View Full Version : Bump Stocks, thoughts?
Team Sergeant
12-29-2017, 14:29
Wanna see a bunch of SF soldiers argue? :D
ATF Accepting Public Comment on Backdoor Bump Stock Gun Control
by AWR Hawkins28 Dec 2017
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives is currently accepting public comment on their plans for backdoor bump stock gun control.
On December 22 Breitbart News reported a Department of Justice announcement that the ATF would be seeking to redefine the term “machinegun,” so as to include aftermarket devices that do not convert semiautomatic firearms into fully automatic weapons. As of now, only mechanisms/alterations that truly convert a semi-action into a full-action are governed by the National Firearms Act (1934). The efforts to redefine the term “machinegun” center on new controls for devices that merely “mimic” full auto fire.
The pertinent portion of the DOJ’s announcement:
Those engaged in the business of manufacturing, importing, or dealing in NFA firearms must be registered with the Attorney General. 26 U.S.C. 5801, 5802. When the NFA was enacted in 1934, only a handful of firearms qualified as machineguns, such as the Thompson submachine gun. Over time, however, as firearms technologies have advanced, manufacturers and the public have attempted to develop firearms, triggers, and other devices that permit shooters to use semiautomatic rifles to replicate automatic fire without converting these rifles into “machineguns” within the meaning of the statute. Consequently, questions have arisen about whether these types of devices should be classified as machineguns (or machinegun conversion devices) pursuant to section 5845(b). See, e.g., Internal Revenue Ruling 55-528 (1955) (considering whether types of “Gatling Guns” constitute machineguns); ATF Ruling 2006-2 (examining a firearms accessory device that, when activated by a single pull of the trigger, initiated an automatic firing cycle that continued until release).
TF has issued a number of private letters to individuals and manufacturers who voluntarily submitted such devices for classification under the NFA and GCA. In addition, ATF has promulgated a regulation that defines “machinegun,” See 28 CFR 478.11, but that regulation mirrors the statutory language of the NFA and GCA and provides no further interpretation.
The ATF’s intention to redefine the term “machinegun” was published in the Federal Register on December 26, 2017. The agency is accepting public comments on their plans for backdoor gun control from now until late January.
cont:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/28/atf-backdoor-bump-stock-gun-control/
Team Sergeant
12-29-2017, 14:35
But then again, I've never used one. And if you want to see very inaccurate fire, then just try full auto.
I'm against American Law Enforcement, federal, state and local from employing fully automatic fire for one and only one reason, it does not discriminate. Fully automatic fire is only useful when employed to kill many targets and it comes from a military machinegun.
And yeah, I'd be the first "expert witness" on a murder trial against law enforcement for employing a fully automatic weapon against human targets.
Badger52
12-29-2017, 16:15
I think they're pretty much worthless (and I've used one that belonged to a friend of a brother-in-law). They are admittedly a hoot for the range entertainment factor but, oh yeah, worthless.
I do not want ATF re-writing the definition of anything unless they're getting out a big eraser.
bblhead672
12-29-2017, 16:42
I have one succinct comment for the ATF: "Shall not infringe."
I neither want nor need a bump stock, but I also don't want the ATF emboldened to start placing new restrictions on civilian ownership of firearms and accessories.
sfshooter
12-29-2017, 18:06
I have no use for a bump stock. I completely agree with TS on automatic fire. I also have no use for a .500 nitro pistol. That doesn't mean someone out there gets some enjoyment out of one or the other. Shooting is a sport and a past time for honest people and what ever "trips their trigger" to make them go out and buy useless things to shoot, then more power to them.
The ATF does not need to redefine, rewrite, or add to any current gun control statutes. There is enough stupidity in them as it is.
I don't think they or automatic weapons should be restricted.
The founders didn't want anything restricted. The Redcoats were after the cannons that the Colonists had cached at Concord. If we were fighting them today they may have been after an Abrams stored in a garage. Should we be able to have a B-52? Sure, if the militia can come up with the funds to buy one. But there are workarounds.
Bump Stocks are for burning money and for the untrained to feel cool.
Controlled pairs/double-tapping is the way to go.
I'm all for anything that would make the bureaucrats unhappy - I dont think they are worth their weight in dog shit but knowing they make the ATF unhappy makes me think everyone should have one
mojaveman
12-29-2017, 22:25
Bump Stocks are for burning money and for the untrained to feel cool.
Agree. A costly cheap thrill and a complete waste of ammo.
Well aimed medium range fire with my AR or M1A out in the desert is a lot more interesting.
miclo18d
12-30-2017, 05:50
The first time I saw bump fire was my younger brother. He used a ball point pen against a post. Banning them solves nothing. Using them is a waste.
Here’s a thought, put crazy people in institutions and arrest criminals!
Leozinho
12-30-2017, 09:45
The founders didn't want anything restricted. The Redcoats were after the cannons that the Colonists had cached at Concord. If we were fighting them today they may have been after an Abrams stored in a garage. Should we be able to have a B-52? Sure, if the militia can come up with the funds to buy one. But there are workarounds.
So you are fine with grenades and RPGs for anyone with the cash to purchase one?
So you are fine with grenades and RPGs for anyone with the cash to purchase one?
For an organized militia group as the Constitution intended, yes. What were cannons back in 1775? There was adult leadership back then. I admit that today it may be problematic. But, in theory, that was the idea.
Leozinho
12-30-2017, 11:06
For an organized militia group as the Constitution intended, yes. What were cannons back in 1775? There was adult leadership back then. I admit that today it may be problematic. But, in theory, that was the idea.
So not allowed for the masses, but okay for an organized militia, if I understand you correctly.
Is there currently a militia that meets your definition of organized?
Grenades, RPG's, etc ARE allowed under the current NFA laws. If you have the proper licenses, you can even have HE rounds (the storage requirements are the largest restriction and cost). Machineguns are not / have never been illegal. They only require a $200 tax paid to the government. The largest cost associated with purchasing an actual full-auto machine gun is that according to the 1986 Hugh's amendment, no more can be manufactured thus driving the cost of all previously registered FA weapons through the roof. However, Destructive Devices such as cannons (mortars / artillery), rocket launchers (RPG's / LAW's), and grenade launchers (M203 / M320 / etc) can all be newly manufactured and transferred to normal civilians. The ammunition is expensive, but so were the stores of powder and shot that the red coats were after.......
Team Sergeant
12-30-2017, 11:36
For an organized militia group as the Constitution intended, yes. What were cannons back in 1775? There was adult leadership back then. I admit that today it may be problematic. But, in theory, that was the idea.
So WMD’s are good to go too? You know for “organized militia groups” ……. (Before we continue I need to get some tinfoil ready.)
Laws limiting machineguns were enacted decades ago. They are still legal and quite expensive, and you must go through hell to own one. A law I’d like to see is when we limit the sale of firepower to civilians the same is done for law enforcement. There is absolutely no reason for the FBI, DEA, ATF, state or local law enforcement to have a machinegun in their arsenal. But most have them and they need to be banned.
We are stopped from modifying our vehicles in many ways to keep them “street legal”. And just like the vehicles we have laws that stop us from modifying guns making them fully automatic. We all know that the bump stock is a work around solution to the poor mans machinegun. Ever heard of Tannerite? Poor mans explosive and widely available to the most stupid humans on the planet.
I don’t have the answer of how to keep nasty tools out of the hands of idiots. No one is going to outlaw cars/trucks, but we consider 35k killed on our highways every year the cost of doing business. Unlike most “anti-gun” Americans I’ve little doubt why all left-wing politicians want guns banned and it’s the same exact reason they would ban free speech given the opportunity. It’s all about controlling the masses.
In 2014 it was said we had 253 million cars and trucks on U.S. roads and every year they kill 35k people. Guns on the other hand number more than 300 million and some think as high as 600 million guns in America. Annually they are used to “murder” just over 8k with the other thousands being suicide. So why are some Americans screaming for more gun laws and not more vehicle laws? Socialist/communist control.
The socialist/communist activists fear a man with a bolt action rifle and three rounds more than any vehicle on the road, and for good reason. It’s obvious they don’t fear the law of the land, they do however fear those that would take the law into their own hands.
And there’s more to be cautious of than guns……. Armed robots employed by law enforcement is one.
“In July 2016, Dallas police chief David Brown decided to end a violent standoff1 with Micah Johnson,2 who had fatally shot five officers and wounded several more, in an unusual way.3 As a makeshift solution, the police attached a pound of the plastic explosive C4 to a Remotec F-5,4 a robot designed for bomb disposal.5 The intentional detonation of the explosive killed Johnson, and was the first deliberate use by American police of a robot armed with deadly force.6”
https://www.uclalawreview.org/policing-police-robots/
(Personally, I don’t really care how law enforcement killed this bottom-feeder after what he did, that said we need to ponder how law enforcement does business in the United States.)
Pick your battles wisely.
So not allowed for the masses, but okay for an organized militia, if I understand you correctly.
Is there currently a militia that meets your definition of organized?
I was just using the term as used in the Constitution. There is an example, though. Volunteer fire departments. Members of small ones may pool their resources and purchase used firefighting equipment and train to use them correctly. They also set up a means to rally the volunteers when needed. I would call this "regulated" as I understand the term from the Constitution.
An organized militia could do the same, pool resources to purchase big ticket items, set up an armory, and train regularly to maintain proficiency. Pretty much what the Patriots did it seems.
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
...yep, I'm ok with grenades and rocket launchers. If you use one in a crime, you go away to a Joe Arpaio style prison to suffer punishment. No xbox, no internet, no free time reading comic books.
Spending a career in the military that put me in direct contact with our nations federal and local law enforcement agencies as well as some of our nations most elite warriors has taught me an unarguable truth - the individuals that make up the military and police can't be trusted any more or any less than any other US citizen.
A good government should ALWAYS be afraid of its citizens. A government that does not FEAR the citizens will eventually tyrannize the citizens.
Now you are going down the rabbit hole of only Militas have the right and 2nd amendment is a collective right not individual. That means the National Guard meets that criteria and now we are back to as single private citizens the 2nd amendment does not apply so give up all your firearms.
Either you believe each person can own a RPG or they can not.
Do you think I should be able to go to Cabelas and buy a RPG off the shelf? That is the question. I am not saying one way or the other but the milita only statement does not apply according to Heller vs DC.
I was using militia as a "pooling of funds" source, not something that you are sworn into. This is why I mentioned "adult leadership". Nutcases can go on youtube and learn to make the equivalent of both of the above-mentioned items.
Leozinho
12-30-2017, 12:00
I was just using the term as used in the Constitution. There is an example, though. Volunteer fire departments. Members of small ones may pool their resources and purchase used firefighting equipment and train to use them correctly. They also set up a means to rally the volunteers when needed. I would call this "regulated" as I understand the term from the Constitution.
An organized militia could do the same, pool resources to purchase big ticket items, set up an armory, and train regularly to maintain proficiency. Pretty much what the Patriots did it seems.
Twice you've replied without clearly answering my questions.
Twice you've replied without clearly answering my questions.
Yes, I would be OK with it. The penalties for misuse should be major, though.
Most bump stock fans I've witnessed are grossly overweight cybergamers.
As for MG's, I've believed since '79 they should be limited to 3-round, aimed bursts.
That' how I used my pig. Did a lot more damage that way.
Most bump stock fans I've witnessed are grossly overweight cybergamers.
As for MG's, I've believed since '79 they should be limited to 3-round, aimed bursts.
That' how I used my pig. Did a lot more damage that way.
That's an interesting statement. I'v never shot full auto and don't even fire much fast single shot. My Walter Mitty fantasies run more to one shot, one kill. :D
That said, I understand that at least one of the M-16 family of weapons had a 2 or 3 round burst selector you could use instead of full auto, but they got rid of it. Hows come??
My feeling about RPG's and such is to leave them out of the hands of civilians. It gets rid of the low hanging fruit of the ability of nut cases to use one. Serious cases will always be able to improvise with common available stuff anyway. Look at Ted Kosinski.
I once told some anti AR types that I could do serious damage rolling around the country side at 2 am with a 30 caliber bolt action and a pocket full of rounds without even shooting anybody.
Heck, let me steal a pick up truck, buy a lot of rope and some grappling hooks!! :p
Peregrino
12-31-2017, 10:16
How about we try something new? Quit trying to control what law-abiding citizens can have/use and hold criminals accountable for their actions. Public hangings would be a good start point.
(Or maybe it isn't so new. The "wild west" was fairly civil by modern Chicago [or anywhere else Dims are in charge] standards.)
Badger52
12-31-2017, 12:46
How about we try something new? Quit trying to control what law-abiding citizens can have/use and hold criminals accountable for their actions. Public hangings would be a good start point.
(Or maybe it isn't so new. The "wild west" was fairly civil by modern Chicago [or anywhere else Dims are in charge] standards.)
Winner.
Old Dog New Trick
12-31-2017, 17:27
Most bump stock fans I've witnessed are grossly overweight cybergamers.
As for MG's, I've believed since '79 they should be limited to 3-round, aimed bursts.
That' how I used my pig. Did a lot more damage that way.
Funny you say that...I preferred my M2 in single shot. Even cupola mounted on a pintle I could wreak havoc on targets that would have wasted every bullet after the first one.
Funny you say that...I preferred my M2 in single shot. Even cupola mounted on a pintle I could wreak havoc on targets that would have wasted every bullet after the first one.
:D
rsdengler
01-01-2018, 06:35
How about we try something new? Quit trying to control what law-abiding citizens can have/use and hold criminals accountable for their actions. Public hangings would be a good start point.
(Or maybe it isn't so new. The "wild west" was fairly civil by modern Chicago [or anywhere else Dims are in charge] standards.)
LOL....I'll bring the Popcorn........:munchin
Totally agree, one of our biggest problems is that the law is way too lenient on criminals... We need to start holding them accountable and applying stiff sentences to unlawful scumbags who ride the shirt tails of lawyers. Law-Abiding Americans are being penalized for the failure of the criminal justice system, while ass clown offenders/felons run wild and avoid the consequences. :confused::confused:
Funny you say that...I preferred my M2 in single shot. Even cupola mounted on a pintle I could wreak havoc on targets that would have wasted every bullet after the first one.
Worked for Carlos out to a couple thousand yards...with a Unertl