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Brush Okie
08-18-2016, 21:39
Looking into a suppressor for a 22. It will go on a Ruger mkii pistol and a bolt action 22 rifle.

I have a 308 that is threaded it would be nice to get one that can do double duty but primary would be the 22 pistol would be used the most so small and light are important sine I plan on taking it on hikes

Any advice appreciated since I have very little experience with them thanks

The Reaper
08-19-2016, 07:42
I can highly recommend the Silencerco Sparrow 2.

Inexpensive, well-made, very light, has the novel ability to be disassembled for cleaning. Most .22 cans weld themselves together with powder and lead crud and get pretty buggered up trying to disassemble them. If you look at some used ones, you will probably see a lot of external damage to them from attempts to disassemble the units for cleaning. The Sparrow design prevents that problem.

Works fine on a Ruger .22/45 and a 10/22. Both can be had in threaded versions that allow quick installation and removal, without the services of a gunsmith.

A .30 can suppressor will be way heavy and bulky on a .22 pistol or even a .22 rifle.

Best of luck.

TR

JJ_BPK
08-19-2016, 14:29
I have an AAC Element 2, that I use on my 10/45, 10/22, & PPK/s. As with the Sparrow, it's light and small,, and almost as easy to clean.

I was going to purchase the Sparrow, but the dealer gave me a sale price on the Element. Quality and sound wise they go toe-2-toe..

At 5.24" x 1" and 4.1 oz you hardly notice the can on the weapon..

I concur with TR, you will not find a 30cal or even a .223/5.56 can that is compatible with a 22cal platform. They are to big & bulky and weight 3-4 times as much.

MK262MOD1
08-19-2016, 14:55
I have a Gemtech Alpine II.

I enjoy integral .22 suppressors more but, honestly these days any of the removable .22 suppressors from a major manufacture will be great.

35NCO
08-19-2016, 20:55
You really do not want to shoot 22 in a sealed can, but especially in a high pressure situation like 308 and 556. The lead from 22 builds up very rapidly. It is possible to create lead obstructions or worse lead obstructions that can cause variations of gas flow that create high pressure areas that can cause best case an end cap strike, or worst, burst the vessel/tube entirely when returning to centerfire. People shoot 22 in 556 cans all the time, but it's taking huge risk. I don't agree with the "just shoot some 556 after 22 to clean it out" speech.

Shooting 22 out of a 556 and 308 is tempting because of tone. It sounds really quiet, but what you are really hearing is the change in tone due to volume. If you like that tone buy or make a form 1 high volume 22 can. My AWC 9mm MK9 is stupid quiet on 10/22s and 22 bolt guns, but it's two inches in diameter and twelve inches long. It's also user serviceable. But compare that tradeoff to a market average of one inch by five inch cans for 22 now that weight just about nothing. What would you rather carry around all day?

Agree with above, the weight alone would make it a terrible choice.

Only buy a 22 can that is user serviceable. Silencerco, dead air, gem tech, Griffin, rugged are all top contenders right now. YHM and AAC is good bang for the buck as well. When you read about weights, dbs, and materials, you will quickly see that you get what you pay for. Drop by silencer talk and read around for a bit. There is also tons of video reviews on YouTube for just about every can in existence now.

.....I will submit AWC and Thompson as pretty darn good too.

Listing names is getting rough these days. Not much is sacred anymore sound wise. It's very stiff competition between about a dozen mainstream companies. It's starting to be more about the people that run the companies and customer service than the product themselves. It's a permanent investment and a real pain to deal with atf paperwork. The question that everyone should ask is if the company stands by its product and customers. In that regard you may see some doing better than others.

Odd Job
08-20-2016, 06:48
Actually preliminary results from research I am doing in this area indicate that it is neither imperative nor necessary to get a user-serviceable .22 suppressor.

Currently I have an A-TEC CMM4(6) which I have used on two different rifles with three different types of ammo. These are the salient points:

1) The suppressor is now up to the 9000 round mark, using a mix of Eley Sport, RWS target Rifle and CCI Mni-mag. I know that the Mini-mag doesn't suppress but I wanted a mix of coated and uncoated ammo.

2) I have not taken any steps to clean this suppressor, not even to spray any cleaner into the can, or open it in any way. I admit freely I am abusing this can by not taking even basic steps to clean it.

3) I have been weighing it and X-raying it after every 500 rounds. The overall trend is for it to pick up weight. It has now picked up 30g in weight but nonetheless it performs as expected.

4) Groups are still good.

5) I haven't tested the -dB scientifically but to my ear it remains the same (I shoot this without ear protection in all cases except when using CCI mini-mag.

6) There is evidence of deposit recycling (some areas collect residues and then lose residues over time). There are areas that have consistently collected residues over time.

You can read what I have found so far here:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lead-deposition-a-tec-cmm46-rimfire-suppressor-part-1-bertolli

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/lead-deposition-a-tec-cmm46-rimfire-suppressor-part-2-bertolli

By the way, I can see only two possible conclusions to this test:

1) The suppressor reaches a "critical mass" of lead deposition, and does not take on any more weight. At this point the suppressor may not function as intended (either because of groups or suppression)

2) Some sort of structural failure happens (less likely)

I'll be making a third post on LinkedIn when I have the answer, which I suspect will happen after the 20,000 round mark.

Based on the performance of the A-TEC CMM4 so far, I would not hesitate to recommend it for either a pistol or a rifle. Mine is the 6 baffle version.

I am in the process of getting another 10 suppressors for another batch of testing. There will be certain changes to how I do the X-rays and also I want to measure the groups and velocity changes. I'll put that on LinkedIn when I have the final list...

Odd Job
08-20-2016, 07:09
This is the CMM4(6) at 9000 rounds:

http://i.imgur.com/ms9HXFj.jpg

JJ_BPK
08-20-2016, 07:23
Actually preliminary results from research I am doing...

I am in the process of getting another 10 suppressors for another batch of testing. There will be certain changes to how I do the X-rays and also I want to measure the groups and velocity changes. I'll put that on LinkedIn when I have the final list...

Thank you for the post,, Great data point,,

Q?? What weapon were you using? A pistol or rifle(and barrel length)?

I ask because I use my can on the pistols more often than not and I suspect the shorter barrel prevents complete burn of the powder, hence more condensation of particulate inside the baffle stack?

Here is an example of a SWR Spectre II baffle stack that is a bit dirty, after 3K-3.5K rounds..

https://www.primalrights.com/reviews/swr-spectre-ii-update

There could be some metallurgy disparity/significance between the two manufacturing styles. One being more pron to particulate adhesion??

:munchin

Odd Job
08-20-2016, 07:40
Q?? What weapon were you using? A pistol or rifle(and barrel length)?

I use two rifles, one is a SIG522 and the other is an R55 Benchmark. I'll get exact lengths when I am at the range tomorrow.

I ask because I use my can on the pistols more often than not and I suspect the shorter barrel prevents complete burn of the powder, hence more condensation of particulate inside the baffle stack?

Here is an example of a SWR Spectre II baffle stack that is a bit dirty, after 3K-3.5K rounds..

https://www.primalrights.com/reviews...ctre-ii-update

There could be some metallurgy disparity/significance between the two manufacturing styles. One being more prone to particulate adhesion??

I fully believe that differences in air space volume in the can and also the geometry of the baffles will influence where the residues collect and how fast.

For that reason I have selected the next ten suppressors based on different materials and internal geometry.

I have two ASE-Utra suppressors with individual steel baffles set at an angle, which I have fired several thousand rounds through. Except in that case, I have at least sprayed Napier cleaner into the can at some point. One of them I didn't clean for 2000 rounds and it looked well leaded up when I took it apart.

By the way, we have several members at our club with .22 "pistols."
There has to be a coat hanger wire stuck out of the grip of the gun otherwise it has to have a ridiculously long barrel to comply with UK laws. So I regard them more as uncomfortable carbines.

I'm not quite willing to spend 900 on a pistol to test the deposition rate on two suppressors using the same ammo (rifle vs pistol), but that would be a great test to prove whether deposition rates are increased with a pistol suppressor.

A similar test would be a long suppressor vs short, on the same gun. I can do that with an A-TEC 4 baffle vs 6. My suspicion being that residues which might be free to exit the 4 baffle suppressor might ultimately be caught by the 6 baffle version.

JJ_BPK
08-20-2016, 08:08
By the way, we have several members at our club with .22 "pistols."
There has to be a coat hanger wire stuck out of the grip of the gun otherwise it has to have a ridiculously long barrel to comply with UK laws. So I regard them more as uncomfortable carbines.

I'm not quite willing to spend 900 on a pistol to test the deposition rate on two suppressors using the same ammo (rifle vs pistol), but that would be a great test to prove whether deposition rates are increased with a pistol suppressor.



Yes,, the UK laws on evil short barrel "guns"...

Along those lines,, As I understand the UK allows compressed air weapons IF they have a power rating of xxx & lower..

Is there a similar restriction on .22 cal ammo and is the UK 22 cal ammo equivalent to US ammo?? As an example,, US CCI MINI-Mag is touted as being 135 ft lbs or 183+ J,, with a speed of 1235 ft/sec ..


PS: I am so jealous your gov has the mental capacity to realize that weapon suppression is not evil and you are allowed unfretted access to suppressors..

Odd Job
08-20-2016, 08:15
Some other variables:

1) Although we know that the residues are composed of propellant, bullet coating/wax and bullet lead, the density on the radiographs indicates that lead is the prime contributor to the residues. I can't give you an exact chemical composition though (I would have to do that at the end...)

2) The available propellant in subsonic (or near) vs supersonic ammunition. I don't use subsonic ammunition but the Eley Sport and RWS Target Rifle are near enough at 1066 fps that the suppression works for those rounds. It does not work for the 1400 fps CCI.

3) Semi-auto vs bolt. Both my rifles are semi-auto, and both of those exhibit greater collection of blowback residues into the receiver when firing suppressed vs unsuppressed. It follows that a suppressor used on a bolt gun is likely to collect residues at a faster rate than the semi-auto if all other factors are constant. As a matter of interest, I have also found that the SIG522 requires much more frequent cleaning than the R55, after firing suppressed. I generally get chambering issues on the SIG after 400 rounds not cleaned, vs around 900 with the R55. Also the SIG has an enclosed firing pin and spring which promotes entrapment of gunk in the firing pin channel whereas the R55 has an exposed firing pin on its whole length, which makes it more reliable when dirty.

4) Cleaning of the firearm. I fire a bunch of "fouling rounds" unsuppressed after I have cleaned the rifle. This is because I don't want cleaning product residues coming into the can at all.

Odd Job
08-20-2016, 08:28
Along those lines,, As I understand the UK allows compressed air weapons IF they have a power rating of xxx & lower..

Until recently, yes. You could buy an air pistol with less than 6 foot pounds energy at the muzzle, or an air rifle with less than 12 without a licence. If you got a suppressor for that, it would not need a license either as long as you used it on the air weapon only.

But then, recently Scotland (the California of the UK) introduced a law where ANY air weapon must have a license, even if it is barely powerful enough to eject the projectile from the muzzle. I don't know how they can police that, since the weapons already owned aren't registered. It's like 30 round mags in Colorado I guess...

Is there a similar restriction on .22 cal ammo and is the UK 22 cal ammo equivalent to US ammo?? As an example,, US CCI MINI-Mag is touted as being 135 ft lbs or 183+ J,, with a speed of 1235 ft/sec ..


There's no restriction on the ammo in terms of velocity, but a range might only be certified for rimfire for example. There are limits with expanding ammunition and shotgun slugs. Expanding ammunition is deemed to be for hunting and humane despatch, so if I wanted it for my suppressors I would have to get solid ammo. Due to cost it makes more sense for me to stick with RWS or Eley Sport. Shotgun slugs are approved for Target Shotgun, I have these because I have one of those Bora BR99 semi-auto shotguns for target shotgun.

PS: I am so jealous your gov has the mental capacity to realize that weapon suppression is not evil and you are allowed unfretted access to suppressors..

Unfortunately we still have to have a license for a suppressor on a fiream, but there is little resistance to getting it and in fact it is encouraged (less noise at the range, better for hearing protection). You pay your 26 variation fee on your license and an agreed number of slots for suppressors gets put on the certificate. If you have 8 rifles they will give you 8 suppressors. If they are on your certificate you can just go to a gunshop, pick one off the shelf and pay for it and walk out with it straight away. Prices are 30 to 300. That 6 baffle A-TEC was 84 retail and that's a quality suppressor.

For me to get 10 suppressors required a bit more explanation as I only have 3 rifles for them to go on. However once I provided evidence of the research I am doing, they were approved. I immediately placed an order for 8 cans from three different shops....

When those arrive I will have a total of 13 suppressors, all rimfire.

Red Flag 1
08-20-2016, 16:38
You really do not want to shoot 22 in a sealed can, but especially in a high pressure situation like 308 and 556. The lead from 22 builds up very rapidly. It is possible to create lead obstructions or worse lead obstructions that can cause variations of gas flow that create high pressure areas that can cause best case an end cap strike, or worst, burst the vessel/tube entirely when returning to centerfire. People shoot 22 in 556 cans all the time, but it's taking huge risk. I don't agree with the "just shoot some 556 after 22 to clean it out" speech.

Shooting 22 out of a 556 and 308 is tempting because of tone. It sounds really quiet, but what you are really hearing is the change in tone due to volume. If you like that tone buy or make a form 1 high volume 22 can. My AWC 9mm MK9 is stupid quiet on 10/22s and 22 bolt guns, but it's two inches in diameter and twelve inches long. It's also user serviceable. But compare that tradeoff to a market average of one inch by five inch cans for 22 now that weight just about nothing. What would you rather carry around all day?

Agree with above, the weight alone would make it a terrible choice.
J
Only buy a 22 can that is user serviceable. Silencerco, dead air, gem tech, Griffin, rugged are all top contenders right now. YHM and AAC is good bang for the buck as well. When you read about weights, dbs, and materials, you will quickly see that you get what you pay for. Drop by silencer talk and read around for a bit. There is also tons of video reviews on YouTube for just about every can in existence now.

.....I will submit AWC and Thompson as pretty darn good too.

Listing names is getting rough these days. Not much is sacred anymore sound wise. It's very stiff competition between about a dozen mainstream companies. It's starting to be more about the people that run the companies and customer service than the product themselves. It's a permanent investment and a real pain to deal with atf paperwork. The question that everyone should ask is if the company stands by its product and customers. In that regard you may see some doing better than others.

Does this problem hold true for larger caliber weapons, say a 30-30?

JJ_BPK
08-20-2016, 20:56
Does this problem hold true for larger caliber weapons, say a 30-30?

If you are asking about 30 cal cans,, You need to check each manufacture.

I have a SelencerCo Omega 30 cal can that is rated thru 300 Win Mag, so 30-30, 30-40 krag, 30 Remington, 300 Savage, 30.06, 7.62x51, 7.62x54, 7.62x39, ect are all GTG..

BUT,, magnums like the Weatherby and any custom mag/belted class ammo probably have to much of a pressure wave and may blow out the can..

As far as a 30 can and smaller calibers, like the .556/.223, They will work in most cans,, with proper barrel adapter,, BUT should be check with the individual manufacture..

:munchin

Red Flag 1
08-20-2016, 23:04
If you are asking about 30 cal cans,, You need to check each manufacture.

I have a SelencerCo Omega 30 cal can that is rated thru 300 Win Mag, so 30-30, 30-40 krag, 30 Remington, 300 Savage, 30.06, 7.62x51, 7.62x54, 7.62x39, ect are all GTG..

BUT,, magnums like the Weatherby and any custom mag/belted class ammo probably have to much of a pressure wave and may blow out the can..

As far as a 30 can and smaller calibers, like the .556/.223, They will work in most cans,, with proper barrel adapter,, BUT should be check with the individual manufacture..

:munchin

Thanks for the reply, and your insight.

I have both a 30-30, and a 30-06. I was thinking about something for the 30-30 carbine. On the one hand, screwing a can on the 30-30 may take away beauty of how handy to carbine is. I suppose I could carry the suppressor unmounted, and add it to the weapon when needed.

JJ_BPK
08-21-2016, 06:10
Thanks for the reply, and your insight.

I have both a 30-30, and a 30-06. I was thinking about something for the 30-30 carbine. On the one hand, screwing a can on the 30-30 may take away beauty of how handy to carbine is. I suppose I could carry the suppressor unmounted, and add it to the weapon when needed.

The 30.30 would be a nice round to put thru a can. It's ballistics is very similar to the 300 Blackout. The locked lever action, over an active bolt carrier of a semi-auto would also quite the perceived noise somewhat. :lifter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXc0rm6dzVs

35NCO
08-21-2016, 08:54
Red, JJ is right. As far as pressure concerns contact the manufacturer of each suppressor you are interested in.

I have posted here before on the pros and cons of hybrids. My position is currently against, but strictly from performance and weight. Whatever works best for your situation is the way to go, unless you have the capital to buy several devices for each caliber application.

35NCO
08-21-2016, 09:21
Brandon,

I have been following your work since your publication. Your research is awesome. Thank you for taking your own time and investment to do this.

I think the reasons for cleaning or not cleaning a .22 suppressor are different for us in the usa. I know I want my suppressors to last forever because tax stamps are expensive and take too long. If we wreck a suppressor here in any way that destroys the tube, it's a new stamp, new suppressor and new process for approval. Also, some manufactures will no longer touch leaded up suppressors due to federal EPA restrictions that cost their companies too much money.

What you are showing with your research is design affects lead build up. For suppression the current beleif is that optimum gas expansion bloom was around 58.5/60 degrees. Hence, K, M, Cones, and Omega baffles. Within this degree region there is optimal deceleration of the expanding gas. I would conclude that with the best deceleration areas there will be greater deposits of lead. Much like searching for places to pan for gold in a waterflow.

I would wager that baffles without some sort of special coating nor frictionless metallurgical property, that do not gather deposit, are too free flowing and therefore less efficient.

Overall, the baffles can still be terribly inefficient, but the device have a good decibel reduction and tone due to overall volume and total dwell time.

I would like to see you appropriately test dB, under your mil UK std and us military 1474D. Also, I would consider FLIR during each firing iteration, and surface piezo pressure readings above each chamber.

Where the device may seem quiet and even quieter at some points, I believe there will be increase in chamber and vessel pressures and decrease in dB reduction over time. These two would be my argument for cleaning in that a safety factor is decreasing and efficiency is decreasing with further lead deposit.

A final thought is our and your medical science has had a lot of recent discussions on the dangers of humans to the exposure to lead at ranges. Keeping the device cleaner would help to prevent it from being a lead misting device at indoor ranges.

Red Flag 1
08-21-2016, 10:15
The 30.30 would be a nice round to put thru a can. It's ballistics is very similar to the 300 Blackout. The locked lever action, over an active bolt carrier of a semi-auto would also quite the perceived noise somewhat. :lifter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXc0rm6dzVs

Number three is exactly what I am looking for.

Thank you for your reply, expert advice, and pics.

JJ_BPK
08-21-2016, 11:39
Number thee is exactly what I am looking for.

Thank you for your reply, expert advice, and pics.

I would also look at .357 mag or 45 LC in a lever. Shorter rounds, higher count and a good 100yd critter catcher??

blue02hd
08-21-2016, 11:46
Red,

For my .02 cents, I wouldn't bother suppressing a lever action unless you have a "requirement" to do so, and then I'd say let those requiring you to do so carry the bill.

For me, the nostalgia of the lever action, especially as you watch your pre teen boy explode 2 liter coke bottles is damn near spiritual. You might lose the reason you love the rifle if you try to make it something it is not. Well, at-least that's what I once told my ex wife.

When you consider the costs, I'm not sure if there is a strong enough argument for me to Frankenstein up my cowboy guns.

I mean, the deer won't care if you hit them properly anyhow, right?

What Would The Duke Say?

Red Flag 1
08-21-2016, 14:10
I would also look at .357 mag or 45 LC in a lever. Shorter rounds, higher count and a good 100yd critter catcher??

I've had the 30-30 for quite a while. I opted for the Marlin if I decide to put a scope on it. I've liked it for it's ease to carry, and I've been pretty happy using just the iron sights. Like Blue points out, "What would the Duke say?'.

I do have a scope mounted 30-06 that is mag fed. I've had some luck with the carbine dropping a deer with a single shot. Many of the places I go, make the 30-06 a better choice. It also might be a better choice for the can because of the shot distance. Not to say I miss sometimes, but it would be a shame to scatter all the game away with such a loud noise.


Red,

For my .02 cents, I wouldn't bother suppressing a lever action unless you have a "requirement" to do so, and then I'd say let those requiring you to do so carry the bill.

For me, the nostalgia of the lever action, especially as you watch your pre teen boy explode 2 liter coke bottles is damn near spiritual. You might lose the reason you love the rifle if you try to make it something it is not. Well, at-least that's what I once told my ex wife.

When you consider the costs, I'm not sure if there is a strong enough argument for me to Frankenstein up my cowboy guns.

I mean, the deer won't care if you hit them properly anyhow, right?

What Would The Duke Say?



You're right. Prolly best to put the can on the 30-06.

Thanks guys!

Odd Job
08-21-2016, 14:12
I think the reasons for cleaning or not cleaning a .22 suppressor are different for us in the usa. I know I want my suppressors to last forever because tax stamps are expensive and take too long. If we wreck a suppressor here in any way that destroys the tube, it's a new stamp, new suppressor and new process for approval. Also, some manufactures will no longer touch leaded up suppressors due to federal EPA restrictions that cost their companies too much money.

That's a well-taken point. If I mess up this A-TEC, it will be hardly any bother for me to get another one. The cost is much less, and the burden of paperwork is less than what you have to contend with also.

I would also like to test the -dB. It may be affordable to rent a suitable meter but I don't have the expertise to run it. I'll be looking into it further, maybe I can get someone to do it for me once I have all 10 cans on the start line. I've picked cans with markedly different internals: should be very interesting!

The lead hazard is also good advice. I've had a recent serum lead level test which puts me at an elevated level, but not high enough for concern/treatment. One of the things I tested recently was using a 3M 7502 mask with P100 filters but of course I can't get a good cheek weld on the R55 with that. I look like a proper moron wearing it also, but that's another story...
I might have to just slow down the rate I shoot. I'm well over 1000 rounds a month, recently it is more like 2000...

Oh, and I measured the barrels today: the SIG is just under 17" and the R55 is 18"

The Reaper
08-21-2016, 19:59
Number thee is exactly what I am looking for.

Thank you for your reply, expert advice, and pics.


Or you could just get a .300 Blackout upper, and have 30 or more rounds available, sub sonic or super sonic.

I doubt that there are a lot of companies making subsonic .30-30.

TR

Jgood
08-21-2016, 23:31
Griffin Optimus will go done to .22lr and up to 308 not sure about their over all use but I have 3 Griffin products right now the 22 checkmate, Recce 7 and waiting on the Rev 45 am happy with my purchases.

35NCO
08-26-2016, 19:05
.......

I mean, the deer won't care if you hit them properly anyhow, right? U

What Would The Duke Say?

Little late in response for me, but I would add most, (if not all?), of Teddy Roosevelt's lever guns had Maxim suppressors on them. That's a guy that knew something about hunting and combat in our American history. So it's not completely that plain jane lever guns never had cans historically. Just Google Roosevelt's suppressed "silenced" guns. ( There is also a lot of silencer banning propaganda from NY times and post, floating about from his day sourced around his hunting with them, with claims that only poachers would use silencers and he would use them to silence his political opposition. It's a part of how the populace started to believe suppressors were evil things. Good research about it in Trubys book.)

http://www.google.com/search?q=teddy+roosevelt+silencer+cartoon&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibpozbqeDOAhVCQiYKHTuICMkQ_AUICSgB&biw=1024&bih=636&dpr=2#imgrc=ttRl_BOE7mIvzM%3A

http://www.google.com/search?sclient=tablet-gws&biw=1024&bih=260&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=teddy+roosevelt+silencer+&oq=teddy+roosevelt+silencer+&gs_l=tablet-gws.12...190877.192359.0.193312.7.7.0.0.0.0.245.65 0.6j0j1.7.0....0...1c.1.64.tablet-gws..0.1.244...30i10k1.0CZmdrIePRU