View Full Version : Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) ??
Is it real??
Watched John Wick, I & II a couple times. Good action flick. Keanu Reeves is perfect for the part. Very similar to Léon (Jean Reno) in The Professional (1994)
Both use the keep your mouth shut and shoot until they are all dead philosophy..
Reeves is very fit, practices frequently and doesn't need stunt doubles, BUTT
Is the CAR method use in the real world, by LEO's or the military,,
Or was it developed as a whizz-bang super-cool gimmick for the movies?
I ask because every time I see someone shot from the LOW position, I'm thinking the shooter is getting a face full of blow-back gas & unburnt powder? PLUS a real good ear pop..
I also question the HIGH position canted hold??
Mandatory gratuitous and violent shooter training film from UT (find it yourself)
https://www.*******.com/watch?v=3Q5zl-3BbkY
Team Sergeant
04-06-2018, 14:28
Center Axis Relock lolol, sure, it's used by hollywood and actors that have no clue what real shooting is........ bet he paid out the ass to learn to shoot by a fake "shooting" instructor..........
Next they will be using the "gangster" method. Personally I'd like to see them using the "over the head" method.
Center Axis Relock, lol, can't even type it without laughing, is right up there with "point shooting".:rolleyes:
The C.A.R. method and its inventor, Paul Castle, both come with a bit of controversy. It may have limited applications, think shooting to the side out of vehicle, but personally, I steer clear of niche systems. If it was that great, the SMUs would all be using it. To the best of my knowledge, they don't.
x/S
Team Sergeant
04-08-2018, 10:26
Surgical “handgun” shooting is no different than a golf swing. If you want to be good you practice the basics and work to the advanced levels. The approved/mastered style is out there and being taught by the best of the best.
But, just like golf, there are those with every gimmick known to man trying to make their name in some crazy way.
My favorite is still point shooting, method used, pointing a gun in a general direction and hoping you connect.
“Center Axis Relock” is right up there with point shooting, point the handgun in the general direction and hope you make contact. Even more amusing it’s being made “famous” by someone that pretends to be a warrior in a hollywood movie.
That said, if you enjoy snake oil salesmen you might like this method of shooting. I’ve been practicing the “over the head” method myself. Haven’t hit a damn thing yet but it’s lots of fun.;)
miclo18d
04-08-2018, 12:40
Crap, it’s like those “10 ways to make your D bigger” clickbait adds.
I was like, “I’ve never heard of CAR”
I’ll never get back those 30 seconds of my life!!! :(
I honestly thought this was a delayed April Fools joke.
tom kelly
04-08-2018, 15:40
Almost everything portrayed in a "movie" involving a gunfight is the fantasy of the movie's director. His main objective is to provide entertainment not objective,proven methods of instruction on how to shoot a firearm and survive an actual life threatening gunfight. A similar fantasy of Hollywood is having an inexperienced passenger safely landing a 747 jetliner on an unfamiliar runway at night....both feats require a-lot of instruction, practice and experience to successfully survive the outcome...IMHO....tom kelly
C.A.R. and Castle made the LE rounds about 18 years ago. We sent a couple instructors at the time. Like exsquid stated, they found limited real world application. Mostly limited to drawing from a seated position to a direct lateral threat.
Team Sergeant
04-08-2018, 22:08
C.A.R. and Castle made the LE rounds about 18 years ago. We sent a couple instructors at the time. Like exsquid stated, they found limited real world application. Mostly limited to drawing from a seated position to a direct lateral threat.
Yeah, and the Phoenix PD sent officers to a explosive breaching school that specialized in breaching using "black powder"........ that ended quickly. I think the breaching instructor is now flipping burgers.........
As I said C.A.R is one of the most stupid shooting methods I've ever seen and never heard of until now........... and if you google it you'll find its on "point shooting" websites........
Now I realize how the flat earth society took off.............:rolleyes:
miclo18d
04-09-2018, 03:48
.... Now I realize how the flat earth society took off.............:rolleyes:
LMFAO
....and when did this become a thing?
G2squared
04-11-2018, 21:41
LMFAO
....and when did this become a thing?
Flat Earth Society? It's been around a while. I'm a pilot, small planes, not the 727 mentioned earlier, but multi engine and instrument rated, I'm pretty sure I've seen the edge of the earth and that's why I stay pretty close and cautious when flying in the clouds. Don't want to fly off the edge!
As for this CAR shooting, a guy who was pretty good at gaming shooting competitions came up with a name that he thought was snappy and sold it. Congrats to him for making a buck. But buyer beware...
G2
miclo18d
04-12-2018, 05:02
Flat Earth Society? It's been around a while. I'm a pilot, small planes, not the 727 mentioned earlier, but multi engine and instrument rated, I'm pretty sure I've seen the edge of the earth and that's why I stay pretty close and cautious when flying in the clouds. Don't want to fly off the edge!
As for this CAR shooting, a guy who was pretty good at gaming shooting competitions came up with a name that he thought was snappy and sold it. Congrats to him for making a buck. But buyer beware...
G2
I always wondered when I was doing a HALO train up, why I could only see so far. That was the edge, eh?
Good thing the glide ratio on an MC4 sucked or I could have fallen off the side too!
The more TV I watch, the more I’m seeing this CAR thing. I guess he’s well known in the Hollywood circles, not so much in the shooting circles. I’ve never seen anyone win a shooting comp using CAR. I guess it’s so good that guys like Rob Letham are using that method.... no, wait, what?
Team Sergeant
04-12-2018, 10:41
Watched “John Wick II” again last night just to view the “Center Axis Relock” method…….. lol. Was nothing but “point shooting”. And the “grip” Keanu Reeves was employing was not a grip at all. The only thing different in the “new” hollywood movies is that it shows the actor reloading. He/she still hits everything he points the gun at…….
The absolute worst weapons instructors out there make this kind of crap up just to sell to unwitting sheep. Nothing different than selling a piece of shit used car to a first-time car buyer. Except this sort of bullshit will get real people killed.
Where’s Bill Hillar and Wolfgang Hammershit? Bet both of them could sell this shooting style!
You’ve been warned.
You'd be better off going here to up your golf game.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1325308-top-10-worst-golf-infomercial-products-of-all-time
Papa Zero Three
04-12-2018, 15:22
While I have absolutely no love for CAR, there is one thing I am certain of, and that is that Reeves can shoot for real. An Israeli guy (supposedly Mossad) that is in the Hollywood circle taught Reeves all the funky CAR shit, among other fucked up things that show up in movies.
The person who taught Reeves how to shoot for real is Taran Butler ( 3 gun champion). What you see Reeves doing in the movies as far as shooting/weapon manipulation goes is legit, meaning he can do it with real rounds and hit a target. I'm sure many have seen the You tube videos of Reeves shooting and running drills at Tarans range. If you haven't, go check them out. And surprisingly enough, you won't see Reeves using CAR while he is shooting real rounds.
I learned everything I know from Ermy movies.
SF - Rambo (the movie not the piece of "work")
Patrolling - Predator
Pistol MMS - John Wick
Long Gun - Jack Reacher
Jumping - Jumping Jacks
Anybody that takes anything from Hollyweird seriously deserves what they get. Usually fleeced.
While I have absolutely no love for CAR, there is one thing I am certain of, and that is that Reeves can shoot for real. An Israeli guy (supposedly Mossad) that is in the Hollywood circle taught Reeves all the funky CAR shit, among other fucked up things that show up in movies.
The person who taught Reeves how to shoot for real is Taran Butler ( 3 gun champion). What you see Reeves doing in the movies as far as shooting/weapon manipulation goes is legit, meaning he can do it with real rounds and hit a target. I'm sure many have seen the You tube videos of Reeves shooting and running drills at Tarans range. If you haven't, go check them out. And surprisingly enough, you won't see Reeves using CAR while he is shooting real rounds.
Easy to get hits when you’re shooting full size IPSC targets at 3 feet. His hits at longer targets suck. Run a stage enough times and eventually you’ll get better at it. He’s an actor, that’s his job is to play circus monkey over and over again until the camera gets the right footage.
While Taran is a great shooter, don’t forget how many idiots he chooses to represent him (Amy Jane - busted for stolen valor; Rochelle Hathaway - anti 2A).
Papa Zero Three
04-13-2018, 12:44
Easy to get hits when you’re shooting full size IPSC targets at 3 feet. His hits at longer targets suck. Run a stage enough times and eventually you’ll get better at it. He’s an actor, that’s his job is to play circus monkey over and over again until the camera gets the right footage.
While Taran is a great shooter, don’t forget how many idiots he chooses to represent him (Amy Jane - busted for stolen valor; Rochelle Hathaway - anti 2A).
Say and believe what you want. However I have been on Taran's range and seen Reeves shoot not only the close targets, but the far ones.....the ones 300+ meters out, up on the hill behind the flat range.
Regardless of the target(s) distance, he can hit the targets with all 3 guns better than most average gun owners out there. Make no mistake, he has put in the work and can run a gun cold.
As far as Taran goes, I know the man personally and he is a genuine nice guy. Those people you mentioned made their own choices and aren't representative of him any more than you are representative of anyone you've known in your life thats done something questionable/objectionable.
Say and believe what you want. However I have been on Taran's range and seen Reeves shoot not only the close targets, but the far ones.....the ones 300+ meters out, up on the hill behind the flat range.
Regardless of the target(s) distance, he can hit the targets with all 3 guns better than most average gun owners out there. Make no mistake, he has put in the work and can run a gun cold.
As far as Taran goes, I know the man personally and he is a genuine nice guy. Those people you mentioned made their own choices and aren't representative of him any more than you are representative of anyone you've known in your life thats done something questionable/objectionable.
Based off the videos my opinion still stands. Hitting a large target vs getting consistent A hits are much different things. When Reeves throws on kit and tries it for real then I’ll give him credit. Until then, it’s just a rehearsed show.
I know a Taran as well. Yes, nice guy but chooses money over values.
Team Sergeant
04-13-2018, 19:24
Taran Tactical Innovations
Now you’re making me laugh, again. What part of “tactical” does a game shooter teach? He's never faced a armed enemy/criminal? And as was said, he sells his skilz to the millionaires.
Learning from him would be like the fed’s learning from an “Olympic” pistol shooter with zero “tactical” skilz. Oh , wait……………..
As 275RLTW stated, Reeves is just an actor/multimillionaire pretending to be something else.
(He was great in the Matrix series!)
Papa Zero Three
04-13-2018, 22:40
Taran Tactical Innovations
Now you’re making me laugh, again. What part of “tactical” does a game shooter teach? He's never faced a armed enemy/criminal? And as was said, he sells his skilz to the millionaires.
Learning from him would be like the fed’s learning from an “Olympic” pistol shooter with zero “tactical” skilz. Oh , wait……………..
As 275RLTW stated, Reeves is just an actor/multimillionaire pretending to be something else.
(He was great in the Matrix series!)
Taran doesn't teach ANY tactics, I don't know why he used that in his business name. I'd assume for business purposes, which kinds of makes sense seeing how a lot of SF guys are running his magazine extenders in Group these days. I mean imagine, what if someone like Rob Latham were to teach Unit/SF guys how to shoot....oh, wait, he did/does.
Reeves may be an actor, but he isn't pretending when it comes to shooting. He runs a gun better than most of the people who consider themselves gun guys.
Neither Reeves or Taran ever claimed to be tactical experts, but each is more than capable of shooting better than the average gun owner.
In the videos I watched, Taran did teach tactics. He taught the TTPs of competitive shooting. A competition gun is not a war gun or war system. Would I use my comp pin gun for home defense? If it is the first thing handy, yes, as that environment is nice and clean. Would I use that same pin gun and my old Safariland belt, holster, and mag carrier in a combat environment? Not on your life. I would have lost the pistol and mags upon landing during (pick your infill method, besides walking or an IPSC range "running") and could have taken the belt off and spanked the enemy.
Have someone grab those comp guns and deploy to pick a two-way-shooting range and get out of the FOB and come back and tell us how long he kept them without swapping them out or modifying them.
I had the benefit of receiving competitive shooting instruction and yes you can use some of the TTPs in the work environment -- upper body stance and grip and reloading, but other than that not too much. And it is great to be able to walk the terrain and see where each target is and dry fire on them (for a day in the vid) before you go hot. On one of my shoots I had to engage 20 plates and a Bowling pin (the finisher) and was consistent with 16 sec. runs (2 mag changes). They took me to a different range with same number of plates and pin with no "rehearsal" and I did not do so well. close to double the time. The big difference was on range A I new where the targets were and just concentrated on the front sight on range B I had to look for the target then transition to the front sights.
CAR and other competitive shooting TTPs does provide good entertainment at the movies. Maybe tha Gangtas can use them too.
turboprop
04-14-2018, 11:37
The top-level civilian shooting instructors don't try to mix tactics with their instruction because they know their audience. They understand the huge value they provide in teaching guys to shoot more accurately, faster. It sells itself and there is no reason to try to teach "tactics" to the guys that invented and continue to innovate them. It would be awkward to say the least.
I think it's short-sighted to judge guys from outside the military based on how much combat they've been in-or shut them down if they haven't "gone to war." Do you apply the same logic to your sports and conditioning coaches? Climbing guides? Driving instructors, combatives, et al?
I would be very surprised to surprised to hear anyone that's actually spent a day on the range being taught by Leatham, Miculek, Sevigny, Voigt (RIP) etc say that they had nothing to offer them because they weren't tactical. If you're willing to open up to people that aren't in your peer group you'll be amazed at what you might learn.
I learned a lot from John Shaw. Competitive shooting does hone the edge. But many of the competition senarios were bogus, unrealistic, and complete fantasy.
Latham (and the rest mentioned) was good but came after I stopped shooting and I did not follow shooting after that.
They now spend thousands on a comp gun and hundreds to thousands on the optics.
The main thing I learned in competition is, a fast C is better than a slow A.
Papa Zero Three
04-14-2018, 15:00
The top-level civilian shooting instructors don't try to mix tactics with their instruction because they know their audience. They understand the huge value they provide in teaching guys to shoot more accurately, faster. It sells itself and there is no reason to try to teach "tactics" to the guys that invented and continue to innovate them. It would be awkward to say the least.
I think it's short-sighted to judge guys from outside the military based on how much combat they've been in-or shut them down if they haven't "gone to war." Do you apply the same logic to your sports and conditioning coaches? Climbing guides? Driving instructors, combatives, et al?
I would be very surprised to surprised to hear anyone that's actually spent a day on the range being taught by Leatham, Miculek, Sevigny, Voigt (RIP) etc say that they had nothing to offer them because they weren't tactical. If you're willing to open up to people that aren't in your peer group you'll be amazed at what you might learn.
^^^^THIS^^^
I never heard Latham, Barnhart , Garcia, or any of the other top shooters that were brought out to teach members of my unit ever try to teach tactics,and to be clear, I mean tactics as in military tactics, not competitive shooting tactics. In fact, most of them will tell you up front, at the beginning of the class "I don't teach tactics, that's for you guys to figure out. I'm here to teach you how to improve your shooting"
If you are one of the guys who still buys into the old dogma of "avoid comp shooting, it'll get you killed in the streets", you need to get with the times and recognize that comp shooting is a force multiplier in improving your shooting.
It's not a replacement for sound tactics or combat shooting, they are mutually exclusive. Think of it as weight lifting and cardio, doing both will increase your overall performance, but neither is a replacement for the other.
In fact, you would be hard pressed to find ANY current tactical trainer today( Lamb, Proctor, Pannone, Pat Mac, etc) that will tell you that comp shooting is detrimental to improving ones skills. To quote Pannone,"if you cannot differentiate when you are shooting a competition and when you are in a gun fight and which skills to apply, you shouldn't be carrying a gun". ( video source: https://www.facebook.com/CTTSolutions/videos/1817058838305688/)
***We have drifted off of the original topic of this thread completely with this line of discussion, which was the question of CAR, not Taran, Reeves, who they're friends with, what the name of their company is, or if they can shoot targets at distance, etc.***
If you wish to pick something apart, it should be CAR, Paul Castle and Aaron Cohen ( Israeli guy who teaches Hollywood this shit) (source: https://www.cherriescounterterror.com/pages/about-us)
Team Sergeant
04-16-2018, 15:40
I learned a lot from John Shaw. Competitive shooting does hone the edge. But many of the competition senarios were bogus, unrealistic, and complete fantasy.
Latham (and the rest mentioned) was good but came after I stopped shooting and I did not follow shooting after that.
They now spend thousands on a comp gun and hundreds to thousands on the optics.
The main thing I learned in competition is, a fast C is better than a slow A.
Almost went into the three gun shooing....... then realized just how much of a game it really was......... decided against it when I found out they shoot rounds with just enough powder to cycle the guns. Did watch one or two, was just as amusing as the turkey shoots in NC! (Never won a damn turkey either. ;))
Almost went into the three gun shooing....... then realized just how much of a game it really was......... decided against it when I found out they shoot rounds with just enough powder to cycle the guns. Did watch one or two, was just as amusing as the turkey shoots in NC! (Never won a damn turkey either. ;))
Yep. The guns a tuned to a lite round and well lubed. I was shooting 180 gn semi-wadcutters in the 45. Tested aluminum rounds for the CAR-15 (before the M4).
Yes, competition was a game and should be observed as entertainment.
CAR was invented by a guy named Paul Castle. He was a cop in England and invented Central Axis Relock and created a company called Sabretactical to teach instructors.
I knew a guy who went though the instructor training in 2002. He was the kind of guy that liked to figure out the next fad in training and jump on the bandwagon quick. I don't know that he ever actually trained anybody after going to the instructor class.
Paul Castle died in 2011. There are a few people teaching his method still. Apparently some of them serve as advisers to the film industry.
Lots of debates on his system on various forums a dozen years ago or so.
I used to think the competition shooting stuff was all BS until I entered a 3 Gun match. I had my lunch handed to me by a bunch of people who could shoot very fast and very accurately. Did they game stuff? Yes. Was it tactical? No.
Here are my observations.
Most tactical guys egos get in the way of competition because they have a hard time with a 13 year old girl outshooting them. Get over it as you might learn to shoot fast and accurately in a semi dynamic environment.
Will this replace tactical training or combat? No but where else can civilians or retired personnel get to put some stress on themselves and have to shoot fast and accurately?
If the SHTF I would now want people to show up that had a competition background who can shoot fast and accurately and I will have an easier time teaching them tactics.
A Gaming Attitude. Is this a bad thing to develop as a whole? What do we do after our COA development? Wargame them if I remember correctly. How about an ambush, if we do it correctly we have Gamed it correctly where the enemy never gets a say. I think developing a Gaming Mindset is not the bad.