View Full Version : Dallas Fort Worth Police shoots civilian at home...
Basenshukai
10-15-2019, 08:52
On the early morning of 12 October, Dallas Fort Worth police officer Aaron Dean shot a woman at her home when he saw her at her window at 2am while performing a wellness check. I won't post the body cam video here, but you can find it all over YT and it just shows the officer moving outside the home with his firearm drawn and a flashlight. This comes just weeks after the sentencing of Dallas police officer Amber Guyer for shooting another innocent civilian at his own apartment.
It appears that police officer Aaron Dean was startled when saw the woman at her window. He did not identify himself as a LEO, shouted "show me your hands" (window was closed, by the way, so she may have not heard him well enough), and shot her. There was zero escalation of force. And, heck, he was supposed to just swing by for a wellness check. From seeing her to shooting her I think maybe two seconds elapsed. She had no weapons on her person and was in her own home.
We have discussed this as a forum in the past, but, really... WTF are they teaching these officers?! I keep hearing this mantra of "the most important thing is that the officers come home alive to their families" and I think this is total BS.
Certainly, I would prefer that every police officer comes home in one piece every day, but their primary job is to safeguard the citizenry and uphold the law. I think a small, but significant number, of LEOs are increasingly untrained, scared out of their wits, and should just not be out there with a firearm. :mad:
That is an absolutely disgusting and maddening article to sit and read through. IMO, there is way too much reliance being taught today in reference to the use of tasers, pepper spray and weapons versus "mentality." That breeds a form of cowardice and fear that reveals itself in situations like this one. Fear can be a killer for all parties involved in the field of LE.
bblhead672
10-15-2019, 09:50
I think a small, but significant number, of LEOs are increasingly untrained, scared out of their wits, and should just not be out there with a firearm. :mad:
I agree, just not sure that the number is as small as it should be.
Former Ft Worth Police Officer Aaron Dean charged with murder.
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article236195198.html
Maybe if a few police chiefs and city officials are held personally responsible for the illegal acts of their employees things would change.
In early August, an Arlington, TX (city next to Ft. Worth) police officer killed a woman while shooting at a dog running at him.
https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article233429077.html
Both of these incidents happened within a few miles of my home.
Old Dog New Trick
10-15-2019, 09:57
So many things wrong with this situation that I feel sorry for everyone that created the environment that led to this tragic and unfortunate death.
The officer F’d up and he should pay a worthy price for this error and the department should pay a hefty price for the training they must have developed that places so much fear in the way police are trained and deployed. (Not unique to this department, but everywhere.)
There will be no winners in the outcome of this case, only loss, and a community that will take years to heal if ever.
With each passing event trust in law enforcement is eroded to the point where it becomes meaningless and counterproductive.
blam blam blam blam blam
FREEEEZE !!!
...blam
blam blam blam blam blam
FREEEEZE !!!
...blam
hahah! My signature line is going to be filled up with Box quotes!
It looks like there may be more to this story (as usual) :munchin
A murder warrant for Aaron Dean, the Fort Worth officer who killed Atatiana Jefferson, tells what led up to the shooting from the perspective of her 8-year-old nephew, who was in the room with her when she was shot.
The boy told a forensic interviewer that he and his aunt were playing video games together about 2:30 a.m. Saturday when she heard noises outside. She took her handgun from her purse and pointed it “toward the window” before she was shot, the nephew said, according to the arrest-warrant affidavit.
The 8-year-old saw his aunt fall to the ground. Jefferson, 28, was pronounced dead at 3:05 a.m.
Interim Police Chief Ed Kraus said at a news conference Tuesday that it “makes sense that she would have a gun if she felt that she was being threatened or there was someone in the backyard.”
That sentiment was echoed by an attorney for Jefferson’s family. Lee Merritt said Jefferson had every right to defend herself. The officers did not announce themselves as law enforcement.
Source (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/10/15/atatiana-jefferson-pointed-gun-out-window-before-fort-worth-officer-killed-her-nephew-told-authorities/)
How many here would investigate a flashlight and mumbling outside of their house at night (rhetorical)?
That cop shouldn’t have been one.
Peregrino
10-15-2019, 14:55
blam blam blam blam blam
FREEEEZE !!!
...blam
And the "FREEEEEZE" command was so their target would hold still long enough for them to actually hit it.
Examined in isolation, this incident was an avoidable tragedy. Examined in the aggregate, this incident isn't even unusual any more. Personally, I think cops are like any other group; easy to plot on a Bell Curve. On the right, the genuine Paladins; on the left, the dregs of society - bullies, cowards, sociopaths, etc., except for the badge, indistinguishable from the criminal; in the middle, a decent (no greater flaws than average) human being usually trying to do the right thing (when the personal ramifications aren't overwhelmingly negative). This officer was probably one of the average ones who found himself in a position where his training, experience (rookie), and courage failed him. That makes this twice the tragedy.
The wife has taken to watching the “Live” police programs on satellite (means I get to spend more time hiding in my office – cause those programs just piss me off). While the majority of each episode is straightforward criminals doing criminal “stuff”, every episode also includes one or more interactions that appear to have been escalated beyond any provocation by overly aggressive LEOs, either as a function of their personality or posturing (creating drama) for the camera. Very few show an LEO de-escalating, and while a few are “neutral”, I’ve yet to see one where there’s a positive outcome for the citizen being engaged, regardless of how minor the supposed “infraction”. Bluntly – based on the examples presented in these shows, there is no encounter between a citizen and law enforcement that cannot be manipulated into a bad outcome for the citizen.
Officer Friendly ranks right up there with the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause. Given their “state sanctioned” ability to wield lethal force, the potentially deadly friction points in any encounter between law enforcement and the public are numerous. Simple "human nature" (see Stanford Prison Experiment) makes LEO vs. Citizen conflict inevitable. Add the negative aspects of personality, politics, prejudices, training deficiencies/scars, and the overwhelming quantity of "Malum Prohibitum" laws that criminalize virtually everything and the potential for a disastrous outcome is present in EVERY citizen interaction with law enforcement. Add the fact that law enforcement appears notoriously inept (indifferent, unmotivated, "laws are for other people", etc.) at policing themselves (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?), the only safe course of action is avoidance.
Texas_Shooter
10-15-2019, 15:18
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/10/15/atatiana-jefferson-pointed-gun-out-window-before-fort-worth-officer-killed-her-nephew-told-authorities/
It is Texas and we enjoy our Second Amendment, along with Texas Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. The Castle Doctrine is well in place in our state and it is normal to hear about individuals firing on would be robbers breaking into homes.
Like several of you have said this was a preventable, avoidable situation.
IMO he will get acquitted of the charges because he will use the defense that he felt his life was in danger because she had a firearm in her hand, pointing it at the window.
...On the right, the genuine Paladins; on the left, the dregs of society - bullies, cowards, sociopaths, etc., except for the badge, indistinguishable from the criminal; in the middle, a decent (no greater flaws than average) human being usually trying to do the right thing (when the personal ramifications aren't overwhelmingly negative). This officer was probably one of the average ones who found himself in a position where his training, experience (rookie), and courage failed him. That makes this twice the tragedy....
Very well said, indeed! I couldn't agree more.
Old Dog New Trick
10-15-2019, 16:25
This is as I see it a training failure. I’ll let the defense of the officer rest with the courts and the investigative process.
On face value both officers responded inappropriately to the call out which makes another observation necessary...what was the dispatchers words or code entered for response? (Welfare check or burglary in process?)
Whatever happened to knocking on the front door and announcing “Police, is anybody home?”
IMO The police and this officer violated the victim’s Constitutional rights and became the prowler not the protector when he (they) entered the backyard unannounced. Just plain stupid!
Play stupid games win stupid prizes!
bblhead672
10-15-2019, 16:30
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/10/15/atatiana-jefferson-pointed-gun-out-window-before-fort-worth-officer-killed-her-nephew-told-authorities/
It is Texas and we enjoy our Second Amendment, along with Texas Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. The Castle Doctrine is well in place in our state and it is normal to hear about individuals firing on would be robbers breaking into homes.
Like several of you have said this was a preventable, avoidable situation.
IMO he will get acquitted of the charges because he will use the defense that he felt his life was in danger because she had a firearm in her hand, pointing it at the window.
The linked article also states that she had a TX License to Carry.
We do have the 'castle doctrine" in Texas, but the requirements for justified use of deadly force have to be met. For a mere civilian with an LTC, "feeling threatened" by someone hasn't fulfilled justification for the use of deadly force.
In my own home and yard, if something goes bump in the night, or the doorbell rings, I hold my pistol behind my back. Too many trigger happy cops out there who cannot grasp the fact that citizens have a legal right to be armed inside their homes and that fact doesn't justify getting shot by a nervous cop.
Texas_Shooter
10-15-2019, 16:55
The linked article also states that she had a TX License to Carry.
We do have the 'castle doctrine" in Texas, but the requirements for justified use of deadly force have to be met. For a mere civilian with an LTC, "feeling threatened" by someone hasn't fulfilled justification for the use of deadly force.
In my own home and yard, if something goes bump in the night, or the doorbell rings, I hold my pistol behind my back. Too many trigger happy cops out there who cannot grasp the fact that citizens have a legal right to be armed inside their homes and that fact doesn't justify getting shot by a nervous cop.
Yes you are correct she still had not fulfilled the justification under castle doctrine but she had the right to have a firearm in here hand while inside here own home because she had heard noises from outside.
The officer though is a different story. IMO he will come through this with no issues because she had the firearm in her hand and he felt in fear for his life.
Yes you are correct she still had not fulfilled the justification under castle doctrine but she had the right to have a firearm in here hand while inside here own home because she had heard noises from outside.
The officer though is a different story. IMO he will come through this with no issues because she had the firearm in her hand and he felt in fear for his life.
Well if he thought he would get cleared why did he quit? He refused to talk to investigators also.
I will wager he is going on a USG VACATION FOR A FEW YERS......
Just my take so far. I am sitting back and waiting for the process to run it’s course before making a decision.....
The linked article also states that she had a TX License to Carry.
We do have the 'castle doctrine" in Texas, but the requirements for justified use of deadly force have to be met. For a mere civilian with an LTC, "feeling threatened" by someone hasn't fulfilled justification for the use of deadly force.
In my own home and yard, if something goes bump in the night, or the doorbell rings, I hold my pistol behind my back. Too many trigger happy cops out there who cannot grasp the fact that citizens have a legal right to be armed inside their homes and that fact doesn't justify getting shot by a nervous cop.
She never fired. She was in her own home. She did nothing wrong.
You hiding your gun is simply smart. But not doing that is a.) not illegal and b.) shouldn't be a death sentence
Yes you are correct she still had not fulfilled the justification under castle doctrine but she had the right to have a firearm in here hand while inside here own home because she had heard noises from outside.
The officer though is a different story. IMO he will come through this with no issues because she had the firearm in her hand and he felt in fear for his life.
Disagree. Why was the officer in fear for his life? He shouldn't have been. He was on a simple welfare check. It is not unreasonable to expect that a homeowner would arm him/herself at night when hearing/seeing suspicious people immediately outside the house.
So, would the woman have been in the right to smoke those police officers because they were outside the window? Of course not. Then why, oh why, should Police get a free pass for shooting someone inside a private residence?
We need to do a better job of selecting and training police officers in this country.
Police do not equal military. The rules are different. The priorities are different. Just like they are in a military hostage/prisoner/sensitive item recovery operation... when conducting a rescue or any other sort of mission to grab something sensitive.. the safety of the assault force members is secondary to the safety of the subject of the mission. Rules of war totally allow an infantry unit in combat to breach a door with an AT4 to kill those inside and reduce risk to the assault force, but that would be no bueno if trying to rescue a hostage...
Not germane to this subject, but related, I don't support camo uniforms being worn by any civilian LEOs.
Just out of curiosity - is it common to move around with gun drawn and presented in the manner depicted in the body cam video during a "welfare check" ???
...I dont know what a welfare check is, but I rarely carried my firearm in that same position when I was moving around in buildings in Mosul Iraq.
asking for a friend
Old Dog New Trick
10-16-2019, 07:19
Only if your intent is to shoot someone.
I've done hundreds of welfare checks and never unholstered my weapon unless I saw a bloody body inside the residence or something along those lines that may have warranted lethal force. It will be up to him to explain his reasoning as to why he acted the way he did when he pulled that trigger.
bblhead672
10-18-2019, 08:01
She never fired. She was in her own home. She did nothing wrong.
You hiding your gun is simply smart. But not doing that is a.) not illegal and b.) shouldn't be a death sentence
Guess I didn't express myself clearly...I meant the officer did not fulfill the justification for deadly force. Being scared is not a justification in the penal code.
Certainly we all have the right to self defense of our home without fear of being gunned down by a frightened badge wearer outside our window.
Too many police are too quick to pull the trigger because "fear".
Guess I didn't express myself clearly...I meant the officer did not fulfill the justification for deadly force. Being scared is not a justification in the penal code.
Certainly we all have the right to self defense of our home without fear of being gunned down by a frightened badge wearer outside our window.
Too many police are too quick to pull the trigger because "fear".
Agree!