View Full Version : Concealed carry for troops GTG
Divemaster
11-21-2016, 17:07
The devil will be in the details for sure on this one. Expect a lot of push back from CDR's not crazy about Joe being armed.
Acknowledging domestic terror threat, Pentagon says troops, recruiters can carry concealed guns
By: Jeffrey Schogol, November 21, 2016
U.S. military personnel can now request to carry concealed handguns for protection at government facilities, according to new Defense Department directive issued last week in response to a series of deadly shootings over the last seven years.
While service members already were authorized to carry weapons as part of specific job responsibilities, the new policy allows them to apply to carry their privately owned firearms “for personal protection not associated with the performance of official duties,” the directive says.
It also clarifies when military recruiters can be armed, said Army Maj. Jamie Davis, a Defense Department spokesman.
“Commanders have always had that authority to arm recruiters,” Davis told Military Times on Monday. “Some of the wording wasn’t very clear, so they’ve gone through and cleaned it up so it is very clear now that the commanders have that authority to use at their discretion.”
Effective Nov. 18, the directive culminates years of work, Davis said.
The effort began after the 2009 shooting at Fort Hood in Texas, where former Army Maj. Nidal Hasan killed 13 people and wounded more than 30 others. It accelerated after the July 2015 attacks on a recruiting station and Navy reserve center in Chattanooga, Tennessee. That incident claimed the lives of four Marines and a sailor. Both lone-wolf attacks were believed to be inspired by international terrorism.
Rest of article here: http://bit.ly/2gwXrq0
CAARNG 68W
11-21-2016, 20:08
I wonder who will get the first negligent discharge
(1VB)compforce
11-21-2016, 23:53
I wonder who will get the first negligent discharge
An officer :D
An officer :D
Butter Bar or O-7 ?? :munchin
U.S. military personnel can now request to carry concealed handguns for protection at government facilities, according to new Defense Department directive.....
Key word.
Ret10Echo
11-22-2016, 01:02
Key word.
Indeed... It's a micro-version of the civilian world's local Sheriff or Police Chief's personal opinion.
I've been at installations where the Provost or Base commander did not approve of POW freedoms so it just wasn't going to happen.
Is there a link somewhere to this Policy letter? I am not seeing it on the typical channels.
I and some friends have been pushing this for YEARS. You would not believe the amount of senior folks (particularly GO's) who fear their troops being armed. When I try to talk to them about it being a training issue and perhaps they haven't trained their troops properly, things get interesting.
Just before I retired I gave a personal class to my three-star in his office on his issue weapon. Said I taught him shit in one hour that he never learned in 40 years - and he was one of the GOOD guys.
Also, a lot of closet-Dems in the leadership ranks.
You would not believe the amount of senior folks (particularly GO's) who fear their troops being armed. When I try to talk to them about it being a training issue and perhaps they haven't trained their troops properly, things get interesting.
Just before I retired I gave a personal class to my three-star in his office on his issue weapon. Said I taught him shit in one hour that he never learned in 40 years - and he was one of the GOOD guys.
Also, a lot of closet-Dems in the leadership ranks.
Army leadership is TERRIFIED of guns.
...look at the fascination with clearing barrels. Wouldn't it just be easier to treat all guns like they are loaded and not play with them??
NO !!!
...troops cannot be trusted with loaded weapons !!!
Instead, we should tell soldiers to charge the weapon, place it on fire, point it into a barrel, and pull the trigger.
...some troops simply forget to add the steps about unloading it
I'm not sure "closet-dem" is the best way of putting it. They aren't in the closet, they just aren't outspoken about it.
Most of them are very much OUT of the closet in word and deed.
Also, a lot of closet-Dems in the leadership ranks.
May I present to you the most intellectually dishonest op-ed from a GO I have ever seen:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/opinion/home-should-not-be-a-war-zone.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0&referer=
here
http://www.ncosupport.com/files/dod-directive-arms2016.pdf
http://www.ncosupport.com/military-law/military-personal-firearms.html
Thank you. The DTIC link was not working here.
bblhead672
11-22-2016, 04:03
May I present to you the most intellectually dishonest op-ed from a GO I have ever seen:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/opinion/home-should-not-be-a-war-zone.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0&referer=
Flag grade officers apparently fear an armed citizenry as much as the politicians do.
Ret10Echo
11-22-2016, 04:05
May I present to you the most intellectually dishonest op-ed from a GO I have ever seen:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/opinion/home-should-not-be-a-war-zone.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0&referer=
Not surprising considering the author.
Peregrino
11-22-2016, 04:12
DoD Releases Plan to Allow Personnel to Carry Firearms on Base
(Military.com, Nov. 21, Matthew Cox)
The Pentagon recently released detailed guidance that allows U.S. military personnel to carry privately owned, concealed firearms on base, a move that the Army's service chief argued against publicly.
"Arming and the Use of Force," a Nov. 18 Department of Defense directive approved by Deputy Secretary of Defense Robert Work, lays out the policy and standards that allow DoD personnel to carry firearms and employ deadly force while performing official duties.
But the lengthy document also provides detailed guidance to the services for permitting soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guard personnel to carry privately owned firearms on DoD property, according to the document.
Commanders, O-5 and above, "may grant permission to DoD personnel requesting to carry a privately owned firearm (concealed or open carry) on DoD property for a personal protection purpose not related to performance of an official duty or status," the document states.
Applicants must be 21 years of age or older, the age many states require an individual to be to own a firearm, according to the document. Proof of compliance may include a concealed handgun license that is valid under federal, state, local or host-nation law where the DoD property is located.
"Written permission will be valid for 90 days or as long as the DoD Component deems appropriate and will include information necessary to facilitate the carrying of the firearm on DoD property consistent with safety and security, such as the individual's name, duration of the permission to carry, type of firearm, etc.," according to the document.
Until now, DoD personnel have not been authorized to carry personal firearms on military installations, a policy that has come under scrutiny in the wake of "active-shooter" attacks at U.S. military bases resulting in the deaths of service members.
Lawmakers have questioned military leaders about the policy, arguing that allowing service members to be armed might have prevented attacks such as the July 16, 2015, shootings at two military facilities in Chattanooga, Tennessee, in which four Marines and a sailor were shot and killed. The gunman, Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez, was killed by police in a gunfight.
But Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley has argued against reversing the DoD policy that prohibits service members from carrying concealed weapons on post.
Testifying at an April 14 congressional hearing, Milley cited the Nov. 5, 2009, mass shooting at Fort Hood, Texas, in which 13 people were killed and 42 others were injured. The day of the shooting, Nidal Hasan, then an Army major and psychiatrist, entered the Fort Hood deployment center carrying two pistols, jumped on a desk and shouted "Allahu Akbar!" -- Arabic for "God is great" -- then opened fire.
Milley defended the short time it took for law enforcement to secure the scene and said he is not convinced that allowing soldiers to carry privately owned weapons would have stopped Hasan.
The directive states that personnel authorized to carry privately owned firearms must "acknowledge they may be personally liable for the injuries, death, and property damage proximately caused by negligence in connection with the possession or use of privately owned firearms that are not within the scope of their federal employment."
The eligibility requirements also state that applicants should not be subject to past or pending disciplinary action under the Uniform Code of Military Justice or in any civilian criminal cases.
Personnel carrying firearms "will not be under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance that would cause drowsiness or impair their judgment while carrying a firearm," the document states.
Divemaster
11-22-2016, 06:37
Like I said, the devil will be in the details. On the conventional Army side of the house, leadership's fear of troops weapons handling skills is not without merit. In 2008 I was working a special project in MND-B Headquarters. Fourth ID was the battle space owner. In their first 6 months on the ground, the number of negligent discharges had already exceeded 140.
PedOncoDoc
11-22-2016, 06:46
Like I said, the devil will be in the details. On the conventional Army side of the house, leadership's fear of troops weapons handling skills is not without merit. In 2008 I was working a special project in MND-B Headquarters. Fourth ID was the battle space owner. In their first 6 months on the ground, the number of negligent discharges had already exceeded 140.
Do you think that negligent discharges are more likely with long guns or with holstered/concealed sidearms?
Do you think those that choose to carry POW's on-site are more or less likely to responsibly handle their firearms than the entire group as a whole?
:munchin
Old Dog New Trick
11-22-2016, 07:18
Like I said, the devil will be in the details. On the conventional Army side of the house, leadership's fear of troops weapons handling skills is not without merit. In 2008 I was working a special project in MND-B Headquarters. Fourth ID was the battle space owner. In their first 6 months on the ground, the number of negligent discharges had already exceeded 140.
An ND is 1000% more likely when a 'clearing barrel' is introduced into the equation.
Rule #1 Treat all guns as if they are loaded (Keep all working firearms loaded unless cleaning or inspecting - solves 99.9% of all AD/ND)
Old Dog New Trick
11-22-2016, 07:25
Do you think that negligent discharges are more likely with long guns or with holstered/concealed sidearms?
Do you think those that choose to carry POW's on-site are more or less likely to responsibly handle their firearms than the entire group as a whole?
:munchin
In the military (as I remember) there is only a negligible difference between long and short. As above, introduce a designated clearing barrel outside a headquarters entrance and expect one ND per week as people clear an otherwise unchambered weapon.
People who carry loaded (i.e., chambered) weapons rarely have an ND. It's those other guys who as someone else mentioned are not trained well enough to be trusted.
bblhead672
11-22-2016, 07:27
It's those other guys who as someone else mentioned are not trained well enough to be trusted.
Back to talking about senior officers again. :D
Ret10Echo
11-22-2016, 07:44
In the military (as I remember) there is only a negligible difference between long and short. As above, introduce a designated clearing barrel outside a headquarters entrance and expect one ND per week as people clear an otherwise unchambered weapon.
People who carry loaded (i.e., chambered) weapons rarely have an ND. It's those other guys who as someone else mentioned are not trained well enough to be trusted.
Watched a soldier have an ND with a SAW one sunny afternoon....
As others have stated. Introducing the clearing barrel generates NDs.
It's those other guys who as someone else mentioned are not trained well enough to be trusted.
Or the ones so well trained that they become complacent. On Oki our guys (95% straight from Viet Nam with 3 PHs) had to pass the barrel several times a day. Every so often someone would get the order of operation wrong and run the bolt (M-14) before removing the mag. Bang!
Pat
Divemaster
11-22-2016, 10:17
Do you think that negligent discharges are more likely with long guns or with holstered/concealed sidearms?
Do you think those that choose to carry POW's on-site are more or less likely to responsibly handle their firearms than the entire group as a whole?
:munchin
I think an ND is more likely with people who are not accustomed to handling, loading, moving about with, and unloading firearms be they long or short.
However, complacency kills and injures too. SF is not immune to the ND. However, it is much rarer.
frostfire
11-22-2016, 11:54
geeez, no love for the officers around here :D
well, not without good reasons though
Also, a lot of closet-Dems in the leadership ranks.
This
I can name every supposedly brother and sisters in arms who freaked out after they found out my marksmanship mastery and enthusiasm, and went full blown passive aggressive behind my back
Old Dog New Trick
11-22-2016, 13:09
I've personally known four general officers and have driven around maybe upwards of 50 or more when I was a young SP4 and driver for the command staff of the Pershing Missile Brigade in Germany. I only know of one that carried his issued Colt Officers Model 1911 (Locked & Loaded) everyday and everywhere he could. All the rest relied on people like me to protect them. Also, only one of three O-6 Colonels that I worked with carried daily (a small .38 revolver.)
Looking back on my 21-years I still have a lot of respect for those two.
The General also required that whether we carried concealed (permitted by Uncle Sam) or open that we were locked and loaded. That wasn't so hard for MPs assigned to his detail but for us 11Bs it was TTBOMK against Army Regulations.
As was noted in the OP the Army or military as a whole has had the authority to issue every soldier, sailors, Marine and airmen a permit to carry loaded weapons in the official capacity of their duties. I'd say the more than 50 'others' would never allow that outside of their own protective details.
SF as a whole was more grown up about it but there was always big Army and Post Commander directives that nurtured responsibility. If you can't trust a guy on the qualification range how can you put your trust in him to go to war?
I agree that most flag officers are closet Dems with few rare exceptions.
Basenshukai
11-22-2016, 15:48
Butter Bar or O-7 ?? :munchin
When I was but a brand new SF captain, we had a SGM (who later became a BN CSM) who, by the time he left my company, had 4 negligent discharges. I experienced one personally when we were all in SFAUCC. We were loading pistol mags while another group shot. Next thing you know, "bang!". We all look behind us, and their is our company SGM f_cking with his pistol. A previous one he had was in JRTC; luckily it was a blank fire discharge with an M-4. The company supply NCO was there to witness that one. I don't know how this very senior NCO kept getting a pistol assigned.
sfshooter
11-22-2016, 15:59
When I was but a brand new SF captain, we had a SGM (who later became a BN CSM) who, by the time he left my company, had 4 negligent discharges. I experienced one personally when we were all in SFAUCC. We were loading pistol mags while another group shot. Next thing you know, "bang!". We all look behind us, and their is our company SGM f_cking with his pistol. A previous one he had was in JRTC; luckily it was a blank fire discharge with an M-4. The company supply NCO was there to witness that one. I don't know how this very senior NCO kept getting a pistol assigned.
I always thought, and was told, that an ND in SF would get ya booted out. I never seen one while I was there but my Chief said he had a good friend of his booted right after Desert Storm because of an ND.
I seen a whole lot of them in Iraq, but always with regulars, no SOF although I'm sure it happens.
I always thought, and was told, that an ND in SF would get ya booted out. I never seen one while I was there but my Chief said he had a good friend of his booted right after Desert Storm because of an ND.
I seen a whole lot of them in Iraq, but always with regulars, no SOF although I'm sure it happens.
We had a company SGM ND his pistol at a clearing barrel twice in a row in Iraq. Like, literally BAM!.....BAM!
He later went on to be the Group CSM in a couple of years. So, yeah, it happens...
Old Dog New Trick
11-22-2016, 19:09
In Hati (circa '94) a SEAL Leutnant (that's an O-3 right) walks up to the clearing barrel outside the JSOC HQ Port-a-Let (Prince) draws M9 from holster, pulls slide, drops mag, pulls trigger - bang! Says WTF it was unloaded...gets on plane next day bye bye.
Same week, 10th Mt. Div. private - PFC - SP4- don't matter walks up to PX clearing barrel (sand filled #10 can hanging on wall outside) pulls charging handle, points M16 at can pulls trigger - bang! Drops magazine, pulls trigger - bang! Says WTF! Next day gets on plane says bye bye.
I know of one SF guy (NCO) in training had AD on live fire movement range... packed his shit and next day wasn't on an A-Team... don't know if he stayed in SF or just kept a low profile in SWCS afterwards. Fasted way off a team when I was in was for your gun to go boom when it wasn't supposed to. We didn't - wouldn't - tolerate it. So the rumors are true. Your gun goes boom when it wasn't supposed too...just pack your bags.
1stindoor
11-23-2016, 01:24
When I was but a brand new SF captain, we had a SGM (who later became a BN CSM) who, by the time he left my company, had 4 negligent discharges...
hahaha....and I remember the young 18B who "generated" a set of orders PCS'ing him to 4th AD. :D
[QUOTE=Old Dog New Trick;620045]In Hati (circa '94) a SEAL Leutnant (that's an O-3 right) walks up to the clearing barrel outside the JSOC HQ Port-a-Let (Prince) draws M9 from holster, pulls slide, drops mag, pulls trigger - bang! Says WTF it was unloaded...gets on plane next day bye bye.
Old Dog - are you referring to the Seal Admiral's aide who had the ND in the clearing barrel in the warehouse...?? I was right there when it happened. The guys just lost a shooter from a short team because he had an ND down at the docks. No kidding, they put him back on the boat and sent him home. meanwhile, here comes the female (I mention sex only in the context that she was given a weapon and not trained in it's use) and bangs one off into the clearing barrel. Nothing happens to her. NOTHING. Kind of giggles and goes about her business.
Old Dog New Trick
11-23-2016, 09:02
[QUOTE=Old Dog New Trick;620045]In Hati (circa '94) a SEAL Leutnant (that's an O-3 right) walks up to the clearing barrel outside the JSOC HQ Port-a-Let (Prince) draws M9 from holster, pulls slide, drops mag, pulls trigger - bang! Says WTF it was unloaded...gets on plane next day bye bye.
Old Dog - are you referring to the Seal Admiral's aide who had the ND in the clearing barrel in the warehouse...?? I was right there when it happened. The guys just lost a shooter from a short team because he had an ND down at the docks. No kidding, they put him back on the boat and sent him home. meanwhile, here comes the female (I mention sex only in the context that she was given a weapon and not trained in it's use) and bangs one off into the clearing barrel. Nothing happens to her. NOTHING. Kind of giggles and goes about her business.
Probably one in the same.
I don't remember the female...there were so many NDs there it's hard to keep track.
I was standing 10 feet from the barrel when it happened.
It was the admiral's aide (female AF Captain). The admiral essentially said, " Boyatt can do what he wants with his people, I will take care of mine. The clearing barrel did its job."
Everyone was pissed because the policy prior to the admiral (Potter) was that any ND was an immediate trip home with an ART 15.
I was standing 10 feet from the barrel when it happened.
It was the admiral's aide (female AF Captain). The admiral essentially said, " Boyatt can do what he wants with his people, I will take care of mine. The clearing barrel did its job."
Everyone was pissed because the policy prior to the admiral (Potter) was that any ND was an immediate trip home with an ART 15.
Yup!! Swoop - I must have been standing right by you. I remember that day like it was yesterday. Sweeney (?) and I giggled about it for months...but not "ha-ha" giggled. Mark was not amused.
On Okinawa again, one night we had a drive-by shooting from some stolen skoshi cabs. They were about a quarter mile away it sounded like they had .22 revolvers. Problem was one of our guys shot back so the Duty officer was called. He was a ORD O-2. Marine MPs from Camp Schawb heard the first shots and responded, too. One of them thought he heard someone in the ditch near a culvert. The Duty Officer yelled for them to come out then fired 3 shots into the ditch. After the smoke cleared, so to speak, he handed me his .45 and admitted that he didn't know how to clear it. I liked that . . . he didn't shoot me. ;)
Pat