unlawful arrest by LEO

[frostfire]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQ1-LQOkns

Video speaks for itself :mad:
I found it disturbing on so many levels. However, it also makes me wonder what I would do if I see my peer blatantly abuses position of power and public trust like that.

We just heard on the news so many heroic and wonderful things the PD did and still does in Houston, then here comes a bad apple and availability/confirmation bias takes over as seen in most comments.

[Badger52]

I note that FNC only recently picked it up & the Commie News Network buries it online under their "Health" section (because personal liberty means so much to them). A blogger had some thoughts I'll expand on that remain a good summary which Salt Lake gov't might want to look at:

Note: Charges have not been filed against the nurse.

Fire the officer(s) who arrested her, for cause, without benefits or pension. That includes the watch commander who told the officer to drive on pursuing this line of abuse. (The officer has apparently been placed on "administrative leave" which I believe means they sit home with pay awaiting outcome of an "investigation" at the speed of glaciers.)

Refer the officer & watch commander for prosecution for false arrest, kidnapping, and violation of civil rights. (I have heard, but do not know, that a conspiracy on a misdemeanor assault then becomes a felony.)

Demote his/her/their supervisors.

Make entire department go through mandatory re-training on why this is against the law. (Welcome to Death by PowerPoint & Old-School Civics-101.)

Revoke all sovereign immunity, so the nurse, hospital, and all patients affected can sue the officer(s) in question, the city, and the SLPD, for whatever exorbitant civil damages multiple juries think are justified and fair. Something in the mid nine figure range looks appropriate based on the video. (Note to the Nurse: Please don't say "it's not about the money." You must make this kind of thing ruinously expensive or it will happen again.)

Require the mayor, the police chief, the watch commander, and the supervising sergeant(s) of the officer(s) in question make a full, forthright, rapid, and public apology, on air and in writing, to that nurse, her co-workers, the patients, hospital, staff, and citizens of of Salt Lake City for this egregious violation and badge-happy horseshit. (Given this happened back in July "rapid" is a relative term.)

Hopefully someday other officers will look at that video, as the nurse tried to explain the agreed-to joint hospital/SLPD policy and her supervisor pointed out that he was screwing the pooch, they will file under "shunned experienced counsel."
:rolleyes:

[JJ_BPK]

In one of the news articles, it was mentioned that the hospital and local LEO's has "agreed to a policy" that:

1)needed judges order or search warrant
2)person has to be under arrest
3)or has to give consent

I thought this was determined years ago at federal level???

1) on the due process, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments
2) unreasonable search & seizure, Forth Amendment

Where are the 2L's??



Wubbels, the charge nurse in the burn unit, presented the officers with a printout of hospital policy on drawing blood and said their request did not meet the criteria. Hospital policy specified police needed either a judge's order or the patient's consent, or the patient needed to be under arrest, before obtaining a blood sample.

"I'm just trying to do what I'm supposed to do. That's all," Wubbels tells the officers, according to the body camera video.

Wubbels' attorney, Karra Porter, said Friday the university and Salt Lake City police had agreed to the policy more than a year ago and "the officers here appeared to be unaware of" it.

"There's no dispute that the blood draw policy was jointly prepared and in effect for quite some time," Porter told CNN.



Confused FOG???

[Surf n Turf]

In one of the news articles, it was mentioned that the hospital and local LEO's has "agreed to a policy" that:

1)needed judges order or search warrant
2)person has to be under arrest
3)or has to give consent

I thought this was determined years ago at federal level???

1) on the due process, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments
2) unreasonable search & seizure, Forth Amendment

Where are the 2L's??

Confused FOG???

JJ_BPK,
I'm a confused FOG.........
This detective, Jeff Payne, is a power freak, who will be obeyed !!!!. :mad:

I don't know if this involved steroids or hemorrhoids, but it sure looked like 'roid rage" to me, and you are correct that this is "settled law" (BIRCHFIELD v. NORTH DAKOTA, No. 14-1468, The Fourth Amendment permits warrantless breath tests incident to arrests for drunk driving but not warrantless blood tests. Pp. 13-36.).

As to reason, I think that this was an attempt to determine if the truck driver (and fellow LEO) had any alcohol or drugs in his system, so that if he initiated a lawsuit claiming negligence, because of the police initiated high-speed car chase that caused the crash, the PD would have a position to defend. In a written report, Payne said he was responding to a request from Logan police to get the blood sample, to determine whether the patient had illicit substances in his system at the time of the crash.

My understanding is that many PD's have outlawed high speed pursuits (except for felony arrests, i.e. Bank robbery, murder, etc.) because the results were often that the bad guy would flee, and the "chase" put citizen at risk.

SnT


http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/14-1468.html

[Stingray]

JJ_BPK,
"because of the police initiated high-speed car chase that caused the crash" ]

I agree with everything you have said thus far, SnT, with the exception of this sentence. My thoughts are different. I think a chase initiated is because someone fails to pull over when signaled. The driver failing to pull over is responsible for the chase and not the PD. I think if we blame the PD for chases all wanted fugitives have to do is drive over X and they know they won't be followed.
I booked in a guy not long ago because a deputy saw him driving without his headlights on and attempted to pull him over. The guy fled but was apprehended. They found a woman duck taped and rope tied in his car. She was his third victim. They had no leads and no descriptions. Headlights broke the case.
These are my thoughts. Now I have spent much of my adult life working in corrections. Therefore, 8 hours per day is listening to convicted felons talk about these kind of things. So that is the prism I see this type of problem through.

Just my .02 cents.

[miclo18d]

I note that FNC only recently picked it up & the Commie News Network buries it online under their "Health" section (because personal liberty means so much to them). A blogger had some thoughts I'll expand on that remain a good summary which Salt Lake gov't might want to look at:

Note: Charges have not been filed against the nurse.

Fire the officer(s) who arrested her, for cause, without benefits or pension. That includes the watch commander who told the officer to drive on pursuing this line of abuse. (The officer has apparently been placed on "administrative leave" which I believe means they sit home with pay awaiting outcome of an "investigation" at the speed of glaciers.)

Refer the officer & watch commander for prosecution for false arrest, kidnapping, and violation of civil rights. (I have heard, but do not know, that a conspiracy on a misdemeanor assault then becomes a felony.)

Demote his/her/their supervisors.

Make entire department go through mandatory re-training on why this is against the law. (Welcome to Death by PowerPoint & Old-School Civics-101.)

Revoke all sovereign immunity, so the nurse, hospital, and all patients affected can sue the officer(s) in question, the city, and the SLPD, for whatever exorbitant civil damages multiple juries think are justified and fair. Something in the mid nine figure range looks appropriate based on the video. (Note to the Nurse: Please don't say "it's not about the money." You must make this kind of thing ruinously expensive or it will happen again.)

Require the mayor, the police chief, the watch commander, and the supervising sergeant(s) of the officer(s) in question make a full, forthright, rapid, and public apology, on air and in writing, to that nurse, her co-workers, the patients, hospital, staff, and citizens of of Salt Lake City for this egregious violation and badge-happy horseshit. (Given this happened back in July "rapid" is a relative term.)

Hopefully someday other officers will look at that video, as the nurse tried to explain the agreed-to joint hospital/SLPD policy and her supervisor pointed out that he was screwing the pooch, they will file under "shunned experienced counsel."
:rolleyes:
Somewhat knee jerk solution there badger... the same punishment you would undoubtedly complain about if a soldier had assaulted a woman and you were in his CoC and were fired, demoted, or en masse "reeducated"

Mass punishment rarely get the desired results. Punish the guilty type up a memo that openly explains the laws that were broken and how to avoid your own firing if this were to be abused by another officer. Done. And be quick about it. In today's fast paced world justice gets hidden after 6mo-3yr investigations that end in secrecy with the officer wrapped on the wrist (thanks to their commie unions).

[Badger52]

Somewhat knee jerk solution there badger... the same punishment you would undoubtedly complain about if a soldier had assaulted a woman and you were in his CoC and were fired, demoted, or en masse "reeducated" You're right IF it was an isolated incident and there was no continued pattern of tolerance for such things. However, as is shown in this 2nd video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJPVglqR4yM), where an officer indicates to one of the hospital security staff (before Payne goes ballistic) that they do this kind of thing all the time, there is a rationale for going higher than the officers on scene. Absent other information I'll stick by making the consequences horrible when such a pattern of cavalier disregard for law - by a police department - exists. (That said, I'm sure the powers in the city are busy distancing themselves as much as possible, invoking the old IMF rules against their Mr. Phelps in the ER.)

[Badger52]

So if a guy robs a bank just once or kidnaps a kid just once he should not be prosecuted? This is not an incident of gray area, bad judgement or loosing his cool in the heat of an incident this is outright violation of the law.That was not what I said at all. Relook what I posted in context of replying to the previous post by miclo18d.

[miclo18d]

You're right IF it was an isolated incident and there was no continued pattern of tolerance for such things. However, as is shown in this 2nd video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJPVglqR4yM), where an officer indicates to one of the hospital security staff (before Payne goes ballistic) that they do this kind of thing all the time, there is a rationale for going higher than the officers on scene. Absent other information I'll stick by making the consequences horrible when such a pattern of cavalier disregard for law - by a police department - exists. (That said, I'm sure the powers in the city are busy distancing themselves as much as possible, invoking the old IMF rules against their Mr. Phelps in the ER.)

The officer called the on duty Lt. and the Lt. told him to arrest the nurse and take the blood. He is culpable as well. Illegal order given and illegal order obeyed, they are both shit bags unless the Lt. was led astray by a less than truthful story from the officer.

True, I needed to look into it a little deeper. It would appear that there may be an endemic problem at the SLC PD. I agree that there should be some serious hammers dropped. However, I have seen where dropping hammers is counter productive and those "good" cops (or soldiers, or other group, etc) will feel they have done something wrong or are being punisher for some asshole they never liked to begin with. Again punish those that did wrong, teach others why they were punished, give proper procedures to others so that it doesn't happen again.

The part that troubles me is that normally cops and hospitals are extremely fond of each other. Nurses help cops and cops help them (at least here in Tampa).

[Badger52]

The part that troubles me is that normally cops and hospitals are extremely fond of each other. Nurses help cops and cops help them (at least here in Tampa).I agree; sad because it denigrates the mechanism on a larger scale & is likely to taint relationships built over time. Hope not; I know a couple local RN's & they function very well with the (admittedly small in comparison) PD here and, ultimately, that success occurs in conduct between 2 people interacting, day in/day out. As Ten Bears said in Josey Wales, "No paper can hold the iron. It must come from men."

As an aside, the officer's body language pre-arrest speaks volumes.

[Texas_Shooter]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/02/salt-lake-city-police-other-departments-endure-growing-wave-of-public-criticism-after-nurses-arrest/

He really picked on the wrong profession. What he did wasn't that bad, as its been said on this forum he was following orders but because of the public outcry, especially nationwide, someone will need to go and someone will probably be demoted. Should any sort of charges be pressed against him...NO.

Those who yield great authority must exercise great judgement and restraint. Handcuffing a nurse who is CLEARLY following hospital policy is not showing restraint but to me is showing himself to be a hothead and quick to action instead of using his greatest weapon, his mind.

https://youtu.be/yia7qs01z1M

Heres more of the video. In not sure who that is thats talking to her when she's in the car but it seems like a supervisor to the Detective that arrested her.

I wanna know what the DA or ADA said to the arresting officer when they called them to see what they could formally charge her with. If the hospitals lawyers had were already ahead of the cops and calling the District Attorney's Office to see what was going on.

[Peregrino]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/09/02/salt-lake-city-police-other-departments-endure-growing-wave-of-public-criticism-after-nurses-arrest/

---- Should any sort of charges be pressed against him...NO.-------

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? In other words - I disagree with you - vehemently. Police are endowed by their communities with the power to deprive persons of life and liberty. Those who wield great authority must exercise great judgement and restraint. This officer (?) did none of that, instead choosing to abuse the power inherent in his position. This asshat needs to be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Criminally and again civilly. And his department with him. Start with assault and false imprisonment, maybe add some conspiracy charges and go from there. The only legal way to restrain abusive law enforcement is to make examples of the perpetrators and levy crippling fines against their departments. That way, when the insurance company refuses to pay and the taxpayer is left holding the bag, maybe the citizens will force a house cleaning and the example will induce restraint in other agencies.

And yes - one asshat screws it for everyone. On the other hand, I'm sure there were any number of his fellow police officers who knew he was prone to "acting out" inappropriately and did nothing to prevent it.

[Badger52]

No that is EXACTLY what you said but because he has a badge you are applying a diffrent standard. If that was some guy on the street tying her up and putting in his van for 20 min then letting her go you would say he needs to go to prison. The fact the was wearing a badge makes no differance.Last try:
miclo18d inquired about my approach to punishing more than just the officer. I pointed out (to use your street analogy) that he had accomplices (e.g., getaway driver/person who held the victim down/supervisor). Certainly if it's the one perp he needs to get tossed in the can; if there are others in a conspiracy or who facilitate the law-breaking, they're fair game too (as I believe in this case). Nowhere did I imply a different standard because the offender wears a badge.

Although a case could be made, since they are often the benefactors of case-law erring on the side of LE, that they should be held to a higher standard, that's another discussion. He assaulted her & wrongfully imprisoned her subsequent to trying to solicit her to commit a battery that she wasn't going to take part in. That's enough, badge or no badge. Trackin' yet?

[Texas_Shooter]

...This asshat needs to be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Criminally and again civilly. And his department with him. Start with assault and false imprisonment, maybe add some conspiracy charges and go from there. The only legal way to restrain abusive law enforcement is to make examples of the perpetrators and levy crippling fines against their departments. That way, when the insurance company refuses to pay and the taxpayer is left holding the bag, maybe the citizens will force a house cleaning and the example will induce restraint in other agencies.

And yes - one asshat screws it for everyone. On the other hand, I'm sure there were any number of his fellow police officers who knew he was prone to "acting out" inappropriately and did nothing to prevent it.

If she had been slammed up against the wall or pavement or he used her head to dent the top of his roof, I ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agree with you about the criminal and civil punishment part. He will more than likely loose his job and that should be punishment enough for him. This will stain his professional jacket for the rest of his life. Google his name and his name pops up. So he is up shit creek without a paddle. Maybe a rent-a-cop gig where he gets a flash light and maybe some mace. That right there should be punishment enough. And yes you're right one asshat messes it up for everyone. One of the articles said that police departments all over Utah were getting complaints about this incident even though it had nothing to do with their department.

[Peregrino]

If she had been slammed up against the wall or pavement or he used her head to dent the top of his roof, I ONE HUNDRED PERCENT agree with you about the criminal and civil punishment part. He will more than likely loose his job and that should be punishment enough for him. This will stain his professional jacket for the rest of his life. Google his name and his name pops up. So he is up shit creek without a paddle. Maybe a rent-a-cop gig where he gets a flash light and maybe some mace. That right there should be punishment enough. And yes you're right one asshat messes it up for everyone. One of the articles said that police departments all over Utah were getting complaints about this incident even though it had nothing to do with their department.

It doesn't (or shouldn't) take being slammed up against the wall or pavement or having her head used to dent the top of his roof to initiate criminal and civil sanctions. If you, in the capacity of a private citizen, had done the same to someone, where would you be today? I contend you would be in jail awaiting trial, just like that neo-Nazi tool in WV who pepper sprayed the ANTIFA thug to keep from getting his ass beat by the "counter-demonstrators". Why should a rouge law enforcement agent not face at least the same sanctions?

And no - I don't think I'm being overly harsh. I've never been a cop; however, I spent 28 years as a Soldier. Every time I was someplace "hostile" I knew my every action was subject to second guessing by armchair quarterbacks with no skin in the game. I (just like every other Soldier who goes/has gone into harm's way) was held to an impossible standard because I too had the power of life and/or imprisonment over people with whom I interacted. I was expected to exercise that "great restraint" and I expected to be held accountable if I failed to act as charged. (Besides - it was good policy. Mess over civilians in a COIN conflict and they'll figure out how to kill you; not a problem US cops ever face.) I've no problem demanding that LEOs be held to a similar standard and punished severely when they fail to uphold it. Again - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I say it is all of us.

As for losing his job and never getting another one in law enforcement - I don't believe it for a minute. There are too many instances of bad cops moving one county or city over and going right back to work in a different department with a clean slate.

[Texas_Shooter]

If every police officer faced criminal and civil charges for detaining someone then hundreds if not thousands of officers would be liable. Officers temporarily detain people while they check out a story or search a vehicle or let a situation deescalate between two individuals. I think police officers should walk on egg shells and have better interactions with the public but opening them up to that sort of liability (I would think) would essentially hinder them from doing their jobs safely so that everyone can return home at the end of watch. If he has to be made the example and the DA presses charges so be it. Nurse Wubbels at this moment it seems from news articles does not want to take it any further than the apology.

[Peregrino]

Texas Shooter - You and I are never going to see eye to eye on this. What he attempted to force her to do and his reaction when she rightly refused to comply does not equate to the temporary detentions you cite. If she declines to prosecute, that's her decision. I for one will be disappointed because he will have gotten away with violating the public trust. I don't know what your understanding of the concept of a "social contract" is but I contend it's the only thing that maintains a civilized veneer over modern society. His actions (as the actions of any rouge element) violates that compact, provides cause to the anarchists, and weakens the fabric of society. I've spent enough time in countries where the institutions of government were reviled and the social contract didn't exist that I never want to see it here. Unfortunately, we're already on that slippery slope with violent civil unrest and organized movements de-legitimizing the instruments of governance (especially law enforcement). I want this person scapegoated (because his actions make him an ideal sacrifice) to show that the police value the social contract and want to preserve the public trust and confidence. It's probably too little, too late, but it needs to be done.

[Badger52]

I think police officers should walk on egg shells and have better interactions with the public but opening them up to that sort of liability (I would think) would essentially hinder them from doing their jobs safely so that everyone can return home at the end of watch.

Curious: How does a lack of immunity from criminal action prevent someone from going home at the end of their watch?

[echoes]

Texas Shooter - You and I are never going to see eye to eye on this. What he attempted to force her to do and his reaction when she rightly refused to comply does not equate to the temporary detentions you cite. If she declines to prosecute, that's her decision. I for one will be disappointed because he will have gotten away with violating the public trust. I don't know what your understanding of the concept of a "social contract" is but I contend it's the only thing that maintains a civilized veneer over modern society. His actions (as the actions of any rouge element) violates that compact, provides cause to the anarchists, and weakens the fabric of society. I've spent enough time in countries where the institutions of government were reviled and the social contract didn't exist that I never want to see it here. Unfortunately, we're already on that slippery slope with violent civil unrest and organized movements de-legitimizing the instruments of governance (especially law enforcement). I want this person scapegoated (because his actions make him an ideal sacrifice) to show that the police value the social contract and want to preserve the public trust and confidence. It's probably too little, too late, but it needs to be done.


Peregrino Sir,


Very, very well said, IMHO!:munchin


Bravo!!!


Holly

[Texas_Shooter]

At no point have I advocated criminal immunity for this officer or any police officer. As we have seen around the country when police officers over step the bounds of law they are charged and found guilty. He did wrong and he should be punished as such. If they break the law they should be held accountable but other than being an asshat as one QP calls him what can they charge him with?

[Peregrino]

At no point have I advocated criminal immunity for this officer or any police officer. As we have seen around the country when police officers over step the bounds of law they are charged and found guilty. He did wrong and he should be punished as such. If they break the law they should be held accountable but other than being an asshat as one QP calls him what can they charge him with?

I think Brush Okie lays out an excellent starting point in post #25. YMMV.

[miclo18d]

Because there is a big difference between a legal detention of a suspect to investigate a crime and detaining someone illegally. Oh yea I wore a badge for a few years.

Under California law his charges would be as followed

Assault- threats to use force

Battery- actually using force it putting his hands on her and cuffing her. No need to shove her around

Assault under color of authority.

False imprisonment aka kidnapping.

I don't know Utah law but my guess they have similar laws. Also illegal detention is a Federal issue not a state by state case when it involved law enforcement. This should be the immediate response. Although the FBI/DOJ isn't the most "trustworthy" agency to investigate at the moment.


You can not detain anyone you like, you have to have a probable cause or at least reasonable suspecian they committed a crime. In this case the nurse was NOT suspected of a crime she just failed to comply with an illegal order so he got pissed off and cuffed her up. Any reasonable officer in that case should have known that he could not do that under what was known by the officer at that time. He should have known he could not even legally ask her to do a blood draw. It goes back to if he had enough PC why did he screw around making calls to his LT and everyone else, why not get a warrant or arrest the guy so he could do it LEGALLY. He is just a lazy prick that is used to bullying people is what it comes down to.
i sum this up as the "You want to go to jail tonight?" paradigm. If you don't comply, you go to jail, whether or not you have PC or whether or not you intent to charge someone with a crime. Basically, I'm the police and I can do whatever I want! The threat (and that is what it is) is normally enough to ensure compliance.


Implied consent means if someone is unable to give consent for medical treatment due to age or mental status you can treat their medical condition. It has zero to do with investigating a crime.

Here is the worse part, they very well could have been intoxicated but thanks to this dumb ass cop he will NOT be prosecuted. He fucked up this case so bad the DA would be an idiot to prosecute and I doubt a jury would convict. Remember he may have been intoxicated and killed someone, how about justice for the dead guy? All because some ass hat wanted to cut corners and bully hospital staff.

Serious problems require serious solutions. I have always been an advocate of if a person with the public trust breaks the law, the punishment should be more severe.

This guy is a complete tool and the "thin blue line" has screwed itself over by carrying his water. Loyalty is a 2 way street. I've even heard this attitude talked about in team rooms. "No matter how screwed up of something that you do, I'll be there to cover your six". I'll tell you something, I won't go to jail for anyone but myself, especially if your doing something illegal.

[bblhead672]

I think police officers should walk on egg shells and have better interactions with the public but opening them up to that sort of liability (I would think) would essentially hinder them from doing their jobs safely so that everyone can return home at the end of watch.

I'm so sick of hearing this bulls**t crap about cops wanting to do whats necessary so they can just go home at that end of their shift. If that's the kind of job they desire, find one that doesn't run the risk of being killed every shift.

EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN just wants to go home at the end of their workday without being beaten, robbed or murdered by their fellow citizens. Likewise they also want to return home without being wrongfully detained, assaulted, killed or have their possessions confiscated by over zealous armed officers of the state.

I recommend you read the book "Rise of the Warrior Cop" by Radley Balko. Perhaps then you will understand that this incident is not an outlier by a single LEO.

[GratefulCitizen]

Dealing with individual incidents and dealing with systemic issues require different solutions.
There are laws in place to deal with the individual incident, it just takes a prosecutor willing to do his job.

The systemic solution is simple, but not easy.
Higher pay for LEOs, and make it very easy to lose your job for minor breaches of trust.

High pay and high standards attract the highest quality.

[frostfire]

AFAIK, the head nurse has not filed any suit. She is a better, more noble, graceful person than me for sure.

Yes, ER and PD is normally pretty tight. Every now and then it gets irritating when PD drops a juvie instead of taking him/her to jail but I understand they have their prerogatives and CYA need too.

If this officer desires any redemption or restoration of trust for his department (and profession), he would make a public apology in person to the head nurse. Something along the line of
"Ma'am, I was wrong and I sincerely apologize. I let emotion and work pressure got the best of me. I hurt you and I betrayed my profession. No one should ever be treated like that. To show that I am committed not to ever repeat these mistakes or let other do the same, I have volunteered to give a department-wide briefing over what took place so everyone can learn from my mistake. Whatever legal recourse you wish to take, I understand I must pay for what I did. Thank you for allowing me to apologize in person"

[Peregrino]

frostfire - You're either far less jaded than I or far more generous (probably both :p). When I hear a public figure give an apology I can only equate it to damage control; i.e., let's placate the masses so I can get back to doing whatever it was that got me in trouble in the first place. Celebrity "mea culpas" have destroyed any credibility public apologies might once have held. Witness Ms. Kathy Griffin as our latest example.

[Guy]

Find the law firm that represented Disney when that alligator snatched that 2y/o kid and settle out of court with NDA agreement...

[frostfire]

frostfire - You're either far less jaded than I or far more generous (probably both :p).

Neither, just a (very) flawed person.

I probably have committed, almost committed, or contemplated to commit something as egregious as officer bully did. If my turn ever comes, I sure wish for atonement, grace, and mercy.

[Badger52]

When I hear a public figure give an apology I can only equate it to damage control; i.e., let's placate the masses so I can get back to doing whatever it was that got me in trouble in the first place.You're right, and they can't fix this one with Twitter. I understand that she probably has a desire to move on and - more than a month along - has needed some time to process what happened. But I still hope her attorney will work with her to force a lesson on this department that changes behavior because it is a systemic problem with them. The video I linked in post #9 shows, near the end, yet another officer talking with her (lecturing, really) after she's already cuffed in the car. And he's telling her, basically, "hey, there's no reason not to cooperate with us because if it turns out to be bad evidence in the way it was taken it'll get tossed in court and that's on us [not the nurse]" - which is at best a half-truth. He knows it, or should know it. In my recollection these things don't change until the city's insurer says 'Damn, that hurt." Everything else for them is "optics."

[Animal8526]

Perhaps I'm severely jaded, but the "few bad apples trope" rings false for me these days...

I point towards two general pieces of evidence, nebulous as they may be.

First, with the utter proliferation of video cameras, we are exposed to new instances of "police behaving badly" on seemingly a daily basis, if not certainly weekly. In many of these instances there's a gaggle of supposedly "not bad" apples standing around watching the bad apples do bad apple things.

My limited but not inconsequential background of observing individual and group dynamics has left a long standing belief that individuals will not typically act in a manner that their peer group would not approve of, at least when they are among that peer group.

Which informs my second observation...

In certain, egregious cases of "bad apples acting badly", they worst of behavior is generally recorded on video cameras that the police know full well are recording, but expect that the videos will always remain "in house". Things like police station security cameras, dash cams and body cams. In many of these cases I've seen people ponder how any cop could "be so stupid" to do X or Y when they know that they are being recorded, but I think that' the wrong question. I think the question should be, what kind of "corporate culture" creates and environment where the officer's in question know they are being recorded, but don't care.

My opinion, is of course, worth what you paid for it.

[RichL025]

One thing I'm not sure people noticed... this incident happened OVER A MONTH ago...

The only reason there was a public hue and cry was because a news station got a copy of the bodycam footage....

How often do you guys think this happened BEFORE bodycams? What about agencies that do not have them?

[Badger52]

One thing I'm not sure people noticed... this incident happened OVER A MONTH ago...

The only reason there was a public hue and cry was because a news station got a copy of the bodycam footage....

How often do you guys think this happened BEFORE bodycams? What about agencies that do not have them?I suspect quite a few have noticed. The footage (from at least 2 different cams) was apparently released by her attorney. Imagine it takes awhile to get that from the department. Paperwork with fancy names & stuff.

The answer to your question is in the body-cam footage - all the time, probably. The problem in this instance is someone didn't roll-over & did the right thing. To be fair, I've also heard there are plenty of instances where the body-cam saved an officer's butt from some allegation-slinging dirtbag.

[RichL025]

To be fair, I've also heard there are plenty of instances where the body-cam saved an officer's butt from some allegation-slinging dirtbag.

Absolutely! Thats why I think it is a win-win proposition - protect decent cops from spurious accusations and protect the public from power-hungry Cartman's with a badge.... "You must respect my authori-tay!"

[Badger52]

Absolutely! Thats why I think it is a win-win proposition - protect decent cops from spurious accusations and protect the public from power-hungry Cartman's with a badge.... "You must respect my authori-tay!"We'll see. Looks like SLC has decided to rope-in some add'l help: (http://fox13now.com/2017/09/07/salt-lake-county-da-requests-fbi-assistance-in-nurse-alex-wubbels-investigation/)

SALT LAKE CITY -- Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill has requested the FBI's assistance in the investigation into the arrest of a Utah nurse who refused to allow a blood draw from an unconscious patient without following proper procedure.

In a statement released Thursday, Gill said his office officially requested the FBI investigate: "any and all individuals involved in the chain of conduct arising from the incident at the University of Utah Hospital on July 26, 2017 for any Civil Rights Violations under the color of authority."

Gill said he requested the FBI's help due to events beyond a mere criminal investigation.

“There continue to be issues that go beyond merely a criminal investigation, and, in an effort to address those concerns, the Salt Lake County District Attorney’s Office has formally asked for assistance from our Federal law enforcement partners to fully vet issues only they can investigate,” Gill stated. “The decision for this was arrived over the Labor Day weekend and a formal letter requesting this assistance was sent out Sept. 6, 2017."

The FBI in Salt Lake City sent Fox 13 this statement Thursday: "The FBI opened a civil rights/color of law review of the matter when we found out about it in the media. Sim Gill has also asked for our assistance which we will provide."Hopefully they don't move at the same speed as Congressional inquiries into (fill-in your least favorite Obama-era debacle).

[Animal8526]

Absolutely! Thats why I think it is a win-win proposition - protect decent cops from spurious accusations and protect the public from power-hungry Cartman's with a badge.... "You must respect my authori-tay!"

Absolutely. I am hugely suspicious of any police organization that opposes body cams for the reasons stated.

[Badger52]

Detective fired; his supervisor LT demoted to Officer.
LINK here. (http://abc7chicago.com/utah-police-officer-who-handcuffed-dragged-nurse-in-video-fired/2517160/)

SALT LAKE CITY --
A Utah police officer who was caught on video roughly handcuffing a nurse because she refused to allow a blood draw was fired Tuesday in a case that became a flashpoint in the ongoing national conversation about police use of force.

Salt Lake City Police Chief Mike Brown made the decision after an internal investigation found evidence Detective Jeff Payne violated department policies when he arrested nurse Alex Wubbels and dragged her out of the hospital as she screamed on July 26, said Sgt. Brandon Shearer, a spokesman for the department.

Attorney Greg Skordas has said Payne served the department well for nearly three decades and questioned whether his behavior warranted termination. He couldn't immediately be reached for comment Tuesday.

Payne's supervisor, Lt. James Tracy, was also demoted to officer. His lawyer, Ed Brass, couldn't immediately be reached for comment.

[bblhead672]

Detective fired; his supervisor LT demoted to Officer.
LINK here. (http://abc7chicago.com/utah-police-officer-who-handcuffed-dragged-nurse-in-video-fired/2517160/)

The lieutenant gave the order/approval for the detective's actions, he should have been fired as well instead of demoted.

[Sohei]

The lieutenant gave the order/approval for the detective's actions, he should have been fired as well instead of demoted.

Yep...the only one worse than the guy breaking the law is the one that gave him the order to do so. They should suffer the same fate.

[Badger52]

Yep...the only one worse than the guy breaking the law is the one that gave him the order to do so. They should suffer the same fate.Never know; there are still criminal charges possible, although that may be to a certain extent up to the victim. This action is simply embarrassed-employer/embarrassing-employee stuff. IANAL so don't know if there are certain things a DA has to prosecute on behalf of the people (whether the victim prefers it or not) or how much discretion they have. I imagine the nurse gets to weigh-in; whether the usual sacrificial lamb slide show is sufficient remains to be seen. Just like Hollyweird or DC, no one's "appalled" until they get caught.

[Badger52]

$500K settlement reached.
LINK here. (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/01/utah-nurse-reaches-500g-settlement-over-violent-arrest-after-blocking-cop.html)

And the appeals are in progress for those in the "you were too mad at me, you should only be a little bit mad at me" category.
From the detective:
Payne is appealing that decision, saying the firing was an unfair reaction to the negative publicity. (Uh, publicity caused by...?)
The demoted supervisor says his superiors never told him of the (joint hospital/PD) policy that was produced in hardcopy for the officers in the ER. Sounds like routine lawyer/union/management stuff.

Sounds like the nurse has some productive moving on & goals in the hopper for her portion of the settlement and that's a good thing. Drive on.
:cool: