Another reason why not to legalize pot

[TOMAHAWK9521]

I was wondering when this would finally go national. A close friend of mine is a nurse in Loveland, CO working in cardiology and physical therapy. When we last spoke last spring, she was telling me how much she regretted ever voting for legalizing pot in Colorado. Prior to working with patients who happen to be chronic pot smokers, she had never heard of this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mysterious-illness-tied-to-marijuana-use-on-the-rise-in-states-with-legal-weed/

I still expect the champions of 64, or whichever ballot it was they voted to get pot legal in CO, will be frothing at the mouth in vehement denial about this.

[CAARNG 68W]

Sounds like a TV disease

[Remington Raidr]

I was wondering when this would finally go national. A close friend of mine is a nurse in Loveland, CO working in cardiology and physical therapy. When we last spoke last spring, she was telling me how much she regretted ever voting for legalizing pot in Colorado. Prior to working with patients who happen to be chronic pot smokers, she had never heard of this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mysterious-illness-tied-to-marijuana-use-on-the-rise-in-states-with-legal-weed/

I still expect the champions of 64, or whichever ballot it was they voted to get pot legal in CO, will be frothing at the mouth in vehement denial about this.

THIS is the kind of information that will put a damper on people's desire to smoke MJ. The hardcore will do it anyhow, but I think that just like in the 60's when it was "Kool", the user will be separated by everyone else who was an experimenter, that knows or realizes that weed is just another dead end. They majority of people don't use it, but it is wrong to make criminals out of those who do.:rolleyes:

[JGC2]

This sounds like at most a reason not to smoke it, rather than a reason for it to be illegal. Those are two very different things in my opinion.

[Flagg]

I was wondering when this would finally go national. A close friend of mine is a nurse in Loveland, CO working in cardiology and physical therapy. When we last spoke last spring, she was telling me how much she regretted ever voting for legalizing pot in Colorado. Prior to working with patients who happen to be chronic pot smokers, she had never heard of this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mysterious-illness-tied-to-marijuana-use-on-the-rise-in-states-with-legal-weed/

I still expect the champions of 64, or whichever ballot it was they voted to get pot legal in CO, will be frothing at the mouth in vehement denial about this.

I reckon the costs are high for legalised marijuana.

Higher lung cancer rates per person than for tobacco smoking.

Higher mental health consequences.

Higher risk of impaired operator caused accidents.

Higher THC levels from relentless competitive commercial improvement/iterations.

But how do all of those costs(and others) stack up against reduced law enforcement/judicial/prison costs and increased taxation revenue?

[JJ_BPK]

Any time you start analyzing the problem using words like CRONIC & LONG TERM user, you get to win a prize.. :mad:

Nothing to see here,, move along,,

The Ministry of Truth,
Choom Gang member,
and Stoner in Charge..

[Golf1echo]

I saw that on the local news. Imagine that, smoke doesn't belong in the lungs and excess carbon is a challenge for the body to process.

I was selfishly hoping many other States would legalize marijuana to share in the 2nd and 3rd effects. Here there are double digit categories of beggars, homeless, and mentally ill subscribing to the paradox of self medication....now in the cold it is very sad to see, no doubt some will not make it through this Winter. I see the police up and down the front range trying to break up the homeless camps and get these folks into shelters, one more sketchy blanket isn't going to do it in negative temps. Then there are the beggars, like many places it can be a deception with pan handlers with many wearing very nice kit and driving to their stage, others trying to survive bad choices...the point here is it is constant and incessant...every where you go. I haven't figured out how they license grow operations yet but they are growing a massive amount of ganja in this town, making renting a larger spaces for business more expensive than in traditional markets where there are not such pressures. Far more than the only two Retail shops in an adjacent town can sell, medical outlets are much more prevalent but still?

Not that it matters but I always thought it should be decriminalized not legalized but I understand that would interfere with revenue from taxation. Besides lets face it, this grand experiment here in Colorado was fast paced into existence and the long term costs really have yet to be dealt with nor fully understood. We know the costs of smoking and alcohol abuse so we should be able to project long term costs of legalizing marijuana and they will be significant.

Remember the add of two young men in their parents basement laughing at an add cautioning of the abuses," Nothing ever happens to me. Yeah nothing ever happens to me either"...

[Golf1echo]

Duplicate Post

[VVVV]

Sounds exactly how I feel, if I eat my neighbor's chili a couple of days in a row. I'll have to see if a hot shower helps.:rolleyes:

[Divemaster]

I'm more worried about the increase in impaired drivers, which can directly impact me and mine, than I am about the internal effects on some red-eyed slacker with no more ambition than getting to and from the local pot shop.

[Peregrino]

I'm more worried about the increase in impaired drivers, which can directly impact me and mine, than I am about the internal effects on some red-eyed slacker with no more ambition than getting to and from the local pot shop.

Concur!

[Scimitar]

I love this paraphrased quote from the CBS clip.

Now that I'm off the MJ, my symptoms have gone; no more throwing up, no more abdomonal pain. So now my motivation has returned.

LMAO, no chance it was the MJ and not the pain causing lack of mitivation.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

S

[Flagg]

I'm more worried about the increase in impaired drivers, which can directly impact me and mine, than I am about the internal effects on some red-eyed slacker with no more ambition than getting to and from the local pot shop.

That's the question I keep asking:

What is the legal definition of inpairment for marijuana/cannabis?

I have to admit to being generally Pro legalization for what I believe to be net positive total measurable costs.

But I am hung up on the definition of impairment.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

You should be more concerned about the drivers around you who are using cell phones when you're in your car. Not everybody smokes pot. But damn near everyone has cell phones. And I see jackasses around me who are texting/talking and not paying attention to their driving every time I'm behind the wheel, without exception. Having your attention diverted by your cell phone while driving causes at least as much impairment as being intoxicated.

Also, lets not forget that both tobacco and alcohol are perfectly legal, kill thousands each year, have zero therapeutic value, and nobody is freaking out about them. I don't know if people are aware of this, but if you smoke too many cigarettes or drink too much booze, those will both make you barf as well. This is the first time I've heard of CHS. But there's a simple and elegant solution, and it's this thing called moderation.

In CO alone in 2015, tax revenue from dispensary sales was around $130 million. But who needs things like good roads and good schools? Our dipshit legislators here in NE are flipping out right now because we share a border with CO. I am reminded of a not dissimilar situation involving gambling and casinos here in the 90's. Casinos were on the ballot, and lost, because the people in charge here (along with the majority of voters at the time) are a bunch of uptight puritans. IA was like "We'll take those casinos." Council Bluffs IA, which I can see from my window from across the river, used to be a total shithole. Care to guess what happend? I'll tell you. IA got those casinos. So now, Council Bluffs is transformed. Good roads. Good schools. Public art. A nice place to visit and live. NE could have had all of those wonderful things, but because a bunch of stuffed shirts are in charge here, all of that revenue goes across the river now. Hell, I too go across the river now to shop and see movies, because it's NICE over there!

If the concern is that you're going to have impaired people around you because pot is legal, I've got news. Before it was legal, you still had impaired people around you. Go to your nearest bar, and I can guarantee that place will be packed full of impaired people.

You can have the illusion of safety or you can have freedom. Choose one. I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll choose freedom every time. No contest.

[bblhead672]

You should be more concerned about the drivers around you who are using cell phones when you're in your car. Not everybody smokes pot. But damn near everyone has cell phones. And I see jackasses around me who are texting/talking and not paying attention to their driving every time I'm behind the wheel, without exception. Having your attention diverted by your cell phone while driving causes at least as much impairment as being intoxicated.

Also, lets not forget that both tobacco and alcohol are perfectly legal, kill thousands each year, have zero therapeutic value, and nobody is freaking out about them. I don't know if people are aware of this, but if you smoke too many cigarettes or drink too much booze, those will both make you barf as well. This is the first time I've heard of CHS. But there's a simple and elegant solution, and it's this thing called moderation.

In CO alone in 2015, tax revenue from dispensary sales was around $130 million. But who needs things like good roads and good schools? Our dipshit legislators here in NE are flipping out right now because we share a border with CO. I am reminded of a not dissimilar situation involving gambling and casinos here in the 90's. Casinos were on the ballot, and lost, because the people in charge here (along with the majority of voters at the time) are a bunch of uptight puritans. IA was like "We'll take those casinos." Council Bluffs IA, which I can see from my window from across the river, used to be a total shithole. Care to guess what happend? I'll tell you. IA got those casinos. So now, Council Bluffs is transformed. Good roads. Good schools. Public art. A nice place to visit and live. NE could have had all of those wonderful things, but because a bunch of stuffed shirts are in charge here, all of that revenue goes across the river now. Hell, I too go across the river now to shop and see movies, because it's NICE over there!

If the concern is that you're going to have impaired people around you because pot is legal, I've got news. Before it was legal, you still had impaired people around you. Go to your nearest bar, and I can guarantee that place will be packed full of impaired people.

You can have the illusion of safety or you can have freedom. Choose one. I can't speak for anybody else, but I'll choose freedom every time. No contest.

Agreed...moderation in everything is a good idea. With the possible exceptions of heterosexual sex and buying guns/ammo.

[11Ber]

To me it is about having the freedom to choose. Alcohol and tobacco cause tons of physical and mental damage to abusers and "social" users alike but we have no problem saying those are allowed. But marijuana is persona non grata? If you truly believe in liberty and small government and states rights, then you cannot justify a federal ban on marijuana to me.

[PSM]

. . . a bunch of uptight puritans.

(Just an FYI: Puritans have been libeled and slandered for far too long. Puritans were not prudes, they wanted to purify, purge, the Church of England of Roman Catholic influence. That is all, thank you for your attention. ;))

Pat

[frostfire]

To me it is about having the freedom to choose.

Unfortunately individual choices affect the collective mass, and the US as a whole is not keen on letting individual reap what they sow. Sanctity of life, I suppose. If you go to the ER drunk, we won't let you sleep it off. We'll detox you! Add that the plethora of lawsuits. So when enough people are causing financial toll due to poor choices, government regulates (and interest groups influence).

Having worked with the cycle of abuse and addiction, I don't buy the argument of if smoking and drinking are good to go, why not add more to the list. Nope. Of all the (habitual) pot smokers I have encountered, perhaps only one could pass himself as outstanding citizen.

...or maybe I'm just biased from federal agencies drug policy ;)

[scooter]

Unfortunately individual choices affect the collective mass, and the US as a whole is not keen on letting individual reap what they sow. Sanctity of life, I suppose. If you go to the ER drunk, we won't let you sleep it off. We'll detox you! Add that the plethora of lawsuits. So when enough people are causing financial toll due to poor choices, government regulates (and interest groups influence).

Having worked with the cycle of abuse and addiction, I don't buy the argument of if smoking and drinking are good to go, why not add more to the list. Nope. Of all the (habitual) pot smokers I have encountered, perhaps only one could pass himself as outstanding citizen.

...or maybe I'm just biased from federal agencies drug policy ;)

I personally feel that, while bad, the illegalization of drugs has caused far more problems for the country than drugs themselves. Most of the lawlessness on the southern border, and a whole lot of gang violence, are directly tied to the drug economy. Making drugs illegal isn't stopping anyone from using, but it is feeding an entire criminal enterprise that makes this country more dangerous, siphons off law enforcement resources, and aids the government in becoming more and more intrusive. Prohibition was repealed for the same reasons. This really isn't any different.

[cbtengr]

I personally feel that, while bad, the illegalization of drugs has caused far more problems for the country than drugs themselves. Most of the lawlessness on the southern border, and a whole lot of gang violence, are directly tied to the drug economy. Making drugs illegal isn't stopping anyone from using, but it is feeding an entire criminal enterprise that makes this country more dangerous, siphons off law enforcement resources, and aids the government in becoming more and more intrusive. Prohibition was repealed for the same reasons. This really isn't any different.

Scooter you make a lot of very valid points, but with that being said let's say that all drugs are legalized. if we only do pot the heroin addicts are gonna feel discriminated against. They will have to be legalized for all and that will include those who serve in the military. I served in the pot head army post Vietnam War and I thought it sucked. Have you served or do you now serve with individuals who knowingly use drugs?

My two brothers were abusers who started with pot and then went on to destroy their lives with harder drugs. My thoughts tend to mirror Frostfire's.

[scooter]

Drugs suck, drugs are bad, and I have no problem with employers (military included) banning their employees from using them. That said, the segment of people that feel the need to drugs are going to do so whether they are illegal or not. Other countries have gone down the legalization path without the apocalypse ensuing. The government banning drugs because "they are bad for you, and we know better" never sat right with me. We went down that road with booze, then backed off when we realized we made a mistake.

I've never done drugs or felt the need to, but I've served with guys who have, they are just fine. One force recon medic told me he used to do crack before joining and loved it.... I have heard stories about the army from the late 70s, and agree we should avoid going back there. I'm fine with a military ban on drugs on effectiveness grounds.

As for the effectiveness of our current policy..... Look, you can find cocaine or crack cocaine in every county in America, and you can't grow the shit in most of North America. We are just torching money and giving Uncle Sam more grounds to extend their nose into shit they should stay out of. Drugs aren't going anywhere. We really need to find a better policy instead of doubling down on our current failures because "drugs are bad".

[GratefulCitizen]

The Constitution matters more than any "good" cause.
It took a constitutional amendment to prohibit alcohol, because that is not an enumerated power of the federal government.

If an issue is important enough to warrant ceding of power to the federal government, then it is important enough to change the Constitution.
Anything else is an issue for the States.

[VVVV]

Scooter you make a lot of very valid points, but with that being said let's say that all drugs are legalized. if we only do pot the heroin addicts are gonna feel discriminated against. They will have to be legalized for all and that will include those who serve in the military. I served in the pot head army post Vietnam War and I thought it sucked. Have you served or do you now serve with individuals who knowingly use drugs?

My two brothers were abusers who started with pot and then went on to destroy their lives with harder drugs. My thoughts tend to mirror Frostfire's.

Alcohol is legal, did you serve with individuals who knowingly consumed alcohol?

Alcohol is legal, are airline pilots permitted to drink in uniform, or 8 to 12 hours before flying?

[Streck-Fu]

Sorry, missed that this was bump of an older thread... will keep post original.

This sounds like at most a reason not to smoke it, rather than a reason for it to be illegal. Those are two very different things in my opinion.

Absolutely. :lifter

The War on Drugs has failed in epic fashion and has done next to nothing to restrict drug use or availability while costing Trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.

In areas where legalized or decriminalized, use may spike initially but nearly universally declines after that spike. There are many indications that in Colorado, use is down among teens after legalization.

[Oldrotorhead]

To me it is about having the freedom to choose. Alcohol and tobacco cause tons of physical and mental damage to abusers and "social" users alike but we have no problem saying those are allowed. But marijuana is persona non grata? If you truly believe in liberty and small government and states rights, then you cannot justify a federal ban on marijuana to me.

I agree with you, but even with small government and freedom to choose should there limits? I really don't care what people do with their lives as long as it doesn't negatively effect me. Should there be a limit set somewhere, maybe herion? Crack? Meth? I people use freedom to choose herion why should taxpayers shoulder the cost of Narcan?

[LongWire]

For Fuck sakes!!!! Just because its been legal in a few states now for a couple of years doesn't mean that there weren't chronic users before.....I'm talking about you California, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington, just to name a couple. This has never come up before? Bullshit, anyone who overuses any substance, be it alcohol, drugs or otherwise takes risks at having an adverse reaction to said substance. Fuck, eat too many carrots or too much asparagus and you'll know that too!!!

So new crowds are exposed to Chronic use and some can't handle their shit? Jesus, what a Non story story....... DJ had it right, everything within moderation!!!

Nothing to see here........

[scooter]

For Fuck sakes!!!! Just because its been legal in a few states now for a couple of years doesn't mean that there weren't chronic users before.....I'm talking about you California, Hawaii, Oregon and Washington, just to name a couple. This has never come up before? Bullshit, anyone who overuses any substance, be it alcohol, drugs or otherwise takes risks at having an adverse reaction to said substance. Fuck, eat too many carrots or too much asparagus and you'll know that too!!!

So new crowds are exposed to Chronic use and some can't handle their shit? Jesus, what a Non story story....... DJ had it right, everything within moderation!!!

Nothing to see here........

Have you been using too much?

It's ok, you're safe here.

Shhhhhhhh....

[Razor]

Recall that the use of medical marijuana has been legal in CO since 2000.

In the two years (stats below are as of CY 2015) since recreational use of pot was legalized in CO in 2013:

Traffic fatalities where one of the operators involved tested positive for pot more than doubled (increased from 10% to 21%)
Pot-related traffic deaths increased 48%
Pot-related hospital admissions increased 81%
Pot-related ER visits increased 49%
Number of 9 year old and younger kids admitted to the hospital due to ingesting pot edibles increased 128%
Number of non-CO residents seeking ER treatment for pot-related complaints increased 97%
CO ranks #1 nationally for under-18 pot use
The number of youth under-18 that used pot in CO increased 20%, while the national average dropped 4%
The number of youth under-18 that used pot in CO is 74% higher than the national average
Arrests for unlawful public consumption/display of pot by Denver PD increased 9300%


Yup, personal freedom is important, until it starts impacting everyone around you. Legalization has a very real, demonstrable effect on the harmful aspects of drug use, and its much more than a slight uptick in the number of people that can't handle their shit.

[Streck-Fu]

Yup, personal freedom is important, until it starts impacting everyone around you.

That strikes me as a very dangerous statement that serves as the justification for most government restrictions of personal freedom that has led to such nonsense as soda restrictions and outdoor smoking bans.

We should go ahead and reinstate alcohol prohibition for the same above reason. Drunk driving incidents and teen consumption must go down if it's prohibited completely.

Latest survey shows a drop in teens claiming to use MJ....LINK (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/colorado-s-teen-marijuana-usage-dips-after-legalization/). Why claim to use it when illegal then not claim to use it when legal?

Portugal saw significant drops in use once the taboo of prohibition was removed. They made MJ boring.....

[Golf1echo]

Not sure if the good boys down in Texas gave this fellow a bus ticket or he leaked out on his own? Great example of the kind of nuts that come our way now...

http://fox21news.com/2017/01/04/man-accused-of-throwing-rocks-at-cars-stabbing-dispensary-security-guard/

Dispensary - Purchase point for medical and or recreational marijuana.

[Sohei]

The main thing I got from that article is that the security guard should never have holstered his weapon while the clown still possessed the knife.

Throwing rocks at cars. I can't even imagine driving down the street and having an idiot like that throwing rocks at my car.

[Razor]

That strikes me as a very dangerous statement that serves as the justification for most government restrictions of personal freedom that has led to such nonsense as soda restrictions and outdoor smoking bans.


So where would you draw the line? Should I be free to dance naked down the interstate at rush hour? Should I be free to set up a tent on your lawn, start a camp fire and live there as long as I like? What personal liberties do you feel should not be restricted in any way, regardless of societal impact?

[Razor]

Please provide links

Go to the end of the Vol. 4 report for 12 pages of references.

http://www.rmhidta.org/default.aspx/MenuItemID/687/MenuGroup/RMHIDTAHome.htm?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

[SF_BHT]

on it RZ

Im curious though.. I was trying to find the answer to this question... who exactly is the RMHIDTA? where does there funding come from? are there any medical personnel on their staff? How does one substantiate their level of objectivity?

Please help me out though... Please post links to the amount of alcohol related traffic deaths. Please assist me in finding statistical data reflecting the amount of under 21 y/o's who are drinking alcohol and smoking/dipping tobacco. Just as a side note, In Europe, what is the legal drinking age? How many SF or other military men have been outcast because of alcohol? what are those numbers? Is it the substance that is the issue?? or the asshole taking the selected substance?? give me some broader information. Actually lets get some of the parents on here whose children have disabling ailments that THC and CBDS has been able to mitigate. I wonder what their opinion is on the matter. Lets get Purdue pharmaceuticals on here.... an FDA regulated drug company, and have them help explain the enormous opioid epidemic that is happening in the USA.

I guess the question is is it the drug? is it the person? might it possibly be the lobbyist pushing an agenda?...... who knows huh?

V/R

It is on the top of the first page. Rocky Montain High Intensity Traficaking Areas. It is a national program "HIDTA"

They gayer statistics, Intel, etc and is a mechanism for funneling funds to local and state Counter Drug units.

[miclo18d]

Thankyou for that information...

Now as far as comparing statistics...i did not notice anything on this site comparing the issue of alcohol related deaths/ tobacco deaths to marijuana related deaths. I love that there may be a law enforcement organization that obliges the rules passed down to it by higher powers that be. Please connect the dots though. who are those powers? who funded their campaigns? annheiser busch? phillip morris? thats great, that is the American Way...

I know marijuana is the death of mankind, got it.... now... please list your sources for the amount of traffic deaths, divorces, liver cancer numbers, SF guys thrown on their ass regardless of the risk and self/family sacrifice.... please place left and right the numbers? as an American protected by our constitution you have freedom to express your feelings and opinions... ill die for that... what i wont die for is unsubstantiated numbers pushed by someones agenda to profit.... conformation bias is a disease we all have, however recognizing we have it is the first step to healthy discussion....So, who is backing and funding HIDTA?? who are their main lobbies?

http://www.sgvtribune.com/health/20140406/how-medical-marijuana-is-helping-californian-children-with-epilepsy

I am fortunate that this is not my situation... but trust me, do you think I would give you the time of day if this were my situation? Would you not try this option for your children? Or grandchildren? all it takes is you or I being subjected to something to change perspective... perspective/ perception is reality right? Your reality and my reality and the individuals reality in this article are vastly different. As a defender of the constitution, please explain why inhibiting this resource or the choice to have this available falls in line with what you and I chose to risk our lives to defend? The question you need to ask yourself as a defender of the constitution in which you raised your hand to defend is this..... who exactly is going to profit or lose if this earth grown plant is legalized. who will actually benefit? Maybe its possible that this may help people and because of psychological manipulation, you believe that marijuana is the mother of all evil... ill tell you what, if my child ever needed this and it worked, come take it from me and my family and see what you will deal with... and as an SF brother i imagine you would have the same sentiment. However, if you choose for whatever reason or belief you may have that this plant IS actually evil and you refuse to use it as an aid, then that is YOU and YOUR families choice. But don't inhibit the rest of us because of your own beliefs. THAT is UN-constitutional and quite oppressive.

De oppresso liber







Would you like me to provide more counter-narratives for you to explore? will you even consider reading a counter narrative?
We put in our own work and research here. Want to discredit someone's source, do the work.

As for your article here, you may want to check your source. I wouldn't put all my pro pot eggs in one basket with this "reporter". Most of his articles are about how barriers for the rose parade make good seats.

As for the Constitution... it doesn't fall under federal perview and should be handled by each state. Unfortunately we have veered far off the path of the original intent of the Constitution. Perhaps we should focus there first and primarily, instead of taking on a hot button issue that divides brothers by denigrating opinions because yours is different.

From everything I've seen, "medical marijuana" is just a gateway to recreational use. Anyone can find a doctor to write a script for "chronic pain" and by "chronic pain" I mean "CHRONIC" pain. Why not legalize morphine? There are legitimate uses for it. How about MDMA for sexually oppressed? LSD for PTSD?

There are legit roles for THC, it has been on formularies for a long time. My grandmother was on it for cancer in the 90s in NC. It was pill form, so I guess that wasn't enough for the pot smokers though. http://www.lung.org/stop-smoking/smoking-facts/marijuana-and-lung-health.html perhaps the American Lung Association is an acceptable source?

[Streck-Fu]

So where would you draw the line? Should I be free to dance naked down the interstate at rush hour? Should I be free to set up a tent on your lawn, start a camp fire and live there as long as I like? What personal liberties do you feel should not be restricted in any way, regardless of societal impact?

People do those same things when drunk....

Drug possession and use should not be criminal. When a person takes action that disrupts others, that action may be criminal. They should be charged for those actions.

Do they dance naked in the park on drugs, get arrested for public nudity. But not drug possession.

The war on drugs is, probably, the most expensive failure in domestic policy in terms of money spent and lives lost, on both sides. And it has completely failed to achieve its mos t basic mission.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

A bit about RMHIDTA, from Forbes.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/09/08/dishonest-government-report-assumes-marijuana-legalization-has-no-benefits/#3e76f5792b35

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacobsullum/2016/04/07/jumping-ahead-of-evidence-prohibitionists-claim-legalizing-pot-boosts-underage-consumption/#4da16cb2264e

[Golf1echo]

Perhaps another way of thinking about the forum Based on a comment or two above. "It's an island ....,If you didn't bring it* here, you won't find it here.."

That being said many have come to the island, so much so that others use it as a reference.

* Content

[WarriorDiplomat]

People do those same things when drunk....

Drug possession and use should not be criminal. When a person takes action that disrupts others, that action may be criminal. They should be charged for those actions.

Do they dance naked in the park on drugs, get arrested for public nudity. But not drug possession.

The war on drugs is, probably, the most expensive failure in domestic policy in terms of money spent and lives lost, on both sides. And it has completely failed to achieve its mos t basic mission.

Funny enough the movement push to legalize pot has a strong law enforcement backing as well...why?? I think those that deal with "potheads" as criminals are frustrated with the amount of resources and time it takes impact away from real crime such as violent criminals, rape, murder, child abuse etc.....

Pot IMO is no more a gateway drug than alcohol and maybe even less so since people aren't known to black out on pot. Most people who smoke pot are reasonably mellow and non violent and it does not have the addictive properties of morphine and other similar pain killing drugs. In fact outside of the anti drug info many are touting marijuana as a miracle drug for alot of issues. The concern is as marijuana's taboo existence becomes norm again will scientist manipulate it like scientist did working for large tobacco by adding in cancer causing ingredients like cigarettes??anybody remember the hearings in the 80's? Henry Waxman? read the ingredients in tobacco products to give you that buzz

Caveat that with the harder heavier drugs like PCP, Cocaine, Crack etc...are much different in that the addictive properties and the conduct of people on them are dangerous and irrational. The addiction piece is what leads to the type of desperation and irrationality that causes people to do horrific things to get more.....it is this that makes the drug a candidate for illegality because it steals the free will of a possible one time user. Marijuana has not had this issue.

It can be argued that anti drug laws was the catalysts that created the illegal drug industry and thanks to the law we now have designer stuff so sophisticated science can't keep up with it and the effects are all over the place. There are obviously drugs that must be outlawed however IMHO marijuana should not be one. I have seen a few family members die of cancer and their discomfort and their bodies wasting away into skeletons their symptoms could have been relieved with it and their appetites would have been better. In fact so many diseases and conditions respond so well to marijuana it is a wonder why it still is.

The real question is how does the government profit from a drug that they cannot control?? Many drugs such as PCP, LSD and etc...were created in labs for medical use and only after people started manufacturing the stuff themselves without oversight did they become illegal.

[DJ Urbanovsky]

A prime example of this is MDMA, and it's happening right now. You have unregulated firms in China that are making minute alterations to the molecule so that they don't fall under FDA scheduling, and they'll ship it worldwide. And they are capable of making those alterations faster than the FDA can classify them. So now there are these compounds out there in the wild, but nobody knows how they are actually going to react when mixed with humans. Maybe you get to watch the walls melt. Maybe you suffer a psychotic break. Maybe you die. Not good.



It can be argued that anti drug laws was the catalysts that created the illegal drug industry and thanks to the law we now have designer stuff so sophisticated science can't keep up with it and the effects are all over the place.

The real question is how does the government profit from a drug that they cannot control?? Many drugs such as PCP, LSD and etc...were created in labs for medical use and only after people started manufacturing the stuff themselves without oversight did they become illegal.

[Streck-Fu]

It can be argued that anti drug laws was the catalysts that created the illegal drug industry


The sad truth of Marijuana prohibition is rooted the 1930s Depression era efforts to control and restrict Mexican migrant farmers in an effort to have American workers take those jobs.

Then it escalated into the Reefer Madness movement and all warnings about Black Jazz Musicians stealing your white daughters....

The whole history is a sad pathetic joke and the justification for prohibition does not pass the most basic sniff test.

And yet, the government insist that it is a Schedule 1 drug ... Gotta keep that DEA chugging along.

[doctom54]

Drugs that cause the most harm.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
The link is to "The Economist" article, which came from an article in Lancet.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61462-6/fulltext

One of the authors, Dr. David Nutt, lost his government job over the article. They looked at each drug to include alcohol and tobacco and how much harm it did to the user and to society.

Alcohol and heroin topped the list and cannabis was below tobacco. Mushrooms are the least harmful (just saying)

[VVVV]

I have known a number of pot smokers and all have lived very successful lives, including one who help put our astronauts on the moon. I wish I could say the same for the all regular boozers I have known.

[11Ber]

I agree with you, but even with small government and freedom to choose should there limits? I really don't care what people do with their lives as long as it doesn't negatively effect me. Should there be a limit set somewhere, maybe herion? Crack? Meth? I people use freedom to choose herion why should taxpayers shoulder the cost of Narcan?

Easy: Don't prescribe Narcan for OD's due to drug use or abuse of prescription narcotics.

[WarriorDiplomat]

Exactly. The cops in Seattle area are carrying narcan there are so many OD's. First why, and second how are they authorized to give a medication without a MD or other certifications to back them up. Narcan is not OTC and is dispensed with a prescription only. Perhaps we need to file a law suit against this.

Wow that is crazy that many that the city feels the only solution is too arm cops with NARCAN?? This is crazy the say no to drugs campaign failed in that area.

[tonyz]

The NARCAN posts piqued my interest to look a little deeper. Apologies for the thread drift but this is interesting. When you scroll down the number of agencies dispensing the stuff it might take some by surprise. It does help illustrate the extent of the illegal drug problem.

U.S. drug czar urges police to carry heroin overdose treatment

http://www.reuters.com/article/usa-drugs-heroin-idUSL2N0LG0KK20140211

Law Enforcement Departments Carrying Naloxone

North Carolina is first & then the list is alphabetical by State

http://www.nchrc.org/law-enforcement/us-law-enforcement-who-carry-naloxone/

[Golf1echo]

Here is a resource Colorado puts out: https://goodtoknowcolorado.com/

[Peregrino]

We put in our own work and research here. Want to discredit someone's source, do the work.

Okay Lego 18D......

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2016/10/13/survey-57-of-americans-favor-marijuana-legalization/#b7c35ca5bc6d

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/18/support-marijuana-legalization_n_6895270.html

https://www.yahoo.com/news/majority-of-americans-support-marijuana-legalization-for-first-time--survey-shows-211700847.html?ref=gs

http://www.gallup.com/poll/165539/first-time-americans-favor-legalizing-marijuana.aspx

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/12/support-for-marijuana-legalization-continues-to-rise/

http://norml.org/component/zoo/category/surveys-polls

Hey Lego 18D.... you are fucking beat. Unless of course, this is just all fake news.

Fascinating. Those are the same sources that said Hillary was going to be our next pResident and continue to insist that Obama has a 52% approval rating. After the last political cycle, I don't have a lot of confidence in the accuracy or impartiality of polls taken by entities with a stake in the game. YMMV.

[Peregrino]

Reality will be whatever falls out after it's put on ballots and the voters in the individual states decide, the decision is challenged in federal courts, and somebody forces it to the Supreme Court so they can weigh in on the 10th Amendment aspects. It ought to be interesting.

Personally, I'm not holding my breath. I'm largely indifferent to the outcome. I don't use the stuff, nor do I respect those who do use it recreationally. I do understand and support the legitimate medical uses; however, I'm also very skeptical of most "medicinal" users. I'm very supportive of employers using drug tests to screen workers and strongly feel that drug tests for anyone receiving public assistance should be mandatory. I also feel endangering others by operating motor vehicles or heavy equipment while under the influence should result in a felony conviction and serious prison time. Cause a death and face at least Murder 2. Other than that - people should be free to fuck up their lives as they see fit. Just don't expect me to support them or approve of their actions.

P.S. - The CDC has been so politicized that it has zero credibility when it comes to "hot button" social issues.

[Peregrino]

... now that is what we fight for. I may not care for your actions, just don't tread on me, my wife or my dogs. Some people may benefit medicinally. Some people just like to get fucked up... drive through your neighborhood on any given weekend (maybe look for lights in the woods if that is your geo-local) you will find under 21 persons drinking booze, smoking ciggs and smoking weed... OR doing more. Is cannabis the real issue? Is parenting the issue? Are lack of jobs the issue?

Marijuana is a plant. Coca is a plant. Opium is a plant. Peyote is a plant. People have issues, people like to escape... It is going to happen regardless of any law. However, just as opiods have a medicinal purpose, so does THC. It is positively affecting people. Smoking weed is is also positively affecting society. Take a hard look at your Bias'. You may just be outnumbered. I would have rather my asshole HARD DRINKING, Grandfather, Father, Mother, smoke a joint and pass out, Rather than them Drink uncontrollably and look at me with disdain and further (X)... you can imagine.

That's OK; I'm contemptuous of alcoholics too. As for my biases - they're the result of my life experiences. They serve me well and make separating the wheat from the chaff easier. As for being outnumbered - I'm at the point in my life where it isn't a big deal; NTM I've never cared for running with the herd anyway. It just makes it easier to tell who my real "brothers" are. They've got my back in spite of the odds.

[VVVV]

I'm strongly feel that drug tests for anyone receiving public assistance should be mandatory.

Think again!

https://thinkprogress.org/what-7-states-discovered-after-spending-more-than-1-million-drug-testing-welfare-recipients-c346e0b4305d#.j8n3ij9k0

[Peregrino]

I must step back and apologize for my lack of humility and possible perception that I was looking for a fight.
I love the team room. I was shining a seat in a staff gig for more time then i probably deserved. The only tangible lesson that I realized was that life IS better on the detachment. I think the type "a" bled out a little here, as well as some bad blood in my past. My apologies for the emotion attached to my feelings towards this debate.

Accepted. Sometimes it takes stepping back and reassessing to get the full picture of your operating environment. One nice thing about admin G-bases is the ability to negotiate a reset if you haven't totally screwed the pooch.

[scooter]

Opinions are like A-holes....we all know the rest.

And you need some Wet wipes?

Is that it? Did I get it right?

It's always embarrassing when I get one wrong.

[miclo18d]

Lego medic...

I did the work dog... posted an enormous list of peer reviewed and other resources... So not only did i discredit the post, i countered it. But its cool that you are taking a side based on your bias's. that's the way shit works when one sticks to a side.

From everything you "seen" marijuana is a gateway drug... hummmmm
pretty strong argument dude. What did you see exactly... You are implying a claim to information/research... post it. Let me ask you this though... how old were you when you had your first beer/cigarette?? If you cannot provide any evidence that weed is gateway drug, then I would suggest you remove this point from any of your future arguments. You are just regurgitating right/conservative points that are completely unsubstantiated. I assume you are a right leaning voter but really have no idea why.

The original intent of the constitution? tell me... when was the last time you read the constitution? Or as most "average" people, you probably rely on your chosen elected official that you voted for just because they were republican, didn't do a day or an hour of research on the candidate or the candidates donors/interests, and rely and take blind faith that this candidates -personal interpretation- of the constitution aligns with what you think you believe. Then without further research, you are willing to attack and stick up for some obscure view of reality that you have no education or background in and in the end call your opponent a piece of shit liberal because of your busy schedule and intuitive knowledge of how the world works.. which is extremely reliable.

So lego medic. what is your real issue with THC? Do you have the same issue with ETOH? Tobacco? Have you taken any snapshot of how much money lobbyists from both fields influence policy makers? Maybe looking that deep is to complicated and liberal for you. Please, counter my postings, with peer reviewd research articles showing how marijunana is more damaging and costly than booze... i got all day mate.

So at the end of the day, you have no case, no numbers ,no facts. You are relying on right rhetoric and fear mongering. You have been manipulated by multi billion dollar corporations pushing a reefer madness propaganda agenda that is turning about 60 years old at this point. You are regurgitating right dialogue that marijuana is a gateway drug and it is not an opinion you formed for yourself nor can not provide any proof of.

So back the fuck off before you stand judgement on my argument. Bring more to the table before expressing your point.

Anecdotal evidence can be evidence. From what I have seen, States that legalize marijuana for "medical use" tend to quickly start trying to legalize for "recreational use". Sorry you were too stoned to read into that.

I see you didn't answer the second half of my comment and instead just resorted to ad hominem attacks about a perceived bias that I may or may not have. Attacking me by calling me "Lego Medic". Saying that I voted for people that I have no clue about.

You sir are a very silly man, that likes to argue and when called on your BS resorts to attacking the messenger. You've only attacked my post 3 times already after I wrote it 2 weeks ago.

Me thinks you are just trying to stir the "pot"

Have fun with that.

[cbtengr]

I am am sitting here 10' from the ashes of my recently deceased brother, he was 62 not all that old by today's standards. He gave up all drugs, booze and cigarettes 20 years ago but the 25 years before that he abused them all mercilessly. His body in last twenty years was aged beyond belief he was like a little man all bent over and crippled.

We all obviously have our own opinions on this matter, I do not have to have had my ass kicked by a a drunk or have seen anyone die of liver failure to have formed my opinion or bias. I saw my brother commit slow suicide the last 45 years. SF718 you don't have the market cornered when it comes to pain and misery.

[WarriorDiplomat]

[QUOTE=cbtengr;622923]I am am sitting here 10' from the ashes of my recently deceased brother, he was 62 not all that old by today's standards. He gave up all drugs, booze and cigarettes 20 years ago but the 25 years before that he abused them all mercilessly. His body in last twenty years was aged beyond belief he was like a little man all bent over and crippled.
We all obviously have our own opinions on this matter, I do not have to have had my ass kicked by a a drunk or have seen anyone die of liver failure to have formed my opinion or bias. I saw my brother commit slow suicide the last 45 years. SF718 you don't have the market cornered when it comes to pain and misery.

My mother died at 62 having never smoked marijuana or any drug other than alcohol on occasion and cigarettes a pack or more a day and she looked like she was in her 80's. She was however recommended she go to Colorado by a conservative Cowboy Dr. treating her cancer so she could have a MMJ prescription to relieve her symptoms and return her appetite.

Years of propaganda has taken its toll on America when it comes to MJ we all know people who have used it and guaranteed we are not aware of how widespread use is by successful people. I have been surprised more than once.

When I was 17 I partied like any other at that age but one difference is going to parties where local law enforcement, lawyers, judges etc....were their sharing with me a minor with alcohol. MJ and friends who dealt cocaine had told me some of their customers were cutouts known to take care of judges etc....

Having come from the other side of the tracks and like some know full well the hypocrisy of those who are supposed the clean upstanding members of society the supposed watchdogs, especially when you are a kid in the 80's being at a kegger with cops one day then getting an underaged minor charge from one of those at the kegger.

Bottom line is criminals are criminals with or without drugs, drugs amplify criminal tendencies. Yes coming from a family of addicts I(3 of 4 brothers and 1 sister) too am aware the pull addictive drugs can have on an otherwise good persons values. Desperation to get another fix is powerful...and criminal acts can result.

How many times people have had someone slip them a drug unbeknownst in their drink and then are exposed to the heavier more addictive drugs out there....I know of this happening.....should we deny them NARCAN or how about babies born addicted who struggle their whole life with it and unlike many have started out life as a defenseless infant fighting addiction and cycle continues as they pass this on.

MJ has never in my exposure being fairly robust /has never factored into this except as commonality between the wolves, watchdogs and sheep

[Razor]

any chance you can counter these numbers with weed? Maybe you should re consider your bias's.

Got it, man--you support legalizing recreational pot. Good for you. Unless you've lived in CO, WA, OR or AK the last couple years, you're merely speculating (with your own biases, I might point out) about what it would be like to live under such an arrangement. Some of us have actually spent several years 'in the arena', and bring some of the unique insight that goes with first hand experience.

Regardless, following several states voting to legalize weed last November, it appears the trend is going the way you prefer, and we very well may see nationalized legal weed in the near future. Let's all hope you're right about how harmless this will be to our society.

[VVVV]

deleted double post

[VVVV]

I am am sitting here 10' from the ashes of my recently deceased brother, he was 62 not all that old by today's standards. He gave up all drugs, booze and cigarettes 20 years ago but the 25 years before that he abused them all mercilessly. His body in last twenty years was aged beyond belief he was like a little man all bent over and crippled.

We all obviously have our own opinions on this matter, I do not have to have had my ass kicked by a a drunk or have seen anyone die of liver failure to have formed my opinion or bias. I saw my brother commit slow suicide the last 45 years. SF718 you don't have the market cornered when it comes to pain and misery.

Sorry for your personal pain and misery, but an individual's personal behavior is not IMO reason for marijuana to be illegal.

[SF0]

I am am sitting here 10' from the ashes of my recently deceased brother, he was 62 not all that old by today's standards. He gave up all drugs, booze and cigarettes 20 years ago but the 25 years before that he abused them all mercilessly. His body in last twenty years was aged beyond belief he was like a little man all bent over and crippled.

We all obviously have our own opinions on this matter, I do not have to have had my ass kicked by a a drunk or have seen anyone die of liver failure to have formed my opinion or bias. I saw my brother commit slow suicide the last 45 years. SF718 you don't have the market cornered when it comes to pain and misery.

My father died suddenly at 61 from a piss poor diet. Shall I base my choices regarding personal freedom on emotion? If so, I support the ban of all unhealthy foods.