. They all (everyone in the scene, armed or not) watched me load the blanks into the guns before handing them to the armed actors. The Director of Photography would then explain the safe distance to them and set the camera angle so that the guns were not actually aimed directedly at anyone. After the scene, I collected the guns, cleared them (including checking that the barrels were clear) and returned them to my locked car.
BTW, the movie was never released. :D
...on the set of The Old Way, Gutierrez-Reed allegedly gave an UNCHECKED weapon to an 11-year-old actress. A source also told The Beast that Gutierrez-Reed would recklessly wave guns around.
On the set of Rust, there were two other incidents of guns being accidentally discharged by crew members. That source described Gutierrez-Reed to The Beast as "inexperienced" and "green." Here. (https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting)
Looks like a totally competent person to put in charge of weapons.
S.
Badger52
10-25-2021, 13:18
I was the designated armorer on a movie in the late '70s.Very much like what a couple others have told me in terms of ambiguity is banished from the set.
Curious; do you think if the movie had been released the market was such that you could've found a different path?
Just for context – lets imagine a similar series of events but instead of these events taking place on a film set full of PAID PROFESSIONALS that work in a 40 billion dollar global industry – lets transpose these events onto a recreational setting...
...go to an IDP match
...go to a 3 Gun match
...go to a Cowboy Action Shooting match
...go to a CMP match
...go to a rodeo
...go to the local Walmart
...go to any large chain sporting goods store except Dicks (because fuck Dicks)
Once you have established your presence at any one of these locations, proceed with the following series of actions:
Step 1 - brandish a gun
Step 2 - overtly and in front of witnesses, correctly clear the gun and make it safe
Step 3 - point the properly cleared gun directly at the timer operator or cashier
Step 4 - deliberately pull the trigger to prove to everyone that the gun is “safe”
Step 5 - safely return the firearm to a bench or holster
Now record the events that transpire.
The chances are good that you will never be allowed back on the range ever again.
The chances are also good that you might get beat the fuck up or shot.
The chances are pretty good you could get charged with odd sounding crimes like brandishing or menacing or in some jurisdictions - assault.
...unless of course you are an entitled multimillionaire Hollywood ego maniac – in which case all you have to do is call your publicist and post a few twits to social media about your broken heart.
Please for the love of god and midnight basketball – I beg of you – I beg of EVERYONE - stop using the phrase “I feel terrible for Arec Barrwin”
Fuck Arec Barrwin. He is a terrible man that has made quite a name for him self treating others (including his family) with nothing but disrespect and contempt.
** It was not a prop – it was a gun
** It did not ‘just go off’ – Arec Barrwin deliberately pulled the trigger while intentionally pointing it at an innocent human being.
**Arec Barrwin has done NOTHING to warrant or deserve pity for how he must feel. if anything, he has only earned the right to have his actions haunt his sanity for the rest of his days
The point was quite well made elsewhere: everyone is getting bent around the axle over the inexperience of the armorer - the type of ammo - how could live rounds end up in the chamber - was there a union problem - was the Moon in the 7th House? Was Jupiter aligned with Mars?
so many distractions when the real question should be..
-Why, Arec Barrwin - why did you recklessly point a gun at a person and negligently pull the trigger ???
That is all.
Damn Box, tell us how you really feel.
Quit holding back.
But I like the way you think.
Badger52
10-25-2021, 15:19
was the Moon in the 7th House? Was Jupiter aligned with Mars?
...
That is all.Thanks for lettin' the sun shine in.
Old Dog New Trick
10-25-2021, 15:32
I just hope that during the police interview when the detective asked Alec to describe what happened and … when Alec got the point where he said: “I drew the gun from my holster like this, pointed it directly at her (Mrs. Hutchins), cocked the hammer back like this and pulled the trigger; and the gun went BANG!”
The detective then said…
That’s what it’s supposed to do!
BTW, Alec wasn’t crying and wailing in the parking lot over his shooting of another person, no, he had just seen all his hubris, hypocrisies, and acting career swirling down the outhouse shitter!
If there was ever any question as to the level of regard that Alec Baldwin is held at in this forum it has been answered and rightfully so.
Please for the love of god and midnight basketball – I beg of you – I beg of EVERYONE - stop using the phrase “I feel terrible for Arec Barrwin”
I would have preferred this outcome on the photo for his negligence. :D
Curious; do you think if the movie had been released the market was such that you could've found a different path?
Oddly, TV and Film were my 'day jobs' to pay for my rent and flying lessons. (Even with the GI bennies, I still had to pay 10%.)
If there was ever any question as to the level of regard that Alec Baldwin is held at in this forum it has been answered and rightfully so.
Quantifying that level is difficult.
We could all start at a commonly understood point and just say "zero" - but even saying "zero" in a world that has been ass fucked by liberal fact-checkers can be tricky. (the same ones that are currently trying to call Baldwin's murder weapon a prop)
It's all about the science with these mother fuckers.
Let me explain:
Water freezes at zero - well, it freezes at zero degrees Celcius. Water also freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit - well, FRESH water freezes at 32 - saltwater freezes at 28. Immediately we see that trying to quantify a "level" of regard for someone can't be done with numbers in the classical sense - because water also freezes at 273 degrees Kelvin. Science can be one tricky son of a bitch - all of these numbers will produce the same ice cube but who the hell really cares about Kelvin and Celcius?
So much confusion with context and facts.
So, someone could honestly report that the "love rating" for someone was a steady 273.
That's not a bad number - Phil Rizzuto made it into the baseball hall of fame on a 273 batting average.
273 is higher than Mike Schmidt, Brooks Robinson, Willie McCovey, Carlton Fisk, Joe Mrgan - the list goes on.
Arec is certainly no Brooks Robinson - in fact, Arec can't even carry that man's jockstrap.
What about "zero"
Mariano Rivera and Jack Morris both made it into the Hall of Fame on a "zero" career batting average but they were both pitchers...
...and Arec can't hold a candle to Mariano Rivera
So - big numbers aren't all that important and a "zero" doesn't always apply even when we are using the same set of numbers. It would seem like some situations transcend numbers or levels that can measure any given amount of regard or disregard. In such cases, I have always found it easier to rely on more non-traditional terms - in this case...
...fuck that guy. Fuck him in his stupid ass.
Badger52
10-26-2021, 04:32
Oddly, TV and Film were my 'day jobs' to pay for my rent and flying lessons. (Even with the GI bennies, I still had to pay 10%.)Ahh, yes. The old GI Bill; we were livin' large back then. Have a VFR day. :)
Just a data point:
There has been a lot of talk about the weapon used in the shooting.
This is a short video reviewing the actual weapon used, as I understand the police have reported.
Pietta Colt 1873, SAA, 45LC, quote "a faithful reproduction the original Colt 1873 SAA"
The "original" Colt did not have a transfer bar..
Nor does the Pietta copy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w32RHdFyCI
I guess that lends credence to Baldwin saying he never pulled the trigger?? Some body loaded the thing with out an empty chamber??
The court fight should be ... interesting... :munchin
The court fight should be ... interesting... :munchin
Wait until you read it in the trial transcript...
I don't have a source, but it was quoted that Baldwin said in his interview he was " fanning " the hammer. :eek:
I wish the DA would move a little faster. :(
Just a data point:
There has been a lot of talk about the weapon used in the shooting.
Pietta Colt 1873, SAA, 45LC, quote "a faithful reproduction the original Colt 1873 SAA"
The "original" Colt did not have a transfer bar..
Nor does the Pietta copy.
]
Just out of curiousity, is it possible to fire a revolver like this one with finger off the trigger while pulling the hammer back half way and letting the hammer slip off the thumb?
Just out of curiousity, is it possible,,,,
Until we get to the trial, see the forensic evidence, and hear the X-Spurt witnesses babbling,, who nos??
As I remember the briefing when we were issued the 1873,
the first notch was called the safety notch,.
the second notch aligned with the cylinder disconnect for loading
the 3rd was full cocked.
The 1st pic shows the details of the notches
The 2nd pic shows the other parts in relation
The 3rd pic shows the notches in a like-new and well-worn state.
With any used/abused weapon there can be wear....
Here is an explanation of the Colt 1873 hammer and its usage.
Old safety briefing was to only load 5 rounds and leave an empty cylinder under the hammer.
https://www.bevfitchett.us/colt-army-revolver/hammer-positions.html
Old Dog New Trick
12-06-2021, 21:28
Alec thinks everyone is more stupid than he. His defense team is making an argument unsupportive of the firearm in question. The Colt SAA or an equivalent copy will not fire unless you first cock the hammer. Once you’ve done that and depending on wear and tear on the sear (or holding the trigger back) the gun will fire with as little as one pound of pressure.
Alec failed every “safe” firearms handling “rule” from the cardinal four to all the others and the film crew was negligent in following guidelines established since the Brandon Lee shooting to prevent what happened.
Everyone who had a role in this should be found guilty of negligent homicide and Alec should be charged with first degree manslaughter, and second and/or third degree murder and let a jury decide based on evidence presented in a trial.
The Reaper
12-06-2021, 23:20
IIRC, the Uberti and Pieta Single Action Army clones have three clicks to full cock, the genuine Colt has four. The first click is the safety notch engaging. The second is for loading, etc.
The reason for the load five and leave the chamber under the hammer empty is that it is entirely possible that when fully loaded, the hammer is directly in contact with the primer of the sixth round and if dropped or struck on the rear of the hammer, it may strike the primer with sufficient force to fire.
First, if he fanned the revolver, I wonder who, if anyone told him to fire in that manner. Once the hammer is being fanned to the rear, should it slip with a round in the cylinder aligned with the hammer, it can fall with sufficient force to discharge the round. Fanning is inherently inaccurate in the absence of a lot of practice. The standard cowboy action shooting practice is to hold the weapon in the strong hand and cock the action with the support hand.
All of these points are moot if someone loaded a prop gun with live rounds and handed it to an ignorant actor to be used in a film shot.
YMMV-
TR
I am a cowboy action shooter...
I have several of these Model 1873 SA replica firearms. The ones in question are in fact "3 click" pistols. I can also state that "fanning" the hammer on one of those pistols only cocks the hammer - once the hammer makes that first click - it will not fall unless you pull the trigger.
...mechanical failure based on poor maintenance and upkeep could of course lead to a legit malfunction
If you have a newer Uberti with the floating firing pin - you can just about hammer nails with a loaded pistol and the hammer will not strike the primer until the trigger is pulled. If you have a Ruger or other clone that has a transfer bar - you can just about hammer nails with it and it wont fire until the hammer is pulled.
...mechanical failure based on poor maintenance and upkeep coupled with deactivating or removing these added safety features, could of course lead to a legit malfunction
If you have an "older" 4-click or a Pietta/ Ruger clone that does NOT have a transfer bar and the hammer is down on a live round - you can hit the hammer hard enough to ignite the primer but if you pull the hammer past that first click - you still have to pull the trigger to lower the hammer.
...mechanical failure based on poor maintenance and upkeep could of course lead to a legit malfunction
If you pull the trigger on an uncocked Uberti/Pietta/Ruger clone - nothing will happen. If you pull and hold the trigger - every time you pull back and release the hammer - the gun will fire. Fanning one of those old (or or new) pistols without a transfer bar in that manner will shoot exactly the same way as a new model with a transfer bar or floating firing pin.
...mechanical failure based on poor maintenance and upkeep could of course lead to a legit malfunction
If you have one without a transfer bar or floating firing pin and pull the hammer back juuuust far enough to NOT get that first click and then let it go on a live round - who knows - it "might" have enough force to ignite a primer. I can also say as a point of fact - there are tons of competition guns that have had trigger jobs done that fail to ignite the primer because the "springs" have been lightened too much. An antique or worn spring on one of these pistols could result in frequent "light primer strikes" which would make such a malfunction unlikely but possible.
...mechanical failure based on poor maintenance and upkeep could of course lead to a legit malfunction
Arec Barwin is quite possibly full of shit - maybe he had his finger on the trigger the entire time and didn't realize it - or he could just be a big fat sack of shit telling a big fat lie in an attempt to get a not-guilty verdict in the court of public opinion because nowadays the court of public opinion seems to be an important juror to win over.
...or he could be the unfortunate victim of a rare mechanical failure based on poor maintenance and upkeep that could have led to a legit malfunction in which case the films producers should be held liable in a civil case for not providing a safe environment for his crew knowing that real firearms and not "props" were being used during production.
We should follow the science on this one.
Well, as Baldwin is one of the listed "Producers" I'd say if one line of reasoning doesn't get him, the other will. Course, as I see it, he's guilty of both. Can we hang him twice?? :munchin
The very first rumor that I heard out of Hollywood was that Baldwin was tired of rehearsing but was told to do it again. Supposedly he said something like, "Maybe I should just shoot you." He pointed the gun at the director and pulled the trigger. Again, just a rumor, but I was working on a film when our director of photography got a call from his wife about Freddie Printze the day he died and her "rumor" turned out to be correct. And it fits his personality, angry but hiding it behind humor.
Old Dog New Trick
12-07-2021, 11:31
Hollyweird, where cowboy six shooters kill 18, an M16/M60 never runs dry, and 1911s are double action… but only if you rack the slide every time you walk through a door!