View Full Version : US troops start pullout in Syria as Turkey prepares operation
Splain this to me, Lucy??
This does not sound like a good deal for our allies, the Kurds??
:mad:
US troops start pullout in Syria as Turkey prepares operation
American troops 'will no longer be in the immediate area' casting uncertainty on the fate of their Kurdish allies.
US troops began withdrawing from northeast Syria ahead of a Turkish invasion that Kurdish fighters say will overturn the victory over the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or ISIS) armed group.
Washington's forces "will not support or be involved in the [Turkish] operation" and "will no longer be in the immediate area", White House Press Secretary Stephanie Grisham said in a statement.
It was not clear whether that meant the United States would withdraw its 1,000 or so troops completely from northern Syria.
"Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long-planned operation into northern Syria," said the statement.
A US official told Reuters news agency US forces had on Monday evacuated two observation posts at Tel Abyad and Ras al Ain in northeast Syria, along the Turkish border. Other US troops in the region were still in position for now, the official said.
The withdrawal marks a major shift in US policy and effectively abandons a US ally in the battle against ISIL, which took over swathes of Syria before being defeated a year ago.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/white-house-turkey-military-operation-northern-syria-191007034354242.html
“Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” Sherlock Holmes
Both Turkey and the US are NATO "Allies".
Who does the rest of NATO side with if we get in a dust up?
Both Turkey and the US are NATO "Allies".
Who does the rest of NATO side with if we get in a dust up?
A conundrum of biblical proportions
and then add in the Christian Yazidi Genocide :mad::mad::mad:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Yazidis_by_ISIL
spottedmedic111
10-07-2019, 10:32
I'm afraid this is an example of a relationship (e.g. Kurds) our military has nurtured and continues to value that is not shared by the public (translated into political will), mostly because they're not well informed. Politicians who don't heed military advice may gain in the short term, but perhaps regret it later.
The Kurds are our partner force, not our allies. The Turks, whether we like it or not, are our NATO Allies. On top of all of that, those ISIS prisoners are a problem best left to be dealt with by an entity in that region who knows what and how to do what needs done.
Problem from day one as I see it, is that supporting the Kurds meant indirectly supporting/making a Kurd nation. Wouldn't that require parts of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey?? Lotsa bad feeling doing that. It would be land locked.
Problem from day one as I see it, is that supporting the Kurds meant indirectly supporting/making a Kurd nation. Wouldn't that require parts of Iran, Iraq, and Turkey?? Lotsa bad feeling doing that. It would be land locked.
Yes - but even if it was only formed from one of the countries none of the others would agree. It would give the Kurds a secure place to launch activities from into the other regions.
PedOncoDoc
10-07-2019, 13:59
Yes - but even if it was only formed from one of the countries none of the others would agree. It would give the Kurds a secure place to launch activities from into the other regions.
Would it also force Iran and Iraq to divide their attentions between the new nation and Israel? If this were to occur, what would be the likelihood of an alliance between the Kurdish nation and Israel?
Yes - but even if it was only formed from one of the countries none of the others would agree. It would give the Kurds a secure place to launch activities from into the other regions.
Concur. Getting involved in the Balkans might be simpler. Feel for the Kurds though.
WarriorDiplomat
10-07-2019, 23:10
Concur. Getting involved in the Balkans might be simpler. Feel for the Kurds though.
We can blame the Kurds not having a recognized homeland on the League of Nations and the arbitrary new nations they divided up without an in depth understanding of the groups within the borders who were ignored....Africa has the same issues with their ethic groups who are transient and ungovernable...only those placed in power and the rest of the worlds governments recognize the borders but all the minority groups are left to fend for themselves the Assyrians the Chaldeans the Kurds the Toauregs etc.....are all left flapping. The thing frustrating about our involvement with the Kurds is our government used them and we the U.S. soldiers were the ones telling them we had their back selling it like Amway ignoring the reality of we were going to leave them behind and our promises that emboldened them to action were empty. I understand the Kurds in Iraq are living in their homelands which expands into Iran, Turkey, Azerbeijan? etc....but they are hardheaded when it comes to even discussing moving to either country where the Kurds number 30-40 million where they have safety in numbers unlike Iraq where there are only 5 million or so. We better understand the emptiness of our governments promises but the people we promise live and die by it.
As far as taking land and giving it to the Kurds Iraq is he only nation weak enough and new enough to do it in but today Iraq is a proxy Iranian government
This is a re-post of mine I left on a friend’s FB account.
I’m so sick and f’n tired of hearing “those poor Kurds”..... They are COMMUNISTS and are NOT our allies. As much as I don’t like a lot of what the Turks are doing / have done, they ARE our Allies. On top of all of that, in one fail swoop, POTUS just helped cut the land bridge with LH and Iran, forced the Turks to deal with the ISIL issue they helped to create in Syria, and forced Russia to think through their involvement in the region due to the real threat of a NATO Allied country of Turkey (a known wild card) acting in the region. So yeah, Win, Win, Win. And ohh yeah, I‘m really tired of seeing my Brothers get maimed and killed in a messy and often times pointless endeavor.
Bottom-line: Never fall in love with your Indig, they are not the mission, but simply a tool to accomplish it. Any GB who doesn’t understand that we are making Tactical decisions to influence the Operational Environment in support of the Strategic Goals set by National Policy needs to go back to the line unit from which he came and pull gate guard.
Another thought. How well has the suppression of the Kurds inside Turkey gone?? Does letting the turks into Syria just bleed out the Turks??
bushmaster11
10-08-2019, 08:03
In the course of history, The US has been a staunch ally.As an older SF, I remember Viet Nam and our montagnard partners. We, the entire 5th Group benefited from the total support from each tribe. We knew it was wrong and tried to make it right in our own way. The Kurds are no different. They are a minority who just want to be left alone. We armed them, trained them and led them then our government betrayed them. Like 45 years ago, we bailed on them. No, the SF community did not bail, but the United States did led by a corrupt leader with power to spare. How can a Secretary of State, a West Point graduate break their code - "I will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do"
Basenshukai
10-08-2019, 08:27
“America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”
Henry Kissinger
Old Dog New Trick
10-08-2019, 08:31
Bubba is 100% correct on this. While it does suck for the Kurds ‘again’ it sucks less than the contemptuous media and “current and former” military leaders condemning the President who ‘IS NOT MAKING THIS DECISION ON HIS OWN’ and has been briefed by current and present experts who don’t rely on “feelings” to make foreign policy decisions from people like John Bolten.
This is from December 2018, so it appears that the idea has been germinating for some time.
americanthinker.com
The Kurd in the Punch Bowl
By Brandon J. Weichert
President Donald J. Trump's recent announcement that he is withdrawing the 2,000 American troops stationed in Syria has sent shockwaves throughout the nation's capital. A bipartisan consensus has formed that Trump not only erred, but has abandoned America's erstwhile friends, the Kurds, to be slaughtered by America's NATO partner, Turkey. This is simply inaccurate. The Kurds do share close ties with the United States. Despite this, however, no American president has ever vindicated the Kurdish dream of an independent sovereign state. Trump is not at all different.
The Kurds are the largest stateless people in the world, sharing a contiguous landmass that cuts across territory controlled by Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Azerbaijan. Like so many oppressed ethnic minorities before them, the Kurds have long envisaged their own country. Unfortunately, partitioning the requisite territory for creating such an independent state would mean disaster. (After all, the partitioning of India, of the Mandate of Palestine, and Sudan have led to nothing but trouble for the world.)
Turkey sits atop the largest part of the Kurdish population. Relinquishing the Kurdish-dominated southern part of Turkey would mean kissing nearly two thirds of the Turks' massive country goodbye. Northern Iraq, northeast Syria, northern Iran, and southwestern Azerbaijan would also suffer massive territorial losses.
Many people sympathetic to the Kurdish cause (such as this author, for the record) have often lamented the injustice that such a large ethnic group with a shared culture, history, and language should be subdivided among five countries that are mostly hostile to them. Few of us have taken the time to consider the geopolitical implications of such notions. It would be a moral good to midwife Kurdish independence. But the costs – specifically to American servicemen – would be onerous.
Do you believe that Iran, Syria, Turkey, or even Iraq or Azerbaijan would simply shrug as large parts of its country were removed by the United States and handed over to a Kurdish government only just getting itself together?
We shouldn't forget also that Turkey is an actual ally – a NATO partner, no less – whereas there is no Kurdistan. Unfortunately, the time for imposing such a new order in the chaotic Middle East has come and gone. That moment was in 1991, when George H.W. Bush decided to "liberate" autocratic Kuwait from the clutches of the (until that time) nominal American client, the equally autocratic Iraq. When Bush opted to (prematurely) end Desert Storm, leaving Saddam Hussein in power in Iraq, the decision was also made to abandon the Kurds to their fate.
Because of this cold decision, the Kurds were slaughtered en masse by Saddam's forces. Yes, America spent the 1990s providing a no-fly zone in northern Iraq, which allowed for the creation of a quasi-independent Kurdish state there. Yet no American leader ever embraced the concept of an actual independent Kurdish state – especially given the implications for Turkey.
Another moment came and went for an American-backed Kurdish state in northern Iraq when George W. Bush toppled Saddam Hussein's regime. Despite the resounding victory the Bush administration enjoyed in 2003, there was no plan to fundamentally redraw the borders of the region to make it more egalitarian (by recognizing the sovereignty of the various ethno-religious groups that existed in the Mideast). Failure to do that consigned the Kurds to nothing more than a subordinate population in the various countries whose territory they lived in.
When President Donald Trump took over the government, he too had the opportunity to honor the Kurds by granting them a state. After all, they had done much fighting on America's behalf against ISIS. Their commitment to that fight was hardly selfless: they had hoped that standing against ISIS as vociferously as they did would win the hearts and minds of Americans, who would, in turn, support Kurdish independence after the defeat of ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Plus ISIS was disproportionately slaughtering the Kurdish populations of the region – meaning that the Kurds had little choice but to defend themselves.
Also, the Kurds are not entirely Americans in waiting. They have a long track record of terrorism and kidnapping. While they are mostly Muslims, they are ideological Marxists. Until recently, the various Kurdish groups supporting Kurdish independence were also listed by the State Department as terrorists for decades. The souring of U.S.-Turkish relations can almost entirely be attributed to America's support of the Kurds.
In the 1990s and early 2000s, the United States enjoyed its position as the unipolar power. Today, however, the world is a multipolar system, in which many great powers vie for dominance. In such a scenario, then, the United States must take a step back from expensive foreign entanglements and engage in diplomacy meant to align itself with other great powers (such as Turkey).
I have firm faith that the Kurds will one day get their independence. The day for that is not now. The best solution for the benighted Kurds would be to hunker down in their enclaves and lie in wait until their host nations – particularly those in Syria, Iran, and Turkey – become weak and unable to prevent the call for Kurdish independence. President Trump has made the right decision to acquiesce to the brutal autocrats in Turkey on the matter of the Kurds, if only because the United States needs autocratic Turkey to balance against Russia, China, and Iran more than it needs the Kurds at present.
Welcome, great power politics.
Brandon J. Weichert is a geopolitical analyst who runs The Weichert Report. He is also a contributing editor at American Greatness and a contributor at The American Spectator. Recently, Brandon became an associate producer for America First with Sebastian Gorka, which is set to premiere nationwide on Salem Radio Networks January 1, 2019 from 3 P.M. to 6 P.M. EDT weekdays. Brandon is a former congressional staffer who is working on his doctorate in international relations.
mojaveman
10-08-2019, 11:33
“America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”
Henry Kissinger
Exactly
WarriorDiplomat
10-08-2019, 11:49
Bubba is 100% correct on this. While it does suck for the Kurds ‘again’ it sucks less than the contemptuous media and “current and former” military leaders condemning the President who ‘IS NOT MAKING THIS DECISION ON HIS OWN’ and has been briefed by current and present experts who don’t rely on “feelings” to make foreign policy decisions from people like John Bolten.
We know for the military leaders it isn't about loyalty or need for them it is about glory, career and perpetual war that leads to more ad more and more contracts the Military Industrial Complex. F the leaders just watching video of the people we have been working with shows a lack of effective training which I must say just like Afghanistan there is no doubt a lack of a vision and long term goal from the very beginning which has led to more need to have us there...the self licking ice cream cone I say let the Turks take care of it, mend our relationship rifts with Turkey and get U.S. forces out of there. The strategic value of Syria is to reduce Irans influence in the region as they are fighting proxy battles there just like they did with Iraq let the Tars Tars (Turks) fight them and stabilize the region.
Here is an article written by an old team-mate who is echoing the bigger picture of the Kurd issue. Aside from being a total bad ass, Joe is a great guy and one of the smartest GB’s I’ve ever had the pleasure to serve with.
https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2019/10/07/kent-why-president-trump-should-follow-his-gut-on-foreign-policy/?fbclid=IwAR1MUvH-QDyQsHXzotYzX--FSTEeENQKgpTchM5zELTG-ljqxhUxuy-hLUI
Remington Raidr
10-08-2019, 15:16
just to read this discussion. To hear it from the guys that make it.
Old Dog New Trick
10-08-2019, 18:53
Here is an article written by an old team-mate who is echoing the bigger picture of the Kurd issue. Aside from being a total bad ass, Joe is a great guy and one of the smartest GB’s I’ve ever had the pleasure to serve with.
https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2019/10/07/kent-why-president-trump-should-follow-his-gut-on-foreign-policy/?fbclid=IwAR1MUvH-QDyQsHXzotYzX--FSTEeENQKgpTchM5zELTG-ljqxhUxuy-hLUI
Joe and I must be from the same time period only he was still serving when I departed. I concur with every single point he is making. Spot on!
Someone needs to send this to Linsey Graham and some other so called Republicans.
TacOfficer
10-08-2019, 19:54
Gentlemen,
It's been a very long time since I've posted. I have been observing from afar and have followed this thread.
Thank you for your particular insight into what I have ignorantly concluded to be a complete shit show of circumstances. I do see the merits of pulling out and completely agree that this nation should no longer sacrifice our service members in such a way.
T.O.
Badger52
10-09-2019, 05:31
Here is an article written by an old team-mate who is echoing the bigger picture of the Kurd issue. Aside from being a total bad ass, Joe is a great guy and one of the smartest GB’s I’ve ever had the pleasure to serve with.
https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2019/10/07/kent-why-president-trump-should-follow-his-gut-on-foreign-policy/?fbclid=IwAR1MUvH-QDyQsHXzotYzX--FSTEeENQKgpTchM5zELTG-ljqxhUxuy-hLUIRead that a day or two ago & one of the best summaries for the masses short of an Area Study on the topic, written by someone who has also paid the price in terms of stake in the game.
Who the Kurds are?
There is no simple answer.
Think you're informed?
The dishonest media and mindless, self-serving politicians are flat out lying about the President “betraying” the Kurds.
Bottom line: there are about 4 dozen disparate groups of various Kurdish factions in the Iraq-Turkey-Syria region.
Our allies in Iraq are mostly the Peshmerga, belonging to the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG)—i.e. “The good guys”. We continue to support them.
The Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) i.e. “The Bad Guys”, is a known Marxist/Communist terrorist group that has been actively trying for decades to overthrow the Turkish government In southern Turkey to form their version of a communist Kurdistan.
Although they also fight against ISIS in Syria, they are NOT our allies. It’s their own self-preservation.
Some may be interested in why there are so many players in this corner of the world.
If you squint at the attached map, it looks like the Kurds (there are around 35 MILLION) are in several countries.
Simple answer, The Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire in 1922 screwed up and made some bad decisions about where the borders should be. They completely wrote off the Kurds. Also the Armenians, and Christian Yazidi
link: The Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_the_Ottoman_Empire?fbclid=IwAR3yBB0Gq iA44rlnJXLxYZ-K4KZyTBaHoXP6unlYt9CRqZBBFl-1IErku0U0)
Badger52
10-09-2019, 08:48
Who the Kurds are?
That's a great "nutshell" lesson, will be a revelation to some, heresy to others. As to the latter, hell with 'em.
It's the same lesson Poles had to learn the hardway when they found out their Soviet buddy that drove away the Nazi wasn't their "friend" aka "enemy of my enemy." We are/were convenient to the PKK's purpose; time for a divorce.
Lets not allow facts about the historical significance of the region and its demographics get in the way of a good media narrative.
Shame be upon all of you.
Slingstone
10-09-2019, 08:56
Robin Sage is going to have to add a week of "convincing the Pinelanders we totally won't hang you out to dry" training.
Old Dog New Trick
10-09-2019, 09:12
Obuma and Killary showed great leadership (not) and decisive decision making (not) when leaving a vacuum in the wake of their hasty retreat from Iraq and the creation of new wars in the Middle East, North Africa and Afghanistan. Eventually leading to perma-war!
Trump (aka Orange Man) decisively engaged IS decimating them and liberating the oppressed in the region and withdraws support troops from the front lines after the war ends - bad! (Just ask the media pundits and armchair experts.)
Let’s impeach him for dereliction of duty as CinC next!!! (Little Adam Shitt should be along shortly a microphone is waiting.)
Ret10Echo
10-09-2019, 10:06
Aaaaannnddd... Yeah there it is The "Headline"
‘Huge panic’ as Turkish warplanes bomb Kurdish civilian targets in Syria after US withdrawal: report
Show of hands of those that are surprised by this?
Old Dog New Trick
10-09-2019, 10:45
^^^not surprised at all.
Watching Outnumbered on Fox...David Webb just educated four uninformed talking heads and the one (the Dim voice) got schooled.
The problem with the media is they all think they know more about everything then the rest of us. Even when they collectively know nothing!
Robin Sage is going to have to add a week of "convincing the Pinelanders we totally won't hang you out to dry" training.
They already do - its the part when you go around painting fences and fixing barn doors - aka -demobilization.
Nobody seems to remember that part in the SFQC when you are taught that one of the things that MUST BE DONE is to demobilize your force when the USA is done fighting.
...not when the partner forces are done fighting - when "WE" are done fighting.
Well.... "We" are done fighting.
The love affair with the Kurds is the same type of relationship that gets undercover narcotics agents murdered and buried at sea.
Never fall in love with your surrogates...
This is what happens when you have 20 years worth of senior leaders that have forgetten where they came from at the expense of becoming fascinated with direct action.
They already do - its the part when you go around painting fences and fixing barn doors - aka -demobilization.
Nobody seems to remember that part in the SFQC when you are taught that one of the things that MUST BE DONE is to demobilize your force when the USA is done fighting.
...not when the partner forces are done fighting - when "WE" are done fighting.
Well.... "We" are done fighting.
The love affair with the Kurds is the same type of relationship that gets undercover narcotics agents murdered and buried at sea.
Never fall in love with your surrogates...
This is what happens when you have 20 years worth of senior leaders that have forgetten where they came from at the expense of becoming fascinated with direct action.
Exactly.
We helped them when it helped us. Now it no longer helps us and they are on their own.
Hopefully they "free" the ISIS prisoners in place. If not, i'm sure the Turks will figure out what to do with them. Either way it sounds like a win to me.
Badger52
10-09-2019, 13:27
Watching Outnumbered on Fox...David Webb just educated four uninformed talking heads and the one (the Dim voice) got schooled. That wouldn't be Marie Harf, Kerry's little elitist Spox when he was SECSTATE would it? The one that wouldn't answer a direct question because it would be "far too nuanced" for you illiterate peasants?
Old Dog New Trick
10-09-2019, 13:53
That wouldn't be Marie Harf, Kerry's little elitist Spox when he was SECSTATE would it? The one that wouldn't answer a direct question because it would be "far too nuanced" for you illiterate peasants?
Yep
On a side note watching the ‘news’ today. No one is asking why Turkey is invading Syria to create a buffer zone. Aren’t a country’s borders usually the point at which you don’t violate sovereignty or create acts of war? Anyone think Bashar al Assad might have an opinion about this?
ETA: President Trump just gave a tremendously awesome answer to a reporters question on withdrawing US Forces in Syria. Very powerful speech about the MIC and perma-war and the true costs of fighting.
Badger52
10-09-2019, 15:26
Very powerful speech about the MIC and perma-war and the true costs of fighting.IMO if the suits were a little more circumspect in where & when they throw it, that pointy end of the spear would stay sharper, longer. [makes curmudgeon-like FOG sound]
To think if only Trump were president in 2004 then maybe we would have left Afghanistan after achieving most if not all of our national objectives and establishing methods to influence the future in that country. Maybe we would have also left the Baathists de facto in charge in Iraq and and saved so many Americans from being maimed and killed.
Utah Bob
10-10-2019, 08:07
Fox doesn’t get it either.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkeys-syria-invasion-member-of-us-special-forces-says-i-am-ashamed-for-the-first-time-in-my-career/ar-AAIxyrN?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
Fox doesn’t get it either.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkeys-syria-invasion-member-of-us-special-forces-says-i-am-ashamed-for-the-first-time-in-my-career/ar-AAIxyrN?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
Something about this article... :munchin
35,000,000 Kurds in the region
2% (700,000) is a force that would outnumber all but the top 5 of the Worlds individual standing armies
Throw out the Kurd-commies, go for 1% and it would be the size of Turkey's army
link: 29 Largest Armies In The World (https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/29-largest-armies-in-the-world.html)
Am I missing something??
Too many Americans are enamored with Kurosawa's Shichinin no Samurai.
Not every village is poor, defenseless, and incapable of defending itself.
You can argue the merits of MTT teams but please refrain from imagining you're Yul Brenner.
After 18 yrs I don't think SWA fits the bill for a re-make of The Magnificent Seven.
Although, in 2001, there was a glimmer. :lifter
My $00.00002
Old Dog New Trick
10-10-2019, 09:51
Still no link in the media that Turkey is a NATO member and allied with the USA and continue to mis-state for political propaganda purposes that the Kurds (apparently they are all one for now) are allied with the US and are due the same differentiation.
Also still missing from this reporting is that Turkey is bombing and invading Syria...not Kurdistan (which BTW does not exist.)
ETA: There is this - https://apple.news/AkeHK1LkAT5-dD_6L6w9C-Q where the President of the United States of America has shown the necessary leadership to unite most countries of the world in joining together in opposition of Turkey’s actions. Good job President Trump!
Mustang Man
10-10-2019, 15:00
Funny how when Turkey previously intervened in the region there was hardly any media attention or concern for kurds. Another great example of artificially crafted media coverage, and that U.S. relations with Turkey have clearly changed from what they were 2-3 years ago.
If there was a Kurdistan I'd say stay/assist....there is no Kurdistan and altho I am sympathetic what are the options....stay there forever as a police force.
No.
If they declare a state then revisit support but as a speed bump entity...forever...no.
This is big 'news' because Dems have discovered they like unending conflicts because Trump does not....if he said....'I'd never invade Canada' ...Maxine would declare a Constitutional crisis and demand we invade Canada...…
Badger52
10-10-2019, 17:02
This is big 'news' because Dems have discovered they like unending conflicts because Trump does not....if he said....'I'd never invade Canada' ...Maxine would declare a Constitutional crisis and demand we invade Canada...…Bingo. They said & did nothing while Erdogan dumped boatloads of fighting age lslamists into Merkel's welcoming EU Nirvana. (Ask Sweden how that's working out.)
The prime mover of all this - both parties - is because Orange Man Bad.
frostfire
10-12-2019, 08:57
Fox doesn’t get it either.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/turkeys-syria-invasion-member-of-us-special-forces-says-i-am-ashamed-for-the-first-time-in-my-career/ar-AAIxyrN?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout
I share his sentiment. As someone who almost ended up up in Erbil 3 years ago, I felt a gut punch with the announcement. Logically and strategically, I concurred but it was still heart and soul crushing
Yes, I am enamoured w seven samurai, the Alamo, Benghazi etc etc. The peshmerga, YPJ, YPG fiercely fought daesh while the rest of the world sat idly by watching Yazidis butchered. It may be naive, but it was as black and white as Auswitz. That’s why volunteers flew in from all over the world, including Iraq war vets. Some died too.
Last hard class
10-12-2019, 12:15
Maybe someone should tell our allies to redirect their arty until we are finished packing our bags.
LHC
frostfire
10-12-2019, 14:57
Maybe US forces and French forces would exercise their right to self defense that would prompt Erdogan to reconsider his atrocious move
If not, i'm sure the Turks will figure out what to do with them. Either way it sounds like a win to me.
Word from the ground is the Turks recycle the jihadis ie into free Syrian army to fight the Kurds/SDF. A win for the Turks
Mustang Man
10-12-2019, 17:41
Anyone think Bashar al Assad might have an opinion about this?
I've thought about this. Publicly I'd imagine he is voicing displeasure. Privately he is probably relieved.
The Kurds at this point have two options.
1. Get decimated by Turks
2. Seek protection from the Syrian government over some kind agreement.
Thus, Assad get what he wants, a unified Syria. Both Turkey and Assad have the same goals, prevent the formation of a Kurdish state. A Kurdish state will only lead to further conflict and destabilization in the region, of course the divide for American policy makers is whether we want a stable Middle East or not.
Trapper John
10-13-2019, 06:18
“America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests”
Henry Kissinger
And that says it all! WD, Bubba,Box, PRB, and ODNT have hit this nail on the head too, IMO.:lifter
Monsoon65
10-13-2019, 18:33
Still no link in the media that Turkey is a NATO member and allied with the USA and continue to mis-state for political propaganda purposes that the Kurds (apparently they are all one for now) are allied with the US and are due the same differentiation.
I love how the left is screaming, "Trump abandoned our Kurdish allies to the Turks."
I guess that they haven't taken a quick peek at the NATO roster of members lately.
I am no Turk fan since they went Islamist with the now serving President....otoh, in their shoes, given the fluidity of Syria, I would want a buffer zone too.
If they create a 30 k buffer along their border I've no issues at all.
I’ve researched the intractable Syria situation for several years and feel I have a better than average layman’s understanding of it. I try my best to look at all sides of it from available, open source info. That being said, my opinion is heavily weighted by the viewpoints expressed, here, on PS.com. You guys have skin in the game, worked with the players on the ground, and have a global understanding of the geopolitical and strategic actions and outcomes.
I’m seeing a lot of these stories (https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2019/10/silent-warriors-speak-out-against-trumps-syria-turnaround/160613/) being posted on the web and Twitter. Based on what many of you have said in this thread (and other related threads) I find these articles hard to believe and suspect they are democrat/neo-con or, even, foreign propaganda. Am I correct in thinking this or are the SF/SEALs etc truly bothered by Trump’s decision to pullback in the region?
When I was in I felt that my job was to:
1. Shoot someone in the face.
2. Train to shoot someone in the face.
3. Train someone else to shoot someone in the face for me (US interest). Or
4. Advise someone to shoot someone in the face for me (US interest).
I was deployed to do 1-4 for an average of 270 days a year. I yearned to deploy and felt that I was doing my job while so. Most, if not all, SF guys feel the same.
However, there is a time and place that we as a country need to realize that the mission is over and our partners need to stand on their own.
Most of the Kurds are not our friends. They fall into the the enemy of my enemy category and wouldn’t stand beside us if not due to their enemies breathing down their necks.
The SecArmy has even said - troops are free to voice an opinion - however, we are NOT there for the Kurds - we went there to neutralize ISIS.
Good call or bad call by the POTUS, everyone be their own judge - one fact, however, remains incontrovertible.........
WE.ARE.NOT.IN.THE.REGION.TO.HELP.KURDS.
...for everything else there's MasterCard.
WarriorDiplomat
10-16-2019, 07:49
The entire worlds history and that region specifically is exactly why the old saying stands true "good fences make for good neighbors"
Badger52
10-16-2019, 10:03
The entire worlds history and that region specifically is exactly why the old saying stands true "good fences make for good neighbors"
I'll take the Atlantic Ocean for $1200, Alex.
Guymullins
10-17-2019, 01:45
In the course of history, The US has been a staunch ally.As an older SF, I remember Viet Nam and our montagnard partners. We, the entire 5th Group benefited from the total support from each tribe. We knew it was wrong and tried to make it right in our own way. The Kurds are no different. They are a minority who just want to be left alone. We armed them, trained them and led them then our government betrayed them. Like 45 years ago, we bailed on them. No, the SF community did not bail, but the United States did led by a corrupt leader with power to spare. How can a Secretary of State, a West Point graduate break their code - "I will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do"
We South Africans also felt the sharp serpents tooth of American betrayal when the US encouraged us to start war in Angola to curb Cuban and Russian influence there, only to be dropped shortly thereafter when the US withdrew its material and personnell support leaving us to fight the good fight against the Communists.
It didnt end terribly for us. The Berlin Wall fell, the Russians and Cubans went home and Namibia and South Africa transitioned to deeply flawed African democracies instead of disaterous African-Communist dictatorships
Airbornelawyer
10-17-2019, 12:53
We South Africans also felt the sharp serpents tooth of American betrayal when the US encouraged us to start war in Angola to curb Cuban and Russian influence there, only to be dropped shortly thereafter when the US withdrew its material and personnell support leaving us to fight the good fight against the Communists.
It didnt end terribly for us. The Berlin Wall fell, the Russians and Cubans went home and Namibia and South Africa transitioned to deeply flawed African democracies instead of disaterous African-Communist dictatorships
Ah, memories! Somewhere I have a picture of me with Jonas Savimbi in the late 1980s.
Guymullins
10-17-2019, 16:35
Ah, memories! Somewhere I have a picture of me with Jonas Savimbi in the late 1980s.
I still have an American K-Bar from one of the first shipments of US arms to UNITA.
WarriorDiplomat
10-17-2019, 19:51
We South Africans also felt the sharp serpents tooth of American betrayal when the US encouraged us to start war in Angola to curb Cuban and Russian influence there, only to be dropped shortly thereafter when the US withdrew its material and personnell support leaving us to fight the good fight against the Communists.
It didnt end terribly for us. The Berlin Wall fell, the Russians and Cubans went home and Namibia and South Africa transitioned to deeply flawed African democracies instead of disaterous African-Communist dictatorships
Have you read the books by John Stockwell? In search of enemies and the praetorian guard? He was IIRC the CIA architect of the Angola conflict.....interesting read he wrote these books before the secret agencies had legal abilities to stop former agents from talking about their careers....he was raised in the African continent and once retired is dead against the secret wars
As soldiers we are at the mercy of our politicians and with the modern open source technological era it is much easier to see the deceit and conspiracies....unfortunately it takes life experience to see the bigger picture you can't see as a young trooper.
bblhead672
10-18-2019, 08:27
Bring everyone home. I'd rather Kurds die and be maimed than Americans.
A stable middle east as a goal? Has there been a "stable" middle east in the last few thousand years?
The statists, MIC and career war mongers are unhappy for sure. The families and friends of those in harms way are surely relieved.
Just to shake the bush where the hornets nest is hanging - but Israel also needs to shut the fuck up.
So Mr Netanyahu wants to shoot off at the mouth about how Israel, "strongly condemns the Turkish invasion of the Kurdish areas in Syria and warns against the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds by Turkey and its proxies,”
Well listen up jackass - there is an entire planet full of folks that can't wait to turn that statement around on you and your defense of the West Bank and Gaza.
Before you start pleading with global leaders about siding with the "culture without a country" - you better make sure you have a huge stockpile of sandbags and small arms ammo to help defend your little empire in the desert. I am certain that the Palestinians share your concern for the current treatment of an ancient people who feel like their homeland has been stripped from them.
...something about people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and something something somenthing
Badger52
10-18-2019, 09:34
Just to shake the bush where the hornets nest is hanging - but Israel also needs to shut the fuck up.
You're such a pest... :D
Ret10Echo
10-18-2019, 11:14
A stable middle east as a goal? Has there been a "stable" middle east in the last few thousand years?
If you haven't as of yet I'd suggest this as an interesting read and insight into the long and illustrious history of the west in the region.
Trump’s Big Move On Turkey May Gain U.S. Goals
https://www.nysun.com/foreign/trump-big-move-on-turkey-may-gain-us-goals/90872/
An interesting article - worth a slow read.
"The controversy over President Trump’s pullout on the Turkish–Syrian border will settle down quickly. It is another useful debunking of ancient shibboleths and decrepit truisms, like the long-impregnable encrustation of false wisdom that moving the U.S embassy in Israel to Jerusalem would unleash hell upon the whole Middle East...."
Badger52
10-20-2019, 20:28
An interesting article - worth a slow read. That indeed is a damned good piece; thank you for sharing that. Definitely not for the 15-sec attention span of a pundit's comment. Timeline was well-woven [seen as history lesson type stuff].
Trump’s Big Move On Turkey May Gain U.S. Goals
An interesting article - worth a slow read.
Thanks, will attempt to share with the screamers. :rolleyes:
Trapper John
10-21-2019, 06:29
Thanks, will attempt to share with the screamers. :rolleyes:
Me too! :D
Golf1echo
10-21-2019, 08:18
Pete appreciate the reference as well, a comprehensive perspective. Over the years I’ve had conversations with Kurds on several occasions an always ended with me scratching my head, seemed like hearing cats... realized there are a lot of dynamics at work.
The brake-up of the ottoman empire after WW I was a disaster. Apparently, Erdogan agrees and wants to recreate the old days, with his self as the Emperor,, of a Nuclear Caliph??
This does not bode well for anyone involved.
Erdogan Wants Nuclear Weapons
October 20, 2019 at 9:59 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 125 Comments
“Turkey’s president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, wants more than control over a wide swath of Syria along his country’s border. He says he wants the Bomb,” the New York Times reports.
“In the weeks leading up to his order to launch the military across the border to clear Kurdish areas, Mr. Erdogan made no secret of his larger ambition.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/20/world/middleeast/erdogan-turkey-nuclear-weapons-trump.html?emc=rss&partner=rss&fbclid=IwAR3E3E4r3urQclf6wUhRZJoKS3PrztdRfcwGu9wW-fkP2Z3cbjd2Gsoc0Nk
:mad:
Old Dog New Trick
10-21-2019, 10:32
Pete, that Conrad Black story is the same one I must have read back in the 80’s except it’s been updated. Yep, that’s my understanding of the Kurd issue and the other regional players. Not much has changed except we keep getting in bed with them expecting a different outcome.
I don’t care for Turkey’s control of that strategic landmass and would not trust Erdogan to be a straight player, but what is to be done is beyond my pay grade.
If peace is the absence of war, that region has seen only shimmering glimpses since before the first two men settled there - one was Muslim the other Christian...
Golf1echo
10-21-2019, 11:06
Pete appreciate the reference as well, a comprehensive perspective. Over the years I’ve had conversations with Kurds on several occasions and always ended with me scratching my head, seemed like herding cats... realized there are a lot of dynamics at work.
Edit: Anecdotal of course. I have always supported liberty and the idea of a Kurdish State ... one would think they disliked Erdogan but I didn’t always get that. Now Syria seems to be looking for an alliance? Certainly it was tragic what happened to them in Iraq.
Apologize, that was no edit
bblhead672
10-21-2019, 13:03
If you haven't as of yet I'd suggest this as an interesting read and insight into the long and illustrious history of the west in the region.
Thanks. Placed order for book.
Maybe US forces and French forces would exercise their right to self defense that would prompt Erdogan to reconsider his atrocious move
Word from the ground is the Turks recycle the jihadis ie into free Syrian army to fight the Kurds/SDF. A win for the Turks
Yep. They are both sunni muslims and hate Assad. As far as the escaping jihadi "prisoners" are concerned, the Kurds, who have now allied with Assad, should just turn them over to him. He'll know what to do with them.