View Full Version : 12 Strong
I'm sure one of the 595 guys is on this forum. I saw the movie and know there's always liberties with facts but how accurate was the movie? I am still not sure who the team sergeant was and I'm always skeptical when they show an ODA in action and the only guys making decisions are officers. Also, I mean no disrespect, I was on range 65 at Bragg while this mission was going on.
I think one needs to realize,, IT'S HOLLYWOOD..
Everyone that I have read or talk to say:
1)It is O centric,, most blame the use of SEAL's as consultants, The NCO's are not factually represented. SF NCO's are different and they didn't show the complexities of a team.
2)The movie deviates from the book, which deviates from reality, It happens all the time,, BUT it's acceptably close to real..
here is one comparison:
http://www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/12-strong/
Example:
Did Mark Nutsch carry a piece of steel with him from the World Trade Center?
Not exactly. The 12 Strong movie has Chris Hemsworth's character (Mark Nutsch in real life) being given the candy-bar-sized piece of metal by Colonel Mulholland. In Doug Stanton's book Horse Soldiers, it was Colonel Max Bowers, portrayed by Rob Riggle, who brought a piece of steel with him from the World Trade Center to Afghanistan. Payback was certainly on the minds of some members of the team, while others focused primarily on the mission at hand. In the book, Bowers had planned to give the piece of metal to Afghan General Dostum and warlord Atta Muhammad Noor, if needed, to bind them in their common fight against the Taliban.
Later, several months after the Taliban fell, the special operations teams returned to Mazar-i-Sharif to bury the piece of the World Trade Center. They placed it in a body bag and lowered it into the ground. Images of them doing this can be seen below and in Alex Quade's short documentary Horse Soldiers of 9/11. (c video @ 6:30 point)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvTSsMKfL2c
Baby steps. The SEALs are so far ahead of us in Hollywood propaganda anything is a win at this point. FFS the "A Team" with Liam Neeson, Bradley Cooper and Rampage Jackson became a love fest about Rangers, not SF.
Trapper John
01-24-2018, 15:43
Baby steps. The SEALs are so far ahead of us in Hollywood propaganda anything is a win at this point. FFS the "A Team" with Liam Neeson, Bradley Cooper and Rampage Jackson became a love fest about Rangers, not SF.
Not so sure that is a bad thing? Remember we're the Quiet Professionals. ;)
Team Sergeant
01-24-2018, 16:03
Baby steps. The SEALs are so far ahead of us in Hollywood propaganda anything is a win at this point. FFS the "A Team" with Liam Neeson, Bradley Cooper and Rampage Jackson became a love fest about Rangers, not SF.
We're still in the hurt locker for all the Chuck Norris "Special Forces" movies.............:rolleyes:
tom kelly
01-24-2018, 18:27
We're still in the hurt locker for all the Chuck Norris "Special Forces" movies.............:rolleyes:
Let's not forget Sylvester Stallone who portrays the character John Rambo, A Vietnam Veteran Green Beret, who received The Medal of Honor for his service in Vietnam. Also Col. Sam Trautman "Richard Crenna the actor who saves Rambo.....Tom Kelly
I think one needs to realize,, IT'S HOLLYWOOD..
Everyone that I have read or talk to say:
2)The movie deviates from the book, which deviates from reality, It happens all the time,, BUT it's acceptably close to real..
Yep it's a depiction of Afghanistan and they rode horses. win!
The antenna falling off the rock and someone going to get it was also a good scene.
It was not a bad depiction of an ODA, it wasn't a bunch of muscle heads in smeadium Tee shirts so that's good. I was just disgusted with the main characters being officers. No idea who the TM SGT was and lets face it, the TM SGT is the center of gravity of an ODA. However, I agree, the quiet professional aspect is preferable, would just like to see an accurate portrayal of an ODA someday.
Trapper John
01-25-2018, 10:39
It was not a bad depiction of an ODA, it wasn't a bunch of muscle heads in smeadium Tee shirts so that's good. I was just disgusted with the main characters being officers. No idea who the TM SGT was and lets face it, the TM SGT is the center of gravity of an ODA. However, I agree, the quiet professional aspect is preferable, would just like to see an accurate portrayal of an ODA someday.
Agree, but with SEAL technical advisors what'd ya expect? :D
Agree, but with SEAL technical advisors what'd ya expect? :D
You have to understand where Officers stand in the Navy/Marine Corps...there is no NCO Corps in those services with the authority that NCO's have in the US Army and especially in SF.
I did not get this until I was CSM of a Joint Unit...even SEALs don't get our position.
They still have separate beach's at R&R Naval facilities...enlisted/Warrant/O's...you do not mix.
I often wondered why 'Gunny's run the Corps'....now why the hell would an E7 run the Corps? When a Marine makes E8 they move him from his primary MOS to a 1SG/supervisory position in another MOS...an Infantry 1SG in an Aviation unit.
Why, they say for 'crossbreeding' but the real reason is they don't want a 1SG with more knowledge than his CO...they want the 1SG to be simply an administrator and that is what he is reduced too....samo in the Navy.
The Gunny's run the 'tactical' or 'technical' elements because the 1SG is clueless about the nuts and bolts......he is a admin guy just like the CO wants.
Visiting a MC GO once with my Commander, also a GO....they were in the MC Go's office with the door open....I was with the MC SGM...
I walked into the office as I normally would....the MC SGM stopped at the threshold and waited for permission to enter.
I was freakin shocked....and embarresed for him.
BTW, I was on 595......about 40 years ago :)
...BTW, I was on 595......about 40 years ago :)
595 31 years ago.
Streck-Fu
01-25-2018, 12:08
You have to understand where Officers stand in the Navy/Marine Corps...there is no NCO Corps in those services with the authority that NCO's have in the US Army and especially in SF.
I did not get this until I was CSM of a Joint Unit...even SEALs don't get our position.
They still have separate beach's at R&R Naval facilities...enlisted/Warrant/O's...you do not mix.
You should visit a Navy ship sometime and compare the enlisted galley with the officer wardroom. Utilitarian galley for the enlisted and proper plates, table clothes, silver for the officers.
I had no clue until I joined how segregated the enlisted were from officers. It really is an artifact of the old British royalty influence. They are treated as two totally different classes.
You have to understand where Officers stand in the Navy/Marine Corps...there is no NCO Corps in those services with the authority that NCO's have in the US Army and especially in SF.
I did not get this until I was CSM of a Joint Unit...even SEALs don't get our position.
They still have separate beach's at R&R Naval facilities...enlisted/Warrant/O's...you do not mix.
I often wondered why 'Gunny's run the Corps'....now why the hell would an E7 run the Corps? When a Marine makes E8 they move him from his primary MOS to a 1SG/supervisory position in another MOS...an Infantry 1SG in an Aviation unit.
Why, they say for 'crossbreeding' but the real reason is they don't want a 1SG with more knowledge than his CO...they want the 1SG to be simply an administrator and that is what he is reduced too....samo in the Navy.
The Gunny's run the 'tactical' or 'technical' elements because the 1SG is clueless about the nuts and bolts......he is a admin guy just like the CO wants.
Visiting a MC GO once with my Commander, also a GO....they were in the MC Go's office with the door open....I was with the MC SGM...
I walked into the office as I normally would....the MC SGM stopped at the threshold and waited for permission to enter.
I was freakin shocked....and embarresed for him.
BTW, I was on 595......about 40 years ago :)
PRB that is some great information regarding the difference in the services, my brother in law was an E9 in the Navy I am gonna ask him for his POV on this. I consider being part of this forum as continuing education, THANKS!!
Navy has/had more clubs than you could shake a stick at. EM Club, Acey Duecy(?) Club, PO Club and Chief's Club to name a few.
Mess Hall was segregated into EM section, PO section and Officer's section. The one time I was on a ship food was also served by rank.
Two times I went out on subs it was more relaxed - but the officers still had their own room - I think. Wasn't really paying that much attention.
Navy has/had more clubs than you could shake a stick at. EM Club, Acey Duecy(?) Club, PO Club and Chief's Club to name a few.
Mess Hall was segregated into EM section, PO section and Officer's section. The one time I was on a ship food was also served by rank.
Two times I went out on subs it was more relaxed - but the officers still had their own room - I think. Wasn't really paying that much attention.
When we use the APSS Sealion in 69 they had O & EM mess. The cooks were contracted and Philipean. My understanding is they were working for Green Cards??
All the SF guys used the O mess. Food was outrageous, like a 5star. Probably had to do with the sub having two O6 skippers. It was one of the last trips before it was decommissioned.
We also use the O beach on Truman Annex for night compass & 2K swims.
Never use the KW NAS clubs,, we all went to a bar called the White Horse. on the corner of White St & Truman Ave.
Pre-Just Cause i was attached to SEAL Team 4. The first time i was in their mess was strange (for an Army SSG). I go through the line and get my chow, pick up my tray to take it to a table and this E1-2 grabs my tray. I tell him not so kindly that, "this is my chow, go get your own," using some flowery words to that effect.
The Petty Officer from the platoon then explained to me that the seaman was trying to do his job and one came up and took his tray.
They grabbed silverware, drinks, and bussed the table when we were done.
Trapper John
01-25-2018, 17:00
PRB, Joker, JJ - Incredible, I had no idea the Navy was so strict with O, PO, EM segregation! In contrast this reminds me of an incident (circa '73): I was team medic (A535) and we were preparing for pre-deployment to Iran in AZ. I was over at 5th Group HQ for some reason and was walking by some admin 2LT that was also a ring knocker. I heard him tell another O that if he were hurt that he wanted a Dr. not some enlisted medic attending to him. I just looked him square in the eye as I walked by him.
As it turned out he was on the plane where I just happened to be JM on our insertion during the training FTX in AZ. When I landed I did what any JM and good medic would do, I began a head count and a check for injuries rucking back to the RP.
As fate would have it that 2LT was on the ground in pain and as I approached we recognized each other. I knelt down to examine him and determined that he just sprained a knee but didn't say anything. I stood up, looked down at him and said "I'll see if I can find a Doc at the RP. You stay put Sir!" Saluted smartly and headed out.
Don't know if he ever got the message, but I was chuckling. :)
Surf n Turf
01-25-2018, 18:49
The Navy / Marine Corps is split on more than just enlisted, chief, and O's. There is a caste system within each
You have LDO's (Limited duty Officers (x-em). who typically have a "unique" skill, and is promoted directly. He exhibits "leadership skills" (like Engineering officer) that are not required of a WO. If memory serves, He is senior to a Chief Warrant (W5), but cannot command a vessel. He is also restricted in rank, which was at Lt. Commander (Major). He is often the butt of jokes from "real" officers in the Ward Room. I believe that same is true with the Marine Corps...except being the butt of jokes... I don't think a jarhead would tolerate it.
Then you have Staff / Line officers. Same ranks, but the Line Officers (Stars on the sleeve) are in command of vessels, and the staff officers (Supply, Intel, etc. ) are not. Bad breach of protocol for a staff officer to call out a line officer..regardless of rank. :eek:
In the higher O category you have Rear Admiral (08), and Rear Admiral (lower-half O7). Same uniform, same rank insignia (but the wife's know the pecking order). I use to ride the bus into the Pentagon (in the basement, if that dates me) with an Army Brigadier General (O7) who did not rate a staff car, but his counterpart (Navy O7) did... I thought it was amusing...the General did not.
The navy has a rating, Stewart (use to be all Pilipino, the only ratings open to them) that are the personal valet of the officer corps. They did everything from shining the shoes, making the beds, to serving dinner in the ward room. They kept a separate mess, and funding was applied to each officers "tab", which he reconciled monthly. Sort of like a club. I understand that the rating is now changed to Culinary Specialists (Cooks), or Mess Management Specialist. Still heavily Filipino, and still an avenue to citizenship for Filipino's.
Warrant officers, open only to enlisted Chief's (E7 up), on the same grading as the Army. Was very difficult to obtain, as the CO had to approve, and live with the empty slot until filled at selection time. I had several acquaintances who lost out because of "command concern" I believe the Navy has now opened up the warrant program up, in certain fields (cyber, CT, Intel) wherein a 1st Class (E6) can apply. I also believe the Next level up from the command now approves, thus removing the "shortage" problem from the CO's mind / plate.
I understand that a great deal of this nonsense "disappears" in the "silent service" of our Sub Fleet.:D
SnT
miclo18d
01-25-2018, 20:25
When I was in Ranger Batt as a freshly tabbed E-4 in the early 90s, I was sent ADVON to Camp Lejune, to be part of the DZSO party.
We arrived and were put in a barracks on the School of Infantry for the night. The next morning we went to the chow hall in civies. WOW! We went and gave our chow numbers or paid as on any military DFAC. Right behind our group of like 6 Rangers came the Duty NCO (can’t remember the acronym on his brassard) armed with a 1911. He took one look at the guy at the end of our line and told him to get out of the chow hall with sweatpants on. Our guy told him, “Roger that, Sarn’t!” As any good Ranger would. HOLY SHIT, the dude almost stroked out right then and there! “I’M A STAFF SERGEANT, BOOT!”
“Roger that, Sarn’t!”
Our “Sarn’t” also an E-6, went to calm everything down explaining who we were and that we didn’t know the rules. Calmed it down and we all went to sit down at a table as a group. The Staff Sergeant quickly informed us that only our Staff Sergeant could sit there and pointed out the signs above the groups of tables that indicated all the different castes within the USMC. Officers, senior enlisted, mid enlisted and lower enlisted. We just ended up at the lowest common denominator table of the lower enlisted and the SDNCO finally chilled the eff out.
It was just not how we ate in Ranger Batt with the squad and sometimes the entire platoon eating together.
Camp Lejune
Yeah, interesting place. We were going down to PR with a Force Recon Company.
Me and Rick R - both SFCs - were sent down early so of course we decided to go get a beer. Went to the first club we found on base and it sounded like it was hopping.
A nice lady at the door stopped us and said we looked a little old to be going in there. She asked for our IDs and said "Sorry, you can't come in here. You have to go to the Chief's Club." After one beer there we went out the gate.
I was on Sigonella NAS once and walked up to a duty desk to ask where something was on that base while I was in civilian cloths. The guy in the office was a E-8 and I said how is everything Chief ? as in Chief Petty Officer. He looked at me and gave me a snappy comeback like he wanted to kick my ass and said That's Senior Chief ! I thought for a min and replied yea I know I was in the Coast Guard and I am the same rank as you! If you tell me where such and such is I will be on my way. He just pointed and said building # its two blocks that way. I knew I really pissed him off but what was he going to do to me lol.
Old Dog New Trick
01-26-2018, 22:21
Just watched the movie with my boy, he liked it.
I thought I was watching another Navy SEAL movie. So many things wrong but that’s probably a good thing. Hate for people to know us SF guys are a lot more professional.
That team would have failed Robin Sage on day one. :rolleyes::p
As others have commented the movie was all about the TL. Hell, I don’t even know who the TS was...
And the medic failed badly the Chief would have been completely stabilized with tubes and fingers in every orifice to include the fifth intercostal space before that bird showed up.
frostfire
01-27-2018, 12:05
Cross checking what I've gleaned from all the years at Bragg
- Would you rate the TL scene of selling the team a good one with his solid grasp of the tribal politics and weather constraint?
Cross thread reference to a thread here of what makes a good O is being a solid liaison to the higher up
- Is the TL expected to lead charge and all gung ho in an ODA?
Those scenes seem against all the 18As' advice given to me. They emphasized their primary weapon system are the radio and 10 to 12 hard charging professions. I imagine a good TS would have yanked the rambo TL back?
I've received my own dose of reality check when I showed off my knowledge and proficiency on what the bravo, Charlie, and delta do to an SF turned SMU SGM. He stopped me right there, told me he already got all that in the team, and that what he really needed is a good O.
Thank you for the education
Old Dog New Trick
01-27-2018, 15:16
I won’t go into too many details but, suffice to say the movie was (all) about Captain Nelson and everyone else was a supporting actor including the Northern Alliance. Whether that is SEAL advisory input or the script I don’t know. The story was about one man and the decisions he made.
Teams do not (did not in 2001) operate the way the movie portrayed it. The whole team (teams available) would have gone through isolation procedures and conducted a ‘briefback’ to the commander and the commander would then make his recommendations JSOC as to which team was best prepared and understood the mission. Their would have been a primary and an alternate teams selected and all would then train and rehearse until wheels-up.
Also, no team in play would know about any other team in play. There is no competition (to compromise) in the field only mission objectives and limits of advance.
The movie met its purpose and audience, people clapped and applauded at the end of the movie and were touched by the revelation that no one (on the ODA) died.
I spent too much thought criticizing all that was horribly wrong with the movie rather than enjoy it for what it was. Maybe the name is wrong, it should have been called “1 Strong” then I would know going in it was all about “ME” and not Team!
Like I said, my 10-y/o enjoyed it immensely and asked me questions the whole time. I had to tell him to be quiet more than once even though the theater was practically empty (on Friday night) maybe 1% of seats sold for this movie. He now thinks all Taliban must die! :D