View Full Version : Hacking an Act of War?
Sen. McCain said today that the Russian hacking of email accounts was an act of war. I'm not overly informed on the definition of espionage as an act of war or the acts of misinformation (rather, misappropriation of information), but the comments by McCain have the appearance of being true and I trust his POV. All that being said, if we choose to retaliate against the Russians then what about the Chinese? Also, do we really feel we can prevail in a cyber WW3 as we are currently staffed/configured?
President Obama has received a much-anticipated classified report on alleged Russian and other foreign meddling in American elections, heightening interest in what evidence the file contains as Republicans spar over the cyberattack claims – and wait for their chance to see the findings themselves.
Director of National Intelligence James Clapper and other top intelligence officials visited the White House Thursday afternoon, to brief the president on the materials.
President-elect Donald Trump is to be briefed on the report on Friday.
(more at: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/05/whats-inside-obama-gets-report-on-russia-hacking-as-republicans-spar-on-claims.html)
Peregrino
01-05-2017, 14:48
Mc Cain is an idiot
Masterful understatement. I didn't realize you were capable of such restraint. I certainly wouldn't have been.
(No - that was NOT sarcasm.)
Being talked into a war with Russia over embarrassing emails of a civilian political operative or operatives or even a candidate is beyond stupid.
I almost fell over when I watched McCain essentially lead with that comment.
Senator McCain is a dog-gone war hero - nothing he says is without merit.
He is the best damn republican in the entire democratic party.
ddoering
01-05-2017, 18:05
As the Surrenderer in Chief he should know what an act of war is. He had a sideline seat to one for 6 years.
So exposing the truth is an Act of War. Hhmmm. Who'd of thunk?
Peregrino
01-05-2017, 18:13
As the Surrenderer in Chief he should know what an act of war is. He had a sideline seat to one for 6 years.
So exposing the truth is an Act of War. Hhmmm. Who'd of thunk?
It is when your candidate doesn't win and the only thing left is excuses and blame game. The world knows how he feels about Trump.
No.
It's not an act of war.
If it is, we are at war with most of our NATO allies, Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, Canada, Mexico, Luxembourg.... etc.
If you think we haven't hacked them, you're not paying attention. This is about a reality TV star turned politician insulting him publicly, and his response to it.
Hacking is espionage, conducted by everyone with a keyboard and an internet connection. He knows this isn't true, just throwing more sand in the gears.
Yeah...after all, we don't hack other governments and our alleged allies don't attempt to hack us!:rolleyes:
McCain will say just about anything to stay relevant! It's time for him to go to pasture and fade into the sunset.
rubberneck
01-05-2017, 21:19
If hacking is an act of war does that mean our own government has declared war on its own citizens? I sure as hell haven't given them permission to collect my phone calls and emails under the guise of national security.
Trapper John
01-05-2017, 21:20
I recall seeing a chart somewhere that showed various acts that constitute war or not. Cyber attacks were in the grey area, however some were considered an act of war, shutting down an electrical grid for instance was considered an act of war.
Hacking? YGTBSM!!
I'll try to find this chart and post it but I mention it because I know someone here has seen the same thing.
mark46th
01-05-2017, 21:22
Boy, if hacking is such an evil thing to do to an enemy, I'm glad the NSA isn't trying to hack other countries.
Old Dog New Trick
01-05-2017, 21:31
So this is just about the right place to say this.
Anyone else find it interesting that Trump has pretty much called the intelligence community ignorant and ineffective and the two most ignorant people in the community - Clapper and Brennen - are having a conniption over being called out for years of intelligence failures?
I have little doubt as to the truth behind the facts that Russia as a state agency did not use former KGB tactics to "hack" anyone's secure government server * anymore than a basement dwelling 41 (see I reversed 14) year old living with his parents playing with his Wii (wee).
* oh yeah, it wasn't a secure government server that got "phished" by clicking on a hyperlink.
I'd really like to see the spin doctors at DIA explaining how Podestas iPhone and Chillaries' private server were not the targets of countless rogue basement dwelling hackers the world over. :munchin
Oh and yes the "Honorable" John McStain (Maverick) is an idiot. It's no wonder he lost the 2008 campaign to a community organizer.
Oh and yes the "Honorable" John McStain (Maverick) is an idiot. It's no wonder he lost the 2008 campaign to a community organizer.
The candidate McCain wanted to win in 2008, won.
Otherwise, he would have campaigned like he actually wanted to be elected.
Old Dog New Trick
01-05-2017, 22:56
The candidate McCain wanted to win in 2008, won.
Otherwise, he would have campaigned like he actually wanted to be elected.
Touché
The Maverick McCain plays both sides of the political aisle like a transgendered hermaphrodite uses the bathroom of their choice - whichever one that is.
Scimitar
01-06-2017, 04:28
No.
It's not an act of war.
If it is, we are at war with most of our NATO allies, Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, Canada, Mexico, Luxembourg.... etc.
If you think we haven't hacked them, you're not paying attention. This is about a reality TV star turned politician insulting him publicly, and his response to it.
Hacking is espionage, conducted by everyone with a keyboard and an internet connection. He knows this isn't true, just throwing more sand in the gears.
According to 18 U.S. Code § 2331 an Act of War requires either a declartion of war by a soverign state or direct Armed Conflict (read kinetic). Clear as mud? What concerns me is the Chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee doesn't know the differnce.
S
When it comes to cyber, I kind of reckon that if it causes substantial damage akin to the attacks on Ukrainian critical infrastructure, and IF you can attribute the attacks to a specific group or individual, maybe it's ok for one or more to go missing or have an accident as a quid pro quo deterrent.
Shoot an IED designer in the face or push a foreign offensive political/kinetic cyber tool designer in front of a bus. I don't see much of a difference.
I don't think the size of the community that can conduct offensive cyber with real world critical infrastructure consequences is that big(no easy money in it on th4 offensive side) but it would certainly be getting bigger.
Thankfully the requirement for broad and deep high specificity skill sets to do really bad things makes it less likely(outside of sovereign states collecting such talent) due to the need to put a fairly substantial team together.
If any or many of them believe such attacks to be the cyber equivalent of a non attributable IED, then I would think a very aggressive response could be necessary as a deterrent.
Rumours abound, including the FBI reportedly having broad and deep "relationships" with the US domestic hacker community.
Malignant cyber talent seems to be focused mostly on monetising crime as it's easier and safer than kidnapping, extortion, theft etc in real world "meat space".
What if some of that high end talent kicked over to political terrorism?
Maybe we don't have to shoot any high end hackers in the face, or push them in front of a bus.
But planning for it would probably be worth the effort and making target community hackers THINK they will get pushed in front of a bus if they go beyond theft and into political/kinetic cyber wouldn't be a bad thing would it?
I don't recall Germany declaring a state of war when we hacked Merckel's shit a few yrs ago....
I think it just caused a short lived shit storm, but that's abt it...
Badger52
01-06-2017, 06:39
Any core router with a .mil or a juicy .gov/.com extension gets hammered 1,000's of times a DAY with exploit attempts. This is why people take steps to secure them beyond User=HRC Password=Chelsea. The RNC (a private entity) got warned & took steps, including offered Fed assistance; the DNC (a private entity) got warned & blithely went back to making sure they had a spare Lithium pack for Hillary's next speaking engagement. Inactions have consequences. As to Podesta, he would've been better just to send the $65K to that guy in Nigeria...
Some will feign outrage, pretty much those who can't stomach seeing the emperor unclothed. Others will welcome the transparency which, when pondered, should be found to exceed all the racial healing that has taken place over the last 8 yrs. Mostly they're just pissed that they got owned by anyone. And the Arkansas Syndicate has a remedy for that.
Trapper John
01-06-2017, 07:08
So this is just about the right place to say this.
Anyone else find it interesting that Trump has pretty much called the intelligence community ignorant and ineffective and the two most ignorant people in the community - Clapper and Brennen - are having a conniption over being called out for years of intelligence failures?
I have little doubt as to the truth behind the facts that Russia as a state agency did not use former KGB tactics to "hack" anyone's secure government server * anymore than a basement dwelling 41 (see I reversed 14) year old living with his parents playing with his Wii (wee).
* oh yeah, it wasn't a secure government server that got "phished" by clicking on a hyperlink.
I'd really like to see the spin doctors at DIA explaining how Podestas iPhone and Chillaries' private server were not the targets of countless rogue basement dwelling hackers the world over. :munchin
Oh and yes the "Honorable" John McStain (Maverick) is an idiot. It's no wonder he lost the 2008 campaign to a community organizer.
:lifter
...just out of curiosity
Have any of the democrats addressed the veracity of the e-mail "hack" in as much as the content of the corruption uncovered by this horrible e-mail intrusion?
It seems like a third party performed some digital intrusion -just like the US does all of the time and now the democrats are pissed off that there were embarrassing messages released that shined the light on corrupt practices.
Russians = bad
corrupt American politicians = just as bad
enemies can be foreign OR domestic but the press will never ever try to boost their rating with such inconvenient matters as the truth about democrats
maybe they shouldn't have had illegal servers
maybe they should be so gullible to phishing attempts
maybe they should be liars and cheats
Its a shame our nation has such disingenuous leadership
bblhead672
01-06-2017, 08:24
Sen. McLame is to be trusted? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.....
Peregrino
01-06-2017, 08:29
----- Its a shame our nation has such disingenuous leadership.
A people will have the government they deserve. (Been said by so many people from Aristotle on that it's generally accepted as a universal truth and impossible to attribute.) Current leadership is reflective of the demands of the unwashed ignorati and their progressive puppet masters.
As bad as it is, those of us who have a clue should all be thanking God we don't have a true democracy.
(http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/7631-a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it)
Maybe those "dead white guys" (the Founding Fathers) really did know what they were doing.
Maybe those "dead white guys" (the Founding Fathers) really did know what they were doing.
Indeed they did. They had a true purpose other than their own personal needs and desires. They were thinking about their country and not simply themselves and their benefit packages upon retirement.
bblhead672
01-06-2017, 08:59
Indeed they did. They had a true purpose other than their own personal needs and desires. They were thinking about their country and not simply themselves and their benefit packages upon retirement.
And they had no desire to be "career" politicians.
Indeed they did. They had a true purpose other than their own personal needs and desires. They were thinking about their country and not simply themselves and their benefit packages upon retirement.
/\ /\ /\ "like" Indeed...
Some good stuff in this thread. To follow up on how stupid McCain's comment was...if "hacking" were actually "an act of war" I'm sure glad that no one ever physically invaded undersea fiber optic cables or conducted warrantless searches and data collection of phone calls, conversations or online activities...everyone knows only Apple can unlock an IPhone - Bureau said so.
McCain's just pissed that he only just now found out that he could pay to have hackers change his grades, have his pension increased, his bank account balance enhanced...but still no hack for increasing his IQ or improving his personality.
The good news out of all this is that McCain and Lindsey Graham have both signed up for penetration testing...based on their comments they obviously have no idea what this is...but...it sounded like a hoot...get closer to the people.
These folks are "politically elite" dupes in a broader disinformation/disruption campaign...sow the seeds of division in the USA and watch what's possible.
ETA: In fairness, the hacking of Podesta's (and similar folks) email was the subject of Maverick's comments - there could of course be hacking of a much more serious nature which could very well constitute an act of war. The hacking of a more serious nature was not the topic of the day.
Badger52
01-06-2017, 15:35
I just did an initial skim of the 25-pg UNCLAS version of the DNI "assessment" that just got released by Clapper (got the PDF from Scribd but it'll be out there all over at the speed of electrons). In the spirit of not wanting to be hurtful I'll just sugar-coat things by saying it's a piece of crap. They go way back in history into patterns of Soviet effort, including trying to divine Carter's foreign policy goals, OMG Occupy Wall Street, :eek: RT is a national propaganda tool [because apparently US MSM aren't] etc. Anyone who ever said a hurtful thing about Clinton/Democrats/liberal causes is a bad guy. OMG, this thing is So.Bad. I need one of those ROFLMAO followed by puking smilies. It is "It's All a Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy!" writ with some nice templated cover sheets. I'm so glad the ministers in the current North Korean, excuse me, US administration could amazingly come together & agree on this. Buried in the middle on pg. 13:
Russian Cyber Intrusions Into State and Local Electoral Boards.
Russian intelligence accessed elements of multiple state or local electoral boards. Since early 2014, Russian intelligence has researched US electoral processes and related technology and equipment.
- DHS assesses that the types of systems we observed Russian actors targeting or compromising are not involved in vote tallying. (last emphasis mine)
I'm waiting for Putin to release his unclassified assessment of the machinations involved in a regime change in Ukraine.
:munchin
frostfire
01-06-2017, 15:45
I just did an initial skim of the 25-pg UNCLAS version of the DNI "assessment" that just got released by Clapper (got the PDF from Scribd but it'll be out there all over at the speed of electrons). In the spirit of not wanting to be hurtful I'll just sugar-coat things by saying it's a piece of crap. They go way back in history into patterns of Soviet effort, including trying to divine Carter's foreign policy goals, OMG Occupy Wall Street, :eek: RT is a national propaganda tool [because apparently US MSM aren't] etc. Anyone who ever said a hurtful thing about Clinton/Democrats/liberal causes is a bad guy. OMG, this thing is So.Bad. I need one of those ROFLMAO followed by puking smilies. It is "It's All a Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy!" writ with some nice templated cover sheets. I'm so glad the ministers in the current North Korean, excuse me, US administration could amazingly come together & agree on this. Buried in the middle on pg. 13:
Russian Cyber Intrusions Into State and Local Electoral Boards.
Russian intelligence accessed elements of multiple state or local electoral boards. Since early 2014, Russian intelligence has researched US electoral processes and related technology and equipment.
- DHS assesses that the types of systems we observed Russian actors targeting or compromising are not involved in vote tallying. (last emphasis mine)
I'm waiting for Putin to release his unclassified assessment of the machinations involved in a regime change in Ukraine.
:munchin
what is wrong with you? So much hard work, your, mine, and everyone else's tax money went to that report. At the very least we should trust our own ICreport. After all, surely it is bipartisan, accurate, bias-free, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Right? :boohoo
Badger52
01-06-2017, 15:52
what is wrong with you? I must've been doin' some PM when the kool-aid got handed out.
:cool:
Sen. McLame is to be trusted? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.....
Appreciate your POV. I personally don't know the guy other than his service, and I haven't read the congressional record so I don't know how he has voted, etc. I guess he must be a real no good son-of-a-bitch.
I guess he must be a real no good son-of-a-bitch.
I'm surprised that his political career wasn't Forrestaled before it began. He may have been innocent under further investigation, but the rumors say otherwise.
Pat
Old Dog New Trick
01-06-2017, 21:28
Appreciate your POV. I personally don't know the guy other than his service, and I haven't read the congressional record so I don't know how he has voted, etc. I guess he must be a real no good son-of-a-bitch.
Larry, you only need to check his voting record over the past 30 years on issues related to the VA, mil retirement benefits and disability for service.
Once you see just how big and long his dagger is you might understand the pain he has inflicted on the services and departments that provide so much support for his few years of captivity.
I really don't want to recall all the negatives from his service, but I'm with others that think he's a slimeball who hung onto daddy's coat tails long enough to be a marginal pilot at worst and a dishonest POW at best.
Peregrino
01-06-2017, 23:32
Larry, you only need to check his voting record over the past 30 years on issues related to the VA, mil retirement benefits and disability for service.
Once you see just how big and long his dagger is you might understand the pain he has inflicted on the services and departments that provide so much support for his few years of captivity.
I really don't want to recall all the negatives from his service, but I'm with others that think he's a slimeball who hung onto daddy's coat tails long enough to be a marginal pilot at worst and a dishonest POW at best.
I would also recommend looking at his record WRT POW/MIA families.
I would also recommend looking at his record WRT POW/MIA families.
...and ODNT
Thanks for your notes.
I'm 0 for many in conclusions. I still think mac 'n cheese from a box is good for me.
Found this link re: POW/MIA which includes notes re: families, but suspect there are others. So much I can't understand about people. Sometimes I feel as dumb as the clay.
http://www.vvof.org/mccain_hides.htm
Anyway, sirs, thanks again.