View Full Version : "Outside" Training courses/ "experience"
JamesIkanov
06-01-2017, 00:33
I have a simple question (at least, I hope it'll be simple)
The short version of the background here is that I've been working myself up to talk to a recruiter about an 18X contract. Still figuring that part out due to some personal concerns. (serious girlfriend, probably going to need at least one waiver, etc etc) but I have some questions before I even get that far. This is just one of them for now, and I can hopefully find the answers to my other questions in due time.
The question proper takes a bit more dissection. For starters, I am and will for the forseeable future continue to be a gun nut. For my own personal benefit and education I'm interested in taking a distance learning course on "Advanced AR-15 Armoring" while I try to get myself in better shape. I just completed my fourth AR15 build, so I figure I might as well learn all the ins and outs instead of just winging it some more. I'm also somewhat interested in taking a pistol course from a pretty good local guy, also for my own personal benefit. I like shooting pistol and I've shot some steel IPSC type matches at a local range a few times. I'm by no means great but I quite like practicing and it's one of the few solid interests I've kept up since I was an anklebiter. It's good fun (except when it's -15F or less, then it's just better than watching the tube).
I have read and heard that many professional/government organizations view applicants seeking out this kind of training as a big red flag. I don't want to be "that guy". Whether I succeed or fail at making it through the 18X pipeline, if I get into it at all, I'm just interested in learning this stuff for me. I'm also a bit concerned because I have had an interest in amateur pyrotechnics and the chemistry of energetic materials.
I know that knowing this stuff is in no way comparable to what the Army would actually want to teach me, but I'm concerned it would muck up my odds by presenting a disqualifying red flag. Does anyone have any insight in to whether having certs or experience related to this stuff beforehand is viewed as a +/- or just not even considered? I'm not planning on mentioning it (I really really want to avoid being "that guy") but I could see it coming up.
I've had similar thoughts about my intention to try to pick up a language (French specifically, due to it's commonality).
Good grief, what a long drawn out question.
Learn what you want before you join but remember - you will be expected to perform as you are taught in the course.
Some instructor tells you how to do something and you reply with "Well, I'm a ......" and your stay might be shorter than you think.
1stindoor
06-01-2017, 05:56
^^James, that's solid advice right there. There's tons of civilian courses that are somewhat aligned with military courses. Try never to tell the military instructors you're "already qualified because..." Perfect example would be civilian skydiver vs MFF, or PADI/MAUI vs CDQC.
But as I'm sure you already know...focus on the 25m target first....enlist and try to pass Basic.
No matter how many guns you built and how much knowledge of guns or explosives (although fun) before you go in will not help at all. They will tell you what they want you to know. At least you are showing an interest in things that will help and most guys want to know..
If you are worried about waivers already you will probably have a difficult time because you may not be able to commit. There will be so many trip wires along the way through basic, AIT and jump school that you need to have a driven focused attitude toward commitment.
Go and see what the recruiter says. After a few tests he might say you should be an officer or something on the enlisted schedule. It s hard to say unless you have some concrete scores down from testing. Then decide your next step.
Until then, don't shoot yourself in the foot.
Get off of your ass and talk to the recruiter. Would/coulda/shoulda don't count for squat, just like all of that weapons training pre-military as it will not help you at all if you do not sign up and make it over all of the hurdles in the real training.
Talk to the recruiter before you do anything else.
Astronomy
06-01-2017, 15:13
Taking firearms training from reputable providers is never a bad thing, but is almost immaterial to your success or failure through the 18MOS pipeline. For an aspiring 18X, it's really not important in the grand scheme of things. Other than providing a very general comfort level with firearms. Something you'll be trained to acquire anyway... if you make it to an ODA. As with personal competence in Martial Arts, while interesting and useful, firearms expertise has little relevance for the task at hand... making it through SFAS/SFQC.
As a long serving former 18B, I assure you that nobody really cares about your kitchen table gunsmithing skills, AR builds, or tactical courses taken. Not unless you are a nationally ranked gunsmith, competitor, or trainer. I can teach a monkey to both wrench on and competently shoot an AR or a handgun.
Taking training from (or hanging out with) wingnuts who are on LEO or Federal Watch Lists is a definite red flag. The military frowns on association with extremist groups of any flavor and the determination of your future security clearance might hang in the balance.
Explosives? Yeah, that's a red flag in terms of associations (unless you have some bona fide current civilian job that involves blasting/demolitions). Again, it's not familiarity with such, it's the likelihood of your getting involved with others who might lead you astray. Try getting a waiver for previous charges involving "hobby" experiments with explosive devices or materials. :rolleyes:
Language? French in particular? Absolutely. SF cross cultural abilities and language skills are critical. If you speak, read, and write in a foreign language (to any degree)... you are well ahead of the power curve. Regardless of current rankings for "demand" languages, French is a perennially valuable one in the SF arena. Used in all kinds of interesting places where we work. Africa. SE Asia. Parts of S. America & Caribbean. Europe. Competent French speakers in SF are typically scarce. Which can lead to some interesting assignments for those who are handy with that language.
Summary:
1. Take whatever firearm courses appeal to you; preferably from well-documented pros. Stay away from anything or anyone that remotely smacks of illegality, military posing, or extremist politics.
2. Stay away from hands-on explosives dabbling. Too many bread crumbs that attract attention from folks like DHS, ATF, etc. Read about it all you want.
3. Learn French. Or any other 2nd language you demonstrate a natural proclivity for.
#3 is actually the most important and useful "outside" skill you could bring to the table.
Last piece of advice: We've all been in relationships, most SF guys are married, and many manage to join the Regiment with a spouse in tow. But it makes it a lot tougher... for both you and her. Figure out what "serious girlfriend" really means. 'Cause if ever there's a time in your life for being solo, it's while attempting the SF Pipeline. If you love her and mean to marry her, then decide that, act on it, and try the 18X route anyway. A strong & supportive fiancee or wife can hold things down while you make the attempt.
But there is no room (zero) for SFAS/SFQC candidates with less than rock solid relationships. If your personal life isn't in order, it's no place for you.
It's not a game, you are expected to have your shit together and your mind focused. There ain't no time for long distance girlfriend drama. Nor will any previous civilian firearms/demo "experience" count for anything while in the pipeline. Language skills might (in terms of preferential future Group assignment).
2. Stay away from hands-on explosives dabbling. Too many bread crumbs that attract attention from folks like DHS, ATF, etc. Read about it all you want.
This is good advise. have you ever been arrested or detained because of your curiosity?
If so it could directly effect your security clearance screening for many jobs not just SF.
Team Sergeant
06-01-2017, 23:35
I stopped reading at "serious girlfriend".........
We are at war. Its time to decide what your priorities are.....
"I stopped reading at "serious girlfriend"........."
Well, the Q Course has been known to cure a lot of "serious girlfriend" back home issues.
As well as new wife at her first Army Post.
Ya' gotta' live it to love it and love it to live it.
JamesIkanov
06-02-2017, 13:43
I've never been arrested or detained for that. I've mostly read as much material as I can find, and have been doing so for several years. Other than that, I have a singular speeding ticket. I have carefully avoided wingnuts. Hopefully no one thinks I'm a wingnut :rolleyes:
As for the girlfriend.... It's a personal thing. I'm going to keep physically preparing, and in the meantime hopefully can sort out some logistics and details with her. She has her own plans and I in no way see my relationship with her as a zero sum game for what I'm planning out here, but I can understand the concern that that statement probably brings out.
I'm not going to go on a rant but I'm aware of what's going on in the world and I don't like it. I want to do this because it seems like one of the few things that might really make a difference. For now I'm just trying to figure out what's worth pursuing in the immediate future, and what could fuck up my chances in what will probably be at least a few months. I'm fine with taking my time to get there as long as I actually get
there.The french seems like a win/win, so for now I'll just focus on that and my own physical fitness. I really appreciate the advice.
TrapperFrank
06-03-2017, 12:18
Keep focused on the 25M target, first things first. Sit down with the recruiter, see if you even qualify for a waiver. Take it from a former recruiter, not all waivers are worth doing. Then if you are pre-qualified, take the ASVAB.
OP, it wasn't an issue for me, for what its worth. The SORB recruiter said to include hobbies in the packet's essay, mine is shooting. I have taken a number of courses and went into a little detail about them, mostly selling the point that a five-day course had a wide variety of personnel in attendance to include foreign SOF and police. My packet was accepted, so I can't imagine anyone on the board was overly concerned about it. And it won't hurt to be familiar with the technical aspects of with the M4, as long as you don't try to flaunt that knowledge. No one is going to care that much.
craigepo
06-16-2017, 07:49
"I stopped reading at "serious girlfriend"........."
Well, the Q Course has been known to cure a lot of "serious girlfriend" back home issues.
As well as new wife at her first Army Post.
Ya' gotta' live it to love it and love it to live it.
I'm sure things have changed, but I remember the SFAS cadre as being fond of stating that the only things you needed to attend Selection were an SF Physical and a copy of your divorce decree.
JamesIkanov
07-09-2017, 20:06
Follow up question:
can someone direct me to the current recommended workout for pre-SFAS? I've searched around, and it seems that the current workout is THOR, but I can't find an actual explanation of WTF that means or where to find even a description of it. :confused:
in the meantime I'm still doing some exercises, but I can tell I need to go harder and faster. I'm very lucky to know or at least have contact with current and former SF out in meat space. Mostly a former PJ who later did some OGA work whom I've had the privilege of getting to know very well. Based on some of the longer conversations I've had with the PJ it seems as though the primary aspect of my prep should be rucking, rucking, rucking and focusing on refusing to quit no matter how crazy shit gets. Based on what I've read, I know I need to be doing more upper body strength stuff, which is what I seem to be struggling with so far.
I've got some of my own oddball ideas about exercises, but I know enough to know I don't know enough and I'm hoping someone has a clear reference or some suggested reading on the subject. I've heard people drop "Get Selected" and another book on general fitness and exercise techniques focused on MIL/LE, the name of which is escaping me, but if there's a free and actually recommended exercise plan I'd rather start from there and adapt.
geardo211
07-18-2017, 04:45
Judging by how many we reclass to tank mechanics and cooks before they even leave Sand Hill, I'd recommend Push-Ups Sit-Ups and the 2-Mile Run. If you can't get a 240 on the APFT your Selection dreams are going to end before they start. The Army Recruiter is just filling a vacant 18X slot.
WarriorDiplomat
07-28-2017, 08:05
Follow up question:
can someone direct me to the current recommended workout for pre-SFAS? I've searched around, and it seems that the current workout is THOR, but I can't find an actual explanation of WTF that means or where to find even a description of it. :confused:
in the meantime I'm still doing some exercises, but I can tell I need to go harder and faster. I'm very lucky to know or at least have contact with current and former SF out in meat space. Mostly a former PJ who later did some OGA work whom I've had the privilege of getting to know very well. Based on some of the longer conversations I've had with the PJ it seems as though the primary aspect of my prep should be rucking, rucking, rucking and focusing on refusing to quit no matter how crazy shit gets. Based on what I've read, I know I need to be doing more upper body strength stuff, which is what I seem to be struggling with so far.
I've got some of my own oddball ideas about exercises, but I know enough to know I don't know enough and I'm hoping someone has a clear reference or some suggested reading on the subject. I've heard people drop "Get Selected" and another book on general fitness and exercise techniques focused on MIL/LE, the name of which is escaping me, but if there's a free and actually recommended exercise plan I'd rather start from there and adapt.
Well James character is revealed not created by any fancy workout or G2 to give yourself an edge....
All I did was ruck, run, pushups, situps and pullups the rest was me grabbing my nuts lie a man and giving it my best......all the fancy workouts and advice from GB's will not make you a GB these guys can give you the answer to the test you still have to do it.....
IMO the fact that so many young candidates come on here G2'ng the training with each other shows a character flaw and a lack of understanding of why it is important to let people go through the process alone.....Even when you get to a team your actions will be your own.
It is disheartening the constant gaming of the course no wonder the community is lacking
For those that are REALLY serious about getting in the kind of shape that you REALLY need to be in if you are going to be an operator, I recommend watching this instructional video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XlH7as17tc
Once you have mastered the basics, you should start crossfitting two or three times a day like it is your fucking job! Only then will you have what it takes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyil4IGAvVs
JamesIkanov
12-23-2018, 23:30
I can appreciate the humor, at least :D I'm not trying to game anything. Life has taught me through repeated experience that it's harder when you're dumb, and failure to plan is a good example of being dumb. I'm not looking for the super secret course grading rubric or something. I really just want some advice on how to work out. There's an incredible pool of conflicting information out there. "Work out everyday" versus "give your muscles time to rest". "workout recovery is all genetic" or "it's all about diet, sleep, massage and lactic acid". I'm really kind of starting from square one. I've been an unabashed life long couch potato (albeit not a fat body) that breaks up periods of sitting down doing nothing with very long walks with a big heavy backpack. That's not to brag, I just know the pain of going from literally zero physical build up to a 12 mile hike with a 45+ pound bag, and I'm not keen on repeating it. I just have no reference point for where to start.
Maybe I missed some recommended reading, maybe the link is dead, maybe I'm dumber than I think I am. I'd just like to get a better idea of where to start, or at this point, where to continue from and how to improve.
Been almost 1 1/2 years between your last two posts on this thread.
While waiting for advice what have you been doing to get in shape?
You going to shit and get of the pot or just sit there?
miclo18d
12-24-2018, 05:09
I can appreciate the humor, at least :D I'm not trying to game anything. Life has taught me through repeated experience that it's harder when you're dumb, and failure to plan is a good example of being dumb. I'm not looking for the super secret course grading rubric or something. I really just want some advice on how to work out. There's an incredible pool of conflicting information out there. "Work out everyday" versus "give your muscles time to rest". "workout recovery is all genetic" or "it's all about diet, sleep, massage and lactic acid". I'm really kind of starting from square one. I've been an unabashed life long couch potato (albeit not a fat body) that breaks up periods of sitting down doing nothing with very long walks with a big heavy backpack. That's not to brag, I just know the pain of going from literally zero physical build up to a 12 mile hike with a 45+ pound bag, and I'm not keen on repeating it. I just have no reference point for where to start.
Maybe I missed some recommended reading, maybe the link is dead, maybe I'm dumber than I think I am. I'd just like to get a better idea of where to start, or at this point, where to continue from and how to improve.
Analysis Paralysis
Just go run as far and as fast as you can. Rest until your muscles aren’t sore. Repeat. That’s the simple version, you can figure out the rest. In 1988, when I joined there was no internet. I had a brochure from the recruiter that showed soldiers running in boots. I bought boots and started running in them. The joke was on me as they no longer ran in boots in the military for PT. You have the internet and you can’t find ANYTHING? You may not be SF material based on that alone.
Perfection is the enemy of good.
You seem to be looking for perfection, which is unachievable, instead of getting started with good and building on that.
tom kelly
12-24-2018, 14:09
I can appreciate the humor, at least :D I'm not trying to game anything. Life has taught me through repeated experience that it's harder when you're dumb, and failure to plan is a good example of being dumb. I'm not looking for the super secret course grading rubric or something. I really just want some advice on how to work out. There's an incredible pool of conflicting information out there. "Work out everyday" versus "give your muscles time to rest". "workout recovery is all genetic" or "it's all about diet, sleep, massage and lactic acid". I'm really kind of starting from square one. I've been an unabashed life long couch potato (albeit not a fat body) that breaks up periods of sitting down doing nothing with very long walks with a big heavy backpack. That's not to brag, I just know the pain of going from literally zero physical build up to a 12 mile hike with a 45+ pound bag, and I'm not keen on repeating it. I just have no reference point for where to start.
Maybe I missed some recommended reading, maybe the link is dead, maybe I'm dumber than I think I am. I'd just like to get a better idea of where to start, or at this point, where to continue from and how to improve.
James, Stay Warm and Train as you think you will have to FIGHT, to save your life....tom kelly
JamesIkanov
12-24-2018, 16:22
Analysis Paralysis
You have the internet and you can’t find ANYTHING?
I've found a lot. Just nothing particularly useful. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, maybe what I'm looking for doesn't exist. I'm just trying to find best practices, or at least some guidelines. I can work with what you've given me, but I'm annoying and I like to know why things work, not just how.
I can't figure out how to post multiple quotes, but I'm a full time college student for financial reasons, free gym, and language electives. As I see it, I have all the time in the world. I obviously have to get to where I'm going eventually, but I'd rather take my time over fucking it up fast. I was on a DIY program for a while but was hospitalized for meningitis during the last year and I never really got back on it. I lost a few months of progress in about a week and a half of being unable to effectively eat or hydrate and running a fever, and it was more than a little discouraging.
I've done all kinds of non-fitness stuff. But I know I am lacking some of the fitness I will need, and that is why I'm here, re-addressing the question.
....As I see it, I have all the time in the world. I obviously have to get to where I'm going eventually, but I'd rather take my time over fucking it up fast. ....
You don't have as much time as you think you do.
As I noted it was almost 1 1/2 years since your last exchange.
One day you'll suddenly notice it's too late.
The search button should become your friend if you're serious.
TrapperFrank
12-25-2018, 17:16
With all due respect, make up your fuckin' mind, either shit or get off the pot. Go see a recruiter and take the ASVAB. See if you even qualify for an 18X billet. You have wasted over 1 1/2 years of your life mentally masturbating over the question, "Should I join or not?" I went through the SFQC in 1980 at 21 years of age. It is my understanding that the SFQC has not gotten any easier. You could have gotten in shape to compete in the Olympic Games by this point.
turboprop
12-25-2018, 21:17
Here (https://goarmysof.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/SFAS-PREP-14-WEEK.pdf). I googled "SFAS training plan.'' It was the first thing that came up.
If you don't want to make up your own strength portion you can scroll down to the bottom of the page and look at this (http://specialforcesrecruiter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/THOR3-10-Week-Program.pdf). It includes the strength stuff and the runs/rucks.
Merry Christmas.
As it's been said that stuff doesn't really matter for you. Being generally in shape is a must-you have to do basic training etc before anything SF related. Grinding it out on your own to be ready to SFAS before you depart wouldn't do much more than bum you out when you get off that bus and find out you'll be hanging out at 30th AG in a bay full of lepers for two weeks before basic starts.
You're asking for the study sheet for a 3000-level course before taking the SAT. It's just not relevant to you right now. Unless things have seriously changed, you'll get plenty of prep with a rucksack in the 18X pipeline.
If you are waiting because you are going to finish college first, great, do that. If you're waiting because you "need" this information, you're wasting your time-which is your most valuable commodity.
JamesIkanov
12-26-2018, 04:16
If you are waiting because you are going to finish college first, great, do that. If you're waiting because you "need" this information, you're wasting your time-which is your most valuable commodity.
I'm planning on finishing college first. I'm not waiting for much of anything. I'd go so far as to say I've spent my time fairly wisely. I haven't sat on my ass for a year and a half. I just know I'm still lacking some fitness and I was hoping for some guidance. If the guidance is to sort it out yourself.... Noted. Will do.
I appreciate the replies. The last thing I want to do is waste time. Other users here, or mine. My hiatus was partly based on the realization that my time on this board was becoming more about my time on this board than progress.
........ My hiatus was partly based on the realization that my time on this board was becoming more about my time on this board than progress.
Wrong-oh, buttercup. Your hiatus was because of you. Don't try some half ass attempt to turn it on us.
You have been told where the information is and one of us even posted links. If you've read everything about SFAS on this board instead of just your posts and our replies to them you'll know we don't spoon feed anybody. If that's too difficult for you and you still think it's our fault - then maybe SF isn't for you.
Let us know when you get your 18X contract
Astronomy
12-29-2018, 11:10
After a year and a half...
1) If you haven't chased down the answers to your original questions, you likely never will.
2) If you're "still lacking some physical fitness", you're likely not SF material.
People who achieve this kind of goal are relentless in that pursuit. All the preparatory information you might need is widely available in the public domain (books, guides, videos, official school standards, memoirs, interviews, discussion forums, etc.). And every bit of that insider knowledge is worthless unless you are actually putting it into daily practice.
By now, you should be a PT monster and an effortless endurance athlete (with a good college GPA.) Able to knock out the officially published minimal physical standards on your worst day (drunk, hungover, sick, pregnant, meningitis, whatever...). Minimum standards shouldn't even be in your vocabulary. You should already be far past minimums.
Many of us went into the SF recruiting pipeline with 99% less advice and guidance than you'll find searching just this board. Never mind today's readily available physical prep guides for SF Selection. Like lab rats placed in a maze, we were expected to figure out our own path in an unclear endeavor... and gut our way through. And to arrive self-prepped for meeting all challenges on Day 1.
Your very next post should be a brutally honest & detailed breakdown of what your current PT program looks like. What you actually accomplish on a daily/weekly basis. Somebody might give you some pointers or suggestions for improvement weighed against that data. Absent that, you're just wasting your time and ours.
Attempting SF Selection & the SFQC is about walking the walk, not talking the talk. Yoda's admonishment applies here: "Do or Do Not. There is no Try."
Or, as my brother QP Pete already asked: "You going to shit and get of the pot or just sit there?"