View Full Version : SF troops offered monster bonuses to stay
brewmonkey
02-04-2005, 18:48
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=2&u=/ap/20050205/ap_on_re_us/us_special_operations
Looks like someone finally pulled their head out of their fourth point of contact and has come up with at least someplace to start.
I think the bonuses are a nice plus but I would like to see more in the monthly pay structure. $375 harldy seems like much and I can still some soldiers making the choice to leave. Of course these are just my thoughts so that and $4.75 will get you a cup of coffee.
Bill Harsey
02-04-2005, 18:59
Well earned, well deserved.
I think this has been discussed but IMHO the good SF troops they are looking for don't need bonuses to stay. I wouldn't turn it down but I never re-enlisted for no foogin bonus -- if there was one. :lifter If soldiers with 10 years+ service are looking to get out, the problem isn't money. I speak from personal experience. I got out after 15 years and no amount of money would have changed my mind. I went in at the beginning of the VN war and my last ETS came after a period of uselessness. I guess it could be said that I didn't adapt to the peace time army. If the war had lasted three more years I would probably have re-enlisted and retired. I was offered a lot of things but the only thing I wanted was "OUT"!!
The incentives for continued employment progress from money for the newbies to training and job satisfaction and security as one progresses. It takes money sometimes to lure new recruits, but it takes more than money to retain good personnel. This is a perpetual problem in civilian life as well as military.
Sorry to belabor the point but let me give an example. My first ETS occured in Germany and I re-enlisted to go from Signal Company to a "Line" company.
My second ETS occured in Panama and I was a SCUBA/SAR instructor and I re-enlisted.
My final ETS occured at Ft. Bragg during the post-war doldrums and I hung it up.
Ironically, since I was LA qualified and a member of the 7th I just missed the involvement in LA that may have caused me to re-enlist.
Notice I enlisted for assignments and not $$$. :lifter
IMHO the good SF troops they are looking for don't need bonuses to stay. .
In that respect you are right. For most SF guys it's not the money; it's the job. If i've read the directive right this new incentive is being offered to guys who have 19 or more years in Grp. At that point the job becomes less to them than it once was. Therefore, an incentive is a good thing.
EX-Gold Falcon
02-05-2005, 12:25
While somewhat off topic (though it is about special pay) How about making some changes with who actually needs to be on jump status (and thus receive jump pay) and using a portion of those funds to increase the jump pay for others?
I'm sure I'm not the first to bring up this subject. The 82nd has around 17,000 troopers (if I'm off feel free to correct this error) and from personal experience for at least 30-40% of personal, there is neither a tactical nor strategic need for them to be on jump status. While jumping is part & parcel of being in the 82nd, at the end of the day parachute drops are training. ie: Training for combat.
Therefore if a soldier is not directly assigned to either a combat arms unit or direct combat support (Riggers would be an exception), there does not exist a tactical need for them to train in a skill-set that will never be employed.
Within 5-7 years, the cost-savings from jump pay, jump school, aircraft maintenance/fuel, parachutes, reduced injuries, etc would be considerable. All forms of jump pay (static & freefall) could easily be doubled, while still spending less overall.
That is my thought, and may the debate begin!
Travis
Travis: You have some points. OTOH it has been demonstrated that regardless of MOS, airborne troops have a certain Esperit de Corps. I remember when they had "Legs" in support of Training group (mostly spoons) we tormented the shit out of them. I think you will find that troopers will do a better job of supporting you than would Legs. Give it some serious thought and I think that youy really don't want to open that can of worms.
EX-Gold Falcon
02-05-2005, 14:18
Travis: You have some points. OTOH it has been demonstrated that regardless of MOS, airborne troops have a certain Esperit de Corps. I remember when they had "Legs" in support of Training group (mostly spoons) we tormented the shit out of them. I think you will find that troopers will do a better job of supporting you than would Legs. Give it some serious thought and I think that youy really don't want to open that can of worms.
Hmm. Yes and no. Life in a line company was pretty secular. While I came across plenty of support people on a regular basis most of the time it was not for an official reason. Combat arms tended to deal with fellow combat arms and direct combat support. It was the rare occasion when I might have to head to the "hill", the hospital, out of unit supply, etc.
While I understand your example of shooters & support esperit de corp, it still dificult to see the need for them to be on jump status when those funds could potentially be better utilized somewhere else. Kind of a expense vs return issue.
Perhaps current jump status support staff could be grandfathered in till the end of their current enlistment, and all new support soldiers would not be airborne. Help sooth the waters, so to speak.
Travis
NousDefions794
03-25-2005, 13:56
I am insulted at the feeble attempt of bribery. The bottom line is that the Pentagon knows Special Operations Warriors stay because of:
-Camraderie
-Attitude: Striving to be the Best
-Candor and Integrity
-Motivation
-Job Satisfaction
But instead of focusing on the above (which would mean doing the right thing) they insist on paying people off. Bottom line: Let guys do their jobs (without hassles) and they will stay.
magician
03-26-2005, 03:16
shit.
I think yanking jump pay and jump status from all those REMFs makes a ton of sense.
You are definitely talking about saving a lot of money. When you consider that you could downsize the Airborne School at Ft. Benning....reduce the amount of flying that the Air Force does simply to support all those unneeded jumps....
This makes a lot of sense.
When I am emperor, I will make it so.
Good idea.
:)
brownapple
03-26-2005, 06:24
They talked about that back in the late 70s, early 80s. And canned the idea. Because if you reduce the number of troops going through jumpschool by too much, Congress will (or at least that was the concern then), cut off the funding for it all together. Of course, that was at a time when the last combat jump had been more than 10 years before, the last contested combat jump about 30 years before and there was a great deal of question of whether parachute operations were a viable method for getting troops into combat anymore. Anyway, the solution at the time given the reduced number of troops requiring jump school(remember that the 101st as a whole came off of jump status when they returned from Vietnam and the 1st, 3d, 6th and 8th Groups were all stood down) was to open jump school up to more people, and so we ended up with women attending, lots of cadets, used at a recruiting/re-enlistment incentive, etc.
Instead of downsizing jumpschool, maybe some of those support units should be made up of 5 jump chumps... graduates of jump school who are thereby familiar with airborne operations, who are not legs, but whose units are not on jump status because they will not be inserted by parachute into combat.
I won't argue with anyone but I will state that $200,000 is not a lot of money and would not turn my head either way all things being equal.
Look at it after taxes and split into payments payed out in 4-6 years and you may see what I mean.
The men and their families will earn every penny of it IMHO.
ND794 hit the nail on the head. The problem is that people do not listen. We could write a book as long as "War and Peace" on this subject alone.
Just my thoughts and not meant to offend anyone. :)
Doc
if a shortstop is worth $25M per year, i can see a $200K bonus for a professional soldier...
brewmonkey
03-26-2005, 18:29
if a shortstop is worth $25M per year, i can see a $200K bonus for a professional soldier...
I just had a conversation with my 11 year old on this subject after he asked how much soldiers made.
The Reaper
03-26-2005, 18:33
I just had a conversation with my 11 year old on this subject after he asked how much soldiers made.
Best answer I could give is, "Not enough, Son."
TR
brewmonkey
03-26-2005, 19:12
Best answer I could give is, "Not enough, Son."
TR
Very close to what I said. I think he now appreciates that much more the soldiers who do the job. It really should sink in this week when we have 2 RC units return from A-Stan of which many of his classmates have parents in the units.
NousDefions794
03-27-2005, 13:34
Instead of offering us bonuses they should be letting us do our jobs.
-I've stood next to charges and felt the overpressure as doors blew apart.
-I've stayed in 5 star hotels and slept under ponchos in jungles.
-I've jumped out of airplanes & helos.
-I've flown extended from a rope over cities at night.
-I've fast roped onto moving ships in the middle of oceans.
-I've received training from world class instructors.
-I've done........well you get the picture by now.
Bottom line, I'd do it all for free! Just let us do our jobs and with out the politics.
The Reaper
03-27-2005, 14:04
Part of the politics can't be fixed and part of it won't be fixed.
Why not do the same cool stuff for $250,000 per year rather than $50,000 per year? Mama needs new drapes and the lids need braces.
We must be the minority here, because I saw a lot of troops bailing early and taking the big money to go to the Box.
How many guys are over 20 years in, saw no more promotions or really good deals, or had no savings, or had family issues, so they decided to make some good money while they still could, and get a nest egg for a new start?
Several of the dead contractors are guys who did just that. The Separation Centers are jammed with SF guys doing just that.
Let's not kid ourselves. Reality check. For some, the money matters, even if it only shows that the Army values them enough to compensate them for it, just like doctors, aviators, etc.
Just my observations.
TR
NousDefions794
03-27-2005, 14:33
Reaper,
Understood and I can agree with you to some extent. Seen lots of guys blow their money and have nothing after 20. If the money is offerd, take it. I just think the money could be better spent to keep SF guys.
The politics won't go away, but if we stick to our guns, we can have "small victories." Telling people what they want to hear is what the conventional forces do, not Special Forces.
As far as people getting out for the money, don't think that all of the guys getting out are doing it to just to make money. A lot of guys are getting out to go over as civilians because they couldn't go back with the military. They believe in what we are doing and operate with less red tape.
The Separation Centers are jammed with SF guys doing just that.TR
No kidding there. It looked like a SF reunion when I left two years ago.
The Separation Center was so appreciative of our service they even had a friendly lady to help us. :rolleyes:
Guys vote with their feet.
Doc
Instead of offering us bonuses they should be letting us do our jobs...Bottom line, I'd do it all for free! Just let us do our jobs and with out the politics.
you can't change what passes for adult leadership...it was an issue 11 years ago when i retired, it was an issue 34 years ago when my dad retired...
you do dangerous work in a dangerous world...you are willing to endure conditions most wouldn't think of...you take risks, big risks...
i re-upped twice before OCS, no bonus...no bonuses as an officer...it took damn near 10 years to adapt to life without an Army to go to...
if your desire is to stay in SF, do dangerous things, go dangerous places, meet new and exciting people and kill them in my name, please....TAKE THE MONEY ...you're probably worth every penny...
speaking from the point of view as a retired usta-be, current taxpayer...
The past few posts remind me of a saying we had: :"And to think civilians have to pay to do this shit!!!" :lifter
Kyobanim
04-06-2005, 09:18
Heard this report (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4577982) this morning.
Click the listen button to get it. Not really any new information but interviews of operators and Military pers in the know. Heck, some of you probably know the people interviewed.