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Brush Okie
05-21-2016, 10:55
Any ideas what may have gone wrong? I am guessing someone got thier ammo wet. Any other ideas?

http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/nypd-checking-ammo-after-knifemans-jacket-stops-cops-bullets/?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=NYPFacebook&utm_medium=SocialFlow

Four of the shots that cops fired at a madman waving a knife in Midtown failed to penetrate his jacket — which was not bulletproof — and the NYPD will now check the weapons for malfunction, law enforcement sources told The Post.

“The bullets we have may be defective and that’s very disturbing,” one source said. “When we fire our weapons, we want to make damn sure that our bullets hit our target — neutralizing our target.”

A sergeant and an officer fired a total of nine rounds at 46-year-old Garry Conrad on Wednesday, with one of the shots killing the depressed Broadway stagehand who refused to drop the blade at West 49th Street and Eighth Avenue.
Four of the bullets got lodged in Conrad’s Carhartt jacket, sources said, adding that he was not wearing a bulletproof vest.

Another shot grazed the wrist of bystander Lauran Code, a 46-year-old lingerie designer from California.

Sources said the incident does not appear to be a pattern, but the 9mm guns used by the officers are going to be checked for malfunctions.

John Cerar, a retired NYPD deputy inspector who headed the department’s Tactics and Firearms Section from 1985 through 1994, said the incident was difficult to fathom.

“I have not heard anything like this. There would be no reason for it,” Cerar said. “There would have to be some kind of defect. I would certainly look at the ammunition.”

Cerar noted that he recalled one incident in the 1970s in which the target of a police shooting escaped injury when one bullet struck his leather jacket and was somehow deflected, failing to wound the man.

“It was just an anomaly,” he recalled of that incident.

“An anomaly is one thing, but four anomalies is another thing entirely,” Cerar said, referring to the four bullets that never penetrated Conrad.

Cerar added that “there could be a defect in the weapon” of some sort, but a “defect in the ammunition” was more likely.

He insisted that an investigation into the matter is imperative. “It sounds like a problem and should be looked into.”

JJ_BPK
05-21-2016, 18:02
1st choice ammo..

#2 There are several gun scribes that use 6-8 layers of Levi Jean material in front of ballistic jell. Never did enough homework to determine why..

And Carhartt has a reputation for heavy duty material. They also make flame retardant items..

It could have been a combo of multi layer stuff??

Brush Okie
05-21-2016, 18:10
1st choice ammo..

#2 There are several gun scribes that use 6-8 layers of Levi Jean material in front of ballistic jell. Never did enough homework to determine why..

And Carhartt has a reputation for heavy duty material. They also make flame retardant items..

It could have been a combo of multi layer stuff??

The standard FBI test came out of the 1986 Miami shootout. They found that when a hollow point hits someone with heavy clothing many times the cavity filled with cloth and the bullet failed to open up and actually over penetrate. The standard test is four layers of denim and ideally the bullet opens up and penetrates between 12 and 18 inches. Where they come up with those numbers I do not know but the idea is the bullet will go deep enough to hit vital organs even on a side shot through an arm, yet not go all the way through someone and hitting an innocent bystander. Some folks say you also want the bullet to stop inside in order to "dump" all its energy. I am not a big fan of that theory but I am also not an expert I just hunted my whole life and treated several gun shots so what do I know.

alelks
05-21-2016, 19:58
A good clothing test.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-8-the-rags-o-truth/

The Reaper
05-21-2016, 21:51
Failure to expand and failure to penetrate are opposite ends of the same problem.

You have to do some research to find a load that does both consistently, and even then, the factory can change the specs and you have to start over again.

I try and find one that is consistently reliable, accurate, expands and penetrates well though tissue and clothing.

Then I try and buy a case of it.

It ain't easy.

Once you have a round that works, you really only need to occasionally expend your carry rounds and test fire new weapons. Most shooting is with reloads or ball ammo.

NYC's LE Admins have a habit of making mistakes and poor decisions in their firearms and ammunition selection. With reduced capacity mags, heavy triggers, and limited range time, weak, non-penetrating, non-expanding ammo does not seem like a real stretch either.

TR

35NCO
05-21-2016, 22:31
And I just assumed that with all the previous and current NYPD shooting lawsuits, someone got smart and decided on risk mitigation,

Was that also in the SAFE act in the fine print?

Odd Job
06-01-2016, 14:49
There isn't enough info for us outsiders to comment at present. We would need access to the clothing and plot all the terminal trajectories before any useful assessment could be made.

Team Sergeant
06-01-2016, 14:59
There isn't enough info for us outsiders to comment at present. We would need access to the clothing and plot all the terminal trajectories before any useful assessment could be made.

And how many decades those bullets were in the gun before being used. Yeah, some cops never fire their weapons and never want to and would not change their ammo unless directed to do so.

Old Dog New Trick
06-01-2016, 16:18
And how many decades those bullets were in the gun before being used. Yeah, some cops never fire their weapons and never want to and would not change their ammo unless directed to do so.

BINGO! TS wins a prize.

1) Duty ammo not routinely cycled out. (Budgetary constraints or poor department planning)
2) Duty ammo exposed to high humidity and/or body sweat. (Very likely)
3) Duty ammo exposed to oils and other penetrating liquids causing insufficient burn rate or primer malfunction. (Lazy or improper training)

Doesn't sound like the gun had a fault unless a revolver with light strike firing pin. A semi-auto would (most likely) fail to function after the first round.

Any of the above or - a limp wristed pansy and low power training 9mm ammo.

mark46th
06-01-2016, 21:24
NYPD needs to change from .177 pellets to the full-on .22 caliber pellets ...

CAARNG 68W
06-01-2016, 22:25
The standard FBI test came out of the 1986 Miami shootout. They found that when a hollow point hits someone with heavy clothing many times the cavity filled with cloth and the bullet failed to open up and actually over penetrate. The standard test is four layers of denim and ideally the bullet opens up and penetrates between 12 and 18 inches. Where they come up with those numbers I do not know but the idea is the bullet will go deep enough to hit vital organs even on a side shot through an arm, yet not go all the way through someone and hitting an innocent bystander. Some folks say you also want the bullet to stop inside in order to "dump" all its energy. I am not a big fan of that theory but I am also not an expert I just hunted my whole life and treated several gun shots so what do I know.

Interesting analysis

Odd Job
06-08-2016, 04:19
Looks like the story has changed. They are now saying the rounds performed as expected:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-police-bullets-didn-bounce-knife-wielding-psycho-article-1.2659348

JJ_BPK
06-08-2016, 06:01
The bullets did not penetrate the back of Conrad’s jacket.

“There was not enough energy to perforate the rear articles of clothing. This is not the first time. This is a common occurrence,” Katranakis said.

Authorities had been concerned the incorrect report would lead to officers thinking they were armed with deficient equipment.


link: Ministry of Love (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-police-bullets-didn-bounce-knife-wielding-psycho-article-1.2659348)

Sounds like News-Speak?? Ministry of Love needs to step in and calm the Proles..

Odd Job
06-12-2016, 17:12
Strange things can happen when clothing plays a role. See case 77 here:

http://tinyurl.com/gurwls9

JJ_BPK
06-12-2016, 17:31
"He was wearing jeans, a leather belt, a T-shirt and a padded waterproof jacket of the type that security guards in Johannesburg often wore at the time."

Could the jacket have been a stab-proof style, as worn by UK Constables?

In a four month period, 542 gunshot patients attended the hospital and I managed to process data from 150 of those cases. I photographed the wounds, clothing and any recovered projectiles or fragments relating to those patients in the hospital setting. I also reviewed the medical notes created during the patients' stay in the hospital and I would occasionally process information to do with the circumstances of the shooting if it was volunteered.

In one weekend in Chicago,, he could have had twice as many observations.. :munchin

Odd Job
06-13-2016, 01:19
Could the jacket have been a stab-proof style, as worn by UK Constables?

No, it wasn't.

The fact is, in many gunshot cases the bullet is retained just under the skin. By the time the bullet gets to the failed exit site it has lost its gyroscopic stability and has a much reduced chance of exiting.

Out of those 150 gunshot cases, there were 87 cases where projectiles were detected radiologically in the patient's body. Of those, the projectiles were palpable in 15 cases.

This fits my experience outside the research, where 10-15% of handgun rounds are trapped under the skin at the failed exit site. There are lots of other variables such as clothing and furniture buttressing.

In one weekend in Chicago,, he could have had twice as many observations..

Remember these were cases derived from only one hospital, where the patient was at least still alive when coming through the door. Figures were down because of the World Summit on Sustainable Development, but usually I would expect to see an average of 5 gunshot cases a day at that one hospital.

So it depends on catchment and fatality rate. If they have only one major trauma unit in Chicago they might get more cases on average at that one hospital.

However I would stick my neck out and say that your chances of catching a bullet in Joburg for no good reason are significantly higher than Chicago!

By the way, I am he in your quote :)

Odd Job
07-14-2016, 15:19
This makes sense (originally posted by "Detmongo" on M4Carbine.net):

Hey guys I was privy to photos of the perp the day of the shooting he has what is now known as three wounds to the torso two of the wounds are on each side of the upper torso around the clavicles the third is on the left side at the bottom of the rib cage. It is the this third wound and the fact that there is a spent projectile fully expanded laying on the body that caused all this fuss about the ammo not preforming properly. The third wound has the projectile sticking base first from the wound, so if looking at it, it appears the bullet failed to penetrate the torso when in fact it is the projectile exiting base first. The second projectile seen laying on the torso had fallen from the clothing while EMS was working on the subject and someone placed the spent projectile on the body after the subject was pronounced dead by EMS. The subject also took a few hits to the face not sure how many. Hope this clarifies what happened during this shooting.

Thread is here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?184510-Is-a-Carhartt-jacket-bulletproof/page3