View Full Version : Range Lessons Learned Last Week
Basenshukai
01-14-2005, 21:47
1. Level 3 bullet resistant glass does a great job absorbing most 9mm and .40 cal handgun loads.
2. Wear your Oakleys (this is actually a "sustained")
3. .45 ACP rounds are "relatively" slower than other handgun calibers and may not puncture Level 3 bullet resistant glass at 10 meters.
4. Don't shoot at bullet resistant glass without body armor (this is actually an "improve").
5. .45 ACP rounds can kill you if they bounce off of bullet resistant glass at less than 10 meters.
6. A returning .45 ACP round missing your left eye by just a 1/4 of an inch, but catching and shattering your Oakley glasses is a proof that you are a little more than lucky.
7. A team member standing next to you will assess you for injuries and, upon realizing that there are none, will laugh at you.
8. A black eye is preferable to a lost eye.
9. Buy stock in the Oakley Company!
10. Leave freaking bullet resistant glass alone!
Psywar1-0
01-14-2005, 21:54
and you wondered why the CSM was making you wear body armor just to fast rope :D
Everyone laughed at me for wearing plates to go shoot reactive targets on new years day, till everyone started getting blowback
Bill Harsey
01-15-2005, 09:53
Sounds like you guys need carbide points in your .45 caliber projectiles. I just had a thought one layer deeper on this but I'll save that for PM to QP's only.
Glad your ok.
Are the Oakleys still under guarantee?
Do they make them with polycarbonate lenses?
Basenshukai
01-15-2005, 10:20
Sounds like you guys need carbide points in your .45 caliber projectiles. I just had a thought one layer deeper on this but I'll save that for PM to QP's only.
Glad your ok.
Are the Oakleys still under guarantee?
Do they make them with polycarbonate lenses?
Well, they are issued, so I'm getting another Shooting Array box (contains three lenses - different tints - within an Oakley case and one frame). But, I'll say this much, they are worth the cost.
I'm not familiar with the Oakleys you wear but if they aren't of polycarbonet they should be.
I speak as an optician. It is totally shatter proof. I used to collect polycarbonate lenses that were returned. The most awsome was a lens thah had a sliver of metal stuck in the lense. Had it been of some other material the lens would have shattered and the individual would have lost an eye.
I am sure that the glasses you wear are poly since it is an OSHA requirement for safety glasses. Poly carbonate is actually LEXAN, the same material used in other armored protection devices. It is a soft material and gets its rigidity from the coating.
BTW: Where is my preacher's smiley bosses?
NousDefionsDoc
01-15-2005, 11:17
7. A team member standing next to you will assess you for injuries and, upon realizing that there are none, will laugh at you.
LOL - No blood, no sympathy.
Oakleys are GTG. Blowback is a bitch. Safety gear is important.
I've been looking at the Shooter's Array as well. Is one of the lenses the regular dark sunglass-type? They use all kinds of weird names for the colors of their lenses, so I can never tell.
Basenshukai
01-15-2005, 12:01
LOL - No blood, no sympathy.
Oakleys are GTG. Blowback is a bitch. Safety gear is important.
I've been looking at the Shooter's Array as well. Is one of the lenses the regular dark sunglass-type? They use all kinds of weird names for the colors of their lenses, so I can never tell.
The Shooting Array we have has three types of lenses: Amber, Clear and Dark (Black and not "Iridium", or reflective as the attached JPEG shows). Like the old poncho liner and the field jacket liner, the Oakley glasses is one of the most cherished pieces of equipment we have (due to its excellent design and practicality). Only criticism is the design of the "legs" of the frame. These are somewhat thick and, when worn in conjunction with Peltor ear protection (with integrated communication), apply pressure to the area over the temples and the ears causing mild headaches in some case, annoying discomfort in most. Other than that, I will always rely on Oakley.
When I write that my Oakleys shattered, I was not specific. What shattered was the black frame that holds the lens. The lens itself (vented clear lens, in this case) did not break or crack. All you could see was a copper-colored streak originating from where the round skipped and terminating on the black frame (this broke the frame). If you held the clear lens up to the light of the sun, you could see a rainbow-colored distortion where the lens apparently flexed as it was impacted. Nevertheless, the impact felt as if I had been punched in the face. Other than that, you couldn't see any damage on the lens itself. Of course, I replaced that lens with a brand-new one.
I knew that Oakley glasses were good, but, had this not actually happened to me, I wouldn't have believed that they could handle so much. Honestly.
NousDefionsDoc
01-15-2005, 12:04
Thanks. I'm glad you're ok.
It's all fun and games and shooting glass until somebody loses an eye.
While I haven't had a ricochet, I have an M-Frame lens I've designated as my 'range lens', as it has a couple small scratches on it from brass that's come back and hit me. Without the glasses, the brass would have hit me dead on in the eye. I definately recommend Oakley M-Frames for shooting.
Now you see why I kept a few lenses around to show. People won't believe. We used to have a video of a lens surviving a rifle shot similar to the old Master Lock commercial.
A while back I was "written up" by Lenscrafters for refusing to dispense anything other than polycarb to a 10 year old boy who was the definite monster variety. His parents complained. I got the last laugh later when Lenscrafters and most optical companies made poly carb lenses mandatory for children below a certain age.
bberkley
01-15-2005, 13:29
Oakley used to have a store display of a mannequin head with a pair of their sunglasses with a bunch of shotgun pellets embedded in it. Needless to say, the mannequin head suffered more than the Oakleys.
I've been an Oakley customer for 15+ years, and not likely to change. In fact, I just picked up my first-ever pair of Rx lenses for my M-frame for shooting as I have some difficulty acquiring the front sight with Toric contacts.
Do you guys know if you can get these with correcting lenses?
Do you guys know if you can get these with correcting lenses?
"In fact, I just picked up my first-ever pair of Rx lenses for my M-frame for shooting"
Yes
"In fact, I just picked up my first-ever pair of Rx lenses for my M-frame for shooting"
Yes
DOH!
That's what you get for being comprehension impaired. Thanks!
(didn't know that's what Rx meant)
Rx is prescription.
Keep in mind that the safety advantages you speak of are the material and not the brand.
Oakleys are cool :cool: and I also like them. What you like about the Oakleys is the styling and not the safety which can be purchased otherwise. Besides the "cool" styling the lenses are optically correct. If you want a pair of Rx Oakleys, including all three lenses, you will pay a pretty $$$$ for them. If it is worth it to you by all means get them, otherwise realise there are more inexpensive glasses available. If I had the money I'd buy an M3 BMW.
bberkley
01-15-2005, 17:21
Terry,
I agree with you. There is a coolness factor to Oakleys, and they are spendy. My Rx lenses were $200. WileyX makes some good glasses, but I haven't tried them. I've always had good support from Oakley, even if its been my fault that I broke something.
I have another reason for liking the company, and thats what they did for Lance Armstrong when he was diagnosed with cancer. His French team dropped him (and there went his health insurance). Oakley stepped up and mandated to their carrier that they cover him (he is one of their sponsored athletes).
Oakleys are cool :cool: and I also like them. What you like about the Oakleys is the styling and not the safety which can be purchased otherwise. Besides the "cool" styling the lenses are optically correct. If you want a pair of Rx Oakleys, including all three lenses, you will pay a pretty $$$$ for them. If it is worth it to you by all means get them, otherwise realise there are more inexpensive glasses available. If I had the money I'd buy an M3 BMW.
Thanks!
Actually, I was thinking primarily of the lenses, and the styling as a plus. However, I won't hijack this thread and it's not time already to get a pair.
The glasses that are well worth the money if you need Rx lenses, are the ones that automatically, lighten or go dark.
I was sick and tired of changing glasses every time, I had to go from indoors to outdoors and back.
Had a team mate catch a 7.62x39 projectile in the middle of his forehead. Came back from a Pepper Popper which had a cratered surface from previous use.
No other damage than a small lump and small headache.
Team Sergeant
01-16-2005, 10:13
Worst I've heard of was while I was stationed on Okinawa. An ODA was instructing some Navy support types and were shooting steel with 9mm. The brass jacket came back and hit this female in the neck, right next to the carotid artery. The SF medic (my team mate) could not immediately locate the shard and took her to the hospital. After an x-ray they could see the shard, right where the medic thought it might be, sitting dangerously close to the carotid artery. The Navy female now sports a one inch scar next to her carotid artery.
Basenshukai, I've been hit with splatter and 230gr ricochets more times than I can count! You have not lived till you go into a 360 tire house shooting targets everywhere and have a 230 gr round hit a “Steel belted radial” and bounce back like someone shot it out of a “Wrist Rocket” back at you!
Glad to hear your lesson learned was a “low cost” lesson!
TS
Basenshukai
01-16-2005, 11:21
Worst I've heard of was while I was stationed on Okinawa. An ODA was instructing some Navy support types and were shooting steel with 9mm. The brass jacket came back and hit this female in the neck, right next to the carotid artery.
The same exact story was told to me about three days ago by a member of the other DA team in our company. Except, their team medic was able to pull out the brass jacket in the team room and stitched him up. It happened when his team leader was shooting steel some 35 m away in the SFAUC range. I believe that there was a safety message concerning shooting steel plates, but I think it had to do with 5.56 and not 9mm.
Basenshukai,
Incredible story; glad to hear you are ok! Thanks for sharing.
TRUST
what kind of target stands do you use for steel?
Do you angle the steel downward to reduce ricochets and spray?
Ok.....After reading all of this, the days of getting my guys to shoot steel are done. (Almost) no training value that steel can give that shooting at balloons can't.
Take Care...
G
NousDefionsDoc
01-24-2005, 19:36
Ok.....After reading all of this, the days of getting my guys to shoot steel are done. (Almost) no training value that steel can give that shooting at balloons can't.
Take Care...
G
I disagree, but they're your guys.
NDD,
Feel free to share your thoughts. Always happy to learn.
I had been using balloons where steel was not an option; but we have recently gone to a new range where there is a lot of steel to work with. Had the guys working on steel plates at our last session, but now I'm not sure it's worth the risk - I can run the same exercises using balloons in most cases without the safety headaches.
G
Ambush Master
01-24-2005, 20:37
Not sure where NDD is headed, but for me a Balloon vs Steel = a near miss on a balloon is a hit and only a SOLID hit on steel puts it down. Hell, a bullet in the dirt around a balloon is a hit !!!
The thing here I think is "Fixed" vs "Reactive" targets. Fixed tend to talk back !!
G -
how much training time do you spend blowing and placing balloons versus shooting? Do you pre fill them and have bags of them on hand?
I shoot steel all the time; it is a great feed back tool for training and you can run near constant relays of shooters w/ no cease fires or time running down to look at targets. Juts paint them a couple times per day. More time training and shooting.
the targets we use hook into the stand to angle them downward for safety.
Check this article out: http://www.policeone.com/police-products/training/shooting-range/articles/67903/ it is a re-print from the FBI Training Bulletin.
Ambush Master - You're right about a near miss - but it's easy to see the difference between a solid hit and a near miss. I'm not saying that it's a perfect solution, but I think it's a good one.
Gackman - will check the link; thanks mate. Time spent is minimal; we have a compressor (with air hose) that we use for cleaning, works well for blowing balloons up too! But nowhere near as fast as steel - there defintely is some downtime.
G
Smokin Joe
01-25-2005, 03:40
Have you any of you every used a can of tomato juice placed inside of a silhouette then put t-shirt over the slihouette to conceal the tomato juice. It takes awhile to setup sure, but try it on unsuspecting trainees and see who flinches and who works through the blood effect.
I have seen this stop a SWAT team butt cold in there tracks on a simulated vehicle assualt. There excuse was "we weren't expecting to see blood all over the inside of the car after the Sniper shot the target". Same thing with rookies they can shoot paper all day long but you put a little realism to the shooting and some will freeze.
Sorry for the hijack.......Glad you are okay Basenshukai
TitratetoEffect
01-29-2005, 08:20
Hey Guys,
This very subject came up the other day among a few of us 18D's, how important eye pro is! Anyway, if you don't get them issued there is a low cost way of getting Oakley glasses and other products such as boots and gloves. The only catch is that you have to be in the Military or some Government Agency. Contact to follow:
Rosalie Ortiz
Oakley Government Sales
Ph. 800.525.4334
Fax. 800.459.4336
roseoakleygov@hotmail.com
Give her a call and she will email you a pricelist and Statement of Agreement. Hope that helps.
Phil
VelociMorte
08-26-2005, 06:55
Polycarb lenses saved my sight also. I was at the range firing "factory reloads" through my Glock 19. I had loaded my mags, put on my eyes and ears, ran my target down range, and commenced firing. On the third round, my weapon blew apart in my hands. A double charge blew the case-head off. The blast went down throught the mag well, blowing the follower, spring, mag base-plate, and remaining 14 rounds out the bottom of the mag well, and into my left hand. The case-head and other brass fragments hit my eye protection directly over my left eye, and embedded in the lens. I set the weapon down, took a quick inventory of my digits, and picked up the mag parts. After re-assembly, the G-19 was fine.
I've spent many years studying (informally) terminal ballistics. On one occasion I was shooting various thicknesses of aluminum with various projectiles. I had set a block of 3'' (three inch) aluminum about the size of a brick 100 meters down range. I fired a nice hot 150gr 300 Win Mag at the aluminum block. The second I fired, the core of the projectile returned and struck me dead-center in the forehead with enough force to knock me on my ass and break the skin. For a second or two, I thought I was seriously wounded, but as no fountain of blood was shooting out of my head, I decided I was OK. The bullet core had landed on my bench, right next to my rifle.
My advice: Never shoot at targets that are harder than your projectiles without full PPE.
You gotta love Oakley's, been using Oakleys since they started their Rx program, now I'm a shareholder. I had steel fragments me at the 5 meter line and embed in the polycarb lens of my glasses. I have to send them back to Oakley to get overhauled but I can't stand to part with them. The only problem I have had with my Juliets are the rivets that hold the bridge and lens frames together are softer then the titanium frame. Resulting in the rivets wearing out causing the whole frame to loosen. Oakley fixes that for free. Balloons are fun but the sound of steel is nice to listen too.
I took a picture of my screwed up lens but couldn't attach it.
Glad you're okay! Training accidents suck!
The only problem I have had with my Juliets are the rivets that hold the bridge and lens frames together are softer then the titanium frame. Resulting in the rivets wearing out causing the whole frame to loosen. Oakley fixes that for free.
Think of it as a very small shear pin. I'd rather get a rivet replaced for free now and then than have to pay for new frames or earstems that wore out because of on overly hardened rivet.
Have you any of you every used a can of tomato juice placed inside of a silhouette then put t-shirt over the slihouette to conceal the tomato juice. It takes awhile to setup sure, but try it on unsuspecting trainees and see who flinches and who works through the blood effect.
My friend and I use this technique from time to time, although we use tomatoe sauce. Also when on a lower budget we use milk jugs filled with water and red food dye. Not as gruesome as the tomatoe sauce, and not as bad when you expect it, but still a better trainer than shooting at paper.
Think of it as a very small shear pin. I'd rather get a rivet replaced for free now and then than have to pay for new frames or earstems that wore out because of on overly hardened rivet.
Absolutely Razor!
Its a great design I just can't stand to part with them, Oakley indicated that the turn around is six to eight weeks. The gloom of winter will be here soon so I'll send them in.
Absolutely Razor!
Its a great design I just can't stand to part with them, Oakley indicated that the turn around is six to eight weeks. The gloom of winter will be here soon so I'll send them in.
If it is practical, if I consider a piece of equipment/tool to be very important, I try to get a spare to hold it into reserve. Maybe buying a second pair would be the answer. Unless your Irish, Both pairs will break about the same time.
The Reaper
08-31-2005, 14:35
Two is one, and one is none.
Anything important needs to have a spare or three.
PACE.
TR
VelociMorte
09-02-2005, 08:46
Speaking of interesting targets...try this one:
Find an area devoid of flammable material in a radius of at least 50 meters.
Fill a clear gallon milk jug with gasoline. It must be brimming full.
Light the top on fire. It will burn like a candle.
Run at least 25 meters away from the target.
Using the highest velocity rifle cartridges you can get your hands on, shoot the jug about two inces from the bottom. I have found Reminton Accelerator rounds in 30.06 to be especially effective. Don't know if you can get them any more. These fire a .223 caliber sabotted projectile at 4080fps. You need at least 3800fps and a soft jacketed bullet to acheive the full effect.
The gallon of gas will vaporize instantaneously, and the resulting fireball will rise about fifty to a hundred feet into the air, looking like a mushroom cloud.
It's an interesting break from shooting at thin planes of reformed tree fibers.
Gene Econ
09-02-2005, 20:38
Guys:
I have had parts of M-118 Special Ball hit me after hitting steel targets at 200 to 300 yards distance. One was almost the entire bullet and it smacked me on the leg.
I have also had .45 ACP literally bounce off of bowling pins at ten yards and come right back and hit me. The .45 I saw coming back but it was a bit faster than me moving. I have seen issued 9mm bounce off of auto poppers at thirty yards and fly well behind the firing line. I have tried angling steel to no effect.
I use the Oakley set that is a RFI item for units deploying. Three lenses that are easy to interchange. Problem with these and other eye pro is they will fog up when it is cold and damp out and you are sweating. These Oaklies seem to fit better than the Wiley X but both fog up no matter what you smear on the lenses.
Everything I get back from Iraq is that the eye pro are true eye savers and the brigde I am associated with swears by the Oakley type. $300.00 a set is what they apparently cost.
I am not an advocate of balloons when I can use steel but my steel is always a good distance away from the shooter and he is wearing eye pro, body armor, and the coveted kevlar hemmett. I would prefer frangiable but the Army isn't about to buy it for the conventional side so I have to use ball and thus have to deal with additional risk when using steel.
I tried balloons a couple of times but my training involves distance and I needed two Joes to blow up balloons while two others were busy following us through our course of fire with garbage bags full of balloons, trying to attach them to the cardboard targets I also use. Try that when it is 40 degrees, heavy rain, and a 10 MPH wind sometime. I stopped using balloons and rely on cardboard targets where we can quickly get to them to see results, and steel targets at ranges of 100 yards plus.
Gene
Speaking of interesting targets...try this one:
Find an area devoid of flammable material in a radius of at least 50 meters.
Fill a clear gallon milk jug with gasoline. It must be brimming full.
Light the top on fire. It will burn like a candle.
Run at least 25 meters away from the target.
Using the highest velocity rifle cartridges you can get your hands on, shoot the jug about two inces from the bottom. I have found Reminton Accelerator rounds in 30.06 to be especially effective. Don't know if you can get them any more. These fire a .223 caliber sabotted projectile at 4080fps. You need at least 3800fps and a soft jacketed bullet to acheive the full effect.
The gallon of gas will vaporize instantaneously, and the resulting fireball will rise about fifty to a hundred feet into the air, looking like a mushroom cloud.
It's an interesting break from shooting at thin planes of reformed tree fibers.
With the price of gas nowadays? Nooooo thank you! haha :eek: :D
I would love to have another pair $300 for one was hard enough on an honest cops wage! Good point though.
Shooting steel or any direct feedback targets beats paper any day. Just remember don't shoot steel closer then 7 Meters.
Speaking of interesting targets...try this one:
Find an area devoid of flammable material in a radius of at least 50 meters.
Fill a clear gallon milk jug with gasoline. It must be brimming full.
Light the top on fire. It will burn like a candle.
Run at least 25 meters away from the target.
Using the highest velocity rifle cartridges you can get your hands on, shoot the jug about two inces from the bottom. I have found Reminton Accelerator rounds in 30.06 to be especially effective. Don't know if you can get them any more. These fire a .223 caliber sabotted projectile at 4080fps. You need at least 3800fps and a soft jacketed bullet to acheive the full effect.
The gallon of gas will vaporize instantaneously, and the resulting fireball will rise about fifty to a hundred feet into the air, looking like a mushroom cloud.
It's an interesting break from shooting at thin planes of reformed tree fibers.
LMAO!!! Gonna give that a try when I get bk to TX!
Commo Dude
09-26-2005, 06:02
Check out "Speer RHT Ammunition". It is good stuff for indoor steel plate trgts.
I'm a big fan of the Rx Oakleys. Been using mine for a year and a half out here. They cost big $$$$, but were more than worth it.
Check out "Speer RHT Ammunition". It is good stuff for indoor steel plate trgts.
I'm a big fan of the Rx Oakleys. Been using mine for a year and a half out here. They cost big $$$$, but were more than worth it.
I'll second that on Rx Oakleys. I've had some polarized Whiskers for two months now, and they are fantastic. The prescription is ground so well that there is absolutely no distortion throughout the entire field of view, which is hard to achieve with a curved/wraparound lens. They were about $350, but will be deductible as a medical expense come tax time. Oakley had them to me in under a week, BTW.