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The Reaper
04-17-2017, 17:49
I know we have touched on this in other threads, but things may have changed, or someone has a new opinion.

For this scenario, let’s say you have to hit the road (on foot), alone, in ten minutes. You need to be prepared to move at least 100 miles cross country to an alternate safe site / Bug Out Location you have access to. Hopefully, you have your Second Line (carriage) and Third Line (ruck) packed and ready to go, though we could discuss what we have in them as well. Your safe and ammo better be easily accessible. Assume that there will be two-and four-legged predators looking for you along the way. You will be by yourself for this movement, assume that others will meet you at the bug-out location and you will not encounter friendlies en route. Avoiding contact would be the best plan.

The primary issue for discussion here is what weapons you would select to bring with you.

Accessories, optics, slings, holsters, lights, spare mags, ammo, etc., should be listed as well, and their weight added to the total.

Remember that weapons and ammo are heavy. Ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain. Good slings and holsters make the load more manageable, but 100 pounds of lightweight gear still weighs 100 pounds. If we assume that your ruck should weigh no more than 45 pounds loaded, with water, and your second line gear (minus armor, weapons and ammo) weighs ten (plus any water carried on it), you probably would not want to add much more than 25 pounds of guns and ammo, in total, if you want to be able to move. Eighty pounds is a lot of weight for someone not accustomed to carrying it, and if you have not practiced with carrying the weight over distances, cross-country, you might want to give it a try before you decide to bring your Barrett M-82 and 1000 rounds.

What you have is what you have, minus water and food you might acquire along the way, no caches or friendlies to resupply from, though en route caches might be a good discussion for another thread.

Rifle: Lightweight Bravo Company M-4 variant, 5.56
Trijicon ACOG TA-31 and LaRue mount
AN/PVS-14
Surefire X300
VCAS sling
Seven loaded 30 round mags
Spare batteries
16 lbs.

Pistol: Glock 19, Gen 4, with night sights, 9x19
One loaded fifteen round mag and two 17 round mags with +2 base pads
Strong side holster (still searching for the perfect one)
Surefire pressure switch for X200
3.5 lbs.

Rimfire pistol: Ruger .22/45, Mk 3, .22 LR
SilencerCo Sparrow SS suppressor
Three ten-round mags of .22 LR Standard Velocity, loaded, and 100 spare rounds
Holster (still searching for the perfect one)
4 lbs.

Could you dispense with one of the weapons, like the long gun, a pistol, or maybe the rifle and a pistol, counting on speed for security? The answer might depend on what you have at your BOL for replacement firearms.

What is your firearms load out for this scenario?

TR

frostfire
04-18-2017, 04:05
100 miles

Avoiding contact would be the best plan.

Ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain.

Those are the criteria that stood out the most for me. So 7.62x39 PDW is out :D
In my thought process E&E with concealment is best. Not going to do any ambushes, shoot though wall/woods, etc.

Integrally suppressed UDP-9 (support local business :) ) with Holosun Microdot ACSS
Glock 19 9mm with cowitnessed Vortex Venom, AAC Ti Rant
Both platforms share same mags:
4 15 rds mag
2 17 rds mag with extension
2 34 rds mag
Spare 200 rds Gold Dot and 100 rds Remington Subsonic HT
A solid zero/range card (don't laugh) for both from 10 to 200 yards.

Or just a Glock 17 with this
https://gun.deals/product/caa-micro-roni-glock-17-pistol-carbine-conversion-kit-w-folding-stock-199-shipped-add-cart

Go Devil
04-18-2017, 04:52
I agree with Frostfire on E&E being the prominent consideration when shaping this load out.

In my area, moving by day is not a reasonable option and moving at night would dictate movement along field borders and unlit areas. This will drastically extend the time to cover the distance and force me to be as small as possible.

Time of departure is also a factor that influences what I carry.

Daylight:
I'm pulling the HK USP Compact .45 with Trijicon Tritim sights and 4, eight round magazines. OWB holster of my own design. (Complete kit, approximately 7 lbs)

Night:
Daylight load plus 5.56 M4 with Trijicon ACOG, TAG single point sling, and 6, thirty round magazines.
M4 disassembled and placed in inconspicuous backpack with mags. (Approximately 14 lbs) Total, 21lbs

Avoiding contact and being inconspicuous is paramount.
I can't outrun a radio and engaging a superiorly armed force would halt progress and most likely lead to being bracketed.

Flagg
04-18-2017, 05:02
Good stuff!

I've had to bug out(earthquake/tsunami false alarms as recently as 6 months ago).

But we have BoBs that get thrown in vehicles leaving in a packet in <10 minutes, usually 5 or so(we've had enough practice!)

On foot would anyone consider the following:

Fewer mags(maybe just 5) but more loose rounds packed away?

A takedown .22lr rifle instead of .22lr pistol?

A different optic, 2-7 maybe?

TI units are getting quite affordable.

BryanK
04-18-2017, 05:11
Another great topic. I don't have too many choices, but I'd have to say I'd bring my M4gery(stock) with irons and 6 loaded mags, M9 with 4 magazines riding on a chest rig, my 870 magnum with 50 rounds(5 riding a saddle), and a few extra rounds stored in the ruck. I'm unsure of the combined weight.

It really was a toss-up between bringing my .22 magnum Marlin bolt action VS my 870. The report from the .22 is too loud to use discreetly, so I figured I may as well bring the bear slayer along just in case with an assortment of rounds for both hunting and defense.

Streck-Fu
04-18-2017, 06:36
.......you might want to give it a try before you decide to bring your Barrett M-82 and 1000 rounds.



So no Toyota or Jeep based technicals allowed..... :(

I can't carry 80lbs so my gear would limited to only the essentials but will include a couple nalgene bottles of water and a few cliff bars. It would take a few to 5 days to cover the distance so taking an energy source is necessary as I can't count acquiring food enrout (maybe some squirrels and birds).

Rifle: I would take my AR M4gery and currently mounted Bushnell AR223 scope but limit magazines to no more than 4 or 5 plus batteries for the mounted Surefire 6P. 11-12lbs.

Handgun: Sig P226 with Streamlight TLR-1 HL and 3x18rd magazines in Safariland 6378. Shares batteries with 6P so same spares for both.

I would choose to skip a .22 and don't own any suppressors or NVG. I would carry NVG first is available.

Oldrotorhead
04-18-2017, 07:45
I'm old and slow, and the weight I could carry is a bit more limited due to health reasons. if I were to pick from the three weapons listed I would leave the G-19 and possibly add another 100 rounds of .22. The .22 can help feed you in most environments. Pigeons and tree rats at least in urban areas, more options in rural areas. I'd easily trade the G-19 for a life straw and a few protean bars.

JJ_BPK
04-18-2017, 10:39
I'm old and slow, and the weight I could carry is a bit more limited due to health reasons. if I were to pick from the three weapons listed I would leave the G-19 and possibly add another 100 rounds of .22. The .22 can help feed you in most environments. Pigeons and tree rats at least in urban areas, more options in rural areas. I'd easily trade the G-19 for a life straw and a few protean bars.

As I also fall(no pun) into the FOG category..

If I'm walking,, my destination better be a fully stock arms room & cache..

I would hump a Ruger Charger (SBR'd) and Glock 19, w/cans. Three hi-cap mags each, plus box ammo.

Example (not mine, I would use a 4x fixed scope and interchangeable Trijicon RMR type)

TOMAHAWK9521
04-18-2017, 11:48
My new A/O in ID is rugged country with mountains, rivers, lakes and reservoirs, full of fish and game, but also black bears, wolves and grizzlies. Living in grizzly country is new to me so I'm still tailoring out a new load out plan for this region. As for my initial thought for firearms, long range shots with optics can be limited in heavy timber (I learned that in CO) so for a rifle I'm thinking my Marlin 45-70 lever gun with iron sights. It's relatively compact and good for all critters, 2 and 4-legged, small and grizzly-sized, for medium to close range.

Sidearms: Either HK USP .45 or Springfield XD .460 Rowland and a suppressed .22.

Brush Okie
04-18-2017, 12:10
My Colt LE 6920 m-4 with iron sight and Leopold 1-4x scope
7 full mags
My home made sling
Ruger mkII bull barrel suppressed 2 spare mags
200 rounds of target/subsonic ammo
The pistol would be carried in a shoulder holder. I have not found the perfect one yet
The 22 would be primary weapon for hunting or taking someone out if I had to since the key is E&E. The M4 is if I have no choice but to fight.

Badger52
04-18-2017, 12:46
Thanks TR for the thread. It's interesting to re-think this & see what brain cells might've shifted since the last time I gave this some thought. (Also this FOG is not hauling as much either but, forgetting weapons, the thought of needing to make deliberate movement in an E&E scenario drives quite a bit.)

A "long" gun for me would actually be a mutt AK 7.62 I have that I've had for quite awhile. Some will decry it but I've actually moved in the woods alot with this thing to the point that it's an old friend. Incredibly convenient with its DDR folding stock and a T1 clone atop its railed gas tube, birdcage flash suppressor & a collection of proven mags. The dot is small enough to do adequate honest work from field positions out to 250-300; plenty for my environs. Not for everyone but it's like a favorite pair of jeans at this point.

My G19 would go for the same "old friend' reason; 15+1 and a couple of spare G17 mags with the OEM +2 baseplate (they're not all created equal). It gets carried in a modified M7-pattern (add cross-strap, ditch belt loop) leather rig made sometime way back by El Paso Saddlery specific to that frame. It's NOT a high-speed cool pick to the gun but it comes to hand easily, carries wonderfully and, no matter what I have to drop, it's ON me.

The part I've been mulling about is simply stashing my Ruger Mk.II w/couple spare mags & some spare change rounds in the ruck, but have lately been thinking hard about swapping it & a safe queen for the Mk.III 22/45 and suppressing that. In my neck of the woods a person can feed themselves pretty good with a .22 if needed & a suppressed version is a useful hammer as well. Headed now to the search engine; someone's surely written the good/bad/ugly RE suppressors for Mk.III's.

Thanks again.

Penn
04-18-2017, 13:33
Goal is to reach safe site
100 miles cross country - Bug Out Location you have access to - alone - Avoiding contact would be the best plan.

GR1 Ruck with hydration system 2lbs 9 oz
3 qts water 6 lbs
Mil spec Compass 5 oz
Sea to Summit nylon poncho 8 oz
Mil poncho liner 1 lbs 4oz
30 Gator chews 30g @=900= 1 lbs 9 oz
1 blt wolf urine 12 oz
1 blt Shunk Spray 12 oz
Glock 21/14 rounds 2 lbs 5 oz
Vanguard 8x22 Binos 11.oz

Total weight 15 lbs 2 oz

Golf1echo
04-18-2017, 14:44
Yes, thank you for another scenario.
I'd take a light weight chest rig underneath clothing for my AR, Glock 17 w/ extra mags, and perhaps the BB/pellet gun. An IR or Thermal monocular would be handy to sort out whats ahead as I'm assuming others would be bugging out in an exodus out of this city, so on foot I would be traveling at night.

I would assume the attire of the homeless at least until I got out of the city as they travel with impunity especially at night.

The Reaper
04-18-2017, 17:57
IRT some of the posts thus far.

I love my .45, but I have come to the conclusion that you can get 90% of the performance and twice the round count for half the weight from the 9x19. Blasphemy, sorry!

Stealth would be key in this trip, and you have to sleep sometime. I would try laying up during the day and moving near roads (but not urban areas) at night. 100 miles in most cases will take you through at least one significant elevation change or water crossing. Get a map, compass and protractor, and think / plan ahead.

Night vision would be crucial, especially moving at night. Don’t forget the spare batteries.

Same for suppressors, especially for subsonic rounds, like .22 LR standard velocity or match loads. Not a big fan of the claimed .22 subsonic, they tend to be dirty and inaccurate. You can hunt small game quietly (or suppress noisemakers) without a suppressor by using a .22 rifle and some CB Longs. In 9x19, the 147 gr. subsonic JHP is probably the way to go if you want to run it through a suppressor. The 5.56 is going to be loud, no matter what you hang on it to reduce it's bark. The suppressor will cut the sound considerably, enable you to hear where and what other weapons are being fired, eliminate its muzzle flash, and make it much more difficult to tell what direction the rounds are coming from.

Having said that, anyone who shot my dog would be on a fast track to perdition and I would expend considerable resources to find and repay them.

Not a fan of the .22 Magnums due to ammo cost and blast, and the performance is not what most people think it will do, especially from a pistol.

There is little point in carrying boxed 5.56, as the issued aluminum mags are light enough that they barely weigh more than the boxes, and means you can swap mags and get back to shooting in seconds. No reason to carry a lot of pistol mags, if they are higher capacity, one for the weapon and two spares would seem to be enough to cover lost mags and allow you to stay in the fight. AK mags are heavy, empty or loaded and would be an exception to carrying loaded and not in strippers.

The only real issues I have with magnifying optics is the need to be able to get down to 1x for close-up engagements, and the very poor battery life with the illumination switched on, so limited utility at night. I do like the value of the Primary Arms 1-6x and 1-8x Gen 3s.

We have discussed BoB loads before, here I think you are going to have to count on mostly water and water purification, lightweight food, weather dependent shelter and clothing, first aid, and spare socks. Might be a good idea to empty the BoB seasonally (couple of times per year to check expirations and weather appropriate loadout).

A set of small binos would be a worthy addition, though you can use your magnifying optic for generally the same things.

Not a big fan of adding a shotgun, too much weight, limited utility and range, very heavy ammo. Ten rounds equals a pound, so 50 rounds equals five pounds of pain, pushing your gun and ammo load with two long guns to around 32 pounds. Not much room for anything else.

I concur with the possibility of running this with just a .22 LR pistol or rifle, but you do open yourself up to some gaps.

The AK in 7.62x39 was a temptation to me as well, but for a short duration mission and limited weight, I did not think it would make the cut. I considered the .300 Blackout for its ability to provide near .30-30 and 7.62x39 ballistics for less weight and better accuracy, AR ergonomics, and the ability to switch back and forth with super- and subsonic rounds by changing mags. For a long term foot movement, particularly in an area with big game, close engagement ranges, or large numbers of hostiles.

You do not have to select from my weapons choices, feel free to choose your own.

Just my .02, YMMV.

Let’s keep this going.

TR

Badger52
04-18-2017, 19:13
Great point on the binos. I have some great glass, some really good glass, and some little 8x pocket jobs. These last or a 6x MONocular actually end up being at hand a lot.

frostfire
04-18-2017, 20:13
some little 8x pocket jobs. These last or a 6x MONocular actually end up being at hand a lot.

Concur.
I have used this a lot and can vouch for its practical utility
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-optics-solo-tactical-rt-8x36-tactical-monocular-w-ranging-reticle.html

Anyway, back to firearms...

Penn
04-18-2017, 21:34
TR, if the goal is to reach the RP, why add all the additional weight of long guns and ammo, after all said and done, you are an army of one. Confrontation is the absolute worst outcome.

100 mile run across a known AO with the least resistance in load would seem
prudent, if not essential to completing the movement.

Constant
04-18-2017, 21:56
. As for my initial thought for firearms, long range shots with optics can be limited in heavy timber (I learned that in CO) so for a rifle I'm thinking my Marlin 45-70 lever gun with iron sights. .

I own a Marlin 45-70, use 300 grain and 405 grain in it for elk, deer and bear. Ammo is heavy, and the drop after 100 yards is quite significant. If I were bugging out, it wouldn't be my first choice. However, your 100 miles is different then mine. I just left Japan, I'm in the Midwest now. Heading to Europe for my next assignment. If the balloon went up tonight, I'm already at my BOL. When I'm in Europe, well, crap.

MR2
04-19-2017, 00:10
Urban AO

AR-15 BCM 14.5 P&W w Troy collapsible stock, 28.5" OAL
HaleyStrat wpn light
OSS BPR-27 +6.5" OAL
Magpul multipoint sling
Trig RM08-C w LaRue mount
8.7lb

7 x 32rd DD Mags w 77gr 1.146lb ea
8lb


Ruger SR22P
2 x 15rd mag & 150 rds subsonic
SilencerCo Sparrow SS
No holster yet
2.85lb


Springfield XDm 5.25 9mm nightsights
3 x 19 rd +1 w Hornaday CD
Paddle holster
3.58lb


TerraLUX TT-4
Batteries
3oz


Canon 10x42 L IS
Batteries
2.75lb


Just under 24lb. whew! Drop the 22 or two 32rd mags...

BryanK
04-19-2017, 05:08
Good points TR. After reconsidering, I think Golf1echo's mentioning of a pellet gun is the perfect swap for the heavy/loud 870.

...and perhaps the BB/pellet gun.

Thanks G1e, I had forgotten about my trusty pellet gun and all the weight and sound it saves!

miclo18d
04-19-2017, 05:51
Had a guy show me a Kel-Tec Sub2000. The first thing I thought was how it would fit in a backpack.

I personally am of the notion of never bring a knife to a gunfight and never bring a pistol to a rifle fight. I would still want an AR variant. I'm still a 5.56 fan. My current is a hand built 16" mid length. Good all around. I would lighten my basic load to probably 4 mags.

I too would go with my XdM 5.25, it is a competition gun but would be excellent for engagements with a longer sight radius and slightly better accuracy with the longer barrel.

The idea of a portable .22 survival rifle appeals for small game but for 100 miles, I'm not sure if food is high on my list. Travel light, freeze at night, but get there more quicklier.

This is more about the weapons and I consider pyrotechnics to be in that category. I'm going to carry a few to 3 HC Smokes IOT break contact and if we can carry anything and one could get them, a "drop kick" Claymore™ with time fuse would be on my break contact battle drill list.

Peregrino
04-19-2017, 08:55
My plan's pretty low key. I can't move fast, so I intend to be an "unappetizing" target (not worth the pain to "F" with).

M4gery w/suppressor, 1x6.5 scope, and DBAL I2
9 x PMag w/Mk 262 or equivalent
Still debating the Harris bipod.

XDm 5.25 in 9mm
5 x mags w/Hornaday CD

Ruger 22/45 w/suppressor
3 x mags + 150 .22 LR SV

PVS-14

Bushnell 10 x 40 Fusion 1600 LRF Binos

Battle Belt, Chest Rig, and BoB, contents covered elsewhere.

TFA303
04-19-2017, 10:56
For those of us that have never done this...

What's a realistic time estimate for a trip like this?

The conditions were, (correct me if I'm wrong):
100 miles, solo, on foot, some pursuit necessitating E&E.

Baseline subject could be a man in good shape, say, able to pass the Army PT test, but not Ranger-school fit.

Is 100 miles under those conditions a one-week trip? Three days of intense movement? A month of really stealthy movement?


(All this can't account for say, injuries, or having to spend a night in a tree avoiding trackers. etc. )

Streck-Fu
04-19-2017, 11:10
For those of us that have never done this...

What's a realistic time estimate for a trip like this?

The conditions were, (correct me if I'm wrong):
100 miles, solo, on foot, some pursuit necessitating E&E.


Your terrain will have a great impact on your travel time. Hills, Mountains, forest, desert....

Few of will traverse 100 miles of flat plains in sunny 50 -60 deg weather.

DaveP
04-19-2017, 11:30
Had a guy show me a Kel-Tec Sub2000. The first thing I thought was how it would fit in a backpack.

If re-arming possible at RP, and priority during movement is to avoid contact, this *might* be one instance that a pistol-cal carbine would make sense. Set up to share a suppressor with your sidearm of choice, one caliber to pack, modest but useful range and mag cap increases, able to mount an optic, a bit less weight and easier to conceal than most M4/16s. Not ideal for open country, large quadruped predators, or prolonged persecution. Would require a new purchase for most folks, little incentive if you already run an AR.

I really like looks of the Vortex monocular and reticle; appreciate the suggestion.
DaveP

TJ11B
04-19-2017, 13:24
Primary:
DD MK18 SBR w/ AAC SDN6 Suppressor
Eotech EXPS3
7 loaded PMAGS - 62gr.
Magpul MS4 Sling
Surefire Torch

Secondary:
Glock G34 w/ 3mags
Safariland Paddle Holster

Gear:
M1956-LBE
Alice Rucksack
Poncho
Poncho Liner
3 pairs socks
foot powder
small first aid kit
bug spray
iodine tablets
life straw
headlamp
tent poles
couple pounds homemade deer jerky

Flagg
04-19-2017, 15:31
A couple things:

1)Has anyone seen the takedown AR15 SBRs?

Some videos of a few able to stuffed into a camera bag or vehicle centre console sized cubic volume.

What say you about the value of discretion over reduced long range performance?

Use pistol to fight to long?

2)What does everyone use for water storage/sterilisation/filtration?

I prefer 1 no more than 2 canteens, the rest in a single large bladder with a backup heavy duty rubbish bag.

For water sterilisation, I like my Katadyn portable pump filter.

I own Life Straws and Steripens. The Steripen demands high end batteries for efficacy. For me, I carry the Katadyn and Steripen as backup.

3)Food?

For food I carry long shelf life hugh energy density, small cube snacks.

4)Mini-Bivvy for colder areas/months?

I've used an ultra light mini-bivvy for civvie climbing in NZ and Colorado, ultra light, very small cube. I just leave my gear on bar boots/socks and hop in.

bblhead672
04-19-2017, 15:51
Had a guy show me a Kel-Tec Sub2000. The first thing I thought was how it would fit in a backpack.



The Sub2000 does fit nicely into a backpack/briefcase/etc. Have carried one into places that do not allow a legally concealed or open carried handgun.


Another advantage is the SUB-2000 is available in the following variants, so you can use the same magazines for both carbine and pistol
Smith & Wesson M&P (9mm or .40cal)
Sig Sauer P226 (9mm or .40cal)
Beretta 92 & 96
Glock 17, 19, 22 & 23

Brush Okie
04-19-2017, 15:59
For those of us that have never done this...

What's a realistic time estimate for a trip like this?

The conditions were, (correct me if I'm wrong):
100 miles, solo, on foot, some pursuit necessitating E&E.

Baseline subject could be a man in good shape, say, able to pass the Army PT test, but not Ranger-school fit.

Is 100 miles under those conditions a one-week trip? Three days of intense movement? A month of really stealthy movement?


(All this can't account for say, injuries, or having to spend a night in a tree avoiding trackers. etc. )

Lots of variables.

Lot of people here are more experience than I but here is my opinion.

10 miles a day MAX. Not every day will be MAX. With rest getting food etc around two weeks minimal

A couple of points. The inexperanced start to fast and burn out. Also do not fight the terrain espically mountains you will lose. Learn to pace yourself.

To many variables including weather to say for sure METT-TC but that is my take on it.

TOMAHAWK9521
04-19-2017, 17:39
I own a Marlin 45-70, use 300 grain and 405 grain in it for elk, deer and bear. Ammo is heavy, and the drop after 100 yards is quite significant. If I were bugging out, it wouldn't be my first choice. However, your 100 miles is different then mine. I just left Japan, I'm in the Midwest now. Heading to Europe for my next assignment. If the balloon went up tonight, I'm already at my BOL. When I'm in Europe, well, crap.

My choice did seem counterintuitive but I was thinking of a previous black bear encounter I had as well as most of the documented grizzly encounters and they tend to occur in close proximities and I'd rather stop Yogi's attack instead of just pissing him off.

All that being said, with my current location, I'm better off staying right where I'm at and putting out the near/far recognition signal to other QP's looking for a place to hold up. The only threat that would encourage me to move is if the Yellowstone Caldera "Super Volcano" kicked off. :roll eyes: And if that happened, you couldn't move fast enough.

Brush Okie
04-19-2017, 18:21
My choice did seem counterintuitive but I was thinking of a previous black bear encounter I had as well as most of the documented grizzly encounters and they tend to occur in close proximities and I'd rather stop Yogi's attack instead of just pissing him off.

All that being said, with my current location, I'm better off staying right where I'm at and putting out the near/far recognition signal to other QP's looking for a place to hold up. The only threat that would encourage me to move is if the Yellowstone Caldera "Super Volcano" kicked off. :roll eyes: And if that happened, you couldn't move fast enough.

I Used to have one and ammo may be heavy but it is still a good viable choice

mikec71
04-19-2017, 19:50
MK18 Rifle
T-1/Larue Sight
Knight’s Armament QDSS NT4suppressor
Surefire ight
7 Mags of Mk 272 Ammo

Sig 229R with Surefire Light (could be used on rifle also)
Trijicon Night sights
OWB holster TBD
4 x 15 round mags of 147 Rangers
extra 229 40 Cal barrel (Lots of extra ammo out there)

Ruger 22/45 or 10/22 Takedown (Still weighing options)

Takedown would fit good in a backpack
Suppressed
4-5 Magazines of quality ammo
Low power scope or an optic I could use on rifle and pistol

PVS 14 (Uses same batteries as SF Lights)
Small Steiner Binos

3 day pack with:
Contractor garbage bags
550 cord
First aide kit
Poncho
Liner
Socks
High energy food, protein bars, jerky
E&E Kit with fishing supplies
solar recharger for batteries

I have been doing a lot of research on using police scanners (Digital & Analog) to monitor local PD, FD and Local Government radio. I can also get State Police, National Guard Aviation & Ground and all types of other broadcasts. I can be better informed listening directly from the source than any news broadcast. If you listen you can learn a lot (Just like on here). Not much weight but lots of intel, and even entertainment.


Maps, Compass, Protractor, Google Maps photos, As much intel as I can take to help navigate. Make it easy to find locations. Show roads, buildings, farms, forests, airports, highways, industrial areas, uninformed routes of travel

Roguish Lawyer
04-19-2017, 19:57
I know we have touched on this in other threads, but things may have changed, or someone has a new opinion.

For this scenario, let’s say you have to hit the road (on foot), alone, in ten minutes. You need to be prepared to move at least 100 miles cross country to an alternate safe site / Bug Out Location you have access to. Hopefully, you have your Second Line (carriage) and Third Line (ruck) packed and ready to go, though we could discuss what we have in them as well. Your safe and ammo better be easily accessible. Assume that there will be two-and four-legged predators looking for you along the way. You will be by yourself for this movement, assume that others will meet you at the bug-out location and you will not encounter friendlies en route. Avoiding contact would be the best plan.

The primary issue for discussion here is what weapons you would select to bring with you.

Accessories, optics, slings, holsters, lights, spare mags, ammo, etc., should be listed as well, and their weight added to the total.

Remember that weapons and ammo are heavy. Ounces equal pounds, and pounds equal pain. Good slings and holsters make the load more manageable, but 100 pounds of lightweight gear still weighs 100 pounds. If we assume that your ruck should weigh no more than 45 pounds loaded, with water, and your second line gear (minus armor, weapons and ammo) weighs ten (plus any water carried on it), you probably would not want to add much more than 25 pounds of guns and ammo, in total, if you want to be able to move. Eighty pounds is a lot of weight for someone not accustomed to carrying it, and if you have not practiced with carrying the weight over distances, cross-country, you might want to give it a try before you decide to bring your Barrett M-82 and 1000 rounds.

What you have is what you have, minus water and food you might acquire along the way, no caches or friendlies to resupply from, though en route caches might be a good discussion for another thread.

Rifle: Lightweight Bravo Company M-4 variant, 5.56
Trijicon ACOG TA-31 and LaRue mount
AN/PVS-14
Surefire X300
VCAS sling
Seven loaded 30 round mags
Spare batteries
16 lbs.

Pistol: Glock 19, Gen 4, with night sights, 9x19
One loaded fifteen round mag and two 17 round mags with +2 base pads
Strong side holster (still searching for the perfect one)
Surefire pressure switch for X200
3.5 lbs.

Rimfire pistol: Ruger .22/45, Mk 3, .22 LR
SilencerCo Sparrow SS suppressor
Three ten-round mags of .22 LR Standard Velocity, loaded, and 100 spare rounds
Holster (still searching for the perfect one)
4 lbs.

Could you dispense with one of the weapons, like the long gun, a pistol, or maybe the rifle and a pistol, counting on speed for security? The answer might depend on what you have at your BOL for replacement firearms.

What is your firearms load out for this scenario?

TR

I think I may be in a unique situation, because I can go 100 miles and still be in a pretty urban environment from where I live. Walking around with a ruck or a long gun would make me stand out like a sore thumb.

So, I'm thinking no ruck, no long gun. I'll carry an H&K USP Compact .40 IWB, wear a baseball cap, and carry a small daypack with some basic toiletries, change of clothes, water, food, three loaded extra mags, a light, and perhaps a few boxes of extra ammo if it fits. Small first aid kit and small emergency survival pack too. What I really need to transit this environment and avoid detection are a few burner phones, several loaded debit cards, and plenty of cash. I can resupply en route, so I don't need to carry a lot of anything.

:munchin

PSM
04-19-2017, 21:30
I think I may be in a unique situation, because I can go 100 miles and still be in a pretty urban environment from where I live. Walking around with a ruck or a long gun would make me stand out like a sore thumb.

:munchin

I escaped from being pushed up against the beach. You might be wise to think "water". ;)

Pat

Penn
04-19-2017, 23:11
miclo18dI personally am of the notion of never bring a knife to a gunfight and never bring a pistol to a rifle fight. I would still want an AR variant. I'm still a 5.56 fan. My current is a hand built 16" mid length. Good all around. I would lighten my basic load to probably 4 mags.


Understanding that basic tenet, I'd add the AR and 6/30 rnd mags
1# 4oz per mag = 7.4 0z
7.5 # M4

total 14.9+15.1= 29.10 load

I would not lessen the load as I think the movement is a multi day event to complete.

Taking into consideration a grp has organized an established an RP, would imply several routes have also been considered, but I also add a 1:25 map of the AO.

The Reaper
04-20-2017, 17:36
I tend to agree that with 2 and 4 legged threats out there, bring the rifle and hope you do not have to use it.

If you got to the RP and it had been overrun, having nothing but a .22LR pistol might limit your options considerably.

RL, you have a rather unique set of circumstances. Maybe the long-term plan is to eventually move out of that area. In the meanwhile, I would suggest that if you can get an SBR, the new AR Personal Defense Weapons in 5.56 with the M-3 type collapsible stock and a very short barrel is very handy and concealable. Might even fit in a briefcase. Unfortunately, a suppressor is not available at your current location, and I would definitely want one for this journey. Definitely, you need a brick of .22 CB Longs and a pump or lever action to run them through. Next time you are near Bragg, you will have to come over for a range day and check a few cans out. Sadly, I would feel that the odds would be very long indeed if things went to crap, ala Rodney King trial, and there were rioters in the street and roadblocks every few intersections and you had to move through it. To top it all off, you live in an area with very limited surface water to replenish with. Were I you, I would have the best intel net I could find, and would pack for an extended camping trip well before they got to your neighborhood. There are so many man-made and natural disaster possibilities in your area requiring evacuation that I would probably keep a bunch of storage boxes stacked near the garage door with my necessities to be ready to go on very short notice. BTW, burners are easy, call me if you need details.

Agreed on the Mk 262, SOST Mk 316, or TAP 5.56 ammo several have recommended.

IMHO, takedowns are generally to slow to deploy and add too much weight for the purpose of this scenario.

I think that outside of shelter and water purification (I do not like the straws, they are prone to clog very quickly in dirty water and do not permit you to upload clean water to your storage devices. The Sawyer is a much better option, light, and its extremely inexpensive, IMHO. The Katadyns are the heat, but tend to be heavy and bulky. The primary load is going to be food.

A very fit long distance rucker with a minimalist load, good flat routes, running trails (and avoiding large water obstacles and severe elevation changes) while maintaining some security could cross 100 miles in 3-4 days. The out of shape guy with too much weight and a bad route could take a couple of weeks and still maybe never get there. I think a reasonable compromise for an average fit male to move 100 miles on varied terrain and no major water obstacles would be a week to ten days and the food load should support that.

Jerky and a couple of protein bars isn't going to get you there. In this situation, hunting is jeopardizing your security, and the time it takes to trap or snare is probably not worth the food you might gather. Fishing might be an option, if you knew where and what to fish with, and had a secluded site. I would guess that you might want to stock 20-30 freeze dried and high energy meals and additional snacks for the trip, averaging 3,000 calories per day or more. This would probably necessitate a stove and fuel as well, due to the requirement for boiling water and the security issue of making a campfire.

Will add to this later.

TR

Roguish Lawyer
04-20-2017, 18:15
RL, you have a rather unique set of circumstances. Maybe the long-term plan is to eventually move out of that area. In the meanwhile, I would suggest that if you can get an SBR, the new AR Personal Defense Weapons in 5.56 with the M-3 type collapsible stock and a very short barrel is very handy and concealable. Might even fit in a briefcase. Unfortunately, a suppressor is not available at your current location, and I would definitely want one for this journey. Definitely, you need a brick of .22 CB Longs and a pump or lever action to run them through. Next time you are near Bragg, you will have to come over for a range day and check a few cans out. Sadly, I would feel that the odds would be very long indeed if things went to crap, ala Rodney King trial, and there were rioters in the street and roadblocks every few intersections and you had to move through it. To top it all off, you live in an area with very limited surface water to replenish with. Were I you, I would have the best intel net I could find, and would pack for an extended camping trip well before they got to your neighborhood. There are so many man-made and natural disaster possibilities in your area requiring evacuation that I would probably keep a bunch of storage boxes stacked near the garage door with my necessities to be ready to go on very short notice. BTW, burners are easy, call me if you need details.


I did not read this scenario as indicating the reason for bugging out was civil unrest. More that someone was coming for me. In the civil unrest scenario, I have a completely different plan, with Plan A being to shelter in place and Plan B involving a boat.

You know I can't come to Bragg without seeing you, and range time would be awesome. :)

Sdiver
04-20-2017, 18:18
I did not read this scenario as indicating the reason for bugging out was civil unrest. More that someone was coming for me. In the civil unrest scenario, I have a completely different plan, with Plan A being to shelter in place and Plan B involving a boat.

You know I can't come to Bragg without seeing you, and range time would be awesome. :)

Hummmmm .... I didn't know Ft. Bragg was on the coast?

Well I guess it's true what they say, 'You Learn something new everyday.' :D

miclo18d
04-20-2017, 18:21
RL, you have a rather unique set of circumstances.

Taking a hint from Fear the Walking Dead. RL may want to consider The water as his bug out plan. This requires a completely different set of skills and would probably require stealing any boat that has the right capabilities, but this would negate having to negotiate the urban nightmare as well as reducing probable contact significantly.

Even a small Kayak or a Hobie sailboat for around $2000 could get the job done and get you away from the city to get you to less urban environments.

Katadyn filters are probably the gold standard, but for MUCH less money and weight, the former Sweetwater Guardian (now owned by MSR) is a very good product!

tonyz
04-20-2017, 18:34
Slight thread drift - never used one but Katadyn and salt water escape piqued my interest...for those with deep pockets...KATADYN SURVIVOR 35...stashed on a boat might be useful.

The most widely-used emergency desalinator. Produces up to 4.5 litres per hour. Produces enough water for multiple person liferafts. Widely used by US and international military forces, voyagers, sea kayakers, and other adventurers.

https://www.katadyn.com/us/us/140-8013433-katadyn-survivor-35

Oldrotorhead
04-20-2017, 20:36
An alternative to breaking down the rifle might be useful and bringing the rifle on line s pretty fast.
A Law Tactical folder can help make an AR easier to hide and a 14.5" barrel helps too.

https://www.lawtactical.com/ar_folding_stock_adapter_gen_3_m_p/99312.htm

Brush Okie
04-20-2017, 20:45
I was thinking about an E&E through large urban area.

Same weapons and load out , Ruger 22 pistol and AR rifle, but I would use an old shopping cart as cover, to carry my rifle in and hidden and keep the load off my back. In the western WA area homeless are so numerous no one would give you a second glace. The key is to shuffle along talking to yourself wearing old ratty clothes. I did forget to add my knife. I have a Becker BK-7 or Ka-Bar I could use. Again only if I had no choice but to take someone out silently. The idea would be to avoid contact or any kind of fight, it would only draw attention. Need a meal, lots of options for hand outs/free kitchens.

PSM
04-20-2017, 21:32
but I would use an old shopping cart as cover, to carry my rifle in and hidden and keep the load off my back.

I was thinking about that last night, as well. For RL, in LA there are lots of movie prop-shops where he might be able to buy one. If not, perhaps a regular supermarket or large independent like Beachwood market under the Hollywood sign. Why buy you ask. To trick it out of course. Put softer, quieter, wheels and grease up the bearings. Then again, someone might become suspicious if at least one of the wheels didn't freeze or wiggle violently. ;)

Pat

The Reaper
04-20-2017, 21:53
A BoB discussion.

I believe that a well-provisioned BoB should consist of modules, rather than a random collection of items stuffed into a large ruck.

A medium-sized ruck (unless under extreme cold weather threat) should hold the 40 pounds or less this journey requires. I would go larger only if the food cubed out the ruck.

A good, sturdy, well-broken in pair of boots and a good pair of socks should be in the ruck unless you wear those items daily. While moving, you should stop to change socks regularly and bring several pairs packed in waterproof bags, along with underclothes and clothes appropriate for the season.

A waterproof fire starter module with at least two or three methods of starting a fire is critical. Lighters, strikers, waterproof matches, fresnel lenses, tinder, and miscellaneous fire starters go in here.

Water purification is very important. Plan on bringing a water purification device, like a Sawyer, some water purification tablets or a MIOX, and several water containers.

Shelter is a necessity in most climates, whether it is for a wet, cold environment, or for a hot, humid, insect-ridden climate. Pack the appropriate gear in this module, whether it is a poncho and liner, a bivvy bag, or a lightweight tent and a sleeping bag. I find a small Thermarest pad to be a worthy addition in all environments.

You would need a navigation module of a map, a compass, a protractor, and a pencil, and if the constellation is still up, a GPS and a method to charge it. Add a pair of mini-binos, unless you have a magnifying optic.

A related module is the signal module with, for example, a small signal mirror, a whistle, a chemlight, and a signal scarf. This kit would be very small for this scenario as you likely have no need to signal anyone, until you are at the end of your journey.

Another required item is first aid module with a small trauma kit, a meds kit, and an owie kit capable of sustaining minor injuries over your 100 mile journey. This would be a good place for a spare pair of glasses.

A tool and repair module can be small but very useful with a Leatherman, SAK, fixed blade knife, thread and needles, a limited amount of Gorilla tape, para cord, elastic cord, snare wire, electric wire, (a commercial tent/clothing repair kit might be a useful addition), zip ties, Spectra or Kevlar line, safety pins, a hacksaw blade, some glue, spare batteries, etc. A folding saw is fairly convenient and may be a good return on the weight and bulk. A small, folding solar panel would be a great way to recharge batteries or an external power pack. One must have item is a good headlamp with spare batteries, and I prefer to add a small handheld LED flashlight. I would consider a small sharpening stone, but the duration and movement might make it excessive if you start with a sharp knife.

One comfort item, but one I would work to try and make fit would be a hygiene module with wipes, soap, toothbrush and toothpaste, floss, pack towel, foot powder, etc. in very small quantities. Add seasonal items like chapstick, insect repellent, and / or sun screen.

The cooking module would contain food, snacks, a titanium pot set, utensils, a small stove, fuel, beverages, seasoning, a tiny bottle of a cooking oil of your choice, ziplocs, tinfoil, a very small container of liquid soap, a piece of a scrubbie, etc. A couple of contractor plastic bags can assist with shelter construction or a plethora of applications. Smaller bags might be handy as well.

If you anticipate moving slowly and packing lightly in an area with plentiful fish, a fishing kit may make sense for you.

A very small weapons maintenance kit like a stripped down Otis with a couple of patches and a tiny bottle of weapons oil might be worthwhile. I would avoid anything larger than that. Again, start with a clean, well-oiled weapon. Spare mags not worn on the gear and extra ammo go in this module.

Some of this gear might migrate its way to your second or first line gear (like the tools or knives).

I would add that I have deliberately left out a cell phone. If you are trying not to be found and still insist on taking one, remove the battery or put it into an RF bag, or both.

Build your BoB, go to the woods, and test it to see what you have forgotten or don't really have a need for. At least a couple of times per year, you should go through your BoB and swap the seasonal clothes and items with expiration dates out.

Hope this helps, or spurs additional discussion. What have I left out?

TR

Brush Okie
04-20-2017, 22:12
A BoB discussion.

I believe that a well-provisioned BoB should consist of modules, rather than a random collection of items stuffed into a large ruck.

A medium-sized ruck (unless under extreme cold weather threat) should hold the 40 pounds or less this journey requires. I would go larger only if the food cubed out the ruck.

A good, sturdy, well-broken in pair of boots and a good pair of socks should be in the ruck unless you wear those items daily. While moving, you should stop to change socks regularly and bring several pairs packed in waterproof bags, along with underclothes and clothes appropriate for the season.

A waterproof fire starter module with at least two or three methods of starting a fire is critical. Lighters, strikers, waterproof matches, fresnel lenses, tinder, and miscellaneous fire starters go in here.

Water purification is very important. Plan on bringing a water purification device, like a Sawyer, some water purification tablets or a MIOX, and several water containers.

Shelter is a necessity in most climates, whether it is for a wet, cold environment, or for a hot, humid, insect-ridden climate. Pack the appropriate gear in this module, whether it is a poncho and liner, a bivvy bag, or a lightweight tent and a sleeping bag. I find a small Thermarest pad to be a worthy addition in all environments.

You would need a navigation module of a map, a compass, a protractor, and a pencil, and if the constellation is still up, a GPS and a method to charge it. Add a pair of mini-binos, unless you have a magnifying optic.

A related module is the signal module with, for example, a small signal mirror, a whistle, a chemlight, and a signal scarf. This kit would be very small for this scenario as you likely have no need to signal anyone, until you are at the end of your journey.

Another required item is first aid module with a small trauma kit, a meds kit, and an owie kit capable of sustaining minor injuries over your 100 mile journey. This would be a good place for a spare pair of glasses.

A tool and repair module can be small but very useful with a Leatherman, SAK, fixed blade knife, thread and needles, a limited amount of Gorilla tape, para cord, elastic cord, snare wire, electric wire, (a commercial tent/clothing repair kit might be a useful addition), zip ties, Spectra or Kevlar line, safety pins, a hacksaw blade, some glue, spare batteries, etc. A folding saw is fairly convenient and may be a good return on the weight and bulk. A small, folding solar panel would be a great way to recharge batteries or an external power pack. One must have item is a good headlamp with spare batteries, and I prefer to add a small handheld LED flashlight. I would consider a small sharpening stone, but the duration and movement might make it excessive if you start with a sharp knife.

One comfort item, but one I would work to try and make fit would be a hygiene module with wipes, soap, toothbrush and toothpaste, floss, pack towel, foot powder, etc. in very small quantities. Add seasonal items like chapstick, insect repellent, and / or sun screen.

The cooking module would contain food, snacks, a titanium pot set, utensils, a small stove, fuel, beverages, seasoning, a tiny bottle of a cooking oil of your choice, ziplocs, tinfoil, a very small container of liquid soap, a piece of a scrubbie, etc. A couple of contractor plastic bags can assist with shelter construction or a plethora of applications. Smaller bags might be handy as well.

If you anticipate moving slowly and packing lightly in an area with plentiful fish, a fishing kit may make sense for you.

A very small weapons maintenance kit like a stripped down Otis with a couple of patches and a tiny bottle of weapons oil might be worthwhile. I would avoid anything larger than that. Again, start with a clean, well-oiled weapon. Spare mags not worn on the gear and extra ammo go in this module.

Some of this gear might migrate its way to your second or first line gear (like the tools or knives).

I would add that I have deliberately left out a cell phone. If you are trying not to be found and still insist on taking one, remove the battery or put it into an RF bag, or both.

Build your BoB, go to the woods, and test it to see what you have forgotten or don't really have a need for. At least a couple of times per year, you should go through your BoB and swap the seasonal clothes and items with expiration dates out.

Hope this helps, or spurs additional discussion. What have I left out?

TR

Can't think of anything left out. As a light cleaning kit carry a couple pieces of weed eater line cut sharp on one end and melted on the other so a cleaning patch does not come off when run through a barrel of a weapon. I used that before OTIS came out. I still do on my 22 pistols.

My favorite sleeping kit for many environments is a hammock, tarp and poncho liner. Add a cheap sleeping pad for warmth.

TWITCHY
04-20-2017, 22:39
TR, you referred to first line and second line gear in your post and I also saw this mentioned in a forum discussion about "battle belts". I was not in the military so I do not know what first and second line gear refer to, exactly. I searched on these forums for reference, but I didn't find anything about it. Could you direct me to a resource that describes first and second line gear?

Also, a friend of mine has become infatuated with battle belts. He was not in the military, either. Are battle belts something that are actually used by soldiers or is it a new tacticool piece of gear. They look like they would be useful in the situation you have presented. I would assume that a battle belt or any other tactical looking gear would not be suited to the urban environment (if one intends to blend in); however, I could see a battle belt being useful in the country, hills, or mountains during the 100 mile trek.

I really appreciate the expert opinions in this thread and I am making a shopping list based on everyone's input. Thanks.

TJ11B
04-21-2017, 10:16
Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths". :D

bblhead672
04-21-2017, 15:35
Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths". :D

Funny you should mention that...I've been thinking along the same thoughts. Mark the corners with "street sign" names for areas that you know well (but not the neighborhood you're actually in!) but the meaning would be lost on anyone else.

Penn
04-21-2017, 23:33
TJ 11B Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths".

Bingo for urban, when we were kids, we covered the entire town, even had egress an exit strategies to avoid parents and those who would curtail our little world of invisibility.

The load keeps increasing and I would argue, not for safety and minimalism to complete the transit, but for comfort sake, fire, food, not sleeping on dirt and absorbing the chill of the earth.

It reminds me of when Sandy hit the northeast, my wife and I experienced no hardship. Friends and relatives not so much. One, who is the building supervisor for a major property in NYC, that covers an entire block in Chelsea, went into lock down, as criminals tried to break in through the gates. Unable to assess the threat and defend, they knock on every door seeking arms to protect themselves. Nada, not one owner held a personal firearm...

That said, I come back to the the base element. You are an army of one.

Any encounter will most likely not end in your favor.

Therefore, a light load, because you are on the run, and need to cover 10/20 miles intervals per day, while avoiding all detection, like cooking food, fishing and hunting, unless its with a sling shot, is a death sentence. imoo

doctom54
04-22-2017, 10:17
DPMS Oracle 5.56 with 6 30 rd mags plus one 20 rd in the rifle
ACOG TA31 with BAC
Streamlight TLR with white light and IR laser.

AN/PVS 14 (still need one or two more for others in the group)

Perhaps some 550 cord to rig a sling when I need one. Where I live a sling gets caught a lot moving thru thick stuff.

Ruger 22/45 Packlite barrel with suppressor 1 spare magazine plus one in the pistol and 100 rounds of CCI MiniMag.
I have NOT found a holster I like for it. Any thoughts?


This scenario is unlikely for me since I have my wife here and lots of step children, son-in-law and multiple grandkids nearby. Still If I have to move with them it would be about 50 miles thru the mountains to a safe location (all ready prepped). My basic load stays the same. The adults all get an AR and the grandkids all get a .22 rifle.

The Reaper
04-22-2017, 21:26
TJ 11B

Bingo for urban, when we were kids, we covered the entire town, even had egress an exit strategies to avoid parents and those who would curtail our little world of invisibility.

The load keeps increasing and I would argue, not for safety and minimalism to complete the transit, but for comfort sake, fire, food, not sleeping on dirt and absorbing the chill of the earth.

It reminds me of when Sandy hit the northeast, my wife and I experienced no hardship. Friends and relatives not so much. One, who is the building supervisor for a major property in NYC, that covers an entire block in Chelsea, went into lock down, as criminals tried to break in through the gates. Unable to assess the threat and defend, they knock on every door seeking arms to protect themselves. Nada, not one owner held a personal firearm...

That said, I come back to the the base element. You are an army of one.

Any encounter will most likely not end in your favor.

Therefore, a light load, because you are on the run, and need to cover 10/20 miles intervals per day, while avoiding all detection, like cooking food, fishing and hunting, unless its with a sling shot, is a death sentence. imoo

I believe that everyone has to find their happy medium between overloaded with too much junk, and comfortably loaded with what you need. The only way to do that is to walk with your load on your back, and practice living out of it.

I do not believe that you can make this journey with little to no food or by shivering all night to try and keep from freezing. Buzzing and biting insects can make you crazy. A little bad water and you are stuck for several days trying to recover while puking and crapping your guts out. A couple of bouts of this and you would be seriously ineffective, if not dead.

A JetBoil or the like can make hot water for rehydrating meals or warming beverages very quickly, without adding a lot of weight. A one ounce fishing kit might keep you moving, if you know when and where to use it. Most things I would choose to carry can be used for more than one purpose.

In the right season, your shelter and clothing might be quite light. In winter up North, not so much.

The Native American generally traveled light, but his life expectancy was very short as well.

Running will likely get you detected and rolled up. You can make 10-20 miles per day without running, if you are conditioned, plan well, and have the right terrain and route selected.

First line gear has been discussed extensively here before. First is on your person or in your pockets. Second is the next layer after that and is generally your load carrying gear. Third line is your rucksack and its contents.

Agreed with the comments about urban camouflage, but would suggest you determine in advance which underground tunnels are passable on foot, or are filled with sewage or toxic gas on a regular basis.

CI MiniMags are supersonic from a rifle, and some pistols. You may want to find out before you have to use them and they are not quiet.

Just my .02, YMMV.

TR

Brush Okie
04-25-2017, 15:09
As a thought how useful would a crossbow or even compound bow be for this mission? I used to archery hunt but never used a cross bow. I knew a guy that was a SEAL in Vietnam and said he used a crossbow once in Vietnam. He was not forthcoming about details but did work on the Phoenix program. Yes he was the real deal. Granted in a firefight it would be next to useless but for taking game or taking a single person out quietly, with the right shot, it might be useful.

It would not be my first choice but for the right terrain and person it might be an option. Thoughts..............:munchin

Peregrino
04-25-2017, 15:44
As a thought how useful would a crossbow or even compound bow be for this mission? I used to archery hunt but never used a cross bow. I knew a guy that was a SEAL in Vietnam and said he used a crossbow once in Vietnam. He was not forthcoming about details but did work on the Phoenix program. Yes he was the real deal. Granted in a firefight it would be next to useless but for taking game or taking a single person out quietly, with the right shot, it might be useful.

It would not be my first choice but for the right terrain and person it might be an option. Thoughts..............:munchin

You carry the crossbow, I'll stick with my 22/45 and Silencerco Sparrow. I'll bet you a steak dinner at the RP that I won't be nearly as annoyed about the "getting there" as you will be. :munchin

Brush Okie
04-25-2017, 16:19
You carry the crossbow, I'll stick with my 22/45 and Silencerco Sparrow. I'll bet you a steak dinner at the RP that I won't be nearly as annoyed about the "getting there" as you will be. :munchin

My Ruger Mk II with suppressor is first choice for me as well, just kicking around options, ideas etc. How effective are they in the real world etc.

JJ_BPK
04-25-2017, 16:29
As a thought how useful would a crossbow or even compound bow be for this mission? I used to archery hunt but never used a cross bow. I knew a guy that was a SEAL in Vietnam and said he used a crossbow once in Vietnam. He was not forthcoming about details but did work on the Phoenix program. Yes he was the real deal. Granted in a firefight it would be next to useless but for taking game or taking a single person out quietly, with the right shot, it might be useful.

It would not be my first choice but for the right terrain and person it might be an option. Thoughts..............:munchin

Never doubt a SEAL,, it's the details that get fuzzy.. :rolleyes:

Widely use by the more primitive mountain tribes. Short range, good for small monkeys, birds.

Do you remember Lynda K Lance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG3LEK2WD8g

The Yards made her one while she was on a USO tour.

"Getting My Montagnard Crossbow (still have it)"

For portability? I think I would look at a good sling-shot and 1/4 or 3/8 steel balls.

Brush Okie
04-25-2017, 16:46
Never doubt a SEAL,, it's the details that get fuzzy.. :rolleyes:

s.



LOL

I know what you mean. This guy is legit however. I knew the guy somewhat for a couple years before he even mentioned it . I had my doubts at first as well. It sounded like the bow was more of a toy to try out than a weapon they really carried.

It is shitty weather here in WA and my mind stars wondering about odd ball shit when I get bored. :D

DaveP
04-25-2017, 19:16
As I checked the wx this AM making decisions for the day (affirm on leaving the dogs out in the yard, neg on riding the MC to work), I wondered how many in this scenario would take a moment to review and somehow record the forecast for the expected duration of movement. Clearly not the highest priority, but would certainly have bearing on visibility, expected traffic/patrol patterns, potential water avail, LP/concealment locations, etc.

Although I'm a near-Luddite, most would have near-instant access to a reasonably accurate extended forecast at least before departing, and there are quick ways to shorthand data in a notebook if you don't plan or expect to be using e-tools on the way.
When I'm in the boonies for more than an overnight to fish or hunt, I'll use a Rite-in-the-Rain pad to record min/max T, rainfall timing, cloud cover, and wind/direction for the duration. Let's me plan when to expect birds to hold or seek southerly aspects, when I'd be better to sleep in, when it'd be better to fish. In the days when I was into skiing and avi study, it was also nice to know expected pressure changes as well, both for the snow science part and to know when not to trust the Suunto altimeter.

Thoughts?
DaveP

Golf1echo
04-26-2017, 00:47
Some different thoughts on movement. Depending on whether it is a mass evacuation or an independent movement?

In some cases I might presume groups or crowds of people moving away from cities with a wide spectrum of skills and abilities. How far out would they be going, some probably only going minimal distances as opposed to the 100 miles stated.

How would terrain channelize movement... In Colo. with the foot hills it would be different than the plateau at 3,400' I was at in NC.

One thought might be the ability to change appearance during movement which could be as simple as a different colored shirt, hat or pack cover. In other situations the ability to camouflage and or reduce signatures might be key during halts.

Navigation could be dead reckoning w/or wo a map or it might require local knowledge of terrain, trails and historical info. ( older overgrown trails and disused routes)? In the triple canopy forest maps and altimeters come in handy.

Small game gets rousted while traveling quietly alone or in small groups, I was thinking of the game in this area ie Rabbit and squirrel, however there have been recent out breaks of tularemia ( rabbit fever) and known episodes of rabies in this State...which makes one ponder the meds and items needed for travel. Often have been curious what supplements might come in handy in situations where you are obtaining some local food but not meeting all dietary needs ie proteins, carbs vitamins, stimulants *...
* While I enjoy pine and spruce needle tea a nice black tea or tasty coffee makes a difference at times.

In Colo. they say if you don't like the weather wait five minutes, they say there are seasons here but we have seen 80f temps a week ago and snow for tomorrow. Travel in the high country can be dicey and unpredictable often. Good skill craft can go a long way in dealing with the intangibles and as said before multi purpose equipment can make a big difference.*
* 18f temps 12" of snow a week after 70f temps a week earlier.

Thinking about the weapons load out I realized I take the same when heading to the Mt location here, while I understand things can happen on the way I regard the last movement into a space I have not controlled recently as the most likely danger zone. Being prepared might just make the difference in this scenario both for you and your crew especially in remote areas.

sfshooter
04-26-2017, 19:18
I have found it interesting to see what type of terrain/obstacles others have to negotiate with. It definitely makes me more pleased with my location. A straight azimuth in one direction would put me in a Forest Service mountain range in 40 miles and in another direction a Forest Service mountain range in 45 miles. Both of which would not cross thru urban areas/towns. The avoidance would be for the most part isolated farm and/or ranch houses some of which I am on a good friends basis:D

TR, thanks for putting this thread together and the others in the past. It really gets a guy to thinking. I have had several rucks/packs thrown together with various stuff but none specific to a situation. I will be doing some testing this summer as in a couple of months some friends and I are going to trek across the Snowy Mountains. It's not a great distance but will sure give me a feel for loads at altitude, something I haven't had a lot of experience with.

devil508
05-05-2017, 12:08
Good thread and worth following. I keep challenging my thinking on what I keep packed.

And yeah, this is my first and "great" contribution, but you'll thank me a couple miles after you drop a deuce: wet wipes, MRE TP....something. No need to be miserable. 100 miles is a long ways. I didn't see this mentioned under anyone's comfort items, but I'm getting older/dumber.

Any thoughts to small handheld radio or in this scenario is there a concern about monitoring? Comms plans sometimes overlooked.

Team Sergeant
05-05-2017, 12:46
Another option for urban area E&E could be large diameter storm drain systems underneath roads in large cities. I think the trick would be in pre-planning route to ensure accessibility and making sure you have options for "opening paths". :D

I'd never choose this "route' for a number of reasons. In a very large city you have two choices, get out before the human tsunami or wait until the tide recedes and get out after.

And if you live within a largely populated area you have better already made E&E plans as your options will be severely limited.

tonyz
05-08-2017, 15:52
Did a little test today.

88F 38% humidity.

Flat ground out of a small city - through some really shitty portions (about 3-4 mile stretch) of a city.

Cargo shorts with snivel/cut/scrape gear filling pockets.

1liter of water, 1 cliff bar. glasses and case, wallet, .380 and 1 spare mag.

Made it 12 miles to destination in almost exactly 3 hours and I was tired - but I am a FOG. Had maybe about another 10 miles or so in me before long rest required. The old injuries, aches and pains began to visit - but I have done no training.

Time to start training.

Brush Okie
05-08-2017, 18:31
Did a little test today.

88F 38% humidity.

Flat ground out of a small city - through some really shitty portions (about 3-4 mile stretch) of a city.

Cargo shorts with snivel/cut/scrape gear filling pockets.

1liter of water, 1 cliff bar. glasses and case, wallet, .380 and 1 spare mag.

Made it 12 miles to destination in almost exactly 3 hours and I was tired - but I am a FOG. Had maybe about another 10 miles or so in me before long rest required. The old injuries, aches and pains began to visit - but I have done no training.

Time to start training.

Good job.

If you have never done it before rucking day after day will wear you out. You have to learn to pace yourself. If you exhaust yourself everyday you will make mistakes from fatigue. I can't tell you how to pace yourself but it is a good lesson to learn.

LarryW
05-08-2017, 20:44
Stealth is key. Goal is to survive 100 miles (and for me that may take a while (FOG)). 5 miles/day? Fine with me. Burn fewer calories, besides why the rush? Outfit with poncho & liner, gloves, sox, spare glasses, head cover, etc. BoB with hydration system, purification pills, salt pills, first aid kit, compass, fire starter, etc. Weapons only as needed for food and last ditch to repel boarders including: No long gun or heavy sidearm. Carry long bow (45# with 12 shafts (mixed heads incl hunting/fishing tips), survival take down .22 and 200 rds, K-bar and folding knife. Live on the flora/fauna available. Carry only the store-bought hi-protein food stuff you feel is absolutely essential. Slow and steady invisibility. I'll make it.

TJ11B
05-08-2017, 21:01
I'd never choose this "route' for a number of reasons. In a very large city you have two choices, get out before the human tsunami or wait until the tide recedes and get out after.

And if you live within a largely populated area you have better already made E&E plans as your options will be severely limited.

TS

I couldn't agree more with your assessment.

If a person is unfortunate enough to count themselves among the folks who live within a major urban area and have not hit the road before the mass exodus has begun then their options are seriously limited.

My thought was that maybe underground, large diameter storm drain systems etc., if properly mapped out, could serve a purpose for anybody trying to evade organized thuggery i.e. (roadblocks, bad spots) in their effort to make to make it out of such an area.

V/R

BryanK
06-06-2017, 05:43
This could be an addition to the kit. I'm buying one just for the gee-whiz factor. A slingshot that can shoot arrows, which even has a bowfishing attachment, could prove very useful for the hunting/gathering portion of the trek IMO.

http://www.thepocketshot.com/store/c1/Featured_Products.html

G2squared
09-12-2017, 00:04
A couple things:

1)Has anyone seen the takedown AR15 SBRs?

Some videos of a few able to stuffed into a camera bag or vehicle centre console sized cubic volume.

What say you about the value of discretion over reduced long range performance?

Use pistol to fight to long?

2)What does everyone use for water storage/sterilisation/filtration?

I prefer 1 no more than 2 canteens, the rest in a single large bladder with a backup heavy duty rubbish bag.

For water sterilisation, I like my Katadyn portable pump filter.

I own Life Straws and Steripens. The Steripen demands high end batteries for efficacy. For me, I carry the Katadyn and Steripen as backup.

3)Food?

For food I carry long shelf life hugh energy density, small cube snacks.

4)Mini-Bivvy for colder areas/months?

I've used an ultra light mini-bivvy for civvie climbing in NZ and Colorado, ultra light, very small cube. I just leave my gear on bar boots/socks and hop in.

FWIW:

About the "takedown" AR15s. There have been a few new additions to that arena that don't add any more weight than going to a good free float barrel assembly. The barrel nut ends up being the weight add at 5.4oz vs a std at 1.2oz. But keep in mind that most free floated barrels require special barrel nuts that are also in the 5oz range. So if you're considering the difference in a free floated barrel on a fixed barrel AR vs a "quick change"/takedown setup, it might just end up being personal preference. Some manf take the barrel and free float handguard off the upper and others just pull the barrel out. So if you are considering the difference in packed length for concealing it until you get out of populated areas, see the manf literature for what you are getting. Regardless, they are "slow" to setup with parts that are not easily assembled as gross motor skill movements. The gas tube still has to fit into a small hole and if the threads don't line up, it won't work no matter who made it or how mad you get in a hurry! So they claim you can change barrels/setup in "seconds" but if it's carried in a bag with the rest of your gear, it won't come out quick when needed and won't assemble nearly fast enough. Even if you can take the extra length of just separating the upper and lower, the time it takes to assemble if you need it is too long.
If your plan is to use something else until you can assemble it without needing it RIGHT NOW!!, then a take down/quick change system might be ok for your situation, but I'd consider your circumstance very carefully.
I've built several systems as pistols and SBRs for quick change between 300BO and 5.56. They make for very short storage possibilities. But require fine motor skills to assemble.

On 300BO, out of a 10.5" barrel and subsonic ammo...D@mn they are quiet! But consider the scenario and your situation. Is the 200+gr per projectile worth it over 5.56 at 55-62gr/proj? and are you wanting to deal with problems you find now or get to your BOL and come back with help and the best tools for the job instead of the tools you have. "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" shouldn't be on your mind for this scenario.. get to your BOL as quickly and quietly as possible!

My pick on firearms:
Glock 19 with threaded barrel, suppressor and 2 spare 19rd mags. Being an SOT manf, I probably have a couple laying around.
AR15 with a 10" pencil weight barrel and suppressor (see above stuff laying around). 1-30 rd mag in it and 2 - 60rd surefire spares. And screw all this BS military ball crap! I use good hunting ammo!

Personally I think the above list is tragically under armed for nearly everything, but when you need to cover ground and "stay and fight" or "seek and destroy" is not you're mission, then it'll do. Ammo is heavy and so are firearms. Take notes for what you need to come back and deal with later. Just a pistol might also work well for you if you are good at blending both urban and wilderness. I'm just not that confident that I can let them walk past me without seeing me, so if I have to, I want to deal with them at longer range than a pistol will reasonably assure success. 10" barrel on an AR in 5.56 will do the trick out to 200yrds reliably for me. Longer ranges are a stretch but shouldn't matter for this scenario. At 200+yrds even I can move out of the AO without being seen most of the time. :D

And FWIW, I LOVE my full frame 1911s in 45. But carrying one long distance just isn't practical. It's like a boat anchor! I'm pretty good with it, but they just don't make them light! M1A is in the same category. It's a FANTASTIC rifle, but just too heavy to be practical for this scenario.

g