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RangerCharlie
02-12-2004, 08:59
Few questions: (Coming from Plaster's book)

I noticed a few of the guys were PFC's and SP4/5's. Were all members of SOG grads of the SF course? (I assume support guys were not)

Which relates to my next question of was the SF course much the same as it is now? Length and such or was during the war a shortened version added to get guys in the field?

When did 30 rnd mags come on line?

What was the length of tour?

Dick Meadows son was my PL, I see sr. was mentioned several times in the SOG book, but never any stories about him other than the Son-Tay raid. Any reason why he didn't get much written about him since he had a great rep?

I am truly amazed at some of the stuff those guys did (You included Mark), going into such zones seemed to be a death trap but you guys made it out..

Hoped some of the indigs made it out. Any more info on the overland route used by them?

Air.177
02-12-2004, 09:55
Ambush Master will be back online no later than Saturday. He'll know for sure. I wasn't there but I have grown up with him telling me all of the great old stories. The only question that I can attempt to answer is aboout the Mags. He was there in late 70-71 and he said that they did have a few thirty rounders, but that it was easier to move through the jungle with twenties. He also said that the thirties were so rare that an empty mag usually got stuffed into your webgear or shirt or somewhere rather than being dropped like the twenties. Hope that helps.

Also, If i am not mistaken, there is more about Meadows in Plaster's second SOG book.(The big one with all the pictures)

RangerCharlie
02-12-2004, 10:12
I have both books, mainly referring to the second one.

Thanks

CommoGeek
02-12-2004, 11:56
A SGM in my old unit is a SOG vet. We briefly discussed it one day and he remarked that he still didn't know what was declassed and what wasn't so he kept his mouth shut. What little he did discuss was..... beyond comprehension.

Awesome men, awesome responsibilty, awesome results.

Roguish Lawyer
02-12-2004, 12:02
I believe that Plaster's first book indicates that SOG was not an SF-only outfit, but that is only my recollection.

Air.177
02-12-2004, 12:17
RL-That's correct, SOG included SF, SEALs, Air force Helos and some Marine folks. As well as support in the form of transportation and fire support from whoever they could get it from.

All of the SOG guys that I have talked to have said that Plaster's books are spot on, so if it says so in there, then it came from a for real SOG guy or from recently declassified documents and can be trusted.

RangerCharlie
02-12-2004, 12:34
ok
Let's just focus on the RT teams and such then.

BMT (RIP)
02-12-2004, 12:49
Guys, I will only write about what happened at CCS.

1. I know of at least one of our RT 10's came in country as a leg clerk typist. Jump school in country and the SOG school at Long Thanh.He ran some damn good targets for CCS.

2.The launch site at Quan Loi was supported by the 195th AHC and O1-E's both Army and Air Force.
Army flew radio relay and AF were FAC's.

3.The North launch site was supported by the 20th SOS and 155th AHC.When we moved to the Northern limits of our AO chopper units from Pleiku provided slick support.Army O1E's flew radio relay and AF O-2's flew FAC.

When I first arrived at CCS the ROE's were no TAC Air or arty and guhships had to use light warheads. We didn't want to scar the ground!!
Then we started putting in ARC LIGHT strikes into the Base Areas.
BMT

RangerCharlie
02-12-2004, 12:56
So were the CCS teams all SOG school qual'd or SF qual'd?

BMT (RIP)
02-12-2004, 13:05
American team members were trained at LT and OJT. Very few were not SF qual'd.

BMT

CPTAUSRET
02-12-2004, 13:21
BMT:

You mentioned "light rockets", when I first arrived in country (1965) all we had were 6 pound warheads, then we were issued 10 pounders, and eventually 17 pounders (the 17 pounders were equivalent to a 105), so a Cobra with 72 rockets could ruin your day:

Were the light rockets you referred to 6, or 10 pounders?

Terry

Air.177
02-12-2004, 13:50
While we are asking questions about the "old days".
CPTAUSRET-is it really possible to fit people into the ammo magazine on a cobra? I have heard stories of this happening, but the Cobra always seemed too small for that type of thing. Many Thanks

CPTAUSRET
02-12-2004, 14:05
I presume you mean extracting someone in an emergency situation; in that case no, the ammo trays would have to be removed in a hurry, and I idoubt that there would be ample time to accomplish the removal:

The ammo bay doors, which are closed with dzus fasteners, can be popped open in a hurry, and someone could be extracted on the door:

Terry

CommoGeek
02-12-2004, 14:10
I once heard a rumor of some guys riding in the ammo bays on a Cobra at Bragg and doing an MFF jump into St. Mere Eglise DZ in the early to mid-80's. Don't know how much of an urban legend that is, but if two Spec 4's can take a tank and have inert LAWS shot at it, I guess anything is possible.

NousDefionsDoc
02-12-2004, 14:18
Originally posted by CommoGeek
I once heard a rumor of some guys riding in the ammo bays on a Cobra at Bragg and doing an MFF jump into St. Mere Eglise DZ in the early to mid-80's. Don't know how much of an urban legend that is, but if two Spec 4's can take a tank and have inert LAWS shot at it, I guess anything is possible.

That didn't happen and I don't know anything about it or the people that did it.

CPTAUSRET
02-12-2004, 14:29
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
That didn't happen and I don't know anything about it or the people that did it.

CUTE!

Terry

CommoGeek
02-12-2004, 14:39
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
That didn't happen and I don't know anything about it or the people that did it.

LMAO!

I've heard two versions of the rumor, the participants, and the aftermath.

LOL....

BMT (RIP)
02-12-2004, 14:39
Terry and Guys, I am going to say 10lb warheads.

I went to the first COVEY school at LT and it turned into conference more than a school. Our instructors started the first class and things went to Hell in a handbasket. Each Launch Team had diffirent things to consider to insert an RT.

North and South Launch Team at CCS used totally diffirent ways to insert an RT.

BMT

NousDefionsDoc
02-12-2004, 14:41
BMT, you were in the first class of Coveys?

BMT (RIP)
02-12-2004, 17:23
Yes. The end of '69. Can not remember a time. Damn it has only been 34+ years.

BMT

NousDefionsDoc
02-12-2004, 17:26
I didn't know. Its an honor, even if it is just on the internet so far. First case is on me when we finally link up.

Roguish Lawyer
02-13-2004, 10:44
Originally posted by NousDefionsDoc
First case is on me when we finally link up.

I like your attitude. :D

CPTAUSRET
02-13-2004, 10:57
Originally posted by Roguish Lawyer
I like your attitude. :D

Counselor, you've got the attitude part right, I can attest to that!

Terry

Roguish Lawyer
02-13-2004, 11:17
Originally posted by CPTAUSRET
Counselor, you've got the attitude part right, I can attest to that!

Terry

Thanks. I was focused more on the volume than who pays for it, though! :D

Ambush Master
02-13-2004, 23:50
OK, I'm back on station and will reply over the next few days. As to the rank question, can you say BUSTED !!! This organization was made up of THE most (current term) Think Outside of The BOX bunch of people that you could imagine. We had fun, sometimes it was at the expense of others and some were not crafty enough to not get CAUGHT !!! This sounds weird, but when we were in the "Rear" and were in a subdued sensual condition, the best of the Jungle Runners could Fuck Up !!! Be in the wrong place..........

I escaped a few of these near catastrophies and will follow with said tales at a later date.

As for the SF Course, read Tom Clancy's book on Special Forces. Not Fiction. What he describes today is exactly what I went through. As I understand it today, Weapons guys specialize in Light or Heavy. We had to Qual on both to include working the Air Side !!

30 rd mags, they were there when I got there in 1970. I do not know when they first arrived. I personally did not like them because we did not have the gear to carry them correctly and they were a hassle in deep jungle opns. They did snag and made it difficult to present the weapon quick enough to be able to be here today to talk about it !!!:D

Length of tour was an open ended thing. First you had to volunteer to do it, then be accepted, then pass the 1-0 School that would clear you for X-Border Opns. Many of us received "extentions" to stay and do our thing. Several ran for numerous tours (12 month).

That's it for now, will attempt to respond to the rest in this thread.

As a somewhat small note to the true nature of this site, MACVSOG received The Presidential Unit Citation for Valor on April 4, 2001 some 30+ years after the fact!

Quiet Professionals !!!

Later.

Martin

Roguish Lawyer
02-14-2004, 18:09
So 1-0 school wasn't just for 1-0s? Everyone in SOG had to go through it to go cross-border?

Ambush Master
02-14-2004, 18:16
You got it !! After all, with the AO and Intensity of what we were running, you could go out as a 1-2 or even a strap-hanger and find yourself in the position of having to take charge of whatever was left !!! Everyone had to know how to run the team.

Later
Martin

longrange1947
02-14-2004, 20:36
As another note on rank. In the late 60s, before shake and bake, Tng Group graduated, PFCs and Sp4s. I entered Tng Group as a Pvt 2 adn was supposed to stay that rank until graduation. During my stay Tng Group became a Shake and Bake. This made guys with less time in the army then my class SGts while we were still Pv2s and PFCs. They finally relented and made us Sp4s but we would have graduated as PFCs had we not all raised hell over the rank.

I came into the army on Oki and went through the replacement Company there. During my one month stay there, I met several guys on the way to 5th that were only PFCs and Sp4s with full flashes.

Just a quick background ont he rank thing.