View Full Version : Triple Canopy, Hiring Guards in Iraq Who Couldn't Shoot
Not good for business.. :munchin
Firm Pays $2.6M After Hiring Guards in Iraq Who Couldn't Shoot
Stars and Stripes | 18 Oct 2017 | by Chad Garland
A security firm accused of billing the Defense Department millions of dollars for guards at a U.S. air base in Iraq has agreed to pay $2.6 million in a settlement with the government, after allegations that the guards couldn't shoot easy targets.
Triple Canopy, a Virginia-based security contractor, agreed Monday to settle allegations that the company submitted false claims for payment to the Defense Department for unqualified security guards at Al Asad Airbase, the second-largest air base in Iraq, in 2009 and 2010.
Triple Canopy admitted no wrongdoing as part of the settlement.
The settlement stems from a whistleblower suit accusing the company of violating the False Claims Act when it billed DoD for the guards, who were hired to protect U.S. and allied personnel but who could not pass an Army firearms proficiency test.
The company provided the guards under a one-year contract for perimeter security at Al Asad that began in 2009. It billed the government more than $10.4 million under that contract, of which more than $4.35 million was for the guards.
"Contractors must be held accountable for their actions," said Dana J. Boente, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, where the suit was filed, in a statement. "This settlement should remind contractors of the high value we place on safeguarding our personnel abroad."
The suit alleged that Triple Canopy officials created false test score cards it was required to keep for government review to conceal the guards' inability to pass the contractually required tests.
The government's claims were based on a suit filed by a former Triple Canopy employee -- Omar Badr, a medic and Army veteran -- in 2011. The False Claims Act allows private citizens to file suit on behalf of the government. The government may then investigate the claims and choose to intervene in the suit.
Not one of the initial 300 Ugandan guards could pass the firearms proficiency tests, nor could several replacement guards, claimed Badr, who served with the Rangers until 2007 and joined Triple Canopy around February 2008.
To qualify on the firearms tests, given at a 27-yard distance but using paper printed with targets simulating distances from 50 to 300 yards, the guards had to score hits with 23 of 40 rounds fired. The test also involved changing magazines on the weapon -- an AK-47 style assault rifle chambered for 5.56 mm ammunition.
The first group of guards who were supposed to have qualified on the course in Uganda could not load or unload their weapons when they were taken to a range in Iraq to zero their weapons a few weeks later in June 2009, the suit alleged. Most could hit the paper but not the printed targets, Badr claimed.
The suit alleged that when the Al Asad contract was awarded to another firm in 2010, Triple Canopy relocated the unqualified guards to other bases.
Triple Canopy officials instructed American personnel to falsify score cards to give male guards scores in the 30-31 range and female guards scores in the 24-26 range, the complaint stated.
The government intervened in Badr's suit in 2012. Assistant U.S. attorneys Richard Sponseller and Christine Roushdy investigated, along with the Defense Criminal Investigative Service and Army Criminal Investigation Command.
Triple Canopy denied that the guards were unqualified or that its employees falsified their scores. The company later agreed to settle the civil claims, which was not a determination of civil liability.
Under the terms of the False Claims Act, Badr will receive a share of the recovery -- about $500,000.
Triple Canopy is facing a separate whistleblower suit, also filed under the False Claims Act, which alleges it failed to properly inspect weapons it provided as part of a contract for its teams protecting personnel from the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.
That suit, which the government did not join after it was filed by a former employee last year, alleges company officials falsified inspection procedures and records and then fired the employee who brought the problems to company officials' attention. The government may choose to join the suit at a later date.
Founded in 2003 by veteran U.S. Army Special Forces and Delta operators, Triple Canopy contracted with U.S. government agencies to provide security services overseas. The company merged with Academi, formerly Blackwater, to form its parent company Constellis Group in 2014.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/10/18/firm-pays-2-6m-after-hiring-guards-in-iraq-who-couldnt-shoot.html?ESRC=eb_171019.nl
Sounds like the 25 meter alternate qualification target the Army has been using for a long time.
Easy - If your weapon is properly zeroed.
From reading the article it appears they were almost handed the weapons before shooting.
"...an AK-47 style assault rifle chambered for 5.56 mm ammunition...." Now most of the guys here understand the question I'm going to ask - you others will need to look it up. We know why this target is set at 25 meters for the M16 series. Does this "AK-47 style assault rifle" have the same sight picture and bullet trajectory as the M16 family? I would assume yes as it's 5.56 mm.
Wait just a gosh darned moment...
Am I to believe that we are working under the assumption that our partnered forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are not able to shoot to US marksmanship standards using their issued AK's?
If these are AK variants chambered to shoot NATO spec 5.56 then shooting an Alt-C Qualification target wont have any impact on the score. I am not familiar with the ballistics trajectory of the 5.45 so if these are standard AK rifles chambered in 5.45 then there might be a small difference but not so much that you cant hit at least 23 out of 40.
Triple Canopy must have fucked someone over that was just sitting back waiting for a chance to stick it to them. You could barely fill the back seat of a VW Beetle with the amount of 3rd world troops that could shoot their issued AK-47 to US standards and pretty much EVERYBODY knows it.
Wait just a gosh darned moment...
Am I to believe that we are working under the assumption that our partnered forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are not able to shoot to US marksmanship standards using their issued AK's?
If these are AK variants chambered to shoot NATO spec 5.56 then shooting an Alt-C Qualification target wont have any impact on the score.
Polish Arms company FB Beryl has been making an AK variant in 5.56x45 for 20 years..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FB_Beryl
Atlantic Firearms is one of several US distributors
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-accessories/polish-beryl-archer-5-56x45-magazine-2-pack-detail.html?Itemid=0
One improvement was the development of a rail system that fits over the dust cover, allowing modern optics..
frostfire
10-19-2017, 09:34
Sounds like the 25 meter alternate qualification target the Army has been using for a long time.
Easy - If your weapon is properly zeroed.
From reading the article it appears they were almost handed the weapons before shooting.
"...an AK-47 style assault rifle chambered for 5.56 mm ammunition...." Now most of the guys here understand the question I'm going to ask - you others will need to look it up. We know why this target is set at 25 meters for the M16 series. Does this "AK-47 style assault rifle" have the same sight picture and bullet trajectory as the M16 family? I would assume yes as it's 5.56 mm.
Hmmm, ak variant but 5.56? Serbians or the Israeli’s galil series?
Not sure w trajectory depending on the barrel length, twist and ultimately muzzle velocity but sight pic should be the same for a zeroed rifle.
But with that itty bitty sight radius, the alt c at 25 may not be a walk in the park esp w kneeling stage and ak ergonomics
However, any competent rifleman would have adjust poa/poi with as little as 3 rounds to hit the rest. So yes, 23 should be more than doable
Oh, I highly doubt our standard force protection troops can do better w the same equipment
WarriorDiplomat
10-19-2017, 11:07
Sounds like the 25 meter alternate qualification target the Army has been using for a long time.
Easy - If your weapon is properly zeroed.
From reading the article it appears they were almost handed the weapons before shooting.
"...an AK-47 style assault rifle chambered for 5.56 mm ammunition...." Now most of the guys here understand the question I'm going to ask - you others will need to look it up. We know why this target is set at 25 meters for the M16 series. Does this "AK-47 style assault rifle" have the same sight picture and bullet trajectory as the M16 family? I would assume yes as it's 5.56 mm.
I smell an opportunity for a squared away Green Beret to fix this to save the contract.....it was once about a time the bread and butter of a good 18B
As far as the trajectory of the chambered round for this set up I am curious to know how it differs
Weight, grain, rifling, barrel length, where the sight sets on the weapon compared to the front sight post all factor in not the mention the shooter being training on how a weapon shoots or what a 50/300 zero means
Did anyone eye test them to check if they could even see? You never see them in glasses aye....everyone had perfect vision lol.
Team Sergeant
10-19-2017, 12:23
Blackwater 2.0
Nothing to see here, money is the prime directive.
And if not shooting straight was a crime then erik princess would be in jail for the murder of 17.
I smell an opportunity for a squared away Green Beret to fix this to save the contract.....it was once about a time the bread and butter of a good 18B
As far as the trajectory of the chambered round for this set up I am curious to know how it differs
Weight, grain, rifling, barrel length, where the sight sets on the weapon compared to the front sight post all factor in not the mention the shooter being training on how a weapon shoots or what a 50/300 zero means
There have been 18Bs on those quals for quite a few years. While I wasn’t there for the incident in question, I have worked with the Ugandans quite a bit. Their memory is about as long as their hair. You can teach them the same basic task every day for a week and they still won’t remember it the next day. Them not knowing how to zero a weapon is not a good indicator of whether or not documents were falsified. Not to mention that the Ugandans don’t usually make any sight corrections themselves. Instructors do that for them as basic math for sight adjustments is way beyond their comprehension
WarriorDiplomat
10-20-2017, 16:43
There have been 18Bs on those quals for quite a few years. While I wasn’t there for the incident in question, I have worked with the Ugandans quite a bit. Their memory is about as long as their hair. You can teach them the same basic task every day for a week and they still won’t remember it the next day. Them not knowing how to zero a weapon is not a good indicator of whether or not documents were falsified. Not to mention that the Ugandans don’t usually make any sight corrections themselves. Instructors do that for them as basic math for sight adjustments is way beyond their comprehension
I have worked with many Ugandans before and can't say I have had that issue we have been training their forces for years in Uganda hunting the LRA.....the point is not whether or not they falsified documents or whether the Ugandans can shoot it is the fact that the company would follow through providing security with low quality security knowing they have falsified docs to meet requirements....because a guy was an 18B and now is a soldier for profit doesn't mean they was a good one I have seen PFC's who had a better grasp of teaching across cultural differences than some 18B's.
WarriorDiplomat
10-20-2017, 16:55
Did anyone eye test them to check if they could even see? You never see them in glasses aye....everyone had perfect vision lol.
Thats a good question one thing I have found from this generation is really good instructors are rare so rare the SWTG has changed its instruction philosophy IOT avoid another embarrassment like the team in Afghanistan cadre are to be examples of how we teach so another SSG is NOT using profanity and humiliation to correct foreign soldiers on NATGEO....teaching foreign armies is an art...knowing your target audience is paramount to success
Relationship is as critical to trust more so than technical expertise
How is their vision
Shooter experience
left eye/right eye dominance?
left or right handed shooters
weapon quality
Always shoot the weapon your self to verify the weapon if the shooter is struggling(is it the shooter or the weapon?)
The 8 fundamentals
dime and washer drills
Sometimes religious beliefs such as the West African "Gods Will" the black snake belts etc.....are a factor you have to navigate and overcome....
Cross cultural communication and learning styles
Shooting guns are priority no smoke sessions or fitness for relative beginners these aren't well fed Americans who grew up watching war movies, hunting or playing aggressive sports
Demonstration (BE,KNOW,DO)
The key is patience and mental stamina and a deep knowledge of techniques....once trained as a trainer/adviser its time to hunt bad guys this should motivate every one in the train advise mission.
I can say that in nearly 16yrs as a GB I have never met a man/woman I cannot figure out how to effectively train.....I have never not yet been able to get to the train the trainer force multiplication phase
There are a lot of AK's in 5.56
It has been a trend for some time. No idea what "AK style assault weapon" is.
Kalashnikov Concern EXPORT AK102:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-102
Arsenal Bulgaria makes a lot of export weapons in 5.56 we have most of them here in he US:
http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/5.56_NATO/
MOLOT Vepr (Really high quality guns, RPK receivers):
http://www.k-var.com/shop/Vepr-rifles
Norinco 5.56 AKs Type 56-4 (Worth a lot on GB):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_56_assault_rifle
I own a few of the Arsenal Weapons. They work pretty good. Not tack drivers, but general combat weapons. Really depends on ammo.
I highly doubt 25 meter simulated would be difficult with any of them. Setting the sights correctly requires someone that knows what they are doing. Also depends on how new the weapon is as I have dealt with front sight drift before.
Would be interesting to see what they bought.
I have worked with many Ugandans before and can't say I have had that issue we have been training their forces for years in Uganda hunting the LRA.....the point is not whether or not they falsified documents or whether the Ugandans can shoot it is the fact that the company would follow through providing security with low quality security knowing they have falsified docs to meet requirements....because a guy was an 18B and now is a soldier for profit doesn't mean they was a good one I have seen PFC's who had a better grasp of teaching across cultural differences than some 18B's.
The Ugandans are still there and used on several contracts and all are approved by the clients. Given the time constraints for training, who knows what happened. TC didn’t admit to falsifying scores nor were they given a Loss or Confidence from the client. Basically they paid 2.6 mil to make it go away. Given that Constellis runs TC now it was solely a business decision.
Just because an 18 works with a contracting company doesn’t automatically make them a shit bag either. Lots and lots of retirees there who just want to keep training people. I agree there’s good and bad in every arena.
WarriorDiplomat
10-20-2017, 19:33
The Ugandans are still there and used on several contracts and all are approved by the clients. Given the time constraints for training, who knows what happened. TC didn’t admit to falsifying scores nor were they given a Loss or Confidence from the client. Basically they paid 2.6 mil to make it go away. Given that Constellis runs TC now it was solely a business decision.
Just because an 18 works with a contracting company doesn’t automatically make them a shit bag either. Lots and lots of retirees there who just want to keep training people. I agree there’s good and bad in every arena.
Like I said being an 18 series does not mean he is going to be good at teaching.....I never alluded to being a soldier for profit means they are a shit bag......being as your profile says you were a 2/75 Ranger I am aware you don't know what the last 16 yrs have done to SF not being one......kinda curious how a non SF guy would know what a good SF guy is?...many of those skills(credentials) were gotten by guys who came in just for the credentials and then got out to contract.....I know some great GB's who are training indig as contractors but alot more that I would say just have the credentials for the purpose of profit....so again as I jokingly said in my original post it smells like an opportunity for an 18B and since this is a SF board that seemed an appropriate comment.
Like I said being an 18 series does not mean he is going to be good at teaching.....I never alluded to being a soldier for profit means they are a shit bag......being as your profile says you were a 2/75 Ranger I am aware you don't know what the last 16 yrs have done to SF not being one......kinda curious how a non SF guy would know what a good SF guy is?...many of those skills(credentials) were gotten by guys who came in just for the credentials and then got out to contract.....I know some great GB's who are training indig as contractors but alot more that I would say just have the credentials for the purpose of profit....so again as I jokingly said in my original post it smells like an opportunity for an 18B and since this is a SF board that seemed an appropriate comment.
So my opinions on SF are about as valid as yours on contractors since neither of us have any experience in those areas?
WarriorDiplomat
10-21-2017, 13:38
So my opinions on SF are about as valid as yours on contractors since neither of us have any experience in those areas?
Your opinions on SF are as valid as my opinions on Ranger Bn...brother I have been there and done that and lots of experience with contractors specifically TC I won't say how when and number of incidents I could provide a list of very good SF guys I know and trust who worked for these companies and said never again.......I have seen the biggest turds who had no desire to serve SF but wanted contract money who came in for the credentials who couldn't function as a Squad leader or a team leader 11B for that matter who benefited from the MG Parker grow SF at all costs era and ignore standards in fact I was an instructor then there was no fighting the promise made to congress that we could grow a 4th Bn in every group............since some of their antics put us in bad positions and gotten people killed and interfered with military operations with their actions I have no love lost with soldiers for profit....assholes standing on rooftops talking about shooting fish in a barrel is bad PR for the U.S. and civilians have no F'g idea the difference between contractor and military....Since you want to speak for all the contractors specifically the the former SF who have poisoned the SFQC community have all but destroyed the standards of the SF world by disabling the operators proficiency in instructing....why? because the golden parachute of contracting is the modern day gold rush....Anyone remember the 50 analysts who alerted CENTCOM to the contract debauchery that after investigation.....Gen Austin was relieved......As an instructor a majority of the NG SF component students made no bones that they were there for the credentials and the cool factor....hell some if these a-holes were upstart contract company owner who recruited from within.....Again wearing a GB and a long tab does not make them automatically good at what GB's are supposed to be good at.
IMO contractors are modern mercenaries working for the highest bidder...executive outcomes in the fighting on behalf of a legal government in order restore the government of Sierra Leone set a precendent that companies like Blackwater or whatever their latest name is academi?? has been lobbying to repeal. Only someone naive thinks its about loyalty to god and country......the only difference between contractors and mercenaries are the legal restraints in the contract that prevents them from fighting wars in which the only stake is the profit margin.....hence the Ugandans protecting U.S interest why Ugandans??? because they are the cheapest are they trainable? absolutely....War is big business hence War is a Racket by the legendary Smedley Butler and later President Eisenhower when he left office......the military industrial complex....wars for profit are in the best interest of a contract company.....You think all these Generals give a crap about any of this ending? not when they have jobs waiting for them that depend on the U.S war chest money from congress. As of right now there are at least 5 guys in my company who want the money and hope the wars keep going so they can get theirs and avoid real work of the 5 only 2 are really experienced solid guys who are wishy washy not wanting to profit from war but feel they have earned it want nothing to do with overseas debauchery the others ehh....
What I loved to watch was the contract shuffle shenanigan the companies like to do...when a company did not perform as needed or were too expensive or had a bad PR incident the contract would be rewarded to a "more reputable" company LOL but the only thing that would change is the name of the company and the uniforms the same people???no change LOL...yeah great americans they are selling their skills to grow government influence....we talk about freedom and the constitution but then pimp ourselves to increase the size of government because most it seems are scared to make it off momma DOD's tit and then operate conducting police type duties in our own homeland.
yeah great americans they are selling their skills to grow government influence....we talk about freedom and the constitution but then pimp ourselves to increase the size of government because most it seems are scared to make it off momma DOD's tit and then operate conducting police type duties in our own homeland.
Funny you say that I plan on selling Government surplus junk (lots of it) when I get out of the Army. Guess all that good SF training will go to waste.
WarriorDiplomat
10-21-2017, 18:36
Funny you say that I plan on selling Government surplus junk (lots of it) when I get out of the Army. Guess all that good SF training will go to waste.
I don't care either way after all if you aren't doing FID, UW type things to kill bad guys you ain't using your skills anyway
I just don't like when someone pisses down my back and tries to tell me it's raining.....we have known and seen enough in our careers
frostfire
10-22-2017, 11:58
Your opinions on SF are as valid as my opinions on Ranger Bn...brother I have been there and done that and lots of experience with contractors specifically TC I won't say how when and number of incidents I could provide a list of very good SF guys I know and trust who worked for these companies and said never again.......I have seen the biggest turds who had no desire to serve SF but wanted contract money who came in for the credentials who couldn't function as a Squad leader or a team leader 11B for that matter who benefited from the MG Parker grow SF at all costs era and ignore standards in fact I was an instructor then there was no fighting the promise made to congress that we could grow a 4th Bn in every group............since some of their antics put us in bad positions and gotten people killed and interfered with military operations with their actions I have no love lost with soldiers for profit....assholes standing on rooftops talking about shooting fish in a barrel is bad PR for the U.S. and civilians have no F'g idea the difference between contractor and military....Since you want to speak for all the contractors specifically the the former SF who have poisoned the SFQC community have all but destroyed the standards of the SF world by disabling the operators proficiency in instructing....why? because the golden parachute of contracting is the modern day gold rush....Anyone remember the 50 analysts who alerted CENTCOM to the contract debauchery that after investigation.....Gen Austin was relieved......As an instructor a majority of the NG SF component students made no bones that they were there for the credentials and the cool factor....hell some if these a-holes were upstart contract company owner who recruited from within.....Again wearing a GB and a long tab does not make them automatically good at what GB's are supposed to be good at.
IMO contractors are modern mercenaries working for the highest bidder...executive outcomes in the fighting on behalf of a legal government in order restore the government of Sierra Leone set a precendent that companies like Blackwater or whatever their latest name is academi?? has been lobbying to repeal. Only someone naive thinks its about loyalty to god and country......the only difference between contractors and mercenaries are the legal restraints in the contract that prevents them from fighting wars in which the only stake is the profit margin.....hence the Ugandans protecting U.S interest why Ugandans??? because they are the cheapest are they trainable? absolutely....War is big business hence War is a Racket by the legendary Smedley Butler and later President Eisenhower when he left office......the military industrial complex....wars for profit are in the best interest of a contract company.....You think all these Generals give a crap about any of this ending? not when they have jobs waiting for them that depend on the U.S war chest money from congress. As of right now there are at least 5 guys in my company who want the money and hope the wars keep going so they can get theirs and avoid real work of the 5 only 2 are really experienced solid guys who are wishy washy not wanting to profit from war but feel they have earned it want nothing to do with overseas debauchery the others ehh....
What I loved to watch was the contract shuffle shenanigan the companies like to do...when a company did not perform as needed or were too expensive or had a bad PR incident the contract would be rewarded to a "more reputable" company LOL but the only thing that would change is the name of the company and the uniforms the same people???no change LOL...yeah great americans they are selling their skills to grow government influence....we talk about freedom and the constitution but then pimp ourselves to increase the size of government because most it seems are scared to make it off momma DOD's tit and then operate conducting police type duties in our own homeland.
WarriorDiplomat,
along that same train of thought, have you seen the opposite i.e. non tabbed who runs train the trainer, FID or UW better?
..... have you seen the opposite i.e. non tabbed who runs train the trainer, FID or UW better?
The above areas you mentioned cover a lot of subjects. Just with train the trainer. Train the trainer to do what?
Most folks think FID is teaching soldiers from a different country to shoot, move and communicate but it is much, much more. It may be in a country without a maintenance contract with a large company for it's tracked vehicles. If it's US material the US may send a maintenance team from an Armor unit - or send SF folks to a maintenance course and then send them instead. Then there's logistics.
Big Army and the State Department has a big say in who goes and why.
Big Army assets may have the edge on knowledge of some technical subject's but can they transfer it?
The plus for SF is it's very rare to find a team where nobody has been overseas training troops. As a team most of the challenges are known. With Big Army what you get is what you get.
But to answer your question - some in the yes category, many in the no category.
your post
I get it. You don't like contractors based upon you experience with them and people wanting to move to that. I've seen that as well. I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise as its clear that would be a waste of time. I will however, encourage you to reasearch the many facets that contractors do rather than base an opinion off a small percentage of them.
My comment was regarding your quip about an 18B squaring them away. While it may have been in jest from you, it is very assumptive of what contractors do and who they are/capabilities. Since youre experience is very limitied with the contracting community, I was relating it to my experience with SF.
WarriorDiplomat
10-22-2017, 21:49
I get it. You don't like contractors based upon you experience with them and people wanting to move to that. I've seen that as well. I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise as its clear that would be a waste of time. I will however, encourage you to reasearch the many facets that contractors do rather than base an opinion off a small percentage of them.
My comment was regarding your quip about an 18B squaring them away. While it may have been in jest from you, it is very assumptive of what contractors do and who they are/capabilities. Since youre experience is very limitied with the contracting community, I was relating it to my experience with SF.
You seem to very assumptive to what a GB is how they work and what makes them good they may have become mercs but they were GB's who spent 12-24mos. training to be GB's......They are unlike 15 yrs ago everywhere within the Gov these days they teach everything everywhere and have as a result disabled our force of its most critical skill and that is the ability to train others...why?....because some greedy retired guy knows he can convince someone that we need their expertise not thinking that once upon a time he was a young GB doing what a GB does to succeed and that is figure it out and train everyone else....initiative to solve dilemmas is a foundation of why the GB is valued....you see a GB is not just your run of the mill soldier he is supposed to be capable of training and force multiplying an indigenous force and fight by through, by and with them.......much more than cannot be talked about in the open.....not sure you realize how many their are that service a group with their bullshit training it is as I said before the new gold rush....for a non SF tabber who happens to be pro contract you seem to think you know how often we deal with these a-holes and how many of these parasites working state dept contracts we see making money hand over fist and killing much of our progress....no you are not going to persuade me otherwise no more than any of my SF brothers who would have someone believe they are doing a service filling a need in fact I don't know one that won't admit otherwise. Do you have any idea how many of these turds start networking within the regiment of guys who are retiring throwing jobs at them yes me as well only the dishonest ones try to sell it like amway but they all talk about the easy money. Roleplaying in schools, fielding new equipment as if we need another sniper rifle or optic that collects dust in the arms room, pulling PSD, 18E doing commo gigs, 18D Med gigs, why do you think people like us are recruited so heavily by companies like crane and others. War is a racket and there are shameless disloyal people who never want the GWOT to end and could care less if our children have to go die on foreign soil as long as the contract money train keeps rolling. I don't suppose you believe every intel report is honest as well and not just feeding themselves or someone elses career??I would rather do honest work and since I am almost done I will never again have anything to do with the DOD.
WarriorDiplomat
10-22-2017, 21:52
WarriorDiplomat,
along that same train of thought, have you seen the opposite i.e. non tabbed who runs train the trainer, FID or UW better?
As Pete said the training and cross cultural communication piece absolutely however the FID, UW, COIN piece is a much bigger strategic mission that requires alot of training, and much deeper set of capabilities....today it takes authorities and a sophisticated knowledge and understanding of the world today and all the other players in the game and requirements to the GCC.
As far as UW or FID The true father of what SF is capable of doing is Russel Volkman, Wendel Fertig and Don Blackburn far more than Aaron Banks Jedburghs.....three guys along with a bunch of others were in the Philippines when MacArthur was ordered to withdraw they had been doing FID for years building the infantry and other facets of their military before the Japanese took the Islands......non of these guys were SF because their was no such thing Volkman was an Infantry Cpt they withdrew to the mountains and jungles, regrouped, and executed the implied task for 3 yrs in the absence of orders and developed a guerrilla force, intel networks of agents, conducted raids, recons and ambushes, maintained records of Japanese locations strengths and weaknesses, and surviving POW's such as the Bataan Death March survivors all without 1 minute of training in these tasks.....before the age of authorities and SATCOM
You seem to very assumptive to what a GB is how they work and what makes them good they may have become mercs but they were GB's who spent 12-24mos. training to be GB's......They are unlike 15 yrs ago everywhere within the Gov these days they teach everything everywhere and have as a result disabled our force of its most critical skill and that is the ability to train others...why?....because some greedy retired guy knows he can convince someone that we need their expertise not thinking that once upon a time he was a young GB doing what a GB does to succeed and that is figure it out and train everyone else....initiative to solve dilemmas is a foundation of why the GB is valued....you see a GB is not just your run of the mill soldier he is supposed to be capable of training and force multiplying an indigenous force and fight by through, by and with them.......much more than cannot be talked about in the open.....not sure you realize how many their are that service a group with their bullshit training it is as I said before the new gold rush....for a non SF tabber who happens to be pro contract you seem to think you know how often we deal with these a-holes and how many of these parasites working state dept contracts we see making money hand over fist and killing much of our progress....no you are not going to persuade me otherwise no more than any of my SF brothers who would have someone believe they are doing a service filling a need in fact I don't know one that won't admit otherwise. Do you have any idea how many of these turds start networking within the regiment of guys who are retiring throwing jobs at them yes me as well only the dishonest ones try to sell it like amway but they all talk about the easy money. Roleplaying in schools, fielding new equipment as if we need another sniper rifle or optic that collects dust in the arms room, pulling PSD, 18E doing commo gigs, 18D Med gigs, why do you think people like us are recruited so heavily by companies like crane and others. War is a racket and there are shameless disloyal people who never want the GWOT to end and could care less if our children have to go die on foreign soil as long as the contract money train keeps rolling. I don't suppose you believe every intel report is honest as well and not just feeding themselves or someone elses career??I would rather do honest work and since I am almost done I will never again have anything to do with the DOD.I don't know what upset your ass however, I'm one of those contractors that happens too be a 18E/F/D/V/W7....:munchin
Did SF bring anyone that's been on ground for years?
I think there is also a failure of those in power to fully understand what our acronyms mean. FID is the most misunderstood - it isn't just a training mission.
Not by any stretch - but too many people simply equate 'FID' with training.
Assisting an ally in the defense of his nation goes far beyond teaching classes. There is also a contractor/active-duty dynamic that can provide unmeasurable benefit if properly managed. The biggest detractor while on active duty is the persistent inability of a true "expert" because of the litany of requirements.
A good sniper is a hard thing to produce.
He goes to school and learns the basics, then goes to a team and gets GOOD, and then goes to SWC to share that experience.
But what if your sniper gets sent to be a lane walker?
...or a SERE instructor?
We get moved through the system so often that we have fooled ourselves into thinking that SME is a title that you get from your duty position. Then when it comes time to go do FID or some other acronym based mission we decide it is easier to just pay a contractor for our PMT.
FAIL
Not all JM's are parachute SME's
Not all SFARTAETC grads are SME's with any specific firearm. otherwise, Jerry Miculek and Rod Leatham would be coming to the Army to learn how to shoot instead of the Army paying true "specialists" to help polish up our rough edges.
Now, in contrast - an 18x comes through the pipeline and goes to SFARTAETC, then gets out and goes to work for one of the myriad of small business start-ups that offers small arms SME training...
...FAIL
But we still pay those guys tons of money to "teach" us how to shoot guns or wreck cars.
Seriously, do we really need to PAY the entitiy formerly known as Blackwater high dollar so we can listen to a guy with just a few short years of team time "teach" us how to do team shit? But we do it all the time and almost all of us have been to Moyock on a boondoggle.
I didn't learn SHIT from the guys at Moyock beyond the fact that some of them like high-carry better than low carry - but they have AWESOME ranges and a laid back environment that doesn't require the headache associated with Ft Bragg range control.
Its just a matter of what you favorite "flavor" of contractor might be. The guy that does some time in the Army then gets out to sell the Army back to us - isn't doing anyone any favors unless he truly has a specialized skill-set. So what if you graduated a course in SWC - do you take that skill "home" with you? How many SFSC grads compete in NRA high-power matches or do their own shooting with their own guns when they go home?
Not every contractor is bad - not every SF guy is an SME. Some are both and some are neither.
...just my two cents
Great post
With that in mind in are there cases where a reserve 18 would be a better option than active duty due to their civilan job skills?
Okie
That's a hard question mainly because every mission in every country is different. Could a National Guard SF team be better suited ?
Sure...
But I think it would not be a organic A-team. They would need to make a Franken Team out of lets say people that are all medical professionals in civilian life.
This would only happen under special circumstances. Lets say for the sake of argument a mission to provide humanitarian assistance in country AB.
Great! we have all medical professionals on this Franken team it has mad skills.
But now comes the kick in the ass they have never worked together before and only a few of the guys have any operational knowledge of country AB and none can speak the language. (always a give and take and never perfect).
WarriorDiplomat
10-23-2017, 18:39
I don't know what upset your ass however, I'm one of those contractors that happens too be a 18E/F/D/V/W7....:munchin
Did SF bring anyone that's been on ground for years?
Look Guy I am an outspoken critic of the contracting bonanza.....I understand the gaps they fill and have filled in the past understandably there are degrees of separation that keeps government and operations separate and a degree of deniability to what the contract company does that can be dealt with much quieter and easier than a court martial....as box stated we hire contractors to come in and do things we can do ourselves....shooting contractors if honest are either talented out of the gate and that can't be taught or they got proficient by actually shooting and again their time behind the sites can't be bypassed in other words to be a good shooter go and shoot we know how.....we want our guys to be able to crash cars, roll cars and shoot paintball at each other?? done...buy a few cheap used cars with opfund buy some paintball guns for training and run a scenario.....get sprayed in the face with pepper spray or hit with a taser no problem get an MP unit or better yet lift the Armys CYA arbitrary restraints and lets us train for our mission.....we have guys today who are not sure how to run training anymore....why? of course they know what they want to do the arbitrary regulations and safety first ridiculousness has made it hard to keep up with the ever changing rules......the solution??? you might be thinking master the system?? no hey wait turnkey training provided by a contractor. I have a notion not a conspiracy their is some collusion when senior people get out and already have a job with some of these companies and turn around and sell us Army shit. I can reel off some of the companies that service our Group and every former NCO, Tm Sgt or Warrant that I suspect created these jobs.
I am as much of a capitalist as any other red blooded american but I am altruist as well and pride myself in not being a hypocrite I feel GWOT was necessary terrorism is real....Global economics is real....natural resources equate to wealth and power....Russia, China, N. Korea and Iran are real threats....Our projection of power was damaged by the previous administration.....But I am against profiting from war or any other official government activity.....we never go to war without expectations of some economic payback......the shadow wars that have been fought using soldiers for hire to avoid bringing attention to the sponsor like Angola that even the designer could not understand the reason and left the agency as a result.....if a war breaks out that threatens our sovereignty I will fight to protect my home
We want our guys to be able to crash cars, roll cars and shoot paintball at each other?? done...buy a few cheap used cars with opfund buy some paintball guns for training and run a scenario.....get sprayed in the face with pepper spray or hit with a taser no problem get an MP unit or better yet lift the Armys CYA arbitrary restraints and lets us train for our mission...
So dumb ass 10th Group is using Gryphon Group again.
We don't learn do we.... 10 years ago Gryphon Group screwed a lot of SF guys up in car wrecks because the instructors were T-boneing the students cars at higher then safe speeds in stock cars.
It was all legal in the contract that every SF guy signed. (none bothered to read) Except me and I raised a big stink about it even got me sent home early, but it forced the JAG to relook at it and it was deemed a unacceptable contract and we quit using the school lol.
Long story short Gryphon Group could do anything to anyone and held not responsible for the damage they caused.
We also found out that the only reason they used Tasers is to get data for the taser company, they taped the effects it had on each student they shocked.
This in turn got them paid because they had data on SF guys and the video for the taser company on how effective the device was even on Green beret's.
The data also helped the taser company get out of law suits later on because of the shear number of dudes Gryphon Group used the tasers on.
(good training https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Ogvnoz5rM).
Well that is the history but we never learn from it.
I will wade in on this because I think I can lend some perspective. Guy & I were two of the four replacements Blackwater sent to Iraq in 2004 for the guys killed in Fallujah. At the time, I was a Navy Reservist with no special skills or background who happened to finagle a job through networking and the fact that it was an explosively expanding industry at the time. Over the course of two years I worked four overseas gigs, did some teaching domestically (even a little overseas with a local guard force), managed to earn some cash, got some awesome training, and met some great people that led me to SF in the National Guard. Yes, my original goal with SF was to make myself more marketable in the contracting industry and yes this was during the Parker tenure at SWCS. I never went back to contracting, instead I was a Guard bum for several years until I went back on Active Duty in order to get some stability and earn a retirement. Over the course of these last 13yrs I have trained at Blackwater, T1G, ITI in Virginia, DARC, and various military posts (Eglin, Bragg, Pickett, Leonard Wood, Bliss, etc.) and been taught by private instructors of various backgrounds from electrician (Jerry Barnhart is an electrician by trade believe it or not) to retired CAG SGMs. I have also attended various courses taught at SWCS and at home station by a mixture of green suiters and contractors. I have also taught boogers in Afghanistan, julios down South, support kids at Group, and fellow Green Berets all kinds of tasks from zeroing & qualifying to CQB to combat swimmer operations to advanced demolitions.
Having said all this, here is my view point. There is plenty of work to go around for SF guys, other SOF, conventional guys, and contractors without having to extend conflicts in Afghanistan or Iraq or create new ones in Venezuela or North Korea. War is a part of humanity that will never go away. Mercenary is a time honored tradition that has lasted millennia. Commercial training vendors can give you true SME levels of knowledge most guys at Group just don't have. Their facilities also have way fewer restrictions and some times greater capabilities that allow guys to train closer to the boundary of their capabilities. Restrictions on base are often times are own fault. Many SF guys are "too cool for school" when it comes to "bullshit" tasks like writing a decent Risk Assessment, following simple range guidelines, and cleaning up properly after training. Is it really too hard to wait until your doors stop smoldering before placing them in the trash heap on the breaching range so that you don't set the pile on fire? Or how about not shooting reactive steel targets with API rounds? Too many SF guys cannot teach a 1st grader how to tie a shoe. Why is it that never once in the Q-course is the process of teaching ever taught? How comes hardly anyone knows how to write a logical effective POI? Why is it that cadre and former cadre from SWCS who should know how to teach often do not? We need to do better and we need to put more emphasis on teaching. Need more practice teaching? Ask your Advanced Skills Company if they need an AI next time they are running a class in an area one of your guys has a skill. How about having your guys teach SFBCC-S next time your HSC runs one. Actually send your new guys to an instructor training course.
Personally, I really enjoy teaching and I am proficient at it. I am also retiring and will be looking for a job in the not too distant future. Will I be looking to pimp myself and try to make a buck utilizing the skills and experience I gained while in Group? I most likely will and I might even end up teaching SF guys SF stuff if I am lucky.
x/S
Peregrino
10-24-2017, 12:45
I will wade in on this because I think I can lend some perspective. Guy & I were two of the four replacements Blackwater sent to Iraq in 2004 for the guys killed in Fallujah. At the time, I was a Navy Reservist with no special skills or background who happened to finagle a job through networking and the fact that it was an explosively expanding industry at the time. Over the course of two years I worked four overseas gigs, did some teaching domestically (even a little overseas with a local guard force), managed to earn some cash, got some awesome training, and met some great people that led me to SF in the National Guard. Yes, my original goal with SF was to make myself more marketable in the contracting industry and yes this was during the Parker tenure at SWCS. I never went back to contracting, instead I was a Guard bum for several years until I went back on Active Duty in order to get some stability and earn a retirement. Over the course of these last 13yrs I have trained at Blackwater, T1G, ITI in Virginia, DARC, and various military posts (Eglin, Bragg, Pickett, Leonard Wood, Bliss, etc.) and been taught by private instructors of various backgrounds from electrician (Jerry Barnhart is an electrician by trade believe it or not) to retired CAG SGMs. I have also attended various courses taught at SWCS and at home station by a mixture of green suiters and contractors. I have also taught boogers in Afghanistan, julios down South, support kids at Group, and fellow Green Berets all kinds of tasks from zeroing & qualifying to CQB to combat swimmer operations to advanced demolitions.
Having said all this, here is my view point. There is plenty of work to go around for SF guys, other SOF, conventional guys, and contractors without having to extend conflicts in Afghanistan or Iraq or create new ones in Venezuela or North Korea. War is a part of humanity that will never go away. Mercenary is a time honored tradition that has lasted millennia. Commercial training vendors can give you true SME levels of knowledge most guys at Group just don't have. Their facilities also have way fewer restrictions and some times greater capabilities that allow guys to train closer to the boundary of their capabilities. Restrictions on base are often times are own fault. Many SF guys are "too cool for school" when it comes to "bullshit" tasks like writing a decent Risk Assessment, following simple range guidelines, and cleaning up properly after training. Is it really too hard to wait until your doors stop smoldering before placing them in the trash heap on the breaching range so that you don't set the pile on fire? Or how about not shooting reactive steel targets with API rounds? Too many SF guys cannot teach a 1st grader how to tie a shoe. Why is it that never once in the Q-course is the process of teaching ever taught? How comes hardly anyone knows how to write a logical effective POI? Why is it that cadre and former cadre from SWCS who should know how to teach often do not? We need to do better and we need to put more emphasis on teaching. Need more practice teaching? Ask your Advanced Skills Company if they need an AI next time they are running a class in an area one of your guys has a skill. How about having your guys teach SFBCC-S next time your HSC runs one. Actually send your new guys to an instructor training course.
Personally, I really enjoy teaching and I am proficient at it. I am also retiring and will be looking for a job in the not too distant future. Will I be looking to pimp myself and try to make a buck utilizing the skills and experience I gained while in Group? I most likely will and I might even end up teaching SF guys SF stuff if I am lucky.
x/S
Well said. A lot of uncomfortable truths that have been/continue to be glossed over because too many guys have lost focus of what we're supposed to be doing.
Good luck finding that "ideal" gig when you hang up the uniform for the last time.
Well said. A lot of uncomfortable truths that have been/continue to be glossed over because too many guys have lost
focus of what we're supposed to be doing.
Good luck finding that "ideal" gig when you hang up the uniform for the last time.
Ah, you get in a jam, I send Boone, you're good.
Ah, you get in a jam, I send Boone, you're good.
Both were contractors. Actually, most involved there were. Very few staffers on the security side.
WarriorDiplomat
10-24-2017, 18:40
So dumb ass 10th Group is using Gryphon Group again.
We don't learn do we.... 10 years ago Gryphon Group screwed a lot of SF guys up in car wrecks because the instructors were T-boneing the students cars at higher then safe speeds in stock cars.
It was all legal in the contract that every SF guy signed. (none bothered to read) Except me and I raised a big stink about it even got me sent home early, but it forced the JAG to relook at it and it was deemed a unacceptable contract and we quit using the school lol.
Long story short Gryphon Group could do anything to anyone and held not responsible for the damage they caused.
We also found out that the only reason they used Tasers is to get data for the taser company, they taped the effects it had on each student they shocked.
This in turn got them paid because they had data on SF guys and the video for the taser company on how effective the device was even on Green beret's.
The data also helped the taser company get out of law suits later on because of the shear number of dudes Gryphon Group used the tasers on.
(good training https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-Ogvnoz5rM).
Well that is the history but we never learn from it.
That is exactly the point companies like Gryphon Group are still around and poisoning the good idea fairies with more good ideas and even though they were obvious with their agenda the unit still brings these half hearted guys in.....I keep seeing their new shirts floating around groups and even heard they are now located next to Ft Bragg. The owner certainly pulled the wool over the Army I suppose that's what happens when you work at the Pentagon and come up with a shady plan.....funny how the Fl LEO was much of his expertise and since he sold the 40 cal so hard I wonder if he was pushing for the weapon on behalf of the maker.
I know full well that there SME's who know more than our guys and they always will as long as they create turn key training events so that the GB who used to have to figure it out and become that jack of all trades now just has to submit a concept and sit back and be taught.....this disables the GB and the institution is feeding this gap between expectations and stated vs real capability with more contracts to further keep this disabling behavior going. There alot of basic Army shit that has been forgotten such as KISS keep it simple stupid.....in the contract bonanza everyone of the guys in the force are over saturated with expertise that the rule of seven is blown out of the water no GB has that great of a working memory and cannot effectively apply most of it. Oh well at the end of the day the illusion of highly trained guys is checking an arbitrary block that makes legals feel better even if the guys are completely over trained for training host nation forces with skills they can neither teach nor have the authority to use and concerns about things that does not affect them.....and we wonder why they get out.
Just like the falsifying of intel reports and NCOERs in the name of career progression once money is involved and a profit to be made I will never underestimate the mind of someone to find some way to make it.....the sky is falling the sky is falling....there will always be those in search of wars because there is the pot of gold for the enterprising type.....Thank god for Mercenaries and profiteers.....I wonder how many wars are engineered in the name of profit.
Smedley Butler on Interventionism
-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.
War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
The 1961 presidential farewell address that gave rise to the Military-Industrial Complex in modern American discussions.
In his farewell address to the nation, President Dwight D. Eisenhower warns the American people to keep a careful eye on what he calls the “military-industrial complex” that has developed in the post-World War II years.
A fiscal conservative, Eisenhower had been concerned about the growing size and cost of the American defense establishment since he became president in 1953. In his last presidential address to the American people, he expressed those concerns in terms that frankly shocked some of his listeners.
Eisenhower began by describing the changing nature of the American defense establishment since World War II. No longer could the U.S. afford the “emergency improvisation” that characterized its preparations for war against Germany and Japan. Instead, the United States was “compelled to create a permanent armaments industry” and a huge military force. He admitted that the Cold War made clear the “imperative need for this development,” but he was gravely concerned about “the acquisition of unwarranted influence…by the military-industrial complex.” In particular, he asked the American people to guard against the “danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”
Eisenhower’s blunt language stunned some of his supporters. They believed that the man who led the country to victory in Europe in World War II and guided the nation through some of the darkest moments of the Cold War was too negative toward the military-industrial complex that was the backbone of America’s defense. For most listeners, however, it seemed clear that Eisenhower was merely stating the obvious. World War II and the ensuing Cold War resulted in the development of a large and powerful defense establishment. Necessary though that development might be, Eisenhower warned, this new military-industrial complex could weaken or destroy the very institutions and principles it was designed to protect.
sfshooter
10-24-2017, 19:25
From a guy with only 2 years team time. I didn't join up to get tabbed and go contracting. Wasn't really anything going on like that when I was in other than the Saudi NG gig. I wanted to be SF because I thought they were the best of the best. I left because of the b.s. politics that I seen during that time frame and also with disgust at not being able to doing real training because of lack of funds and getting ranges at your post. Clinton was in office and the RIF was going on. All of our training concepts that we put in got shot down due to lack of funds if I recall. Not to say we didn't do any training, just not what we had asked for.
When I got out I never expected to do anything military oriented ever again. 4 years later 9/11 and I was going through a divorce. Rumor had it that I would be called back in because of my Arabic language schooling but that never happened. In December of that year when the news of the JDAM killing our guys I started making some phone calls. The man I called was a retired TS, he himself was debating about trying to go back in. He told me to contact USASOC and that should be it. I called one more friend who was on the weapons committee and waiting to retire. He said don't come back as the standards were being lowered and he was having to work with students who had failed tests twice on his own time per his commander's orders. I thought about it and decided to stay out.
Tits up broke from a divorce I was hunting jobs that would keep me from going in the whole 1200 a month, came across an article on Private Military Companies. I then built a resume and started throwing them out there. This was in early '03. Got picked up and was in Iraq in July of that year. Spent three years there and in those early days a majority of the guys I worked with were retired SOF and not junior NCO's like me. Yes, I did run across a lot of cowboys, and they definitely gave the industry a dirty name. I always did my best to pick up what I could from the retired guys and I never claimed to be an SME on any one task. One of the best bosses I've ever had was retired SGM Al Habelman (RIP). He was the Country Security Manager for a certain reconstruction company. When I came into country there was another kid from SF. He ended coming up hot on his piss test and got sent home. Al told me, regardless of this kid, he still preferred to pick guys from SF as they generally had cooler heads on their shoulders and made better decisions.
The flood of reconstruction companies brought in on our Government's dime caused the massive influx of security contractors. After all the top tier guys are taken you go down the list because a body on the ground is a paycheck for the security company. Hence all the guys over there that shouldn't be, whether protecting or training people. I knew a guy that had been in the Marines back in the 70's as a court recorder and he was hired to do protection. Nice guy but definitely didn't need to be there.
I agree with you Warrior Diplomat in that we should not keep these things going for the benefit of the military industrial complex. If we are going to war then go and knock it the hell out and be done with it. The politics will sort themselves out after you have kicked ass. I also agree that contractors are beneficial in some regards in a war zone. On my second contract we relieved a US artillery platoon and a 2 Para platoon from doing protection for UXO workers. These guys could go do other things besides babysit. (Ok, probably not much else for the arty guys).
As to guys that can't teach? They are there and that isn't limited to SF. I always thought I was an ok instructor and was never told otherwise. In my limited team time I remember teaching the M16A2 to a host country (quite easy for a drill sgt/wpns guy) to teaching vehicle maintenance on post WWII land rovers for another host country, to assisting instruction on British Pro mask. Other than the commo guys and medics I don't know if I knew any real SME. I was always told it was beneficial to be a jack of all trades. The amount of schooling post 9/11 guys get is so night and day from when I was in. I guess that makes a resume look that much better. Hind sight being what it is, I wish I had gone back in and stayed til retirement.
Just my .02
frostfire
10-24-2017, 21:00
Glad to hear Gryphon being called out.
Had a lively discussion with their instructor in 2011 at soldier expo about point shooting. He insisted the*«*oss style*» is the only way to go. He got the slides, video of their training with paint ball, active shooter ambushing a class and so on. He was so confident in the methodology that they removed the sights from students pistol to train them to point and not aim. IIRC, they did the poi in caqc in that time frame.
I came across these graduates and you can imagine what level of marksmanship they displayed
That is exactly the point companies like Gryphon Group are still around and poisoning the good idea fairies with more good ideas and even though they were obvious with their agenda the unit still brings these half hearted guys in.....I keep seeing their new shirts floating around groups and even heard they are now located next to Ft Bragg. The owner certainly pulled the wool over the Army I suppose that's what happens when you work at the Pentagon and come up with a shady plan.....funny how the Fl LEO was much of his expertise and since he sold the 40 cal so hard I wonder if he was pushing for the weapon on behalf of the maker.
I know full well that there SME's who know more than our guys and they always will as long as they create turn key training events so that the GB who used to have to figure it out and become that jack of all trades now just has to submit a concept and sit back and be taught.....this disables the GB and the institution is feeding this gap between expectations and stated vs real capability with more contracts to further keep this disabling behavior going. There alot of basic Army shit that has been forgotten such as KISS keep it simple stupid.....in the contract bonanza everyone of the guys in the force are over saturated with expertise that the rule of seven is blown out of the water no GB has that great of a working memory and cannot effectively apply most of it. Oh well at the end of the day the illusion of highly trained guys is checking an arbitrary block that makes legals feel better even if the guys are completely over trained for training host nation forces with skills they can neither teach nor have the authority to use and concerns about things that does not affect them.....and we wonder why they get out.
Just like the falsifying of intel reports and NCOERs in the name of career progression once money is involved and a profit to be made I will never underestimate the mind of someone to find some way to make it.....the sky is falling the sky is falling....there will always be those in search of wars because there is the pot of gold for the enterprising type.....Thank god for Mercenaries and profiteers.....I wonder how many wars are engineered in the name of profit.
Smedley Butler on Interventionism
-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.
War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
The 1961 presidential farewell address that gave rise to the Military-Industrial Complex in modern American discussions.
In his farewell address to the nation, President Dwight D. Eisenhower warns the American people to keep a careful eye on what he calls the “military-industrial complex” that has developed in the post-World War II years.
A fiscal conservative, Eisenhower had been concerned about the growing size and cost of the American defense establishment since he became president in 1953. In his last presidential address to the American people, he expressed those concerns in terms that frankly shocked some of his listeners.
Eisenhower began by describing the changing nature of the American defense establishment since World War II. No longer could the U.S. afford the “emergency improvisation” that characterized its preparations for war against Germany and Japan. Instead, the United States was “compelled to create a permanent armaments industry” and a huge military force. He admitted that the Cold War made clear the “imperative need for this development,” but he was gravely concerned about “the acquisition of unwarranted influence…by the military-industrial complex.” In particular, he asked the American people to guard against the “danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”
Eisenhower’s blunt language stunned some of his supporters. They believed that the man who led the country to victory in Europe in World War II and guided the nation through some of the darkest moments of the Cold War was too negative toward the military-industrial complex that was the backbone of America’s defense. For most listeners, however, it seemed clear that Eisenhower was merely stating the obvious. World War II and the ensuing Cold War resulted in the development of a large and powerful defense establishment. Necessary though that development might be, Eisenhower warned, this new military-industrial complex could weaken or destroy the very institutions and principles it was designed to protect.
WarriorDiplomat
10-26-2017, 20:52
Glad to hear Gryphon being called out.
Had a lively discussion with their instructor in 2011 at soldier expo about point shooting. He insisted the*«*oss style*» is the only way to go. He got the slides, video of their training with paint ball, active shooter ambushing a class and so on. He was so confident in the methodology that they removed the sights from students pistol to train them to point and not aim. IIRC, they did the poi in caqc in that time frame.
I came across these graduates and you can imagine what level of marksmanship they displayed
I will however caveat everything I said about contracting with the following
There are training events the Army cannot/will not conduct to its fullest potential for whatever reason in which a good contract company can fill gaps IOT drive home great training that students get stuff out of. There are places for the sake of national security we do not want an overt U.S. presence or peripheral needs outside the capability of the military. Armies fight wars SF does what it does (Too much to list) let the contractors do the non military taskers that the military should not be doing.
I feel the Army has created so many rules that too much time is spent navigating the bureaucracy IOT to get training done and when they can do that the safety constraints of the Army kill the intensity. I can understand why they would rather just submit a concept pay a contract and just train. My opinion is some of these arbitrary restraints seem to further contract companies ambitions and the units seem entirely too happy to pay money to people that they used to work with at some point and suspiciously seem to have jobs upon retirement....
It is just in the world of Special Forces the teaching piece is the area where we make our money and without the teaching experience gained from training your own it is hard to get better at it. Without the opportunity to teach someone how to do something we lose our ability to be effective at working through, by and with....without working through by and with effectively in a permissive environment with resources their is no way we will be able to translate that into a denied and limited resources environment. It is more than just pitching a class it is the effective communication the ability to read faces and know they are following you...communicating with groups of people takes practice and time....then the ability to communicate an intent and build some trust....the the trust and the training that leads to confidence targets and eventually to accomplishing an objective without U.S. presence that supports our objectives.