Army Basic Training to Drop Hand Grenade Competency

[Pete]

Army Basic Training to Drop Hand Grenade Competency as Graduation Requirement

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/army-basic-training-drop-hand-grenade-competency-graduation-requirement

At first I thought this was the duffleblog.

"The U.S. Army will drop its hand grenade competency requirement for graduation from basic training because getting recruits to pass it is taking “too much time” and they’re just not strong enough, Major General Malcolm Frost told reporters on Friday.

Changes to the Army’s Basic Combat Training (BTC) will eliminate the current hand grenade proficiency standards as a requirement for graduation...."

[JJ_BPK]

"The U.S. Army will drop its hand grenade competency requirement for graduation from basic training because getting recruits to pass it is taking “too much time” and they’re just not strong enough, Major General Malcolm Frost told reporters on Friday.



I guess the next change is a new 22LR rifle,, so they don't get bruised from recoil??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3IORZ79ISg
:mad::mad::mad:

[Basenshukai]

Army Basic Training to Drop Hand Grenade Competency as Graduation Requirement

https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/craig-bannister/army-basic-training-drop-hand-grenade-competency-graduation-requirement

At first I thought this was the duffleblog.

"The U.S. Army will drop its hand grenade competency requirement for graduation from basic training because getting recruits to pass it is taking “too much time” and they’re just not strong enough, Major General Malcolm Frost told reporters on Friday.

Changes to the Army’s Basic Combat Training (BTC) will eliminate the current hand grenade proficiency standards as a requirement for graduation...."

I imagine that the particular skill set will be preserved as a requirement in the infantry MOS training.

[Badger52]

"not strong enough" - ok, that's in the YGBSM realm. Drop all pretense, address it in 11B AIT, and stop calling it Basic Combat Training.

[miclo18d]

I think grenade training should INCREASE!!!!!

In my experience, most of the time when grenades are used they end up injuring friendly forces. We are too scared of grenades, like they are some kind of wizardry or sorcery like in the movie 300.

I carried 2 with me in combat and vowed I would only use them over an Afghan style wall or as a last ditch effort when being overrun. Thank God neither happened.

But increased usage and training prevents accidents and fratricide. Knowledge of what they do and don’t do makes employing them in the right manner easier!

But then, we’ll just not train with them because women can’t throw them...that’s a good plan!

[Box]

If the army has decided that we need to stop doing hand grenade training in boot camp because soldiers aren't strong enough to throw hand grenades and that training troops how to throw something the size of a baseball os taking up too much training time......
.....well, I no longer want to hear the word warrior used to describe Soldiers coming into the US army


I refuse to accept that this is anything but a hoax so I am just going to return to the comfort of my easy chair.
Someplace peaceful...
"Someplace warm, a place where the beer flows like wine, where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano."

[sfshooter]

Guess they're going to have to change the EIB test as I remember 2 of the stations dealing with grenades. Had to throw one within the 5 meter kill zone of a target and the other you had to get into a bunker from a prescribed distance away.
With all this comingling of sexes in the combat arms I guess they can play grab ass instead of worrying about destroying the enemy any way necessary.

[PSM]

It may be the trainers' technique. I had a problem throwing them accurately in basic, too, because they told us to throw them like a baseball. Problem was, I threw sidearm. Our CO told me to throw it like a football. Solved the problem; the spoon was the laces.

The article also says that they are dropping land nav. There was no land nav in Basic in my day. :confused: If a REMF found themselves in combat they were to follow the Infantry guy in front of them...then shoot and throw grenades where they were told. :D

[Badger52]

There was no land nav in Basic in my day. :confused:Really? Man, you missed the fun stuff, how could they do that to you?
:p

[PSM]

Really? Man, you missed the fun stuff, how could they do that to you?
:p

I got plenty of it in AIT. And loved every minute of it! I was at Ft. Ord.

I was just on Skype with my son and he confirmed that he had it in basic and it was the hardest skill to learn. Yeah, so why waste time training a bunch of troops that will never need it? They may well need to defend a premier and stand guard duty, but they aren't going to lead a patrol. Leave that to combat arms AIT.

[Golf1echo]

Between Reception and Basic/AIT Combat Engineers Ft. Leonard Wood a trainee was killed and the drill Sargent was seriously wounded by a grenade, needless to say when we got to the grenade range there was no messing around. The second you threw you were pancaked to the ground behind the wall. One small soldier was marked pass but not allowed to throw because of his performance with the dummies.

They had also just brought back bayonet training, I have seen a lot of criticism over that but I think many of us enjoyed the pugil sticks and bayonet training.

Basic hand to hand, Land Nav. And some nice lanes built up to some nice nocturnal lanes with cracking pyrotechnics... Airborne School...Never did see an actual PDM like in the books at the Gruber Rd barracks. The 122 daisy chained claymores ... Pure awesome ! :lifter

Very glad to have gotten that kind of initial training!

[BryanK]

So they no longer have bayonet training, and now they're dropping grenades too? Those were the reasons I wanted to go to basic to begin with(in addition to crew-served training). All this at the same time the Army is re-designing basic training to address low-discipline and lack of strength issues?

What's the point in basic then? BRM and D&C?

[rsdengler]

" and they’re just not strong enough"

...."

LOL....So, are they saying that the meaning "You Throw Like a Girl" is accurate? :p

[SouthernDZ]

FNC announced this morning that BCT was undergoing significant changes because the recruits act "entitled" - they did not elaborate on what those changes were going to be though.

[Badger52]

LOL....So, are they saying that the meaning "You Throw Like a Girl" is accurate? :pHeh, and sadly they're probably not talking about just girls. Alright you FOGs out there... if you have little grand-kids, pink or blue, and are not out playing catch & teaching them how to bean someone with a fallen crabapple you are failing in one of your core missions.

[Badger52]

FNC announced this morning that BCT was undergoing significant changes because the recruits act "entitled" - they did not elaborate on what those changes were going to be though.Army Times article (https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/02/09/land-nav-iron-sights-and-more-discipline-big-changes-are-coming-to-army-basic-training/) (from 4 days ago) elaborated.

[Mustang Man]

If you entered basic training as sh*t bag with no discipline, you'll still graduate as one. 12 weeks does not give someone a magical epiphany of being a better person/more efficient asset. IMO from what I observed those that started strong finished strong, those that satrted weak finished weak. Yes, I understand BCT is just the basics, but this shouldnt be about making minuscule adjustments in BCT. Rather recrtuitng QUALITY people to start BCT in the first place. I understand it's a numbers game, which is why I've always been in favor of a draft. Maybe if our political leaders were drafted they'd understand we hate parades and are a waste of time...

[Box]

Don't be fooled by that article trying to brag about the new sheriff in town that's going to fix boot camp...
...the new sheriff is the one that is downplaying the importance of formal training on throwing a hand grenade.
...the new sheriff is chattering about the changes as though "iron sights" is somehow a broad and sweeping new thing


The social justice approach to national defense has put us in a place where we now think progress is being made because "changes are coming - "soon"
...we (those of us that read this BB) are ecstatic because there is "a long list of changes and tweaks, with an eye toward a full roll-out in late spring" and that list might include teaching soldiers how to shoot a battle rifle with iron sights.

Read that again...
a long list of changes and tweaks, with an eye toward a full roll-out in late spring
One more time...
with an eye toward a full roll-out in late spring

Sometime soon, (not today -not this week or next week - not even next month), our soldiers will start learning how to shoot their primary weapon using the sights !!!

Let that sink in for a second...






Let it sink in just a little deeper........









we are happy about that.
We are happy that iron sights and discipline might find their way into boot camp.

Yet, none of those responsible for such a giant leap backwards have been stuffed inside of a Brazen Bull as penance for allowing our troops to literally FAIL at shooting a gun using the sights or throwing a hand grenade. Someone has failed us in a manner that nears the definition of betrayal.
...and now we are happy


Here is a thought - lets put Hillary Clinton in the White House with supermajorities in the House and Senate.
Lets stop fucking around and let the left have control of our lives instead of this long and drawn out torture we are forced to endure.


Happy-Happy-Happy
...because we have an eye towards iron sights and discipline - but at least "Hammer, Anvil, and Forge" has a nice ring to it




Meanwhile, or a more important note, did you guys hear about the white house aide that was outed as a wife beater?

[Old Dog New Trick]

Meh-

“It depends on which side of the fence you sit,” Frost said. “There are a lot of folks who say we need to go back to drill and ceremony, because we’ve lost a lot of the discipline of what it means to be a United States Army soldier.”

This won’t mean hours set aside for marching around outside their barracks, however, Frost said.

“The drill and ceremony is going to be interwoven — when they move to and from places, drill and ceremony will be dispersed inside of that,” he said. “So the movements won’t just be lollygagging, untactical movements. They’ll actually be executing some drill and ceremony when they move to and from the chow hall, when they move to and from the barracks.”

D&C will be used to reduce lollygagging between the barracks and DFAC because you know D&C is the new tactical movement plan for disciplined warriors. Next thing you know they will be doing bounding and bounding-overwatch from table to table.

The Army stopped producing warriors in BCT/AIT/OSUT when Jody’s infatuation with Irean’s vagina (aka pussy) stopped keeping soldiers in step. (Oh some of the cadence songs I’ve heard that will make a grown man blush :o )

[Joker]

Meh-



D&C will be used to reduce lollygagging between the barracks and DFAC because you know D&C is the new tactical movement plan for disciplined warriors. Next thing you know they will be doing bounding and bounding-overwatch from table to table.

The Army stopped producing warriors in BCT/AIT/OSUT when Jody’s infatuation with Irean’s vagina (aka pussy) stopped keeping soldiers in step. (Oh some of the cadence songs I’ve heard that will make a grown man blush :o )

Let these "good" troops be in the POTUS' Parade Corps.

[Trapper John]

Let these "good" troops be in the POTUS' Parade Corps.

Beat me to it! And 100 cross-thread points to ya too!:D

[Trapper John]

Don't be fooled by that article trying to brag about the new sheriff in town that's going to fix boot camp...
...the new sheriff is the one that is downplaying the importance of formal training on throwing a hand grenade.
...the new sheriff is chattering about the changes as though "iron sights" is somehow a broad and sweeping new thing


The social justice approach to national defense has put us in a place where we now think progress is being made because "changes are coming - "soon"
...we (those of us that read this BB) are ecstatic because there is "a long list of changes and tweaks, with an eye toward a full roll-out in late spring" and that list might include teaching soldiers how to shoot a battle rifle with iron sights.

Read that again...
a long list of changes and tweaks, with an eye toward a full roll-out in late spring
One more time...
with an eye toward a full roll-out in late spring

Sometime soon, (not today -not this week or next week - not even next month), our soldiers will start learning how to shoot their primary weapon using the sights !!!

Let that sink in for a second...






Let it sink in just a little deeper........









we are happy about that.
We are happy that iron sights and discipline might find their way into boot camp.

Yet, none of those responsible for such a giant leap backwards have been stuffed inside of a Brazen Bull as penance for allowing our troops to literally FAIL at shooting a gun using the sights or throwing a hand grenade. Someone has failed us in a manner that nears the definition of betrayal.
...and now we are happy


Here is a thought - lets put Hillary Clinton in the White House with supermajorities in the House and Senate.
Lets stop fucking around and let the left have control of our lives instead of this long and drawn out torture we are forced to endure.


Happy-Happy-Happy
...because we have an eye towards iron sights and discipline - but at least "Hammer, Anvil, and Forge" has a nice ring to it




Meanwhile, or a more important note, did you guys hear about the white house aide that was outed as a wife beater?

And I was wondering what you meant by your comment elsewhere that Leadership was laser focused and knew exactly what they are doing. Now I get it! :eek:

[sfshooter]

Well, I know I'm getting kind of old hand have been out for awhile but there are some things I didn't know about our Army:

There will also be changes in marksmanship training, with recruits required to qualify with iron sight. How long have our basic recruits not been qualifying with iron sights? What happened to the "basics"

starting with codified training for recruits on what it means to be a soldier We quit teaching them about being soldier and what it means??

drill sergeants will evaluate recruits on their discipline, inspect their bunks and bays, and hold drill and ceremony competitions to make sure soldiers are learning how to march, move in a tight formation and handle their weapons in a most basic way This is not already being done? If not why was it stopped? That was basic combat training!

They'll actually be executing some drill and ceremony when they move to and from the chow hall, when they move to and from the barracks So let me understand this; the Drill sgt says to the large gaggle of soldiers "head to the chow hall" and they all just mosey over on their own in whatever gaggle pleases them?

"We also think that if we put the bar where the bar (PT) should be, that bothh the trainees and the drill sergeants will get themselves to that level"
I found the problem. Even the damn drill sergeants can't do any of this stuff! No wonder the need for "drastic" changes.

If a soldier is very close to the 60-60-60 mark, a lieutenant colonel can use discretion to sign off on their PT scores.
Hell, just have the LTC sign of on everyone so everyone gets a participation ribbon and we don't have any losers.

drill sergeants were spending hours at night......teaching trainees how to throw Have been a Drill Sergeant and taken trainees to the grenade range I never spent any hours or minutes at night teaching them how to throw. I never seen a trainee not throw the grenade!

basic training will now add movement to the standard buddy team fire course When was movement taken out of buddy teams? How do you do a "fire course" with a buddy and not move?

the Army is sticking with the 10 week model When did 8 week basic training become 10 weeks (of no basics of marching and non iron sight shooting, no discipline, no buddy movement techniques, no being able to do PT)?


I knew the Army was going down hill but I had no idea it had progressed this far.:(

[Box]

Well, I know I'm getting kind of old hand have been out for awhile but there are some things I didn't know about our Army:

Troops have been able to qualify with the M-68, which is a militarized version of the Aimpoint CompM2, for quite some time now.


A good way to get a feel for whats going on is to peruse the June 2017 edition of "The Soldier's Blue Book"
The first things you will find is the forward, a place for the trainee to write down the chain of command, a place to write down the trainees mailing address, and a complete list of the unit's victim advocate and SHARPS team. The 2008 version was something a Soldier could use. The 2017 edition is just downright bizarre.

Just a quick flip through it will confuse the crap out of anyone that came in during my era.

When I went to boot camp, the Army issued everyone a "SMART" book. You never went anywhere without your smartbook. That little book had everything: the pledge of allegiance, the national anthem, the army song, and all of the other arcane knowledge that troops learn. It also had the task, conditions, and standards for all of the combat takes you needed to learn during boot camp. Putting in a claymore, load-fire-reduce a stoppage, doing a functions check...
...you name it- if the Drill Sgt was going to have you do it - it was in that book.

The current "blue book" looks like a primer for dope smoking hippies. I looked from cover to cover and learned a little about resiliency and found out that during basic training, there is no such thing as a consensual relationship, but I couldn't find anything on how to apply immediate action and remedial action to the M16 series rifle. Maybe the methodologies for training recruits has changed since the mid-80's - who knows.
...but at least the cover photo shows Soldiers throwing hand grenades


Fear not though brave comrades, TRADOC has "a long list of changes and tweaks, with an eye toward a full roll-out in late spring" that should fix everything.

[Golf1echo]

The Army stopped producing warriors in BCT/AIT/OSUT when Jody’s infatuation with Irean’s vagina (aka pussy) stopped keeping soldiers in step. (Oh some of the cadence songs I’ve heard that will make a grown man blush :o )

Thanks for the reminder! I had a long chuckle and smiling ever since. Ground Week on a long run the Black Hat managed a cadence the entire time :eek: ( dedicated to Hanoi Jane)...the things that were said, I realized I wasn't in Kansas anymore!!! The rhythm of that cadence still kicks off in my head from time to time.

I got the impression " Jody" was out of use, when I mention it to younger soldiers they returned a blank look, when I explained it...even blanker looks.

Speaking of those things, a valuable lesson from the Q Course which still is omnipresent, the peer discipline of " Cheeeeeeese". Probably too ugly and mean to still be in use? :rolleyes:

Mustang Man although it's been a while we saw a few guys with issues turn into much better people with higher esteem after constant focus ( probably considered abuse today) in basic ie. our " Little Fat Man" he was down right strack when he left...but several that played the game enough to get by and reverted... easy for me to forget how young some of those guys really were.

[Team Sergeant]

Military Free Fall (HALO) is the same thing as throwing a 'nade.

Not going to use it 99% of the time but it's how you separate the men from the sissies.

Tossing a 'nade is about as a traumatic experience as most "trainees" have yet experienced.

But with the advent of snowflakes/females in combat arms, the 'nade tossing had to go.

Welcome to a kinder, more gentle military. ;)

(Who went to Special Operations Training, SOT when we pulled the pin on a 'nade, let the spoon fly and then tossed it to a buddy who then threw it into the tire pit. ;))

It was never about the 'nade. It was all about the experience.

[7624U]

Drop+Grenade never turns out well in the end for the user.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr2FTwTmz-g

[WarriorDiplomat]

Obama legacy the gift that keeps on giving

Anyone ever notice that the more liberals impose their will the more mass killings and crime their is.....stupid libs criminals and the mentally ill just love these useful idiots.

Well throwing Grenades is dangerous and someone has to be the best and for that reason just eliminate it for the sake of the soldiers feelings....not all boys throw baseballs or better yet snowballs, rocks or fisticuffs defending their gender neutral turf....

Myself I dreamed of the day I would crawl up close to a bunker and toss a grenade in and always thought that in trench warfare I could just throw across no mans land into the trench so many activities...are we pulling the grenade from our arsenal?

[WarriorDiplomat]

Well, I know I'm getting kind of old hand have been out for awhile but there are some things I didn't know about our Army:

There will also be changes in marksmanship training, with recruits required to qualify with iron sight. How long have our basic recruits not been qualifying with iron sights? What happened to the "basics"

starting with codified training for recruits on what it means to be a soldier We quit teaching them about being soldier and what it means??

drill sergeants will evaluate recruits on their discipline, inspect their bunks and bays, and hold drill and ceremony competitions to make sure soldiers are learning how to march, move in a tight formation and handle their weapons in a most basic way This is not already being done? If not why was it stopped? That was basic combat training!

They'll actually be executing some drill and ceremony when they move to and from the chow hall, when they move to and from the barracks So let me understand this; the Drill sgt says to the large gaggle of soldiers "head to the chow hall" and they all just mosey over on their own in whatever gaggle pleases them?

"We also think that if we put the bar where the bar (PT) should be, that bothh the trainees and the drill sergeants will get themselves to that level"
I found the problem. Even the damn drill sergeants can't do any of this stuff! No wonder the need for "drastic" changes.

If a soldier is very close to the 60-60-60 mark, a lieutenant colonel can use discretion to sign off on their PT scores.
Hell, just have the LTC sign of on everyone so everyone gets a participation ribbon and we don't have any losers.

drill sergeants were spending hours at night......teaching trainees how to throw Have been a Drill Sergeant and taken trainees to the grenade range I never spent any hours or minutes at night teaching them how to throw. I never seen a trainee not throw the grenade!

basic training will now add movement to the standard buddy team fire course When was movement taken out of buddy teams? How do you do a "fire course" with a buddy and not move?

the Army is sticking with the 10 week model When did 8 week basic training become 10 weeks (of no basics of marching and non iron sight shooting, no discipline, no buddy movement techniques, no being able to do PT)?


I knew the Army was going down hill but I had no idea it had progressed this far.:(

This what us who are retiring have been saying about the Obama administration and the downhill of the Army's fighting ability....yes what you see above is directly linked to the SF regiments issues as well

[Ret10Echo]

This makes the decision a bit more of a head scratcher right... Just from a practical/tactical perspective.

Looking back to 2016... This story was recently updated so I'll bring it back up.

Michael Sargent's story:

He and his last remaining partner could make a break for the only open door. Taking that route would expose at least one of them to a deadly injury. Insurgents with the big gun just 25 feet away had a clear shot at the exit.

Or, Sargent could try to land a grenade in the doorway the insurgents used to shoot his teammates.

Read more here: http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/military/article77786227.html#storylink=cpy

[bblhead672]

Looking at the Army's fall from combat focused to SJW focused from another angle:
At least it can be some comfort that these are the woosies the Army is going to have to send to put down any insurgency from liberty and freedom loving Americans who are willing to fight to keep the Republic.
Guessing the SJW soldiers will all wet their pants if a real soldier tosses a grenade in amongst them cause none will know how to throw it away.