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micakno
10-08-2017, 14:51
Forgive me if I failed to find this elsewhere on the site, not very computer savvy.

I was always under the impression that the training of foreign armies did not mean SF didn't do just as much combat overall and wasn't just as good at it as other SOF groups, nor am I implying that, just needing clarity after hearing/reading a few things.

I once had a drill sergeant that was infantry that described SF as mainly trainers. He seemed to be saying they were overrated the way I perceived it and told a short story of an infantry private with an SF sergeant in a gunfight or something telling him to "get back with his weapon", as if he didn't know what he was doing. I'm not ready to believe that SF are mainly language specialists with guns, as I've heard before.

In the book the Guerrilla Factory about SF, Tony Schwalm describes the difference between the commando and the guerrilla (SF trooper). A commando can shoot move and communicate (the pillars of an effective combatant) at an unseen before alacrity. The guerrilla can do that well too, although the cultural-rapport requirement nearly precludes the ability to shoot (and perhaps move and communicate) like a commando, he says.

The Chosen Soldier by Dick Couch also says that while Rangers and SEALs for example might kick in doors faster, the strength of SF lie in its adaptability. The early missions of the 75th RR, depended on discipline, speed, surprise, and daring, traits perhaps having more in common with modern Rangers than with SF, he says. Is that to say that Rangers are more disciplined than SF? Or just that Rangers celebrate their discipline more?

Yet I have also read articles and instances where just an ODA or two were outnumbered, outpositioned, outgunned, and somehow fought their way out, a feat. Perhaps the commando starts his mission from the top, while SF excels at succeeding in disorderly conditions, rather. A matter of versatility and endurance as opposed to speed and shock; a distance runner vs a sprinter. The impression I have then is that SEALs and Rangers are more specialized in raids, while SF is better at fighting battles, more broadly. Is that so? If other SOFs are more specialized in direct action, that's one thing, but DA is still only one facet of combat, true? With that said, I ask, especially with regards to what Tony Schwalm has to say- obviously SF can teach; but can they also fight at least as well as any other SOF group?

Team Sergeant
10-08-2017, 16:59
One Hundred Green Berets overthrew the entire country of Afghanistan (With a bit of support) in a matter of weeks.

Very few of them were combat vets at the time.

Ever wonder why the US military decided to send in the Green Berets first?

Now go read more books, lots more books. :rolleyes:

sfshooter
10-09-2017, 15:27
Let me help;
The following is a partial list of reading material about SF soldiers. Almost all of them were written by SF soldiers. Almost all of them show how SF can fight against overwhelming odds. All of them show that SF has the ability to fight better than any other unit:

Assault on Dak Pek --- Leigh Wade

Reflections of a Warrior -- Franklin Miller

Blackjack 33 --- James Donahue

Blackjack 34 --- James Donahue

The Three Wars of Roy Benavidez --- Roy P. Benavidez/Oscar Griffin

Abandoned in Hell (The Siege on Firebase Kate) --- William Albracht/Marvin Wolf

Green Berets at War --- Shelby Stanton

The Only Thing Worth Dying For --- Eric Blehm

Roughneck Nine-One ---- Frank Antenori/Hans Halberstadt


As to the predecessors of modern SF read up on the First Special Service Force, OSS Jedburgh teams, and OSS Detachment 101 of WWII.
After lots of reading and researching you will see that SF is more than able to shoot, communicate, and move as well as any other SOF unit.

PRB
10-09-2017, 16:45
I've heard the same crap from some.....want to bet his Drill Sgt. was a non select at SFAS?

7624U
10-10-2017, 20:12
Rapport: I live among you.

Credibility: I am a expert and will teach you.

Value Added: I will fight with you. your enemy is my enemy.

We are Legion, we are many.

1stindoor
10-11-2017, 06:53
I've heard the same crap from some.....want to bet his Drill Sgt. was a non select at SFAS?

DING, DING, DING!....No more callers please, we have a winner. That was my thought exactly. Our biggest critics, in uniform and those that never served, have always been those that couldn't pass the muster.

Chucko
10-11-2017, 11:07
http://www.businessinsider.com/green-berets-army-special-forces-intelligent-well-trained-deadly-2017-6?pt=385758&ct=Sailthru_BI_Newsletters&mt=8&utm_source=Triggermail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email_article

:lifter:lifter:lifter

No one person can do everything so it takes a team effort with many different skill sets and personalities no matter what branch a guy is in.

micakno
10-11-2017, 19:10
That's what I thought. Team Sgt, did I ask that bad of a question? As I said, I wasn't implying anything, just had to ask since I'm a 68W not an 18 series so I wouldn't know firsthand

micakno
10-13-2017, 19:41
(deleted)

micakno
10-13-2017, 19:50
Let me help;
The following is a partial list of reading material about SF soldiers. Almost all of them were written by SF soldiers. Almost all of them show how SF can fight against overwhelming odds. All of them show that SF has the ability to fight better than any other unit:

Assault on Dak Pek --- Leigh Wade

Reflections of a Warrior -- Franklin Miller

Blackjack 33 --- James Donahue

Blackjack 34 --- James Donahue

The Three Wars of Roy Benavidez --- Roy P. Benavidez/Oscar Griffin

Abandoned in Hell (The Siege on Firebase Kate) --- William Albracht/Marvin Wolf

Green Berets at War --- Shelby Stanton

The Only Thing Worth Dying For --- Eric Blehm

Roughneck Nine-One ---- Frank Antenori/Hans Halberstadt


As to the predecessors of modern SF read up on the First Special Service Force, OSS Jedburgh teams, and OSS Detachment 101 of WWII.
After lots of reading and researching you will see that SF is more than able to shoot, communicate, and move as well as any other SOF unit.

thanks that helps

Old Dog New Trick
10-13-2017, 22:31
You got at least one thing right in your initial observation. Rangers and SEALs are the same. One is dirty dry landers and the other excels when near water. Both are young hard charging shock Infantry type units led by capable leaders with years of experience. The bulk of the force has little experience and more testosterone than brains. A bad leader or a bad decision leads to catastrophic consequences. (True for all military units, SF is not immune.)

SMUs like Delta and SEAL Tm 6 specialize in unique short term mission sets. Both are generally made up from the best of their basic SOF units and then attend schools either within the SF Q-Course or modeled after the SFQC. Many Delta Operators are experienced SF. They train hard and realistically until perfected to carry out the assigned mission or task. Then they begin again.

SF soldiers that are selected for training are generally already the best of the best and have the heart and fortitude to overcome all obstacles both mind and body. Then go through an extensive training course making them subject matter experts in all things militarily and add in cultural and language capabilities to create the ultimate warrior. An SF soldier by himself may be a formidable fighter in his own right but he is only as good as the best man around him...put him with his teammates and the skill sets and leadership capabilities combined will test the best military minds in the world to out smart them and challenge them in an asymmetric and dynamic game of cat and mouse. SF soldiers begin to operate and excel when everyone else in SOF have reached the end of their playbook. We make our own rules and break them all the time. There is only one fighting force in the United States Military where you can drop them off 'anywhere' and forget about them. Support is nice but not needed, they will figure it out and win. And that is what makes them different. Teaching others the basics is only a concept of not needing to stay any longer than necessary. Using the unique capabilities of SF combined with foreign military units as a force multiplier...you do the math.

I would really like to see one day the true capabilities of SF doing what they were invented for and have trained for unleashed on an unsuspecting country warlord or corrupt government. To train, equip, and deploy a friendly band of misfit guerrillas and dispose that form of despotic ruler. Unfortunately our gentrified form of government will never see the benefit of allowing USSF to plan, infiltrate and conduct UW without a broader plan to continue the use of sending in America's young men and women in conventional forces to raise the American flag. As Team Sergeant said, look what happened in Afghanistan before congress and the generals messed it up. We could have been done in months what still isn't done 15 years later.

There is no finer combat proficiency than having the local population fight their own battles and win the war with a little help. To teach and lead others exemplifies the true capabilities of the Green Beret. Mastery of not just one skill but superlative excellence in all skills and forms of combat proficiency is what makes a Green Beret an SF soldier.

Remington Raidr
10-14-2017, 01:08
You got at least one thing right in your initial observation. Rangers and SEALs are the same. One is dirty dry landers and the other excels when near water. Both are young hard charging shock Infantry type units led by capable leaders with years of experience. The bulk of the force has little experience and more testosterone than brains. A bad leader or a bad decision leads to catastrophic consequences. (True for all military units, SF is not immune.)

SMUs like Delta and SEAL Tm 6 specialize in unique short term mission sets. Both are generally made up from the best of their basic SOF units and then attend schools either within the SF Q-Course or modeled after the SFQC. Many Delta Operators are experienced SF. They train hard and realistically until perfected to carry out the assigned mission or task. Then they begin again.

SF soldiers that are selected for training are generally already the best of the best and have the heart and fortitude to overcome all obstacles both mind and body. Then go through an extensive training course making them subject matter experts in all things militarily and add in cultural and language capabilities to create the ultimate warrior. An SF soldier by himself may be a formidable fighter in his own right but he is only as good as the best man around him...put him with his teammates and the skill sets and leadership capabilities combined will test the best military minds in the world to out smart them and challenge them in an asymmetric and dynamic game of cat and mouse. SF soldiers begin to operate and excel when everyone else in SOF have reached the end of their playbook. We make our own rules and break them all the time. There is only one fighting force in the United States Military where you can drop them off 'anywhere' and forget about them. Support is nice but not needed, they will figure it out and win. And that is what makes them different. Teaching others the basics is only a concept of not needing to stay any longer than necessary. Using the unique capabilities of SF combined with foreign military units as a force multiplier...you do the math.

I would really like to see one day the true capabilities of SF doing what they were invented for and have trained for unleashed on an unsuspecting country warlord or corrupt government. To train, equip, and deploy a friendly band of misfit guerrillas and dispose that form of despotic ruler. Unfortunately our gentrified form of government will never see the benefit of allowing USSF to plan, infiltrate and conduct UW without a broader plan to continue the use of sending in America's young men and women in conventional forces to raise the American flag. As Team Sergeant said, look what happened in Afghanistan before congress and the generals messed it up. We could have been done in months what still isn't done 15 years later.

There is no finer combat proficiency than having the local population fight their own battles and win the war with a little help. To teach and lead others exemplifies the true capabilities of the Green Beret. Mastery of not just one skill but superlative excellence in all skills and forms of combat proficiency is what makes a Green Beret an SF soldier.

But then Big Army has to come in . . . Just sayin':rolleyes:

7624U
10-14-2017, 07:53
But then Big Army has to come in . . . Just sayin':rolleyes:

And set up the AFFES and Burger King Buildings... Then comes the posted speed limits and single magazines taped on buttstocks... The War is realy over once you see a PT belt over body armor...

micakno
10-15-2017, 14:05
You got at least one thing right in your initial observation. Rangers and SEALs are the same. One is dirty dry landers and the other excels when near water. Both are young hard charging shock Infantry type units led by capable leaders with years of experience. The bulk of the force has little experience and more testosterone than brains. A bad leader or a bad decision leads to catastrophic consequences. (True for all military units, SF is not immune.)

SMUs like Delta and SEAL Tm 6 specialize in unique short term mission sets. Both are generally made up from the best of their basic SOF units and then attend schools either within the SF Q-Course or modeled after the SFQC. Many Delta Operators are experienced SF. They train hard and realistically until perfected to carry out the assigned mission or task. Then they begin again.

SF soldiers that are selected for training are generally already the best of the best and have the heart and fortitude to overcome all obstacles both mind and body. Then go through an extensive training course making them subject matter experts in all things militarily and add in cultural and language capabilities to create the ultimate warrior. An SF soldier by himself may be a formidable fighter in his own right but he is only as good as the best man around him...put him with his teammates and the skill sets and leadership capabilities combined will test the best military minds in the world to out smart them and challenge them in an asymmetric and dynamic game of cat and mouse. SF soldiers begin to operate and excel when everyone else in SOF have reached the end of their playbook. We make our own rules and break them all the time. There is only one fighting force in the United States Military where you can drop them off 'anywhere' and forget about them. Support is nice but not needed, they will figure it out and win. And that is what makes them different. Teaching others the basics is only a concept of not needing to stay any longer than necessary. Using the unique capabilities of SF combined with foreign military units as a force multiplier...you do the math.

I would really like to see one day the true capabilities of SF doing what they were invented for and have trained for unleashed on an unsuspecting country warlord or corrupt government. To train, equip, and deploy a friendly band of misfit guerrillas and dispose that form of despotic ruler. Unfortunately our gentrified form of government will never see the benefit of allowing USSF to plan, infiltrate and conduct UW without a broader plan to continue the use of sending in America's young men and women in conventional forces to raise the American flag. As Team Sergeant said, look what happened in Afghanistan before congress and the generals messed it up. We could have been done in months what still isn't done 15 years later.

There is no finer combat proficiency than having the local population fight their own battles and win the war with a little help. To teach and lead others exemplifies the true capabilities of the Green Beret. Mastery of not just one skill but superlative excellence in all skills and forms of combat proficiency is what makes a Green Beret an SF soldier.

That's really good information. As far as Delta goes, you say many of them are prior SF veterans. I've seen it said that 70% of Delta recruits come from the Ranger Regiment, is that true?

micakno
10-15-2017, 14:09
good material... new information always welcome, I like to get as informed as I can

Old Dog New Trick
10-15-2017, 14:58
That's really good information. As far as Delta goes, you say many of them are prior SF veterans. I've seen it said that 70% of Delta recruits come from the Ranger Regiment, is that true?

Even if I could say, I wouldn’t say. They have their own selection process which is very different than SFAS and they have their own training course. They select and train for a different mission.

Astronomy
10-15-2017, 15:46
A DA raid is a raid is a raid... and all of the units in this discussion have both trained expertise and practical experience at carrying them out. A few do it almost exclusively. Many SF units are as competent at it as anyone else. Some aren't. Depends upon current mission focus.

But, when discussing DA, the two major combat proficiency differences between SF and the others are:

1. Rangers, SEALs, & Delta conduct mostly US unilateral strikes. Unit pure (mostly or all Americans) with damn few (if any) attached indigenous fighters. SF flips that on its head. Most DA assaulters & support are non-Americans. Recruited, trained, advised, & led by a very small contingent of accompanying Green Berets.

When Delta or the Rangers hit a target ... they almost all belong to that unit. When SF hits the same kind of target with a similarly sized force... most are indigenous allies. Few of whom even speak English.

2. Unilateral assaults and raids for the others are driven by national/theater level targeting. Missions are tasked, and like trained hunting falcons, they swoop off to hit the chosen target. They are transient visitors. Guided hunters. In & Out. Across a potentially very wide geographic dispersal of target sets. This region today. That region tomorrow. Not staying focused on anywhere geographically specific for the really long term (years).

SF troops develop much of their own targeting... because they typically live full time in the area they hunt. They have a persistent presence (years) and operate along several simultaneous & parallel lines of operation. Developing their own longer term military/social/political objectives for that specific area or region. This broader & longer view of the battle space requires a more patient effort. They better understand the local players and the local chessboard. When SF units strike, they usually employ proxy forces. Allied troops or irregulars.

Delta swoops in with several dozen pipe hitters, lays waste, retrieves who or what they came to get... and leaves. Like a fast passing storm. An SF ODA, months into its mission to live among and forge alliances with the locals...stays like seasonal monsoon rains that deliver occasional lightning to the bad guys. They swoop in with a same sized (or larger force) comprised almost entirely of locals who speak the language and understand the culture. And, if desired, SF can generate more DA combat power against multiple locations. Because, out in the battle space, they directly control vastly more available combatants than those other outfits.

Try room clearing shoulder to shoulder with people who don't speak your language. Try creating a many thousand strong ground force of very competent, DA capable foreign fighters... then leading them on a systematic campaign of persistent combat operations... spread across an entire nation. Multiple operations conducted daily across a very wide region. For years. SF is a force multiplier for creating indigenous allied combat power. Several deployed SF battalions can field a Light Division worth of capable indig for continuous ops out on the battlefield. Indig fighters who get things done on offensive missions rather than man static checkpoints. The deployed SF geographical footprint is often much larger than that of other organizations...encompassing an entire country or region. Low density presence, but with Operational/Strategic impact out of all proportion to very limited presence of SF boots on the ground.

When ISIS ran riot across Iraq in 2014, and the American trained Iraqi Army folded like wet toilet paper, only a couple of Iraqi units stood, stayed in the fight, and kept the Baghdad regime from falling. Those were national level SOF units trained and organized by US Army Special Forces across the previous decade of counter-insurgency conflict. Well experienced & motivated Iraqi combat vets in continuous battlefield partnership with US Army Special Forces. Misused as Emergency Fire Brigades by the panicked government in Baghdad. After the Iraqi Divisions previously trained by conventional US advisors & academies melted away under fire. Those Iraqi SOF units are still leading all the major fights in Iraq today. That speaks volumes about SF combat proficiency.

We train foreign partnered troops to be as good as we are. At least that's the goal, given enough time. And in 2014 Iraq, those SF trained Iraqi forces proved to be pretty damn good. Because their previous SF trainers & battle partners were also pretty damn good. Which was fortunate for the nation of Iraq. I believe that without the presence of those Iraqi SOF units, ISIS would have occupied Baghdad and usurped the Iraqi government. Precipitating overt invasion by Iran and possible resultant direct conflict with US forces. Army SF long term efforts had a strategic payoff during the events of 2014.

SEALs? They do what they do (DA & Maritime) remarkably well. They integrate professionally with SF when it comes to doing the By, With, & Through thing as well. But it's not their forte.

Delta? They do what they do extremely well. They don't do indig or cover down on persistent presence. ST6? Same, same.

Rangers? Good at DA. But, at the core of things, the average Ranger is a 19-21 year old Soldier on his first enlistment. And there's only so much a young man can know (or absorb) at that age & 1-3 years of military experience.

SF? The average Green Beret is a guy already several tours into his career. He's older and already been around the block. He's already done the Ranger Regiment thing, or served as a combat leader in other units. He's a seasoned NCO, WO, or Officer... not a first term Private or Sailor. He excels at small unit ops & specialty skills, has cross cultural inclinations, speaks another language (to varying degrees), and is an out of the box thinker and doer. A gunfighter who can train other gunfighters. But for SF, DA is usually just a subset of the overarching UW mission. Occasionally it become the prime gig for certain units. An unofficial motto for SF is "Stay Flexible... Like Gumby's Dick on a Hot Afternoon". Ready to adopt new capabilities and skill sets to meet emergent circumstances.

SF combat proficiency? The historical record suggests plenty.

micakno
10-17-2017, 19:00
good material... new information always welcome, I like to get as informed as I can

micakno
10-17-2017, 19:03
Now go read more books, lots more books. :rolleyes:

Hey guy, I'm here to learn, no need to mock me for it

scooter
10-17-2017, 19:17
:munchinHey guy, I'm here to learn, no need to mock me for it

Old Dog New Trick
10-17-2017, 19:21
Hey guy, I'm here to learn, no need to mock me for it

After you pull that pin, remember which piece to drop which piece to throw. :eek:

Joker
10-17-2017, 20:27
Hey guy, I'm here to learn, no need to mock me for it

Chew-toy you should pay attention to who and how you address.

That is going to leave a mark. :munchin

We really, really need a face palm emoji!

abc_123
10-17-2017, 21:29
Hey guy, I'm here to learn, no need to mock me for it

You aren't being mocked, but you are seriously lacking in SA (otherwise known as Situational Awareness).

I think you would be a good candidate for banning and being immortalized for generations to follow. Don't feel offended, doc. It would be for the greater good.

7624U
10-18-2017, 06:36
I'm new and here to learn, please except my apology TM SGT may I clean the latrine or maybe sweep the hall

All fixed

Team Sergeant
10-18-2017, 12:01
Hey guy, I'm here to learn, no need to mock me for it

The older I get the more I realize I’ve developed a sub-zero tolerance for stupid. If you took the time to read our rules you’d realize that here you are the “guest” and this is our house and our rules.

If you truly desire to “learn” do what you’re told, otherwise:

micakno
10-23-2017, 19:18
I see that you have rules and have read them. I just found it a bit rude being told sardonically to go off and read some more books. Isn't that what this site is for, discussing and exchanging material about Special Forces?

SF_BHT
10-23-2017, 19:51
I see that you have rules and have read them. I just found it a bit rude being told sardonically to go off and read some more books. Isn't that what this site is for, discussing and exchanging material about Special Forces?

Do what you were told or you will not last long.

No need to respond just comply.

The Reaper
10-23-2017, 20:50
I see that you have rules and have read them. I just found it a bit rude being told sardonically to go off and read some more books. Isn't that what this site is for, discussing and exchanging material about Special Forces?

I believe that the instructions given you were beneficial and within your abilities.

Learning is a lifetime pursuit of most SF guys I know. I would recommend reading the three stickies at the top of this forum before posting further.

As stated, you should comply, go into listening silence, or leave.

Your call.

TR

micakno
11-25-2017, 09:43
if you say so
not looking for another mess

miclo18d
11-25-2017, 10:35
I remember on my 2nd trip to A-Stan, we were attached to a Bn of 10th Motown and after about 3 days of skirmishes where we were pretty much the main effort, the Bn Cdr put us in the center of his perimeter and let us have a break.

At some point the BC decided to drop a 2000 lb JDAM on a suspected enemy position. We all listened intently to our CCTs radio as the mission was going in. The B52 came over and announced that the weapon was away and then seconds later, that they had lost guidance.

Everyone cringed...

Just like I’m doing here with this fuktard and his lack of situational awareness.

Hey Assclown!!! Everyone is giving you hint after hint after hint to shut your pie hole and not insult the Quiet Professionals on this board (hint look under their names, it says “Quiet Professional” not “asset” like under your own name; oh yeah, the first guy you insult: is the owner of the website, <<facepalm>>)

PS The JDAM hit just outside the Bn perimeter and gave one of his companies a serious jolt. That was a scary feeling!

Astronomy
11-25-2017, 15:53
micakno: "if you say so"

What kind of passive-aggressive get-in-the-last-word turn of phrase is that?

You're wrong as two boys fucking, but not enough of a man to just admit it and move on. Instead, you post like a butt-hurt little child when criticized. That doesn't fly here. The proper response to The Reaper's very polite and wise guidance would look more like this:

1. "Roger."
2. "Understood."
3. "Got it."

or, just...

4. Don't bother replying. Just take the advice. When you don't have anything meaningful to say, simply STFU. You'll appear wiser than you actually are.

Somebody call in the Big Black Chinook for this guy.

Old Dog New Trick
11-25-2017, 16:45
micakno,

Before you go, know this: you came into our house and asked a question. You were immediately treated with respect and dignity not having to earn anything before hand; that’s how we operate in the real world. Respect given, rapport built, respect returned in spades. Only you didn’t. You didn’t take the time to read more post less. You didn’t take the time or have the situational awareness to show respect to the HMFIC here and most probably elsewhere.

You were informed to follow our rules and fill out an Introduction. That took way more effort on our part than the introduction you provided. Look and read others and then look at yours again.

You were asked respectfully and repeatedly to cool your jets and show some respect to the one person who made all this possible and you still show a lack of judgment.

I would not bother with any future aspirations of being SF or subjecting yourself to the arduous training and commitment needed. You failed step one and you failed to take corrective action not once but several times. We don’t have time for that. Not here and not downrange where things matter. If there is no trust in the Team Room there is no trust anywhere on this earth.

A Team Sergeant here on this forum is just like a Team Sergeant in the unit. He may not be God but to everyone on that team he is God. You either figure that out quick or you don’t. We don’t have time or patience to play nice within our own ranks, there are too many indigenous tribal leaders, ministers, ambassadors, generals, and foreign troops to build a foundation of trust around.

I’ve just expended more effort and time on someone I don’t even know than the amount of time it would have taken me to throw all your CIF shit out my door and into the hallway!

You had your chance at redemption. Bye!

SF_BHT
11-25-2017, 21:18
Here here.... he needs to go.... I know it is the start of the holidays but he does not deserve any presents....

Joker
11-25-2017, 22:19
Here here.... he needs to go.... I know it is the start of the holidays but he does not deserve any presence....

Fixed it.

Team Sergeant
11-27-2017, 08:14
Special Forces Questions

This is a forum where civilians can "ask" the Special Forces soldiers past and present "Special Forces" related questions.

Those questions are then answered by Special Forces soldiers, period.

Questions asked by the general public should NOT be answered by the "general" public.

If you do not have the title of "Quiet Professional" you may ask a question, but leave the "answers" to the QP's.