View Full Version : M21 questions
Last years "vacation" in a tax free zone has paid off! After the manditory trip to Disneyland, new curtains for mama, and this years training money, theres enough left for a new piece. Im going with an M21 (yes, yes, I know...gas gun vs. bolt gun), but I had some questions that maybe someone could help out with. Im probably going with the Springfield Armory/ McMillian/ Leupold combo, however, does anyone have any opinion on Armscorp double lugged recievers? Good or bad? Any opinion on ART II 3x9 vs Leupold Mark 4 10x40? Lastly, any advice on the mount? Picatinny rail seems the way to go anymore. Any opinion on the best to go with? Any advice would be most appriciated.
The Reaper
02-06-2005, 13:26
Last years "vacation" in a tax free zone has paid off! After the manditory trip to Disneyland, new curtains for mama, and this years training money, theres enough left for a new piece. Im going with an M21 (yes, yes, I know...gas gun vs. bolt gun), but I had some questions that maybe someone could help out with. Im probably going with the Springfield Armory/ McMillian/ Leupold combo, however, does anyone have any opinion on Armscorp double lugged recievers? Good or bad? Any opinion on ART II 3x9 vs Leupold Mark 4 10x40? Lastly, any advice on the mount? Picatinny rail seems the way to go anymore. Any opinion on the best to go with? Any advice would be most appriciated.
The M21 will require a lot more care, tuning and maintenance to shoot as well as the competition.
I had an Armscor and a Smith (IIRC) rifle, M1A parts are so high these days, I recommend buying the complete rifle rather than building up a receiver. If you go that route, Fulton Armory builds a good gun.
The Mac is a good stock, as for the optic, I would take the Leupold 3.5-10x M3 over the others you are looking at.
I have never found a rock solid M-1A mount, and I have tried most of them.
Good luck.
TR
ARMS has a new low profile mount (#18 i think) that is supposed to be pretty good. I also recommend the Super Sniper scope as I have not been able to beat it's performance for anywhere near the price. SWFA is the only place to get them, they can be reached at www.riflescopes.com or by searching for SWFA on the web.
YMMV, HTH
Good times,
Blake
TR,
Thanks for the thoughts. I definately agree on buying the whole rifle rather than building from the ground up (although Fulton did some really nice work on an M1 a friend of mine owns). Armscorp has an M21 model they offer, but Ive heard a couple of bad opinions on their receivers (in reference to their metallurgy).
The Leupold sounds like the way to go. Cant argue with their success. Same with the Mac stock.
Your experiences on the mount problems has been shared with me by a few others as well. I did hear a good report on Sadlak Ind. new mount, but its only one guys opinion and didnt want to make a decision off just his experience (especially with the cost of M1A parts these days).
The Reaper
02-06-2005, 14:00
Air:
I have the ARMS mount on one of my M1As, it does not lock the optics securely.
I own the Super Sniper as well, and while it is an excellent value, I am not sure that it belongs on this rifle.
I like the Leupold 3.5-10x M3s for my 7.62 gas guns. With the cams allowing you to dial in the range, one turn only of elevation adjustment, and the variable power, it is an excellent complement to a good precision gas gun.
Just my .02.
TR
I'm considering a build from LRB, which I learned about only recently. They make a forged receiver with an integral rail for mounting optics:
http://www.lrbarms.com/pages/1/index.htm
I intend to use the rifle for range work and hunting. Thoughts?
Edited: I found some more info.
Air:
I have the ARMS mount on one of my M1As, it does not lock the optics securely.
I own the Super Sniper as well, and while it is an excellent value, I am not sure that it belongs on this rifle.
I like the Leupold 3.5-10x M3s for my 7.62 gas guns. With the cams allowing you to dial in the range, one turn only of elevation adjustment, and the variable power, it is an excellent complement to a good precision gas gun.
Just my .02.
TR
I stand corrected, Thanks for the info TR
The Reaper
02-06-2005, 14:12
TR,
I read somewhere else recently about a smaller, custom outfit that is producing forged receivers with an integral rail for optics. That sound familiar to you?
'Fraid not.
I have seen the Troy, Sage, and new McMillan folding stocks, bit no railed receivers.
TR
The LRB idea sounds like an interesting concept, but I dont know if I have the funds to be the test pilot :) . It would seem resonable that it would solve the problems the TR and others have experienced, but Id like to see what effects, if any, altering the receiver design would have on long term use. If there were damage, how would it be repaired? Its definately worth looking into further...
The Reaper
02-06-2005, 14:46
Nasty looking plant, but I would take forged over cast (Springfield) any day.
That is an incredible dealer price for the receiver, with nothing special other than the two rail bases added.
I would expect that a competent smith could carefully weld on a mount and cut away the excess for far less than that.
Just my .02, YMMV.
TR
I would expect that a competent smith could carefully weld on a mount and cut away the excess for far less than that.
TR
Hmm, now that is something I hadn't considered. It definitely makes me more interested in the Fultons.
If you are not hung up on the roll your own mentality, I know that Texas Brigade armory does good work, although a little pricey. Definately worth looking into.
Air,
True. That is a little higher than Fulton or SA, but I guess you get what you pay for. I haven't heard much of their M1A's, but I have heard nothing but good on their bolt guns. Choices, choices, choices.... ;)
Air,
True. That is a little higher than Fulton or SA, but I guess you get what you pay for. I haven't heard much of their M1A's, but I have heard nothing but good on their bolt guns. Choices, choices, choices.... ;)
A friend of mine has an m1a in their shop right now getting turned into a close facsimile of a USMC DMR. Probably will be a little while till it comes out of the shop as they are only a 2 man operation with tons of irons in the fire right now, but all of their stuff that I have seen has been quite impressive. For me, these guys have the added advantage of being right next door to the range that I use all the time, so I can just mozy on over and take a look at things when I am in the area.
good times,
blake
Air,
Im envious. Nothing like being able to see it before you invest. Thanks for the help, gentlemen.
Hopefully this thread isn't done, I have a few questions
TR,
I purchased an ARMS #18 and can relate to the optics "swimming" on the mount. I have a Springfield M1A NM and placed the ARMS mount on it with childlike giddyness and was upset at the range when I found that the rifle won't group with this mount. :( I know the rifle is fine, I sighted it in iron sights the same day I bought it. The scope is a (don't laugh) Tasco 6-24 X 42mm Mil-dot varmint scope. I'm shooting anywhere from 12-14 inches high at 100m. The scope is bottomed out in elevation and will give no more. I have the same scope on my 700 Sendero and it's able to consistently help me shoot just a hair under 1/2 in.
I'm sure the scope is not the problem. I work just down the road from Fultom Armory and would like to get some more background help before taking this up with Clint at Fulton.
Any recommendations?
Thanks in advance
longrange1947
03-05-2005, 10:59
The ARMs POS mount is probably rocked to the rear givng a reverse moa slant at teh front instead fo the back. The ARMs mount will not stay inn place and I only know of one individual that has a mounting technique for the ARMs that seems to work. He uses special tools taht he created and about three years of experimentation. I call him slightly anal. :D
I would under no circunstances weld a base to the receiver. there is the very real possiblity that the receiver, base, or both could be damaged beyond repair in the process. This was found out to the chagrin of the Marine Corps who tried this technique about twenty five years ago.
I would own an ART scope only if it was the last scope available on this planet AND if I could no longer shoot irons.
The only scope mount that I have ever used that retained zero was the Brookfield mount and even that took time to mount properly and any of them can get rocked to the rear due to differences in the receiver/barrel union.
Anyone with a TRW reciver should not try to mount a scope period unless they have a masochism in their blood. :eek:
Peregrino
03-05-2005, 18:16
Longrange1947 - You hit hard! Even if I do agree with you. (Now get Ed to add his .02) And I never had anything but heartburn out of the ART II's either. I bought an SA version ART IV many years ago and it's gathering dust too. Since the thread appears to have been resurected, I'll throw in the PM I sent Mac - since he hasn't bothered to check back in lately.
Ref M21 - Hope I'm not too late!
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Mac - Saw your post about the M21. Sending a PM because I think the thread's gone stale. Unfortunately I was out of the net when it went down. Have you committed yourself yet? If not - check out www.lrbarms.com. Specifically their M25 reciever. I saw them (and their product) at the SHOT Show (courtesy of TR). It's a good concept and appears to be a quality piece of work. You don't really need the double lugs, they make bedding the stock that much more difficult and if they're not part of the original forging (many are weld-ons) they can cause problems. Get yourself a copy of "The M14 Owner's Guide and Match Conditioning Instructions" by Scott Duff and John Miller. Its the best book (for the price) on the M14 (that's all a M21 is - a souped up 14) that I have in my library. If I were to get another one (got two match grade ones now) that's the way I would go. And probably get Fulton or somebody similar to build it for me. (Fulton does good work, they built both of my Garands - you just have to be patient.) If you don't want to wait, check out Ronnie Morris (ronm@bellsouth.net), he built my newest M1A and I've been quite pleased with it. Shoots 175's as well as I can hope for. Now the question - Why do you want a M21? Personally I love them too. I used mine for service rifle competition for years until I started shooting ARs. But the truth is, they're not the most accurate rifle out there and they require a lot more care and feeding. I still shoot mine regularly for nostalgia but when I'm serious I use other guns. Last but not least - pay heed to TR's advice especially about the optics, he knows the products. FWIW - Peregrino
Psywar1-0
03-05-2005, 23:08
Im all of 2 days into my own personal M21 phase. Im not a sniper, but I hang out with one alot in the woods and want a good 308 "Spotters gun" so to speak.
I looked at the ARMS mount, and a TA11. Shitcanned that Idea as the scope was way too high. What do yall think of the KAC RAS for the M1A?
As far as scope height, the ras seems like a much better option as you mount one ring where the stripper clip guide used to be and your second ring on the first or second rail of the ras..........................
longrange1947
03-05-2005, 23:54
Peregrino, long time no see, what you been up to lately?
I shot the M21 for way too many years and have a soft spot for it as well. I shot the M14NM for a few years as well. AS a matter of fact I still have one zeroed in the aarms room. However, I too now shoot the AR. Easier on my old bones. :)
Drop by and say hi!
Peregrino
03-06-2005, 10:14
Longrange - Looking forward to it. TR is my new boss and we're planning on stopping by for business anyway. I missed the weather match at Butner because I got home at 0130 Sat morning and couldn't see driving, shooting, and driving again with two hours of sleep after a week on the road with TR. Went plinking at Ramseur with Mark Hunt yesterday to make up for it. They were supposed to be doing their HP match but the scheduling got mixed up. Found ourselves surrounded by the militia wannabes shooting a nostalgia match with various .30 military rifles. Lots of M1As, Garands, and a couple FALs. Only one AR on the line (that crowd has a very outspoken prejudice against "mouse guns"). Wound up grabbing the end of the line and checking out the trigger job Mark put in TR's SPR. Sweet! Sent TR a PM last night with the AAR - Now I've got to return it to pristine and get it back to him. Then I have to figure out how to get Mark to build me a similar one. Should be enough to keep me busy for a while. Sorry all, short hijack. Later - Peregrino
Peregrino
03-06-2005, 10:46
Psywar - Welcome to the sailing club. You've just volunteered to pour money into a hole in the water (rifle). The reason the current crop of DMRs includes the M-14/M-21 is availability and cost (to the military - armsrooms still have a fair number of them, all they have to do is buy optics/mounts and scrounge magazines). Personally, if I were to purchase a new rifle for your hypothetical use, I would stick with an AR-10 (Armalite) or a BAR-10 (Bushmaster). The SEALs explored the same concept 10-12 (?) years ago and got SR-25s. Nice idea, not so nice gun (ask Longrange for his opinion, it's colorful!). Since then Armalite has put a fair amount of work into the AR-10. To see what really works you should go to some of the NRA High Power matches and look at what the good shooters are using. If it's not a .223, it's usually some calibre varient of the AR-10. The only M1As/M1Gs on the line are usually newbies or an oldtimer shooting for the fun of it. Some of the advantages of the .308 AR style weapons include: same ergonomics you're already used to, (roughly) 60% parts commonality, sub MOA accuracy - usually out of the box, the ability to accessorize, a 7.62/.308 based cartridge that can be necked to a variety of ballistically superior calibres, and a rock-solid scope mounting system (flat-top rail, just like the M-4s). The only drawback to the AR-10 is magazines, that's why I included the BAR-10 in the discussion. Unfortunately Bushmaster isn't making a match version (yet) and friends say there are still some growing pains. Armalite was talking about doing something about the magazine problem now that the AWB has sunset, we'll see what happens. Just my .02, FWIW - Peregrino
Trip_Wire (RIP)
03-06-2005, 12:55
I have carried M-14's, jumped with them. I never got to like them much. Maybe because the first time I jumped with one it broke at the small of the stock, which reduced it to a useless POS. I was impressed with the accuracy of the M-21's that we had, but seldom got the chance to use them.
My experience in the SWAT LEO business with civilian models of the M-14 wasn't very convincing either. I saw a lot of police snipers, who wanted a semi-auto sniper rifle try to make them into a sniper rifle. (I never tried it myself.) They spent a lot of money doing this. They, usually after spending all this money, wound up with rifle that was not up to the standard of the bolt guns that we used or the HK sniper system we had.
In my team we had two sniper rifles to start with. One was the Austrian Styer bolt action rifle (SSG69) with a set trigger and Kales scope. This rifle shot well right out of the box. The only modification we made on it was a harris bi-pod. The other rifle was a full auto H&K Sniper version of the G-33 (5.56) with all the sniper equipment at that time that H&K provided with the rifle. It was a very nice set-up at of the box as well.
I wasn't a sniper; however, I liked to have an accurate long distance rifle in 7.62 to back up the the HK 93 (5.56) I normally carried on missions. So, I purchased a HK 91 and since I was the Team Leader and did a lot of purchasing with HK, through the Department, I orderd all the equipment that normally came with the G-3 (7.62) sniper rifle they sold. Zwiss 3x6 sniper scope w/rubber eye cup & Cip on mount, adjustable stock and bipod. I already had the collapsing stock and both the tactical 3 point sling and the leather one. I also sent the trigger system out for adjustment. (Note: Both HKs were owned by me not the department. In fact I still have both.)
I found that this HK 91 equipped this way, was everything I wanted in a semi-auto sniper rifle. In matchs with other SWAT Teams to include their snipers the HK 91 held it's own against bolt guns and shot a lot better then M-14s (M1As) that guys had sunk a lot of $$ into. Of course HK didn't give the stuff away that I bought either.
The HK 93 that I carried on missions, I equipped with the early Aimpoint mounted on HK's Clip on mount and I had another mount with 3x9 Redfield widefield range finder scope. I kept the Aimpoint mounted on it. I also have both stocks for it; however; kept the normal stock on it. I found it to be more accurate then the AR-15s on the team. Although I had a 40 Rd Mag. I didn't use it much...not good in prone position.
Our team was buying their own weapons, because the department wasn't giving us any money to equip the team with the weapons we needed. So, usually I purchased various rifles and pistols and evaluated them. (Thats why I have a lot of weapons.) I would then suggest the weapon to the others. At the time, I was pretty sold on HK stuff. Our first issue .45 was the HK P9S (.45) based on my recommendations. It was a great pistol! I still like HK stuff.
Perhaps, a good look at the AR-10s in 7.62 is good advice! Or a HK 91 if you could find one!
:munchin
Gents,
Sorry, PC crashed and I was off of the net for awhile. Definately some good experience talking here. I appriciate everyones imput. I havent purchased the weapon yet. I did decide on Fultons Peerless M14 with Mac stock and a Leupold M3 (thanks TR). What has stopped me is the mount issue. As I said to Peregrino, I dont want to drop that kind of cash on the piece and tube, only to have a scope that has more jiggles than Charo. So, I am setting the idea aside until I can either come up with a satisfactory mount solution, and if I cant, I will have to come up with another option.
Tripwire, I do agree with you on H&K (my duty sidearm is a USP .45). I have three semi 7.62 throwers (standard M1A, Belgium FAL and HK91) that all could be made into good mid-long range shooters, but I wanted the gun to be a dedicated glass gun, and I get wayyyyyyyyy to much enjoyment shooting them iron sights (I can hear it now...."hes got more money than sense"). I never used an M21 in the field, but have used the hell out of my M1A, and its never had a problem. Guess I just have a soft spot for the old girl, and naturally leaned that way for the long range piece.
I have heard that the new AR style 7.62's (AR10, SR25, etc) are the way to go, but Ive got no experience with these, and no aqaintances that do. I would welcome anyones experience with these. How is reliablility? Durability? Parts availibilty (especially mags)? I imagine that the rail system is as sturdy as it is on my M4/Aimpoint. Ive heard that accuracy is even better than a NM M14 (1 MOA and in some cases sub-MOA), but would like to have a complete picture how it works in the mud, sand, etc. (I know the M21, as do most weapons when "tightened up", the finicky level goes way up). Anyway, Ive babbled enough. Any/all advice is appriciated. Thanks gentlemen.