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Paradude54
10-19-2017, 08:03
I’m a QP but went through SFQC a long time ago and was medically discharged in 1993, so I’m seriously out of the loop now. So hopefully I’m not too far off base asking this one here.

In a comment on military dot com someone posted that everyone wearing the long tab was an E-6 or higher. That sounds odd to me so I thought that I’d ask it here. At the point when a candidate graduates SFQC are they promoted to a certain pay grade? What is the lowest rank that someone can be at the point in their career that they’re awarded the long tab?

glebo
10-19-2017, 09:00
Well, MTOE for an ODA is E6 is the lowest rank.

Active duty Army going through the Q course, rank can vary, from E5 through E7.

18Xrays, generally start OSUT as an E1 - E3. They may make up to #4 in the course though, maybe even E5.

Yes, the Q course is absurdly to long now.

JimP
10-19-2017, 09:41
I was an E-3 (might even have been an E-2) when I graduated. Can't remember as I'm too damned old...too damned tired and don't GAF. I was also a knucklehead and probably didn't have any business around the guys for a couple of years until I matured.... (some would say I still need to mature).

Old Dog New Trick
10-19-2017, 10:17
In '88-'89 a lot of us were E-5/6 and some E-4Ps but everyone either showed up to graduation as an E-6 or E-5 after MOS changes and language course.

I did have a few E-5s under me on teams during the '90s but we got everyone promoted to E-6 pretty quickly.

I retired before they brought back the X-Ray program so never saw someone below E-5 on a team and not for long.

7624U
10-19-2017, 10:38
X-rays are E-3 and E-4 going to Sage but by graduation after language they all show up to Group as E-5's. this has been the trend for the last few years.

Team Sergeant
10-19-2017, 13:19
I was an E-4 upon SFQC graduation. Was promoted to E-5 the same time I arrived to a Special Forces company / A-Team.

So if the Long Tab were out then I'd been wearing it at E-4.

Paradude54
10-19-2017, 16:07
Thanks, that makes sense. I graduated in Dec 1989 and we had some E-4s in the Q Course but I don’t recall ever seeing any on the Teams.

I was seeing some responses to a recent story on military dot com that weren’t making sense in terms of rank so I thought that I’d get the latest information before I said anything.

The weirdest one was that anyone that graduated SFQC below E-6 stayed in support until they made E-6 which made no sense at all to me.

Joker
10-19-2017, 21:42
Started as an E1 and graduated and signed into A-1/7 as an E2. :p

Paradude54
10-20-2017, 09:13
Started as an E1 and graduated and signed into A-1/7 as an E2. :p

What year did you graduate?

Joker
10-20-2017, 10:35
What year did you graduate?

March '83.

cedsall
10-20-2017, 15:28
March '83.

I remember this. At the monthly Group readiness discussions (I was the Asst Ops SGT for the MI Co, 5th). The early 80's were one of the times Army was offering an SF enlistment/bonus option. Lots of PV2/PFC coming into the groups and had to be assigned to SFODAs to fulfill the terms of the enlistment bonus.

The discussion that happened just about every month was that the group was having to declare older, more experienced NCOs as excess because they had to put the bonus recipients in the MTOE positions.

Pete
10-20-2017, 16:21
....The discussion that happened just about every month was that the group was having to declare older, more experienced NCOs as excess because they had to put the bonus recipients in the MTOE positions.

By 83 there were very few old timers in the line companies of 5th Group.

Sure, there were some old Team Sergeants around but lots of teams had an older Team Sergeant, a couple of junior SFC's and then a bunch of SSGs and SGTs. Most E-4s were promoted shortly after getting to group. We deployed a full 12 man team in 85. Enlisted were 4 SFCs, 3 SSGs, 2 SGTs and a SP4.

Late 70s and early 80s lots of senior Medics, Commo and Engineers went off to leg land to be 1SGs when they came out on the 8 list. If they were lucky and made SGM they might get back and get a company. If not they retired.

Nov 1974 two thirds of our class made PFC on graduation day - I was one of them and reported to 5th Group that afternoon.

I've seen plenty of times a ghost SD somewhere holding down a slot that couldn't be filled. I did have an advantage being on a dive team when dive pay came out. Those slots got filled with divers or we moved them on.

Joker
10-20-2017, 22:04
By 83 there were very few old timers in the line companies of 5th Group.

The same in 1/7th. Most of the Team SGTs were SFCs. When I left in '86 to go to Panama they were full or almost full with MSGs.

I had a couple of good SFC Team SGTs but when they made MSG they were outstanding.

TrapperFrank
10-21-2017, 00:34
I was a PFC/E3, REP 63 in the MSARNG when I signed into the Q Course in March 1980. Made SP4/E4 in April of that year and graduated the Q as an SP4.

Paradude54
10-22-2017, 09:16
On a somewhat different note, has anyone ever heard of the Q Course being referred to as “A School”? I heard that one the other day and don’t know if it was something really old, pretty new or the guy was full of shit. It was an online comment, so I couldn’t Judge by his age.

JJ_BPK
10-22-2017, 09:53
On a somewhat different note, has anyone ever heard of the Q Course being referred to as “A School”? I heard that one the other day and don’t know if it was something really old, pretty new or the guy was full of shit. It was an online comment, so I couldn’t Judge by his age.

In the 60t's and I think into the mid 70t's, JFK-IMA offered a correspondence course. I took it while in C 6th SFG, as the S4. If I remember It took me about 2 months for all the section, after work and weekends, between parties.

Additionally,, the Q was run at-by "The School House", so I suspect "school" was used in context?

:munchin

Pete
10-22-2017, 10:20
"A School" - I think the only time I heard that phrase was when a Navy type was talking about some school after boot camp.

Just assumed it referred to an advanced school to get a rating. As to what rating ain't got a clue.

SF_BHT
10-22-2017, 18:06
On a somewhat different note, has anyone ever heard of the Q Course being referred to as “A School”? I heard that one the other day and don’t know if it was something really old, pretty new or the guy was full of shit. It was an online comment, so I couldn’t Judge by his age.

Navy folk use that term and I think the AF also does. Never heard anyone in the army refer to AIT as A School......

cedsall
10-24-2017, 15:45
By 83 there were very few old timers in the line companies of 5th Group.

Sure, there were some old Team Sergeants around but lots of teams had an older Team Sergeant, a couple of junior SFC's and then a bunch of SSGs and SGTs. Most E-4s were promoted shortly after getting to group. We deployed a full 12 man team in 85. Enlisted were 4 SFCs, 3 SSGs, 2 SGTs and a SP4.

Late 70s and early 80s lots of senior Medics, Commo and Engineers went off to leg land to be 1SGs when they came out on the 8 list. If they were lucky and made SGM they might get back and get a company. If not they retired.

Nov 1974 two thirds of our class made PFC on graduation day - I was one of them and reported to 5th Group that afternoon.

I've seen plenty of times a ghost SD somewhere holding down a slot that couldn't be filled. I did have an advantage being on a dive team when dive pay came out. Those slots got filled with divers or we moved them on.
We had a similar issue in the SODs. There were two types of folks in the detachments - SFC/MSG with master wings and CIBs, and buck Sergeants with novice wings. The senior guys had spent their entire careers moving from one SOD to another.

MI Branch would leave them alone until they made E8. When that happened they became fair game for a 1SG job somewhere else. Not many of them made it back into the SODs after that. Each det had 2 MSG and a SGM position so there wasn't much room. While I was there they combined the SOD with the Group MI Det so the senior slots got even thinner after that.

spottedmedic111
11-01-2017, 15:47
Graduated in '93 and was told all graduates are automatically promoted to E-5 if not already an NCO. I was an E-4, never went to an E-5 board, and was invited to my E-6 board one morning while in language school in my PTs to confirm my name.

LMD
11-01-2017, 17:07
There’s a current memorandum that states any E5 with 42 months time in service and six months time in grade receives an automatic promotion to E6 Applicable to all 18-series and I believe 37 and or 35 series.

For FNGs like myself, I was 18X but met the requirement due to length of the 18D course and was promoted first of the next month after grad about 10 days later as was the same for a few other X-ray 18Ds I know that didn’t go straight through.

cat in the hat
11-02-2017, 10:16
Graduated in '93 and was told all graduates are automatically promoted to E-5 if not already an NCO. I was an E-4, never went to an E-5 board, and was invited to my E-6 board one morning while in language school in my PTs to confirm my name.

I remember when you made six and a certain cocky 18B was pissed that you out ranked him

spottedmedic111
11-02-2017, 11:47
I remember when you made six and a certain cocky 18B was pissed that you out ranked him


I forgot about Jim. He and I didn't get along during Sage either. Wonder what happened after he was kicked off island? Anyway, as a 18B he went to selection while I was already in the Q so no sympathy on that count. I also seem to remember 18D E-6 points were always minimum, not the case with B and C at the time. Remember my E6 party? Fastest drunk I ever had, though I remember Sssteve took all the spare booze home.

Oh yea, forgot to apologize again for the boxer's fracture "incident". I'd never seen one and wanted to rule out a dislocation. I know it hurt but you took my attempts to reduce it like a man so kudos!

cat in the hat
11-02-2017, 17:16
I forgot about Jim. He and I didn't get along during Sage either. Wonder what happened after he was kicked off island? Anyway, as a 18B he went to selection while I was already in the Q so no sympathy on that count. I also seem to remember 18D E-6 points were always minimum, not the case with B and C at the time. Remember my E6 party? Fastest drunk I ever had, though I remember Sssteve took all the spare booze home.

Oh yea, forgot to apologize again for the boxer's fracture "incident". I'd never seen one and wanted to rule out a dislocation. I know it hurt but you took my attempts to reduce it like a man so kudos!

Good times. Brother.
Certainly wasn't my last broken knuckle.

Premsore
11-03-2017, 09:05
By 83 there were very few old timers in the line companies of 5th Group.

Sure, there were some old Team Sergeants around but lots of teams had an older Team Sergeant, a couple of junior SFC's and then a bunch of SSGs and SGTs. Most E-4s were promoted shortly after getting to group. We deployed a full 12 man team in 85. Enlisted were 4 SFCs, 3 SSGs, 2 SGTs and a SP4.

Late 70s and early 80s lots of senior Medics, Commo and Engineers went off to leg land to be 1SGs when they came out on the 8 list. If they were lucky and made SGM they might get back and get a company. If not they retired.

Nov 1974 two thirds of our class made PFC on graduation day - I was one of them and reported to 5th Group that afternoon.

I've seen plenty of times a ghost SD somewhere holding down a slot that couldn't be filled. I did have an advantage being on a dive team when dive pay came out. Those slots got filled with divers or we moved them on.

In 1970, SF started the practice of automatically promoting to E-5 upon graduation. Problem was, us guys who had graduated in the previous few months weren't grandfathered in, so there were a bunch of pissed off E-4's for about a year since there were no E-5 slots opening up now.
So Pete, it sounds like between 70 and 74, SF changed again? Wow.

Chucko
11-04-2017, 19:00
In 1970, SF started the practice of automatically promoting to E-5 upon graduation. Problem was, us guys who had graduated in the previous few months weren't grandfathered in, so there were a bunch of pissed off E-4's for about a year since there were no E-5 slots opening up now.
So Pete, it sounds like between 70 and 74, SF changed again? Wow.

I graduated in 1970 just in the nick of time to get an E-5 promotion. I thought, "Damn, that was quick and easy.":munchin

Team Sergeant
11-05-2017, 09:11
In 1970, SF started the practice of automatically promoting to E-5 upon graduation. Problem was, us guys who had graduated in the previous few months weren't grandfathered in, so there were a bunch of pissed off E-4's for about a year since there were no E-5 slots opening up now.
So Pete, it sounds like between 70 and 74, SF changed again? Wow.

My promotion to E-5 was not automatic upon SFQC graduation in 1983. I went to a promotion board of all SF SGM's in between phase one and phase two.

Never forget when one of them asked me to find the terrain feature located at xy-xy on the map. I said there is a body of water there, next question was, "How deep it that lake? asked the SGM with a deadpan face. I smiled and replied, "I don't have a clue SGM." He almost started laughing out loud.

Combat Diver
11-05-2017, 10:58
I was on a SF contract after enlisting in 83'. Came in as a PFC due to 4 yrs JROTC and got my Spec4 while recovering from a broken leg jumping into Robin Sage. Got CPL few months later and then went to the E5 board few months after I got to group. Turned 20 yrs old while in pre SCUBA and pinned SGT on after getting back from Key West.

CD

Astronomy
11-05-2017, 15:44
At SFQC in 1980, I remember a few E3(P) & E4(P) students in my class. Mostly from Reserve or Guard Groups. IIRC, the procedure back then was to automatically promote to the next rank as soon as Army minimums were met (Time in Service, Time in Grade). They started retroactively pencil whipping SFQC credit for PLDC/BNCOC completion back in the mid-1980s (or whatever the Army called those courses back then). I never attended a formal away NCO course until SF ANCOC. Ranger School & SFQC covered the earlier levels back at that time.

I arrived at my first ODA as an E-5 (but I had already made that rank at 2/75). Slotted into an E-7 Heavy (Sr) Weapons slot. Went to E6 board just as soon as I was eligible. Got promoted the next month.

I was actually thrown out of my 1-10 SFG(A) E-6 Board by newly arrived CSM Arthur Garcia. He had arrive the night before and decided to use the next morning's Monthly NCO Board as an example of his...style. As the only E-5 up for E-6 that month, I was first in the bucket. Entered the room, pirouetted through a couple of facing movements, and had my ass scorched for supposed uniform deficiencies. Back out in the hallway after less than a minute...with my tail feathers smoking. Which worried all of the E-4s sitting out there greatly. Because I actually looked pretty sharp in my Greens. Better than them. LOL.

After some kind of internal E9 voodoo discussion, I got called back in by my Company SGM and reported to the President of the Board a second time. Max points awarded and no further drama.

I never actually encountered a live E-4 on an AD ODA. The lowest rank I ever saw assigned was E-5. 1980-2012.

As a Company SGM circa 2009/2010, every newly assigned SFQC grad I received was at least an E5. Most of them were combat experienced E5/E6 NCOs from previous conventional assignments. A few cherry E-5 X-Rays.

Last hard class
11-06-2017, 20:56
I never actually encountered a live E-4 on an AD ODA. The lowest rank I ever saw assigned was E-5. 1980-2012.



Well, we used to pin the rank on before the actual promotion. So there were some E-4's on our teams.



LHC

Astronomy
11-07-2017, 10:06
Probably. My first SF assignment was to 1-10 and, at the time I arrived (1980), they hadn't seen a live SF E-5 in quite awhile. So long that I got treated like a new puppy found under a Christmas tree. Had an E-4 "S" qualified guy showed up, they'd have probably taken turns feeding him. :p

At that time, 1-10 teams were full of senior guys. Teams chock full of deeply experienced Vietnam era SF E-7s. Guys from all the Groups. Guys who knew how to schmooze choice assignment to Bavaria through Mrs. Palmer. ;)

Meanwhile, most of my graduating SFQC class were filling billets at Bragg. With the exception of myself and another E-5 who went down to Panama, every junior Ranger tabbed NCO in my class went straight to SWC after graduation. Drafted as cadre instructors before they ever saw their first ODA. If you had just come from a Ranger Batt or other Airborne Infantry unit, you went to Phase I or Phase II. Even if you were only an E-5. The schoolhouse cadre bench at that time was not very deep.

That was 1980. Three AD Groups. SF was short of experienced mid grade NCOs on teams and enjoyed little support or patronage from DA. The late 70's were a time of existential crisis for Army Special Forces. There were powers on-high that wanted the organization to disappear forever.

Half the folks you'd meet in the Army were absolutely sure that SF had been disbanded after Vietnam. Or didn't know that we existed.

During the early Reagan Era, that began to change, and lots of newly minted E-5s & E-6s started getting pumped onto teams. Especially as we became our own branch & filled the new Groups (1st & 3rd).

Joker
11-07-2017, 20:41
Well, we used to pin the rank on before the actual promotion. So there were some E-4's on our teams.



LHC

In A-1/7 we had a bunch. I wore mosquito wings on a team. :D

mojaveman
11-07-2017, 21:17
I was an E-4 upon SFQC graduation.


Did you have a break in service after your first enlistment? Just curious.

Team Sergeant
11-12-2017, 12:03
Did you have a break in service after your first enlistment? Just curious.

Yes I did. Spent three years in the 1-505 ABN INF, got out for two years and came back in. After a two year break was in Phase One less than three days after arriving on Ft. Bragg.

Jan, 1983, I re-enlisted.
SFQC SGM told me that I'd be in the "next class" that I think started in Feb or March, 1983. He told me I'd be in PT for the next month to get ready. I told him I could do 200 push-ups, 200 sit-ups and then run a sub five minute mile. I was ready. He smiled and said "If you can in process in 3 days I will get you into the next class."

After a two year break I was in Phase One three days later. ;) (Easily proven by my records.)

SF_BHT
11-12-2017, 12:43
Yes I did. Spent three years in the 1-505 ABN INF, got out for two years and came back in. After a two year break was in Phase One less than three days after arriving on Ft. Bragg.

Jan, 1983, I re-enlisted.
SFQC SGM told me that I'd be in the "next class" that I think started in Feb or March, 1983. He told me I'd be in PT for the next month to get ready. I told him I could do 200 push-ups, 200 sit-ups and then run a sub five minute mile. I was ready. He smiled and said "If you can in process in 3 days I will get you into the next class."

After a two year break I was in Phase One three days later. ;) (Easily proven by my records.)

Such a show off:eek:;):D

People that were set on what they wanted and prepared succeed.
Wonder how these new troops would do without people feeding every step of the process to them.

Good job TS. You knew what you wanted and were ready to learn what they taught.

Scimitar
11-12-2017, 15:07
Yes I did. Spent three years in the 1-505 ABN INF, got out for two years and came back in. After a two year break was in Phase One less than three days after arriving on Ft. Bragg.

Jan, 1983, I re-enlisted.
SFQC SGM told me that I'd be in the "next class" that I think started in Feb or March, 1983. He told me I'd be in PT for the next month to get ready. I told him I could do 200 push-ups, 200 sit-ups and then run a sub five minute mile. I was ready. He smiled and said "If you can in process in 3 days I will get you into the next class."

After a two year break I was in Phase One three days later. ;) (Easily proven by my records.)

I always meant to ask TS, what did you get up to on your 2 year sabbatical?

S

Team Sergeant
11-12-2017, 15:47
I cut steel in a factory, worked out, ran, dated women, ran some more, dated more, kick-boxed and ran even more. Trained with the city SWAT team for fun and taught them advanced rifle marksmanship. (I was already a SF trained sniper.) Used to go on ride-alongs’ all the time with the SWAT SGT.

Pissed off the union where I worked by not joining and busting the union required work quota’s. If the union said you could only cut twenty-five pieces an hour, I’d cut forty-five pieces an hour. Did that every day. Had my work checked once a week by a union idiot to ensure I was not cutting corners or doing crappy work.
Seriously pissed them off to the point they threatened me, big mistake. ;)

Was a very amusing time. Made great money but work sucked. Wanted to be back outside. Also missed the camaraderie of the infantry. The only “friends” I had working at the factory were the vets. They all said they wished they could do it again, go back into the military but all had families to support and made great money doing factory work.

I then met a former Special Forces soldier and had a long chat with him. Made up my mind right there I was going back in…… actually had to cross state lines to find a recruiter that had not filled his quota for prior service recruits…… signed up and the rest was history.

Scimitar
11-12-2017, 20:29
I'd say it sounds like you had as much fun out of the Army as you did in, but we all know that isn't close to accurate. ;)

Thanks for sharing TS.

S

Chucko
11-13-2017, 18:26
Pissed off the union where I worked by not joining and busting the union required work quota’s. If the union said you could only cut twenty-five pieces an hour, I’d cut forty-five pieces an hour. Did that every day. Had my work checked once a week by a union idiot to ensure I was not cutting corners or doing crappy work.
Seriously pissed them off to the point they threatened me, big mistake. ;)
.

Hmmm. Don't like to play with others. Check :D

Noah Werka
11-13-2017, 19:40
In 1970, SF started the practice of automatically promoting to E-5 upon graduation. Problem was, us guys who had graduated in the previous few months weren't grandfathered in, so there were a bunch of pissed off E-4's for about a year since there were no E-5 slots opening up now.
So Pete, it sounds like between 70 and 74, SF changed again? Wow.

I was graduated in August of '69 as an Spec. E-4(Commo). Starting with the very next class(Sept.?, Oct.?), all SFQC grads were automatically promoted to E-5. I was one of those pissed off E-4's. They realized the error of their ways ~a year later, and there were a whole bunch of E-4's promoted at the same time. All our promotion orders were backdated to the date of our SFQC graduation. No back pay though.

Noah W

Chucko
12-05-2017, 18:11
I’m a QP but went through SFQC a long time ago and was medically discharged in 1993, so I’m seriously out of the loop now. So hopefully I’m not too far off base asking this one here.

In a comment on military dot com someone posted that everyone wearing the long tab was an E-6 or higher. That sounds odd to me so I thought that I’d ask it here. At the point when a candidate graduates SFQC are they promoted to a certain pay grade? What is the lowest rank that someone can be at the point in their career that they’re awarded the long tab?

What in the world is a "long tab?" When is it awarded?

I read it on many posts and is something I should know, but I don't. Inquiring minds want to know.

JJ_BPK
12-05-2017, 18:40
What in the world is a "long tab?"

Kapish?? :munchin

Joker
12-05-2017, 19:05
Now Chucko, do push-ups... ;)

Chucko
12-05-2017, 21:06
Kapish?? :munchin

Now Chucko, do push-ups... ;)

That's a big 10-4. Thanks. I never heard that until on this site but is worth a hundred pushups....maybe tomorrow.