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View Full Version : Iron sights vs Scope


Brush Okie
06-26-2017, 17:52
Today I decided to get a 25m zero on my M1a Loaded. I will check longer ranges later but no place close today. I first got a Zero with the iron sights. GTG. I attached the scope, made it tight etc. Got a zero no problem. Funny thing is my iron sight groups were a little tighter than the scope. :eek: I am chalking it up to at 25m the scope is a little fuzzy ie parallax is off.

I do like the sights of the M1 Grand/ M-1A wish my AR was built with them.

Peregrino
06-26-2017, 19:29
You mean people actually zero scoped rifles at pistol engagement ranges?

Whodathunk? :munchin

frostfire
06-27-2017, 09:20
: I am chalking it up to at 25m the scope is a little fuzzy ie parallax is off.



That and was your scope set to the lowest magnification setting and ocular focus still set to crisp crosshair?
When master Rick had me do zeroing drill at 100, he kept it at no higher than 10x
Bigger magnification makes you see more of your wobble zone and that visual feedback likely mess with your trigger pull and introduce all kinds of involuntary muscle tension all over as one subconsciously try to fight that wobble.

With iron sights, we cant see that natural/acceptable wobble from heart beat and so we dont fight it.

I observe the same when zeroing my AK w irons vs dot.
I always get tighter group w irons.

Team Sergeant
06-27-2017, 19:29
You mean people actually zero scoped rifles at pistol engagement ranges?

Whodathunk? :munchin

yeah, you beat me to it.


I would not zero a rifle under 200m with a scope.

That said I have shot at 25m with a "newly" scoped rifle, just to get it on tgt.

Peregrino
06-27-2017, 20:08
yeah, you beat me to it.


I would not zero a rifle under 200m with a scope.

That said I have shot at 25m with a "newly" scoped rifle, just to get it on tgt.


Yeah - but that's not zeroing. Hell, back when I used to shoot Hi-power I zeroed iron sights at 200 yds (not meters). Nothing special about it either; that's what everybody did/does. It makes a world of difference shooting "across the course".

BO - In all seriousness there are a lot of reasons for the problem you've identified. FF hit on some of them, others include issues mounting scopes on M14s/M1As and the quality of the scope. Take it back out to a longer range and see what it'll do at 200 (or further - NMT 600 though) and you might be pleasantly surprised at it's "practical" accuracy. Just don't expect it to shoot .5 MOA groups. Very few M14s/M1As can achieve the accuracy of an AR or bolt gun and it's a fair amount of work to keep them shooting better than 1.5 MOA.

Brush Okie
06-27-2017, 20:30
Yeah - but that's not zeroing. Hell, back when I used to shoot Hi-power I zeroed iron sights at 200 yds (not meters). Nothing special about it either; that's what everybody did/does. It makes a world of difference shooting "across the course".

BO - In all seriousness there are a lot of reasons for the problem you've identified. FF hit on some of them, others include issues mounting scopes on M14s/M1As and the quality of the scope. Take it back out to a longer range and see what it'll do at 200 (or further - NMT 600 though) and you might be pleasantly surprised at it's "practical" accuracy. Just don't expect it to shoot .5 MOA groups. Very few M14s/M1As can achieve the accuracy of an AR or bolt gun and it's a fair amount of work to keep them shooting better than 1.5 MOA.

Yes I am happy with 1.5 MOA with my M1A hits anything I need to hit with it in practical ranges. I have a bolt gun that will hold 1/4 MOA or less all day long. But it was not cheap and had a long wait. I had just put the scpe on there and wanted to get it close.

I was limited on time and space. Went out to shoot at my usual range area and it has been closed off probably due to shit heads not picking up their trash. I settled for a 25M zero for now until I can make it over to another range with longer area. I prefer a 200 yd zero on my rifles unless I KNOW I will be shooting farther. Thanks for the feedback.

G2squared
06-30-2017, 13:43
Something else to consider is the scope mount you are using for your M1A. I have one and it REALLY LIKES S&B 168gr BTHP ammo. With irons I was holding 2.0" at 300yrds with 5 rd groups. FGMM was only doing 4" groups. So I thought I'd make it a sweet scoped setup. The action in an M1A is a tough, reliable and battle proven setup. But it hits hard and puts a lot of force beating up scopes and their mounts and moving them around a lot. I had mine epoxied in place, no more quick detach, and accuracy was still less than with irons. After a few hundred rounds it had beaten the epoxy loose and I hadn't caught it. Fortunately my twin brother was shooting it so I laughed at him for not being able to hit anything even from 100yrds! Later we found the issue and haven't had the scope on since.
Talking to others who have M1As they found the same thing. A good scope attachment method is the key and even the ones that work pretty well still will work themselves loose fairly quickly. The ideal way to attach a scope to an M1A is machine the receiver or get a integrated rail on the receiver but that's a few bucks either way you do it.
If what you've got is meeting your needs I'd recommend just checking things to make sure they're still tight periodically.