SFG/UDT Randall Knife

[RCummings]

Model 16 Diver Knife, A member of a Randall knife collectors club posted this knife. He is an admin and looking for further information. What follows is his text of information,

Below is a picture from a Model #16 Diver. It has an unlined thong hole and a seperate S stamp. That places it pretty tight between 1964 and 1968. The picture is of the shop etch on the back side of the blade.
"Ith. SFG / UDT"
The SFG is Special Forces Group
The UDT is Underwater Demolition Team. The UDT was the precursor to the Navy Seals.
My question surrounds the "Ith"
Do any of our Vets have any intel????
Thanks in advance.

Photograph follows in link,


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156044930412436&set=gm.1507800416006081&type=3&ifg=1

I do not know how to paste his photograph, the link is from the Facebook collectors closed group.

Respectfully,

Bob

[Astronomy]

Wild-assed guess...

1. The imprint is a mistake and was supposed to say "7th SFG / UDT"

2. "UDT" stood for Underwater Dive Team back in the olden days of Army SF...

My 1978 ordered Model 16 has my initials factory engraved. They managed to get those letters right. But accidents happen. Especially back in a non-digital day/age of handwritten customer order forms.

I'd be surprised if Randall doesn't have the original order for the blade (and requested engraving) on file somewhere.

(I didn't see the linked picture.)

[RCummings]

Thank you Astronomy!

Our small group has a historian from Randall. Records of the "mark" are not available.
Did the photograph not load? If this is the case I will try an alternative. I also have a Randall from the mid '60s and will compare the marking.

It seemed from the mark that some is missing for an unknown reason but, what was clear was the year of manufacture and an individual who claimed both SFG and UDT heritage enough to apply it to a Dive Model Randall.

The folks in this group do come up with some very obscure Randalls.

Respectfully,

Bob

[RCummings]

34620

[RCummings]

I hope the above photograph helps.

Respectfully,

Bob

[JJ_BPK]

Ith

Could be 7th or 1st?? :munchin

Is the FB group Randall only or SF or UDT or pointy things ???

[RCummings]

JJ BPK,

They are Randall only, a great group of gentlemen.

V/R

Bob

[Team Sergeant]

Ith. SFG/UDT doesn't make sense to me. Then again the A-Teams would have all sorts of stuff made for them so it could have been a team thing. Possible to see the entire knife?

[RCummings]

I'll shoot that message. I was also interested in seeing more photographs. Get EMS ready for me trying to move the photos from FB to here...

Respectfully,

Bob

[RCummings]

34622

34623

[Old Dog New Trick]

I think it’s an Old English take on one or first. As the the ‘first’ SFG/UDT.

1TH is the same as 1ST only it wouldn’t be confused with 1ST SFG(A).

When was the very first SF Underwater Dive Team authorized? Might be a clue to the origins of the knife which looks remarkably well. I don’t think any letters or inscription is missing. I’d also look at type face from the period and see why the larger space between SF G / UD T because it’s not a whole space but something the typewriter key set did. Looks “Times Roman” but not sure.

[RCummings]

ODNT,

Interesting take, I had not noticed and none of the comments mentioned what you observed. Would it be ok to forward your comment to the collectors site? I would copy and paste without anything except your text. I will wait for the official ok before doing anything.

V/R

Bob

[Old Dog New Trick]

Sure go ahead. I noticed that the TH were caps but smaller than the “I” or “1” when I googled 1TH it came with that use in old Cardinal numbers not Ordinal numbers which would use the correct 1ST (1st).

[Team Sergeant]

I think it’s an Old English take on one or first. As the the ‘first’ SFG/UDT.

1TH is the same as 1ST only it wouldn’t be confused with 1ST SFG(A).

When was the very first SF Underwater Dive Team authorized? Might be a clue to the origins of the knife which looks remarkably well. I don’t think any letters or inscription is missing. I’d also look at type face from the period and see why the larger space between SF G / UD T because it’s not a whole space but something the typewriter key set did. Looks “Times Roman” but not sure.

Now I'm confused. How the heck is 1TH the same as 1st? I was in 1st and never heard of 1TH. anywhere. And why the "." after the 1TH ? Looks to me as if something is abbreviated.

And why is 1TH. so far away from SFG/UDT ? If I ordered the knife it would read:

1st SFG(A) ODA-XXX UDT

[Old Dog New Trick]

Now I'm confused. How the heck is 1TH the same as 1st? I was in 1st and never heard of 1TH. anywhere. And why the "." after the 1TH ? Looks to me as if something is abbreviated.

And why is 1TH. so far away from SFG/UDT ? If I ordered the knife it would read:

1st SFG(A) ODA-XXX UDT

I don’t know Heffe. Only that 1TH. (even the period “.” is present) is an old and unused way to say 1ST. As in ‘Oneth’.

Do we know when the first Dive Team got created in SF? Do we even know if this instance of SFG means Special Forces Group and this use of SFG is something Navy speak?

I agree that if I had my Randall engraved it would say something about my ODA like you said. My knife looks like shit compared to this one so for a UDT knife it never saw salt water.

[Team Sergeant]

I just spent 20 minutes of my life looking for 1TH. references, and can’t find any. If it was a “new” knife I’d call it a bad Chinese fake and the "1st" translation was also bad. I mean we have used 1st for decades, 1st Special Service Force for example formed in 1942. I can find no examples of “1TH.”

Might be easier to ask who was doing the Randall engraving?

And could it be a fake?

[RCummings]

TS,

The collector has been asked this question, he's willing to bet the farm the knife is real. The collectors group is trying to determine what the story is with the mark, so far it is standing up to scrutiny. I will be posting my fathers Randall to compare markings from 1967, style size and type for comparison. It is very rare to find markings that cannot be identified but I imagine that it happens. I am unaware of any Randall marked from the shop that was in error, the knife would have been sent back, in the off chance it made it out the doors in the first place.

Would SFG/UDT have been somewhat obscure or not common? Between PS.com and a worldwide Randall collector club I believe if there is an answer we'll find it.

Respectfully,

Bob

[Team Sergeant]

Knowing the knifes provenance would help. And I hope you understand what I’m saying, it looks strange and if someone wanted their group on the knife that should have been very easy to do and unmistakable. 1st SFG or 1st SFG(A).

My specialty was Military Free Fall, sometimes referred to as MFF or HALO. In my years I’ve only heard of the dive teams (in Special Forces) referred to as SCUBA teams, dive teams, or combat dive teams, but not UDT. If you google UDT it all comes up Navy UDT and I’ve not heard of “Special Forces UDT”.

My guess, it was made for a “civilian” that asked for Special Forces engraving and didn’t know what to ask for…… I now doubt it was made for a “real” SF soldier.

I'm sure my SCUBA brothers will chime in soon.

[RCummings]

Thank you TS, I understand the terminology and I think that is why this knife was listed on the collector site with questions. The collector could not make heads or tails of the mark and out of all the observations made no one could figure them out. I asked one of the admins, in this case he was also the collector of the knife, if he would mind if I reposted. This knife has flummoxed folks who have a great deal of knowledge about almost every aspect of Randall knives. The next place to find information out about the mark is here, with the wealth of knowledge about Special Forces. If information exists about, "SFG/UDT it is here.

The collector will think long and hard about sending it back to Randall to be refinished. It is not an expensive job but, the knife is worth much more with a story.

Respectfully,

Bob

[Astronomy]

I didn't originally view the picture because I don't do Facebook. After you re-posted the image on the forum, I looked at it. It's a puzzler.

My Randall 16 was ordered to my specs back in '78. The only engraving I had added to the blade were my initials. On my knife, they do not look like the letters on your depicted blade. Specifically, mine were not filled in with that contrasting light color. Thinner font as well.

Perhaps somebody besides the Randall shop added that lettering at a later date?

"Ith."? It might mean something to the person who ordered that engraving... and no one else on Earth.

Nothing SF-related comes to mind concerning "Ith." or "1th." Other than Group numerical designations. All of which likely permutations would require an error in engraving (11th, 5th, 7th, 10th, etc.). And none of which would require inclusion of a "period" as ending punctuation.

The reason I brought up the part about hand filled order forms is because I can distinctly remember filling mine out (little single letter squares on the order form) with a ball-point pen... then sending it off with a check via snail mail. If the customer was a sloppy or careless printer, his desired letters might have been misinterpreted. Maybe he never bothered to send it back for re-work. I waited 5 or 6 months for my blade to show up in the mail. It wasn't a day and age of instant gratification cell-phone & e-mail.

Alternatively... if a previous owner had the engraving done somewhere else, who knows if the local engraver didn't just screw it up? Or that the effort was an attempt at adding false provenance by someone unfamiliar with SOF.

[RCummings]

Astronomy,

Thank you for your insight! It seems the trail has gone cold. The origin may never be known. Any of the items could have happened thats for sure. One thing that came up during my research was in the early 60s frogmen trained SF for SCUBA sometimes and in return the frogmen would be trained by SF for parachute insertion, per the SEAL/UDT museum records. Thank all of you folks for your help!

Very respectfully,

Bob

[RCummings]

I received a response regarding the engraving on the Randall Dive knife. I have copied and pasted with the permission of the respondent. V/R Bob

David A Manning
Small Arms and Ordnance Curator
Curator Branch
Naval History and Heritage Command

Your request for information regarding the Randall knife was forwarded to me to answer.


The engraving on the knife in question is confusing and, based on my experience, rather questionable. "Ith." appears to be an attempt to write 1st, but by someone unfamiliar with the English language. The combination of SFG and UDT would also point to someone who is unfamiliar with the actual organization and history of the US military. As you may know, the correct abbreviation for an Army Special Forces Group would be SFG(A), as in 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne). However, UDT is an exclusively Navy abbreviation for the Underwater Demolition Teams formed during WWII as a result of the difficulties encountered during the Tarawa invasion in 1943. There is no connection between the two organizations that I am aware of. Finally, I know of no instance of the Army ever having used the term UDT. Army special operations units use the term UWA for Underwater Operations Team, or colloquially SCUBA Teams.


My opinion would be that the engraving is much more recent than the 1960's and that it was likely done in Asia. There is quite a bit of "fake" material coming out of Vietnam that is intended to represent material from the war, but is modern in manufacture. An example would be cigarette lighters with engraving for various US military units and locations within Vietnam that have similar mistakes in grammar and unit designations as this knife.


I hope this is useful information.


V/R

Dave Manning

[Team Sergeant]

I received a response regarding the engraving on the Randall Dive knife. I have copied and pasted with the permission of the respondent. V/R Bob

David A Manning
Small Arms and Ordnance Curator
Curator Branch
Naval History and Heritage Command

Your request for information regarding the Randall knife was forwarded to me to answer.


The engraving on the knife in question is confusing and, based on my experience, rather questionable. "Ith." appears to be an attempt to write 1st, but by someone unfamiliar with the English language. The combination of SFG and UDT would also point to someone who is unfamiliar with the actual organization and history of the US military. As you may know, the correct abbreviation for an Army Special Forces Group would be SFG(A), as in 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne). However, UDT is an exclusively Navy abbreviation for the Underwater Demolition Teams formed during WWII as a result of the difficulties encountered during the Tarawa invasion in 1943. There is no connection between the two organizations that I am aware of. Finally, I know of no instance of the Army ever having used the term UDT. Army special operations units use the term UWA for Underwater Operations Team, or colloquially SCUBA Teams.


My opinion would be that the engraving is much more recent than the 1960's and that it was likely done in Asia. There is quite a bit of "fake" material coming out of Vietnam that is intended to represent material from the war, but is modern in manufacture. An example would be cigarette lighters with engraving for various US military units and locations within Vietnam that have similar mistakes in grammar and unit designations as this knife.


I hope this is useful information.


V/R

Dave Manning


So he said what we said earlier........ ;)

[RCummings]

Absolutely TS!

In further conversations it seemed that the gentleman who responded had seen this particular work before almost the exact shop. I thought it a good idea to post his response. The collector does not agree, but as far as the collectors involved the knife is at most an example of a correct Randall Dive knife from the mid '60s no more or less. Since this knife has been researched and logged it should not show up for sale as anything but what it is. Thank you all for your insights!

Respectfully,

Bob