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Here is some more interesting news on the Trump front.......will it hurt his support base and his chances?
I have been challenged on the existence of the Trump documentary whose American broadcast rights have been purchased so as to release it at the worst possible time when the shape shifter wins the GOP nomination.
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2016/02/i-have-been-challeged-on-existence-of.html
Here is some more interesting news on the Trump front.......will it hurt his support base and his chances?
http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/2016/02/i-have-been-challeged-on-existence-of.html
People are about to start peeling off Donnie and onto Cruz and Rubio.
I bring up the nightmare scenario again-Trump loses the nomination, goes third party, Perots the vote and a commie gets in the catbird seat with a loaded SCOTUS.
Shivers me timbers.
].......I bring up the nightmare scenario again-Trump loses the nomination, goes third party, Perots the vote and a commie gets in the catbird seat with a loaded SCOTUS.
Shivers me timbers.
I have said before - if Trump and Cruz go into the convention with the majority of the primary votes and the majority of the delegates but not enough for the win - and on the second or third vote somebody like Rubio or Bush is elected the winner I am voting third party - even if the only candidate is from the Green Party.
It would be fun to see the Donald CRUSH the field...
...so that there is no choice for the republicans but to nominate Bush
While Bernie DESTROYS shrillary so bad that the democrats have no choice but to nominate Hillary
...and then see Donald AND Bernie launch independent runs at the prize.
mark46th
02-20-2016, 16:26
"While Bernie DESTROYS shrillary so bad that the democrats have no choice but to nominate Hillary" Billy L
The Democratic Party has a rule that allows the Dems to award Super Delegates to whomever they please, no matter the outcome of a Primary. What is stupefying is that with all the crimes and irresponsibility that comes with Hillary, they still want to nominate her. The Democratic party leaders are completely devoid of morals.
I have said before - if Trump and Cruz go into the convention with the majority of the primary votes and the majority of the delegates but not enough for the win - and on the second or third vote somebody like Rubio or Bush is elected the winner I am voting third party - even if the only candidate is from the Green Party.
Same here.
I have said before - if Trump and Cruz go into the convention with the majority of the primary votes and the majority of the delegates but not enough for the win - and on the second or third vote somebody like Rubio or Bush is elected the winner I am voting third party - even if the only candidate is from the Green Party.
You won't be on that ride alone.
You won't be on that ride alone.
I will be right there with ya.
Like Trump or not, tonight was not a debate it was a destroy Trump night hosted by Fox....all I saw tonight was a bunch of petulant children dog piling on one guy. Rubio and Cruz looked like the losers.
Tonight more than any of the other nights was the perfect example of why nothing gets accomplished in DC, and why our government leaders and the media have such poor approval ratings.
In the process of their fun and games with The Donald they may have just made him a Martyr.
Poll: Who won the Fox debate (3/3/16)? How did Trump do in the Detroit Republican debate?
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/03/poll_who_won_the_republican_presidential_debate_03 .html
Businessman Donald Trump 64.08% (23,949 votes)
Ohio Gov. John Kasich 18.37% (6,865 votes)
U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas 8.49% (3,172 votes)
U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio 6.8% (2,541 votes)
I don't know. 2.26% (845 votes)
Total Votes: 37,372
The ruling elites are drinking heavily right now,
Poll: Who won the Fox debate (3/3/16)? How did Trump do in the Detroit Republican debate?
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/03/poll_who_won_the_republican_presidential_debate_03 .html
Businessman Donald Trump 64.08% (23,949 votes)
Ohio Gov. John Kasich 18.37% (6,865 votes)
U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas 8.49% (3,172 votes)
U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio 6.8% (2,541 votes)
I don't know. 2.26% (845 votes)
Total Votes: 37,372
The ruling elites are drinking heavily right now,
Drudge Poll is looking similar.
In F'in credible, people are really seeing through RNC attempt to place their pck on the alter.
If you from the NYC AO, you just love watching Trump being the New Yorker that he is, handling the blows, its like "OK, we're going done this road, I"M there , what can I say." IT's crazy.
I was watching the stage as the candidates departed, Cruz and Rubio did everything to not shake Trumps hand, which he extended to them at they left the stage, Rubio made a fist and gave Trump a punch shake, Cruz turned and walked away. Only the Governor shook Trumps hand. Very telling.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/03/who_won_the_11th_republican_presidential_debate_vo te_in_our_poll.html
OLL
Who won the Republican debate?
Ted Cruz
4%
John Kasich
16%
Marco Rubio
4%
Donald Trump
74%
Fox News
CAARNG 68W
03-04-2016, 02:31
I was watching the stage as the candidates departed, Cruz and Rubio did everything to not shake Trumps hand, which he extended to them at they left the stage, Rubio made a fist and gave Trump a punch shake, Cruz turned and walked away. Only the Governor shook Trumps hand. Very telling.
What a group of some sore ass losers. Couple of punks.
And to think I once wrote on these very boards, "Trump-Rubio"
Here is what Lou Dobbs has to say
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BHIYhsAuGw
CAARNG
What a group of some sore ass losers. Couple of punks.
There are many ways in which you can express your opinion here, but calling either of these candidates "punks" is unnecessary, both Cruz and Rubio are good men, their view is important. Your view, not so much, but like a mirror, reflects whats before it.
I have said before - if Trump and Cruz go into the convention with the majority of the primary votes and the majority of the delegates but not enough for the win - and on the second or third vote somebody like Rubio or Bush is elected the winner I am voting third party - even if the only candidate is from the Green Party.
Gallup on the potential impact of self-described Independents.
**In politics, as of today do you consider yourself a Republican, a Democrat, or an Independent?
30% Rep - 37% Indep - 30% Dem
**(Asked of Independents) As of today, do you lean more to the Deemocratic Party or the Republican Party?
Reps (including 'leaners') 43%
Dems (including 'leaners') 46%
http://www.gallup.com/poll/15370/Party-Affiliation.aspx
And so it goes...
Richard
Drudge Poll is looking similar.
Don't get me wrong, I will vote for whoever the nominee is on the republican side.............however.
I ding it hard to fucking believe that so many people idolize a child in a 70 year old's body who makes faces and interrupts like my 4 year old son. His debate performance was borderline pathetic and he is yet to add any new substance to his "routine" in the last 6 months.
Cruz has the only chance of stopping this "trumpster fire". And yes, it is Jackwagons like John kasich sticking around like a lost homeless person holding the margin between Cruz and trump.
Too bad we can't fire candidates.
Don't get me wrong, I will vote for whoever the nominee is on the republican side.............however.
I ding it hard to fucking believe that so many people idolize a child in a 70 year old's body who makes faces and interrupts like my 4 year old son. His debate performance was borderline pathetic and he is yet to add any new substance to his "routine" in the last 6 months.
Cruz has the only chance of stopping this "trumpster fire". And yes, it is Jackwagons like John kasich sticking around like a lost homeless person holding the margin between Cruz and trump.
Too bad we can't fire candidates.
Every single candidate this season has had a schtick. Trump speil has been say it like it is, poll numbers and making things great again, Jeb had MY PLAN and When I was Florida Governor, Kaisch has his waving hands, Carson is mild mannered, Ted Cruz is a traveling evangelist and Rubio....When I am President.
They have all made promises they have no idea they can fulfill.
But from the beginning it was Trump who from day one who set the pace with media bias, immigration, the VA, Veterans, job loss and politicial corruption.....instead of the mind numbing scripted dance of death that would have suited Jeb.
Fact is I did not watch the first debate because I knew it would be just another boring lie fest guided by Robert Rules of Order. But I watched a re-run on YouTube after excited customers urged me to watch the Trump lay waste to the Panel and found that Trump had completely upended the entire prescribed process. It was gut wrenching laughter!
Now considering that the main contenders Bush, Rubio and Cruz squandered their resources attacking one man does not say much about their abilities... The last couple of debates Rubio and Cruz have spent most of their air time attacking Trump instead of getting their messages out......It would appear that Trump has had the better game plan with Speed, Surprise and the Violence of Action...He hit the ground running, surprised the OPFOR and inflicted heavy casualities from day one.......the rest of them are still waiting for command to come up with a strategy.
Like him or not, Trump has done what none of the other candidates has been capable of. He has single handedly got people excited, excited enough to get involved in the process again.
Every single candidate this season has had a schtick.......
Like him or not, Trump has done what none of the other candidates has been capable of. He has single handedly got people excited, excited enough to get involved in the process again.
Agreed.
But it's worth mentioning that with Trump that does include involved in opposition to him.
I stated here last year I thought there was no way Trump would make it.
That he was in it for free personal brand value.
I was wrong.
I think it is due to Americans being so angry at status quo politit's and willing to accept a crass cardboard caricature of Ronald Reagan.
I think it is due to Americans being so angry at status quo politit's and willing to accept a crass cardboard caricature of Ronald Reagan.
There is definitely anger, but I don't know if accepting is the right term. With the exception of Carson, all the candidates are politicians, most of them make a living being politicians and politicians have been the established norm for candidate choices for several decades.
Trump has broken that mold, he is a brash business man and he has run circles around every single candidate.
What do you have lose? it is either a continuation of death by a thousand cuts, or taking a chance on something new and different.......worse case is it all goes to shit el-pronto vs several decades. Best case, Trump has the best interest in mind for the country.
More of the same vs. taking a risk.
GratefulCitizen
03-05-2016, 17:08
If Trump gets the nomination, and if he is elected, I doubt he will accomplish much in terms of actively building a "new a better" whatever, nor will he actively "make America great" again.
However, he may well damage/destroy existing power structures and free the people to build a build a better future.
This is a dangerous course, as nature abhors a vacuum.
Like every preceding election, it's just a choice of evils.
If the people subsequently build a better America, he would of course take credit...
Win or lose Trump takin' his brand to the next level.
The nation is just along for the ride.
Every single candidate this season has had a schtick. Trump speil has been say it like it is, poll numbers and making things great again, Jeb had MY PLAN and When I was Florida Governor, Kaisch has his waving hands, Carson is mild mannered, Ted Cruz is a traveling evangelist and Rubio....When I am President.
They have all made promises they have no idea they can fulfill.
But from the beginning it was Trump who from day one who set the pace with media bias, immigration, the VA, Veterans, job loss and politicial corruption.....instead of the mind numbing scripted dance of death that would have suited Jeb.
Fact is I did not watch the first debate because I knew it would be just another boring lie fest guided by Robert Rules of Order. But I watched a re-run on YouTube after excited customers urged me to watch the Trump lay waste to the Panel and found that Trump had completely upended the entire prescribed process. It was gut wrenching laughter!
Now considering that the main contenders Bush, Rubio and Cruz squandered their resources attacking one man does not say much about their abilities... The last couple of debates Rubio and Cruz have spent most of their air time attacking Trump instead of getting their messages out......It would appear that Trump has had the better game plan with Speed, Surprise and the Violence of Action...He hit the ground running, surprised the OPFOR and inflicted heavy casualities from day one.......the rest of them are still waiting for command to come up with a strategy.
Like him or not, Trump has done what none of the other candidates has been capable of. He has single handedly got people excited, excited enough to get involved in the process again.
Im confused about what debate you were watching.
All I saw was a 3 year old making faces and interupting, like my 4 year old does. Whenever he is attacked with substance and given the opportunity to respond with a substantive argument, he takes the low road as many liberals do, with tactics like finger pointing and calling "LIAR"!.
Trump is a lightweight who has tapped into the anger of Americans who prefer talking points and publicity versus substance and factual evidence.
Not to mention, he is an advocate of equal gender integration in all Military fields.
I hope his combover gets caught in an escalator.
Ret10Echo
03-06-2016, 06:59
he may well damage/destroy existing power structures and free the people to build a build a better future.
If the people subsequently build a better America, he would of course take credit...
GC... concur.. The status-quo is unacceptable but my confidence in "the people" to make hard choices and to suffer a little bit today for a much better tomorrow is near zero.
Path of least resistance...
Im confused about what debate you were watching.
All I saw was a 3 year old making faces and interupting, like my 4 year old does. Whenever he is attacked with substance and given the opportunity to respond with a substantive argument, he takes the low road as many liberals do, with tactics like finger pointing and calling "LIAR"!.
Trump is a lightweight who has tapped into the anger of Americans who prefer talking points and publicity versus substance and factual evidence.
Not to mention, he is an advocate of equal gender integration in all Military fields.
I hope his combover gets caught in an escalator.
I hear what you are saying, IMO you had 3 individuals up there doing no favors for themselves. I turned the debate off midway through because it was going nowhere, it was 3 clown pissing all over each other. I give Trump a couple points for the plans his throwing out there (and Fox blew up), Cruz nor Rubio has thrown any of those bones. That is not to say anything Trump has conjured up can or will be possible but at least he is throwing it out there to chew on. On top of that Trump is still gaming Cruz and Rubio.
If you ask me I thought Kaisch out performed them all that night, I do not like Kaisch, but he did get his message out.
In the end Cruz and Rubio spent 10 30rd Mags EACH on Trump while he was flipping them the bird, and they didn't get a kill......I am not even sure they grazed him. And while Trump had Cruz and Rubio in the circle jerk, Kaisch circled round and got his job done.
Rubio nor Cruz can handle Trump, so how do you think they will handle the job of being President?
I hear what you are saying, IMO you had 3 individuals up there doing no favors for themselves. I turned the debate off midway through because it was going nowhere, it was 3 clown pissing all over each other. I give Trump a couple points for the plans his throwing out there (and Fox blew up), Cruz nor Rubio has thrown any of those bones. That is not to say anything Trump has conjured up can or will be possible but at least he is throwing it out there to chew on. On top of that Trump is still gaming Cruz and Rubio.
If you ask me I thought Kaisch out performed them all that night, I do not like Kaisch, but he did get his message out.
In the end Cruz and Rubio spent 10 30rd Mags EACH on Trump while he was flipping them the bird, and they didn't get a kill......I am not even sure they grazed him. And while Trump had Cruz and Rubio in the circle jerk, Kaisch circled round and got his job done.
Rubio nor Cruz can handle Trump, so how do you think they will handle the job of being President?
Im still having trouble grasping the actual "plans" that trump has.
He Marco is taking things to his level, but Ted is attempting to take the high road during debates. It is however difficult to speak when the guy next to you keeps saying, "lair, liar, false, liar" during your 30 second rebuttal period.
The Donald is a Liberal in disguise who has tapped into the vulnerabilities and frustrations of Americans as a whole.
The guy has zero substance during these debates and has been saying the same things since August of last year. All while continuing to basically ram home the argument that things are a "mess" and "horrible".
The bottom line, is that he is not in favor of the 10th Amendment, and for me..........that is a make or break deal. We need to roll back the overarching authority of the Fed and enable the states once again. Shit, you can't even get the Donald to admit that federal land grabs are getting out of control.
Badger52
03-07-2016, 20:50
"Judge" Jeanine had some words for Mitt Romney & the GOP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=srGlyFyghRk).
'bout 8 minutes so...
:munchin
Im still having trouble grasping the actual "plans" that trump has.
He Marco is taking things to his level, but Ted is attempting to take the high road during debates. It is however difficult to speak when the guy next to you keeps saying, "lair, liar, false, liar" during your 30 second rebuttal period.
The Donald is a Liberal in disguise who has tapped into the vulnerabilities and frustrations of Americans as a whole.
The guy has zero substance during these debates and has been saying the same things since August of last year. All while continuing to basically ram home the argument that things are a "mess" and "horrible".
The bottom line, is that he is not in favor of the 10th Amendment, and for me..........that is a make or break deal. We need to roll back the overarching authority of the Fed and enable the states once again. Shit, you can't even get the Donald to admit that federal land grabs are getting out of control.
Plans.....
Trump is going to build a wall, impose tariffs, bring jobs back :D But if I am not mistaken he has thrown some ideas out there for health care and some budget numbers, and I do believe in the last debate Fox took him to task on them. At least he has thrown something out there, unlike Cruz and Rubio who have yet to put forth much of anything other than dogging Trump 24/7.
It does not matter whether Trump is a liberal or not. His proposals are not important. Regardless of party the only plan any of these remaining clowns (including Hillary and Sanders) have is how to fuck the little people out of more money, and how to preserve their gravy train. How anyone can put any faith in either party or its candidates is beyond me.
None of the remaining individuals is going to save the day, because none has the moral character to do so. They all suck, but I was told that Hillary will get more votes because she is smarter than the rest!
The Good, Bad and the Ugly is all about TRUMP. Trump is the focus of everyones attention! He is making headlines! Trump has everyone trying to take him out! It is an amazing circle of chaos!
As I see it, if Trump pulls through the primary the RNC implodes! If the GOPe steals the primary the RNC implodes!! If Trump loses to Hillary the RNC implodes!!! If Trump wins the general election the RNC implodes!!!! No mater what the GOPe does it will lose!!!!! The GOPe sowed the seeds of their demise and they deserve what they are getting.
The GOPe were supposed to be the guardians of the conservatism. Their minions like Boehner, McConnell and Ryan promised the moon, they in turn had a mandate from the people and they ignored it. They failed the people, and the RNC deserves to be razed to the ground and its traitorous lot tarrred and feathered.
GO TRUMP!
"Judge" Jeanine had some words for Mitt Romney & the GOP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=srGlyFyghRk).
'bout 8 minutes so...
:munchin
tonyz beat you to it: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=605102&postcount=2
No need for the '' '' around Judge, Pirro was a judge in Westchester County, NY.
Pat
Badger52
03-08-2016, 06:00
tonyz beat you to it: http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=605102&postcount=2
No need for the '' '' around Judge, Pirro was a judge in Westchester County, NY.
PatAh, he's quick that one. :D
Thanks Pat, didn't know that about her although I used the quotes because I sometimes tire at the use of an occupational honorific on news shows to lend credence that Bob the Welder wouldn't have using the same words.
:)
GC... concur.. The status-quo is unacceptable but my confidence in "the people" to make hard choices and to suffer a little bit today for a much better tomorrow is near zero.
Path of least resistance...
I've always believed that if provoked enough, the American people could grow to be mean and tough but now I'm starting to question that. Bread and circuses. I'd like to think the end is not near for this Republic.
The Lives of Americans, The Livelihoods of the Drug Companies: Donald Trump Points the Way to a New Social Contract—Like It or Not
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/03/07/the-lives-of-americans-the-livelihoods-of-the-drug-companies-donald-trump-points-the-way-to-a-new-social-contract-like-it-or-not/
Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump
What a joke this guy has become.
We are in fact witnessing a liberal surrogate in action friends. It might be too late, so I will see you all on the high ground.
RomanCandle
04-01-2016, 05:10
The problem is that the article starts off by accusing Trumps proposal of being more Democrat than Republican. No mention at this point about whether it is good for the people of the USA. So partisanism (if that is a word) "trumps" again.
Then it covers the two aspects that he espouses: Re-importation and Price Negotiation.
1. Why are lobbyists so set against re-importation? Is it to "protect" US trade, or is it to protect the ability of US Drug Manufacturers to capture multiple patents allowing them to set what ever price they feel like. The fact that lobbyists are involved already makes the skin crawl. On the face of it it resembles the free market in action but there is likely massive manipulation going on.
Maybe the real question should be: Why do conditions prevail that make it possible that re-importation of US made drugs are done at a less expensive rate than those that were never imported in the first place?
2 Price Negotiation: I fail to see why there is a fear that Government 'negotiation' would turn into 'direction' unless seen simply as a threat to monopoly possibly caused by conditions prevailing in point 1. Is not the free market way that of negotiation?
I fully accept that not being a US resident I may not have the full picture here and there may be mistakes in my 'logic' but we have the identical problem in SA with pricing of drugs running rampant because of the capturing of multiple patents by pharmaceutical corporations and thus a total monopoly and stifling of competition. So much so that for many private Medical Aid companies will not cover the full or even most of the regimen of treatment making survival prospects significantly lower.
It appears that the art of negotiation and compromise has been lost to cynical greedy hands where profits are being made on both sides, and instead of addressing the underlying problem (god forbid the revolving door of backhanders and reserved multi-million dollar jobs for ex-regulators should grind to a halt) The stale old fallback of trying to regulate in band-aid solutions takes precedence.
I watched the interview Trump did with Mr Leg Tingle where he made the statements the news - and GOPe - have been harping on the last few days.
Mr Leg Tingle would never badger a D like that (HRC & e-mails).
I'd take the answer in the context of the whole interview for each subject.
I watched the interview Trump did with Mr Leg Tingle where he made the statements the news - and GOPe - have been harping on the last few days.
Mr Leg Tingle would never badger a D like that (HRC & e-mails).
I'd take the answer in the context of the whole interview for each subject.
Chris Matthews equates to garbage. I am so sick of the abortion topic in every election cycle I can't see straight. A stupid anchor point that has little bearing on keeping the USA together.
So Trump is getting hammered because he is Pro Life, the Evangelist Ted Cruz may have been bumping uglies with someone other than Heid and the GOP is getting ready to disembowel themselves.
The General Election is shaping up to be a barn burner.
We are in fact witnessing a liberal surrogate in action friends. It might be too late, so I will see you all on the high ground.
You must be referring to the Bill Kristol and Karl Rove GOPe types and funding by Patriots like George Soros
It appears that the art of negotiation and compromise has been lost to cynical greedy hands where profits are being made on both sides, and instead of addressing the underlying problem (god forbid the revolving door of backhanders and reserved multi-million dollar jobs for ex-regulators should grind to a halt) The stale old fallback of trying to regulate in band-aid solutions takes precedence.
It is all about cronyism and corporate welfare. Just look at how much money has been spent to thwart Trump when you combined the GOPe and Soros funding. And the effort......Hiring protestors on Craiglist for $15 per hour to attend Anti-Trump rallies.
You must be referring to the Bill Kristol and Karl Rove GOPe types
Why does it have to be like that? Anyone giving Trump more than a cursory look will see that he is anything but conservative. With Trump, what you see is not what you get.
Why does it have to be like that? Anyone giving Trump more than a cursory look will see that he is anything but conservative. With Trump, what you see is not what you get.
Being an Illusionist is a requirement of the politicial inhabitants of DC.
I believe the looming question is why the GOPe and George Soros have invested about a BILLION dollars to attack one man. What is the ROI they fore see? What is at stake? What I am reasonable confident of, is that they are not looking out for my best interest.
Being an Illusionist is a requirement of the politicial inhabitants of DC.
I believe the looming question is why the GOPe and George Soros have invested about a BILLION dollars to attack one man. What is the ROI they fore see? What is at stake? What I am reasonable confident of, is that they are not looking out for my best interest.
Okay I agree that the GOPe and Soros don't like him. That doesn't mean you have to support him though. I just don't understand why, with respect to people running for political office, we suspend the "actions speak louder than words" mantra and believe what they say. Because they are validating one's own view of things?
Peregrino
04-01-2016, 07:39
Being an Illusionist is a requirement of the politicial inhabitants of DC.
I believe the looming question is why the GOPe and George Soros have invested about a BILLION dollars to attack one man. What is the ROI they fore see? What is at stake? What I am reasonable confident of, is that they are not looking out for my best interest.
And therein lies the crux of the matter.
The choices are settling out to be Trump or Clinton. Trump may burn the house down (which might be a really good thing) but Clinton will burn the country down. And I'm not ready for the consequences of the latter. NTM - At least Trump hasn't engaged in blatant treason. Clinton needs to spend the rest of her life in solitary in a FEDMAX prison. That won't happen if she wins the election.
Roguish Lawyer
04-01-2016, 10:05
The choices are settling out to be Trump or Clinton.
Your math ain't so great today.
Okay I agree that the GOPe and Soros don't like him. That doesn't mean you have to support him though. I just don't understand why, with respect to people running for political office, we suspend the "actions speak louder than words" mantra and believe what they say. Because they are validating one's own view of things?
The establishment not liking Trump is an understatement. If actions spoke louder than words HRC (and many other politicians) would at best be spending life in prison.
I haven't believed anything emited from a politicians mouth since Read My Lips NO New TAXES.
My choices are a Jimmy Swaggert clone, a guy that comes off as a perverted uncle, a socialist guy who wants to give everything away, a female spawn of Satan and the Asshole Trump.
Waiting just outside the door is at least one slimeballs by the name of Paul Ryan that few will vote for.
I will take my chances with the asshole named Trump.
And therein lies the crux of the matter.
The choices are settling out to be Trump or Clinton. Trump may burn the house down (which might be a really good thing) but Clinton will burn the country down. And I'm not ready for the consequences of the latter. NTM - At least Trump hasn't engaged in blatant treason. Clinton needs to spend the rest of her life in solitary in a FEDMAX prison. That won't happen if she wins the election.
personally, with all of these wonderful talking points.........
I don't see why more people aren't obviously attracted to the only true conservative running. Yeah yeah, the postmaster general polls well against the beast from Arkansas............who cares. That guy couldn't debate his was out of a wet paper bag.
Same goes for Trump. Aside from 5 year old equivalent arguments like "he started it" and interrupting, he has minimal substance. After the entire fiasco with the supermarket tabloids...........I actually have come full circle with the determination that I will NEVER vote for that man. He is a snake and a coward and will deal our country into the next depression.
Herbert Hoover anyone?
An open letter from GOP foreign policy and national security leaders inre to a Donald J. Trump Presidency published 2 Mar 2016. The letter was coordinated by Eliot Cohen, a well-known 'hawk' within the GOP, a DOS counselor during the GWB Administration, and a professor at Johns Hopkins University’s School of Advanced International Studies. The letter is signed by 121 widely known members of those Republican communities.
Richard
We the undersigned, members of the Republican national security community, represent a broad spectrum of opinion on America’s role in the world and what is necessary to keep us safe and prosperous. We have disagreed with one another on many issues, including the Iraq war and intervention in Syria. But we are united in our opposition to a Donald Trump presidency. Recognizing as we do, the conditions in American politics that have contributed to his popularity, we nonetheless are obligated to state our core objections clearly:
His vision of American influence and power in the world is wildly inconsistent and unmoored in principle. He swings from isolationism to military adventurism within the space of one sentence.
His advocacy for aggressively waging trade wars is a recipe for economic disaster in a globally connected world.
His embrace of the expansive use of torture is inexcusable.
His hateful, anti-Muslim rhetoric undercuts the seriousness of combating Islamic radicalism by alienating partners in the Islamic world making significant contributions to the effort. Furthermore, it endangers the safety and Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of American Muslims.
Controlling our border and preventing illegal immigration is a serious issue, but his insistence that Mexico will fund a wall on the southern border inflames unhelpful passions, and rests on an utter misreading of, and contempt for, our southern neighbor.
Similarly, his insistence that close allies such as Japan must pay vast sums for protection is the sentiment of a racketeer, not the leader of the alliances that have served us so well since World War II.
His admiration for foreign dictators such as Vladimir Putin is unacceptable for the leader of the world’s greatest democracy.
He is fundamentally dishonest. Evidence of this includes his attempts to deny positions he has unquestionably taken in the past, including on the 2003 Iraq war and the 2011 Libyan conflict. We accept that views evolve over time, but this is simply misrepresentation.
His equation of business acumen with foreign policy experience is false. Not all lethal conflicts can be resolved as a real estate deal might, and there is no recourse to bankruptcy court in international affairs.
Mr. Trump’s own statements lead us to conclude that as president, he would use the authority of his office to act in ways that make America less safe, and which would diminish our standing in the world. Furthermore, his expansive view of how presidential power should be wielded against his detractors poses a distinct threat to civil liberty in the United States. Therefore, as committed and loyal Republicans, we are unable to support a Party ticket with Mr. Trump at its head. We commit ourselves to working energetically to prevent the election of someone so utterly unfitted to the office.
http://warontherocks.com/2016/03/open-letter-on-donald-trump-from-gop-national-security-leaders/
FWIW I'm seeing similar things in the Bay Area. Folks regardless of their political views are registering as Republicans for the California primary to try and stop Trump.
I suppose this benefits Mr. Cruz.
GratefulCitizen
04-02-2016, 13:04
FWIW I'm seeing similar things in the Bay Area. Folks regardless of their political views are registering as Republicans for the California primary to try and stop Trump.
I suppose this benefits Mr. Cruz.
Right and left working together in common cause.
Trump is such a unifier!
will deal our country into the next depression.
We never finished off the depression we have been in for the past 8 years.
Eliot Cohen
Sounds like Eliot Cohen is the pot calling teh kettle black, he wants illegal immigration to continue and would like to continue pussy footing with the Religion of Peace. Weren't Water Boarding and enhanced interrogation methods during the GWB administration? John McCain was photographed hanging with ISIS. Did the US Carpet Bomb Desden in WWII???
I would be curious to know what is at risk financially for Eliot Cohen and his cronies with a President Trump calling the shots? Could it be something like the Body Scanner scam pulled off by Michael Chertoff?
tom kelly
04-03-2016, 14:39
SO HOW IS HOPE AND CHANGE WORKING FOR EVERYBODY: ??????
PLEASE GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES.
REGARD'S,
TOM KELLY
Badger52
04-03-2016, 16:40
SO HOW IS HOPE AND CHANGE WORKING FOR EVERYBODY: ??????
That's a great question. I had an opinion about what kind of president the current Emperor-Wannabe might turn out as. But figured I'd give him some time, 'cause he said:
"You want to know what kind of president I'll be? Just watch the kind of people I surround myself with." So we got:
Fast & Furious; the IRS; stupidly-run & expensive socialized medicine; EPA-stapo; Benghazi; the VA; BLM land grabs; Solyndra; OPM; SECSTATE email-gate; a shitty nuke deal with an arch-enemy; the VA (the other one, the data leak) and, oh boy!, there's still 9 months to go. But, hey, he sure fired back when his Sony Hollywood buddies were attacked.
All in all, I can say that he truly lived down to my expectations.
:rolleyes:
Sounds like Eliot Cohen is the pot calling teh kettle black...
Doesn't read that way to me - more of a mea culpa in that 'we' (they) understand how the Republican Party came to creating a Trump and, in spite of their many disagreements over policy, agree on one thing - a Trump administration is not 'the answer' to either the 'Party's' or the nation's ails.
Richard
Doesn't read that way to me - more of a mea culpa in that 'we' (they) understand how the Republican Party came to creating a Trump and, in spite of their many disagreements over policy, agree on one thing - a Trump administration is not 'the answer' to either the 'Party's' or the nation's ails.
Richard
I am betting they are only worried about what happens to their investment profolio.
We will agree to disagree.
I am betting they are only worried about what happens to their investment profolio.
We will agree to disagree.
Not to sink to the gutter in terms of your favorite candidate............
But you seem to be delusional. We can agree to disagree, as I did support him in a modest fashion.
Until.............He destroyed Dr. Ben Carson when his poll numbers were rising last year. Equating him as a pathological person, similar to a child molester, all whilst mocking the mans religious beliefs.
That did it for me, and then to see the man come full circle and endorse him made me realize that the man wants nothing more than to have it both ways.
But hey.........I guess it was "lyin teds fault" that Ben got destroyed in Iowa.
Surf n Turf
04-04-2016, 05:23
Doesn't read that way to me - more of a mea culpa in that 'we' (they) understand how the Republican Party came to creating a Trump and, in spite of their many disagreements over policy, agree on one thing - a Trump administration is not 'the answer' to either the 'Party's' or the nation's ails.
Richard
Richard,
The Group that published the anti-Trump letter are, for the most part, the Neo-Conservatives that led the Bush Administration from Afghanistan to Iraq. As a group they have yet to encounter a crisis (real or imagined) where war is not the answer, and sending your kid to fight for freedom is not the result.
The Trump letter is not the first from this group, but is probably the strongest in protest to protect their interests, and keep their collective rice bowls full. When they say they are not always in agreement, their mean the amount of their speaking fees.
These second tier wanna bees include the best of the Harvard brigade, who were members of the The Project for the New American Century,( later called The Foreign Policy Initiative.) Their new venture is the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, who are currently doing their best to start WWIII in Syria (open letter to Obama from 60 some of these "happy warriors")
SnT
http://www.defenddemocracy.org/media-hit/policy-experts-urge-president-obama-to-take-immediate-action-to-establish-s/
that open letter means less than dick to me...
...like the way repuiblicans took it to obama when he claimed he was going to invade into pakistan - republicans didnt mind that degree of adventurism
...nor did they mind all of that red line we cant cross bullshit
...nor did they mind drone strikes in other countries
Those shit sticks have had seven years to put an argument together and they wait until their political control comfort zone is intruded upon.
The USA in general and the entire republican party specifically deserve another Clinton presidency.
Its WE the mother fucking people not ME the mother fucking people. A wise man once said that, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
There are too many ME the peoples in this country that are too worried about what the government can do for them. MY minimum wage, MY free health care, MY tuition... and yes, MY gun rights, MY taxes, MY religious freedoms.
WE the people have become a bunch of spoiled brats. Conservatives and Liberals alike. aMErica has become a functioning alcoholic that needs to hit rick bottom before they see how fucking pathetic we have become. Even the military has reached tha point.
Think not?
...how many of you have ever been told if you DONT give a guy a PCS or deployment award that you have to submit a memorandum explaining why?
...everyone gets a trophy. Even the military.
President Obama and Harry Reid both hit the nail on the head when they said it was republican leadership that has created Donald Trump and now the republicans are sad. Well, to to paraphrase Tiny Tim...
...fuck the republicans, everyone
I am pretty certain that if the republicans nominate any one but Cruz or Trump at this point I will be voting for a third party candidate.
...or I may just stay home and watch South Park.
that open letter means less than dick to me...
...like the way repuiblicans took it to obama when he claimed he was going to invade into pakistan - republicans didnt mind that degree of adventurism
...nor did they mind all of that red line we cant cross bullshit
...nor did they mind drone strikes in other countries
Those shit sticks have had seven years to put an argument together and they wait until their political control comfort zone is intruded upon.
The USA in general and the entire republican party specifically deserve another Clinton presidency.
Its WE the mother fucking people not ME the mother fucking people. A wise man once said that, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
There are too many ME the peoples in this country that are too worried about what the government can do for them. MY minimum wage, MY free health care, MY tuition... and yes, MY gun rights, MY taxes, MY religious freedoms.
WE the people have become a bunch of spoiled brats. Conservatives and Liberals alike. aMErica has become a functioning alcoholic that needs to hit rick bottom before they see how fucking pathetic we have become. Even the military has reached tha point.
Think not?
...how many of you have ever been told if you DONT give a guy a PCS or deployment award that you have to submit a memorandum explaining why?
...everyone gets a trophy. Even the military.
President Obama and Harry Reid both hit the nail on the head when they said it was republican leadership that has created Donald Trump and now the republicans are sad. Well, to to paraphrase Tiny Tim...
...fuck the republicans, everyone
I am pretty certain that if the republicans nominate any one but Cruz or Trump at this point I will be voting for a third party candidate.
...or I may just stay home and watch South Park.
My sentiments exactly!
The Group that published the anti-Trump letter are, for the most part, the Neo-Conservatives that led the Bush Administration from Afghanistan to Iraq. As a group they have yet to encounter a crisis (real or imagined) where war is not the answer, and sending your kid to fight for freedom is not the result.
It appears many of the people on the list are alleged dual citizens as well as neocons.
Team Sergeant
04-04-2016, 11:20
Doesn't read that way to me - more of a mea culpa in that 'we' (they) understand how the Republican Party came to creating a Trump and, in spite of their many disagreements over policy, agree on one thing - a Trump administration is not 'the answer' to either the 'Party's' or the nation's ails.
Richard
But an incompetent, liar, Yale racist is? Spare me, I cant wait to see Mr. Trump rip the guts out of the current administrations policies, especially on illegal border crossers.
There's a reason folks like me are pissed, we'd just like the laws of America enforced, you know the ones that make crossing our border a crime.
I too believe in immigration, legal immigration.
I'll be voting for Mr. Trump if only for that very reason. And I really hope he eviscerates the current corrupt political "system".
DT is a better option than Clinton
DT is a better option than sanders
He could be the worst POTUS ever, but still a better option than the Punch and Judy democrats
DT is absolutely the answer to the republican party and its ills.
There is nothing better than DT for the republican party.
The RNC should be soaked in Clorox until they have been completely disinfected.
Roguish Lawyer
04-04-2016, 13:41
DT is a better option than Clinton
DT is a better option than sanders
He could be the worst POTUS ever, but still a better option than the Punch and Judy democrats
DT is absolutely the answer to the republican party and its ills.
There is nothing better than DT for the republican party.
The RNC should be soaked in Clorox until they have been completely disinfected.
If Trump is nominated, he will lose the general election and cause Republicans down the ballot to lose also, probably costing Republicans the Senate and possibly the House too. The country will then continue its collapse into socialist bullshit and our only remedy will be a civil war. What a genius idea. :rolleyes:
The art of the deal...?
A Trump/Cruz ticket...form an alliance and burn the DC establishment down on both sides of the aisle.
Indict, try and convict Hillary...or offer her a settllement...her choice...expelled to Libya or Guantanamo...plenty of room.
If Trump is nominated, he will lose the general election and cause Republicans down the ballot to lose also, probably costing Republicans the Senate and possibly the House too. The country will then continue its collapse into socialist bullshit and our only remedy will be a civil war. What a genius idea. :rolleyes:
Only because Cruz supporters stomp off in a huff.
Only because Cruz supporters stomp off in a huff.
Translation: "Waaa!"
Peregrino
04-04-2016, 14:55
Only because Cruz supporters stomp off in a huff.
Exactly. DT may not be the best choice ever, but he is infinitely better than what the Dims are offering. If you want your scenario to come true - stay home, ignore the people's righteous anger at the current establishment and let the Dims win. You've no one to blame but yourself when the chickens come home to roost. The GOPe gave us eight years of Obama by fronting McCain and Romney (two Dim-light losers) and disenfranchising Conservatives (who did exactly what you're suggesting - stayed home and didn't vote). Now they're ready to continue their losing streak by once again rejecting the will of the electorate. If you're ready to repeat the same mistake by taking your toys (votes) and sitting out the current cycle - you deserve the consequences. Personally, I've been pragmatically "holding my nose" and voting the lesser of the available evils for most of my adult life. It hasn't appreciably slowed the Country's decline and I'm sick and tired of it. Maybe burning down the house isn't such a bad thing.
If Trump is nominated, he will lose the general election and cause Republicans down the ballot to lose also, probably costing Republicans the Senate and possibly the House too. The country will then continue its collapse into socialist bullshit and our only remedy will be a civil war. What a genius idea. :rolleyes:
But RL losing the existing Senate and the House as it stands is no big deal, this is the same Senate and House that has done nothing to resist Obama and everything to grease the skids for Obama.
Roguish Lawyer
04-04-2016, 15:31
I don't know why I bother. Trump is snowing you all. He's not going to burn down anything. As you were, I'm wasting my time here.
I don't know why I bother. Trump is snowing you all. He's not going to burn down anything. As you were, I'm wasting my time here.
Well, he's done a darn good job of POing the people I've been POed at the last 8 years.
Right now that's good enough for me.
I don't know why I bother. Trump is snowing you all. He's not going to burn down anything. As you were, I'm wasting my time here.
As long as Trump or Ted Swaggert get the nod I will cast my vote. Kaisch, Ryan or any or the other suckasses get the nod and I am staying home.
I must ask you RL, name me one candidate in this election that isn't snowing the people to some degree????
Surf n Turf
04-04-2016, 16:24
If Trump is nominated, he will lose the general election and cause Republicans down the ballot to lose also, probably costing Republicans the Senate and possibly the House too. The country will then continue its collapse into socialist bullshit and our only remedy will be a civil war. What a genius idea. :rolleyes:
RL,
Here's an outrageous idea........ how about the down ticket Republicans, the Senate, and the House stop their constant anti-Trump scathing commentary, and, for once, follow the voting public to the election....even if it means a Trump nomination.
Trump's harshest, meanest critics are the establishment Republicans, and I have no crystal ball that tells me that Trump will lose the General election if he is nominated. Trump or Cruz... I can live with either one.
The country has continued its collapse into socialist bullshit under Bush the Elder, George Bush the Junior, Presidents Bob Dole, , John McCain, and Mitt Romney. Do you really think that a nomination of John Kasich or JEB would move the Republican electorate into a voting booth ?..... I don't :rolleyes:
SnT
Added the following link from NYT----- Ted Cruz Insists Only He, or Donald Trump, Should Be Nominee
http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2016/04/04/ted-cruz-insists-only-he-or-trump-should-be-nominee/?_r=1
Link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTbkbH3x7LQ&feature=youtu.be)
I don't know why I bother. Trump is snowing you all. He's not going to burn down anything. As you were, I'm wasting my time here.
Translation: Waah, You have weighed in with your 2 cents regarding your choice and why. Your opinion is respected as I hope everyone's is but you really do need to quit wasting your time on this subject. Trump is not my first choice but I get why so many find him to be a suitable alternative to mainstream politicians.
Team Sergeant
04-04-2016, 17:32
If Trump is nominated, he will lose the general election and cause Republicans down the ballot to lose also, probably costing Republicans the Senate and possibly the House too. The country will then continue its collapse into socialist bullshit and our only remedy will be a civil war. What a genius idea. :rolleyes:
This is going to happen anyway, why put it off? :munchin
ddoering
04-04-2016, 19:15
I agree.
Historically tyrants have spawned from both the extreme left ( a la Stalin) or the extreme right ( a la Hitler). Obama has gutted our Republic with his Marxist indifference to everything that constitutes the American Dream.
So I understand the anger, I share it, but to me voting for someone who angers those who anger me and hoping it works out, is the same logic as assuming the enemy of your enemy is your friend. I don't think it's often that simple or works that way, things can turn out much worse.
Trump is even more divisive than Obama, my $.02 everyone with a pulse should know Hillary is a crook, I mean has there ever been a presidential front runner facing FBI indictment for violating national security?
Yet I think when given the dilemma of voting for a known crook or a potential facist, the crook will win the election every time, because as disgusting as the Hildabeast is, you know what to expect.
but to me voting for someone who angers those who anger me and hoping it works out, is the same logic as assuming the enemy of your enemy is your friend. I don't think it's often that simple or works that way, things can turn out much worse.
That is exactly what the Bill Kristol, Karl Rove, the Media and the GOPe are doing. And it is difficult for me to believe that their perferred candidate is better than Trump.
or the extreme right ( a la Hitler)
Come again?
craigepo
04-04-2016, 20:17
I understand the Trump voters' anger. I feel it too. What I am failing to comprehend is the substitution of emotion for rational thought. I have yet to hear a single viable plan come from Trump. He has not thought through even basic political issues, and is horribly inarticulate.
Worst of all, he is a guaranteed loser. Every poll shows him losing to Clinton, his unfavorable ratings are pathetic, and he is sinking lower everyday. The only demographic that he wins is white males, and he is losing that support quickly. If you don't believe me, go check out the polls at Real Clear Politics or whatever similar page of your choosing.
I have long said that everytime the Democrats screw up, the Republicans come along to help them. Clinton was one of the most loathed candidates in history. Trump is hated even more.
If you want to know if Trump is going to win this election, ask yourself this question: How many kids next year will be named "Donald Trump Jones"? Do any of you want your sons to grow up to be like him?
For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many angry people want to charge this machine gun bunker armed with a teddy bear. I promise you, the DNC has already filmed and vetted the entire line of anti-Trump commercials. All of his old statements about women, abortion, etc are coming out, and the voters are going to see them ad nauseum.
The Republican base is, generally, business people, church people, and soldiers. Does anyone think that the little old lady that vacuums the Baptist Church every Sunday is going to like Trump? Are astute businessmen, who deal logically everyday, going to throw logic to the wind to donate to and support a guy like Trump who is alienating people at a prodigous rate?
Winning elections is about addition, not subtraction. The GOP has to win more votes than Romney did to have a prayer. Honestly, the math for Trump just isn't there.
I will vote for Trump if he is the nominee. But, if he is, we may as well go ahead and start working for the 2020 election, because Trump will lose in a blowout of historic proportions.
Are astute businessmen, who deal logically everyday, going to throw logic to the wind to donate to and support a guy like Trump who is alienating people at a prodigous rate?
No, they already threw millions away on Jeb and Rubio who are willing to alienate tax paying citizens through their advocacy of illegal immigration, amnesty and lame trade agreements.
PolitiFact's 'Truth-O-Meter' scorecard as of 1 Apr 2016 on fact-checked candidate statements:
Donald Trump
true of mostly true - 8%
half true - 15%
false or mostly false - 57%
'pants on fire' lie - 19%
Ted Cruz
true of mostly true - 22%
half true - 13%
false or mostly false - 58%
'pants on fire' lie - 7%
John Kasich
true of mostly true - 51%
half true - 16%
false or mostly false - 28%
'pants on fire' lie - 5%
Hillary Clinton
true of mostly true - 52%
half true - 20%
false or mostly false - 27%
'pants on fire' lie - 1%
Bernie Sanders
true of mostly true - 50%
half true - 19%
false or mostly false - 30%
'pants on fire' lie - 0%
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/
As somebody in these forums once said a couple of general election cycles back, "The Democrats can't lose - the Republicans won't let them."
A scary and sad thought - but so it goes...
Richard
Hm...
So there you have it folks. Hillary Clinton is the most trustworthy candidate on the campaign trail
...mark your ballots PolitiFact said so.
PolitiFact is to politics what Wikipedia is to Master Degrees
Surf n Turf
04-04-2016, 22:15
Historically tyrants have spawned from both the extreme left ( a la Stalin) or the extreme right ( a la Hitler).
akv,
For clarification, Adolph Hitler's party was the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP). In English that is the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Now party labels are not always precise, but Socialists come from the LEFT, just like Communists.
SnT
Horrible
04-04-2016, 23:38
akv,
For clarification, Adolph Hitler's party was the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP). In English that is the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Now party labels are not always precise, but Socialists come from the LEFT, just like Communists.
SnT
The name is meaningless. The Nazis were socialist in the same way that the DPRK is democratic.
Hm...
PolitiFact is to politics what Wikipedia is to Master Degrees
Worse.....and clearly left leaning. Hillary and Bernie tell the truth more than any of the Republicans? Riigghhttt.
I'm with Craigpo. I would vote for DT only if he is the nominee. But I have no illusions that DT is going to do what he says he will do. There won't be a wall and Mexico definitely won't pay for it. He won't halt muslim immigration. His deals won't be better than anyone else's. He's just a better alternative to HC or BS.
Ted Cruz talks like a preacher and is a bible thumper but actions speak louder than words and he mostly has tried to do what he said he'll do.
Hm...
So there you have it folks. Hillary Clinton is the most trustworthy candidate on the campaign trail
...mark your ballots PolitiFact said so.
They make no such claims and all their fact checked statements of the candidates over the last year shows is that during this campaign her statements inre to policy and such have been more accurate.
I assume she has better advisers who have advised her to stay away from Twitter. :rolleyes:
But trustworthy - hardly.
Richard
That 1% pants on fire lie must have been when Hillary said we didn't lose a single person in Libya...
...or when she claimed ALL of her grandparents were immigrants
It looks to me like those graphs explicitly advertise Hillary as having the highest level of truthiness among the candidates. if that isn't what they were trying to say, then why post so many graphs?
I'm sticking with my PolitiFact = Wikipedia viewpoint for now.
Besides, I'm blindly in the tank for Hillary simply because that's what smart people on the left are saying I should do. If politifact says her truthiness is at 52% then who am I to argue.
Shocking!:rolleyes:
Study: Media Fact-Checker Says Republicans Lie More
A leading media fact-checking organization rates Republicans as less trustworthy than Democrats, according to a new study by the Center for Media and Public Affairs (CMPA) at George Mason University. The study finds that PolitiFact.com has rated Republican claims as false three times as often as Democratic claims during President Obama’s second term. Republicans continue to get worse marks in recent weeks, despite controversies over Obama administration statements on Benghazi, the IRS and the AP.
According to CMPA President Dr Robert Lichter, “While Republicans see a credibility gap in the Obama administration, PolitiFact rates Republicans as the less credible party.”
Link (http://cmpa.gmu.edu/study-media-fact-checker-says-republicans-lie-more/)
Who’s Checking the Fact Checkers?
...The fact that, as the Lichter study shows, "A majority of Democratic statements (54 percent) were rated as mostly or entirely true, compared to only 18 percent of Republican statements," probably has more to do with how the statements were picked and the subjective bias of the fact checker involved than anything remotely empirical. Likewise, the fact that "a majority of Republican statements (52 percent) were rated as mostly or entirely false, compared to only 24 percent of Democratic statements" probably has more to do with spinning stories than it does with evaluating statements.
There is a "truth gap" in Washington, but it doesn't exist along the lines the fact checkers would have you think. It was Obama who said you could keep the health care you had if you liked it, even if Obamacare became law. It was Obama who said the Citizens United decision would open the floodgates of foreign money into U.S. campaigns. It was Obama who said Benghazi happened because of a YouTube video. It was Obama's IRS that denied conservative political groups had been singled out for special scrutiny. And it was Obama who promised that taxes would not go up for any American making less than $250,000 per year.
All of these statements and plenty more are demonstrably false, though some people still pretend there is truth in them. As the Lichter study demonstrates, it's not so much fact checkers that are needed as it is fact checkers to check the facts being checked.
Link (http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2013/05/28/study-finds-fact-checkers-biased-against-republicans)
Now party labels are not always precise
Agreed the contents of the box don't often match the label in politics. The basic tenets of generic facism are, a nationalistic system which is anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism, though in particular to the NAZI regime an emphasis on social conservatism and opposition to egalitarianism, was emphasized. The Nazis didn't do away with religion or private business ownership as long as it served their needs.
We look back on Hitler as this evil genius, yet there was a time when he was widely thought of as a charismatic clown with bad hair, and the butt of comedians like Charlie Chaplain. Few believed he would actually win the election, or if he did, actually do the things he said he was going to do. Their economy was devastated, he divided them further on ethnic and demographic differences found scapegoats everywhere, and told people what they wanted to hear, He told them he was going to make them great again. Sound familiar?
I echo what RL and Craigo are saying, Trump is at best a con artist , and could be something much worse. If conservatives are angry now how does eight years of Hillary strike you? Cruz may or may not beat her, if Trump is the nominee, the next first Lady Bill Clinton can start interviewing perky interns and shopping for White House china...
I'm not sure how how voting Trump if you are upset with the Republican party is any better than cutting off your nose to spite your face. We've just lived two terms of the folly of the "Audacity of Hope" in US political circles.
Team Sergeant
04-05-2016, 10:55
They make no such claims and all their fact checked statements of the candidates over the last year shows is that during this campaign her statements inre to policy and such have been more accurate.
I assume she has better advisers who have advised her to stay away from Twitter. :rolleyes:
But trustworthy - hardly.
Richard
And this is how the Stockholm Syndrome takes effect on a person, and they actually start believing the enemy crap.......
Richard you are in dire need of an intervention. What the democrats/progressives/socialists preach is not Freedom but Oppression. You of all people should know this to be true.
Team Sergeant
04-05-2016, 10:59
Agreed the contents of the box don't often match the label in politics. The basic tenets of generic facism are, a nationalistic system which is anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism, though in particular to the NAZI regime an emphasis on social conservatism and opposition to egalitarianism, was emphasized. The Nazis didn't do away with religion or private business ownership as long as it served their needs.
We look back on Hitler as this evil genius, yet there was a time when he was widely thought of as a charismatic clown with bad hair, and the butt of comedians like Charlie Chaplain. Few believed he would actually win the election, or if he did, actually do the things he said he was going to do. Their economy was devastated, he divided them further on ethnic and demographic differences found scapegoats everywhere, and told people what they wanted to hear, He told them he was going to make them great again. Sound familiar?
I echo what RL and Craigo are saying, Trump is at best a con artist , and could be something much worse. If conservatives are angry now how does eight years of Hillary strike you? Cruz may or may not beat her, if Trump is the nominee, the next first Lady Bill Clinton can start interviewing perky interns and shopping for White House china...
I'm not sure how how voting Trump if you are upset with the Republican party is any better than cutting off your nose to spite your face. We've just lived two terms of the folly of the "Audacity of Hope" in US political circles.
You are entitled to your opinion, while this still is a "free" country.
I'll take Mr. Trump over any and all democrats/socialist. What I will no longer abide is a Senate and House that has done absolutely nothing to keep the moron in office in check. Nothing. Cruz the Canadian was part of that spineless GOP. I hope Trump rips the core out of the GOP and it becomes like the Dodo. The GOP died long ago and stands for nothing.
GratefulCitizen
04-05-2016, 11:27
Parallels in behavior:
Establishment republicans -> Ahab
Establishment democrats -> Jezebel
Trump -> Jehu
Jehu was ruthless, ambitious, cruel, destructive, and accomplished nothing of note during his reign.
But, he did destroy the house of Ahab and Jezebel during his ascension.
If Trump can do the same with the entrenched political powers, it may be worth the price.
Agreed the contents of the box don't often match the label in politics. The basic tenets of generic facism
Except in Hitler's case, the contents of the box do match the label; a National Socialist. You have labeled him incorrectly.
Dr. Neumann, a refugee professor from Heidelberg, gave a description of National Socialist ideology, in it's primary instruction, by Nazi Professors at Heidelberg:
"And there has arisen...blood against formal reason; race against purposeful rationality; honour against profit; unity against individualistic disintegration; martial virtue against bourgeois security; the folk against the individual and the mass. The so-called non-rational concepts, blood, community, folk, are devices for hiding the real constellation of power and for manipulating the masses. The charisma of the Leader, the superiority of the master race, the struggle of a proletarian race against the State are consciously applied stratagems."
The Nazis didn't do away with religion or private business ownership as long as it served their needs.
To this point, I'll quote Hitler directly (speech to the Reichstatthalter, 4 or 5 July 1933):
"We must therefore not dismiss a business-man if he is a good businessman, even if he is not yet a National Socialist; especially not if the National Socialist who is to take his place knows nothing about business."
Hitler used Franz Von Papen, German Vice Chancellor, and a leader in the Catholic Centre Party, in the same manner. He was arrested and imprisoned.
"Consciously applied stratagems" being the key take away for this point.
That was Hitler, those were the Nazi's, and it is not a historical example of "extreme right wing".
For the future, if you are looking for an example of right wing, or even, "extreme right wing" in a German figure, I would suggest looking to Von Papen. He believed Hitler's many false pronouncements, and aided Hitler to power.
When Von Papen had realized his error in supporting Hitler, he gave a last ditch warning to his countrymen known as 'The Marburg Speech' (June 17, University of Marburg). The 'Night of the Long Knives' followed soon after and most of Germany's prominent Catholic leaders were executed.
He told them he was going to make them great again. Sound familiar?
No similarity whatsoever. For that, look to the faces on Mt. Rushmore. Alexander Hamilton would be a fair economic comparison.
Law and order, defined sovereignty, a strong military, economic protectionism, submitting U.S. commitments to a cost-benefit analysis and immigration policy based on cold-national interest do not equate to Nazism.
Surf n Turf
04-05-2016, 14:40
I echo what RL and Craigo are saying, Trump is at best a con artist , and could be something much worse. If conservatives are angry now how does eight years of Hillary strike you? Cruz may or may not beat her, if Trump is the nominee, the next first Lady Bill Clinton can start interviewing perky interns and shopping for White House china...
I'm not sure how how voting Trump if you are upset with the Republican party is any better than cutting off your nose to spite your face. We've just lived two terms of the folly of the "Audacity of Hope" in US political circles.
akv,
Having lived, worked, and had 2 of my children born in Europe, I am somewhat familiar with the Area, Language, literature, demographics, and history of Germany and the 1,000 year Reich. I think that "PATRIN" post #92 explained the "Right wing myth" of AH to my satisfaction.... Much better that I could.
Trump might be a "con artist", but, in business at least, he is a successful. Success in business means a lot, because he has had to put up with the "socialist bullshit" that the previous administrations ... both Democrat and Republican.... shoveled upon this country. I would think that the sheer joy of dismantling that whorehouse would keep him busy for a while. Additionally, if I remember my civics correctly (except for Democrat pResidents) he will need the acquiescence of both houses of congress.
Do you really think that Hillary, pending criminal Indictment, is not a candidate who can be beaten in a general election,..... or have you so lost faith in the American public that you no longer trust their judgment.
SnT
Entire Post
Scholars differ on how to label the Nazi brand of Facism, everything I read Hitler was inspired significantly by Mussolini. However whether a Hitler or a Ceasar, or Napolean, despite being a conservative, it seems simplistic to me assume all tyranny stems from the left. Hitler slams Marxism pretty hard in Mein Kampf
Back to Trump,
The common assumption of Trump's business success is mystifying to me if he in fact inherited anything close to $100 million in the early 1970's. A monkey could have put that kind of money into an S&P fund back then and been worth a lot more than Trump's highest claims today. To be fair he has been in the business world and I'm sure he experience and knows things, he has also endured any number of failures and bankruptcies. To me the guy was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple. While I don't care for his politics, as far as business success, Bloomberg and many others dwarf Trump's business success.
Your last question is a good tough one. I'd like to think I haven't lost faith in the American people though the majority elected Obama twice now.
I think Hillary is a HORRIBLE candidate, despite having the advantages of being an ivy league educated former first lady, with congressional and Secretary of State experience, she still comes across as crooked, entitled, fake. and just plain bitchy. It's telling that Bernie Sanders an openly nutty socialist is giving her a race. I think Hillary can be beaten, absolutely be beaten in a general election, but not by Trump.
Trump taps into anger well, but is just too alienating and divisive. It's hard enough for a conservative to win the white house these days, but it seems Trump alienates every demographic but conservative white males who are angry. I don't think he has the math to win the general because of this.
I will say this though, both Trump and Sanders have tapped into this anger and are running insurgencies while all the other candidates are running traditional campaigns. He clearly caught the Republicans by surprise in the primaries. Kudos to his political acumen, but yes I don't think he has the math to beat the Hildabeast in the general election.
Law and order, defined sovereignty, a strong military, economic protectionism, submitting U.S. commitments to a cost-benefit analysis and immigration policy based on cold-national interest do not equate to Nazism.
If this is what I believed Trump stood for he'd have my vote. The only things I know about Trump is he was a Democrat most of his life, he inherited a fortune and has the thinnest skin of any politician in recent history. How can you form the conclusion that he stands for such things given his absolute lack of substantive detail on any topic, and hiis constant wavering?
Other than building a wall which apparently the Mexicans will pay for, and assuring us we will be great again where is the beef? Can you share how he has demonstrated or articulated exactly how he will accomplish any of the above?
Was watching CNN and MSNBC about a hour ago and all talking heads were almost giddy with delight that Cruz was going to give Trump a smack down in WI. One said turnout was close to 60% so Trump was really going down.
Returns should be coming in soon.
If Trump gets more than 7 delegates he beat what they said he would.
Fox has called WI for Cruz & Sanders
it seems simplistic to me assume all tyranny stems from the left.
It doesn't. For a modern 'right wing' example, look to the Ayatollahs in Iran or the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia. For that matter, look to any country that is ruled by Sharia Law. If you're looking for a right wing WASP example, it's not in existence, and from the Protestant perspective, never truly has been. Point of fact, Jews and Christians have birthed the most free and prosperous civilizations to exist, in contrast to atheist ideologies and Islam, which have wrought the collective heft of misery and destruction upon the human race.
How can you form the conclusion that he stands for such things given his absolute lack of substantive detail on any topic, and hiis constant wavering?
Other than building a wall which apparently the Mexicans will pay for, and assuring us we will be great again where is the beef? Can you share how he has demonstrated or articulated exactly how he will accomplish any of the above?
Very easily. I've listened to Trump in the debates, in interviews, read the policies on his website and had the time to attend a rally here in Orlando, FL. He's covered every topic I put to type.
I think it's on you to catch up.
...and his net worth, after leaving Wharton, was $200,000.
I have to say akv, much of what you've written about Trump is rather thin; coming form biased media sources or opposition campaign rhetoric.
Listen to his words...maybe read his first book...get a read on him.
I'll add...I've donated money to Ted Cruz's campaign...Trump received my primary vote, and for one reason, no half measures.
FWIW, Ian Kershaw provided an overview of the debates over the nature of Nazism among historians as a Trevelyan Lecture in 2002. The lecture was subsequently published as "Hitler and the Uniqueness of Nazism," Journal of Contemporary History, 39:2 (April 2004): 239-254, available at http://www.jstor.org/stable/3180723, and attached to this post.
That entire issue centers around understanding Nazi Germany and is available at http://www.jstor.org/stable/i359293
MOO, comparisons of contemporary American politicians and political figures to Nazis is historiographically unsustainable. Why go across the Atlantic when Trump's antecedents can be found in American nativism?
Surf n Turf
04-05-2016, 19:47
comparisons of contemporary American politicians and political figures to Nazis is historiographically unsustainable. Why go across the Atlantic when Trump's antecedents can be found in American nativism?
Sigaba,
At the risk of a "historiographically" correct diatribe, would you expound on the above.
SnT
Badger52
04-05-2016, 20:49
Fox has called WI for Cruz & SandersDemographics, sir. (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/wisconsin-election-results-presidential-primaries-and-state-supreme-court/html_3c472f63-7ed6-5685-9aef-508f4caa2afb.html) The prediction may end up valid, but the talking heads know nothing; they're doing exit polling in Milwaukee or Brown counties. Trump will pull some votes out of this though.
Trump did not do himself any favors with his denigrating remarks about Scott Walker, a man who got elected, got re-elected during the recall with a higher margin than the first time, then got re-elected again. (This contrast nationally that the state went for the current POTUS twice is the abomination of the winner-take-all electoral system.)
Anecdote-INT:
- talked to a couple of 'fairly' traditional Democrats who could vote Dem 50/50 at times and they went for Trump. One put it succinctly: "Hillary or that commie guy? Are you kidding?"
- an actual campaign worker stopped by last night. Thick-yarn stocking cap, checkered shirt, suspenders, late 50's, bushy graying beard, jeans tucked in his boots with a big campaign button on the hat & a stupid looking "I just smoked a joint" grin on his face. You can guess what was on the button.
Trumps said Cruz was an estabishment Trojan Horse......
He's disparaged his own Republican leader as a liar and dismissed fellow senators as part of the "Washington cartel." But now, with his presidential prospects hanging in the balance, Ted Cruz is moving closer than ever to the D.C. establishment.
Directly and through surrogates, the Texas senator is aggressively reaching out to his Senate colleagues as he prepares for the possibility of a convention floor fight against Donald Trump. And Cruz’s emissaries on Capitol Hill are now signaling to senior Republicans that Cruz would be willing to work with them as the GOP nominee in a way Trump would not.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/cruz-senate-outreach-221587
:munchin
Well at least some folks are getting some insight into how their state's selection process works and how delegates are bound to vote - or not.
Looks like a bunch of PA voters are going to be a bit surprised.
Point of fact, Jews and Christians have birthed the most free and prosperous civilizations to exist, in contrast to atheist ideologies and Islam, which have wrought the collective heft of misery and destruction upon the human race.
We will have to agree to disagree on all points. While I clearly credit the Judeo Christian impact for good in general especially the influence on the the US constitution etc. There isn't a faith or creed immune from barbarous heft of misery and destruction, consider the inquisition, global colonization, and slavery in America among other examples of less than Christian behavior...
We aren't going to change each others minds on politics or religion. For the sake of the country IF Mr. Trump is elected, I hope he is these things you believe him to be...
Badger52
04-06-2016, 14:10
Well at least some folks are getting some insight into how their state's selection process works and how delegates are bound to vote - or not.Everytime someone's non-favorite carries a winner-take-all state (most) in the General it should require a rude-as-possible PSA from the Electoral College hoisting their middle finger and saying, "y'all dun bin nullified. Now gimme your marbles."
:rolleyes:
craigepo
04-06-2016, 17:40
It looks like the backroom delegate courting is going full bore, and that Cruz has been working this angle for a long time. Like him or not, he has assembled a very good team. (As an aside, Romney lost the last election, in part, because Obama's team beat him at every game).
This article is written by George Will, who hates Trump, and who is beginning to get on my nerves. But he is well researched and makes some good points.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433726/ted-cruz-donald-trump-contested-convention-favors-cruz?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Wednesday%20Trending%20Email%20Reoccu rring%202016-04-06&utm_term=NR5PM
It looks like the backroom delegate courting is going full bore, and that Cruz has been working this angle for a long time. Like him or not, he has assembled a very good team. (As an aside, Romney lost the last election, in part, because Obama's team beat him at every game).
This article is written by George Will, who hates Trump, and who is beginning to get on my nerves. But he is well researched and makes some good points.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/433726/ted-cruz-donald-trump-contested-convention-favors-cruz?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Wednesday%20Trending%20Email%20Reoccu rring%202016-04-06&utm_term=NR5PM
Yep. Ted isn't "stealing" delegates from Trump.
He is losing them because people are starting to realize that his substance is still an inch deep and a mile wide.
And that he is a moron who has worse public speaking skills that any President in the last 100 years.
people are starting to realize that his substance is still an inch deep and a mile wide.
You have described the typical American Politician.
So are delegates really realizing Trump is just like the others? Is Trump like Bernie Sander, HRC, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell?
And that he is a moron who has worse public speaking skills that any President in the last 100 years.
Obama is a masterful speaker, and look what you got.
MOO, comparisons of contemporary American politicians and political figures to Nazis is historiographically unsustainable. Why go across the Atlantic when Trump's antecedents can be found in American nativism?
I am interested to hear your thoughts on Portland Community College history professor James Harrison's claims that eliminating whiteness would end world conflict compare to Hitlers thoughts on Jews and Trumps calls to ban illegal immigration?
"Trump should tell his delegates to..." "Cruz should tell his delegates to..."
I'm getting a kick out of folks who somehow thing the Candidates "own" the delegates and can tell them how they have to vote at the convention.
Delegates are only bound in voting for the candidate as per their state rules during the nomination process. Lot of delegates are not happy with who they have to vote for in the first round.
Floor votes? It's everybody for themselves. Best figure I have is 40% of the convention delegates will be party regulators from the local and state level.
What are they voting on? The party hardliners are coming up with that.
We'll know which way this is all going when the rules come out for a vote. Rule 40 stays in - the party is going to back Cruz. Rule 40 is out - they ain't backing Cruz.
Going to be right interesting.
ddoering
04-07-2016, 07:18
I'm thinking of voting for Hillary. The sooner this rotten house of cards collapses the better imo. Then the cleansing can begin.
We will have to agree to disagree on all points. While I clearly credit the Judeo Christian impact for good in general especially the influence on the the US constitution etc. There isn't a faith or creed immune from barbarous heft of misery and destruction, consider the inquisition, global colonization, and slavery in America among other examples of less than Christian behavior.
On "faith and creed", let's set the terms...the Koran reads as a book of death and the New Testament reads as a book of Life. No equivalency.
For the body of my reply...
I'm certainly not looking to change your mind, nor even find agreement. I'm only participating here to correct the historical record of what you've put forth in this thread...liberal revisionism, which has, IMO, from reading your words, undermined any objective perspective to form an opinion on Donald Trump's candidacy.
Problem is, you're crediting Judeo-Christianity on one hand, but calling it to accord on the other.
Let's square that...and I ask brief pardon from the QP's participating in the thread to address these points.
Whether it's the aforementioned or Donald Trump, context is king.
"consider the inquisition"...have you? The inquisition came upon the close of nearly 800 years of Moorish Muslim dominance of Spain...and the tolerance that sort of domination brought with it. The Spanish Christians fought a bitter, bloody campaign to re-take their country. Is it difficult to step into one's mind eye to know the temperature of the Christian's blood at the conclusion of such a campaign? Certainly not an excuse of such behavior, particularly the unwarranted vengeance visited upon the Jewish population, but, as I wrote, context is everything.
The inquisition is not a black mark on Christianity...far from it. Are Christ's teachings responsible? Certainly not. Any fellow that has read, or performed a cursory study of the New Testament, knows that the inquisition was a bastardization of the word of Christ...and true fault lies at the foot of Islamic barbarism and mendacious Catholic officialdom misinterpreting the Bible's message to serve their own agenda upon the illiterate masses of the time......and the Geneva Bible had not yet been written or circulated to the common man.
"Global colonization"...on the cosmic card, was a positive to be unleashed upon the world. How so? It was the birth of Modern civilization. I'll throw out to you the bone that, indeed, the French, the Belgians and the Germans were brutal taskmasters on the local native populations, and such is lamentable. The British and Dutch far less so, though no picture of roses. Of course, any barbarism by colonial forces is not inline with the word of Christ.
However, modern medicine, sophisticated techniques of farming and irrigation, conduits to deal with waste and sewage, law and order in place of tribal savagery, the abolition of slavery on the African continent by British forces.
To just touch upon a short list of positives that most local populations benefited from as opposed too, largely, a food scarce and disease abundant existence. One need only to look at population growth of the locals once colonization took place to confirm.
Doubt any of this? Fine. That's a choice. I'd point you to the plethora of examples from the recession of the Empire post WWII. Resource rich. As colonization gave way to nationalist movements across Africa and Asia, the expected travelers soon arrived...genocide, the looting and destruction of civil life and internecine warfare.
Rhodesia is an excellent case study of this.
"slavery in America"...this will be shorter. Deplorable...but thanks to the foresight of our Founding Fathers, was a mistake soon remedied by a combined 500,000 white casualties to end it. So far as I'm concerned...and the casualty numbers support my opinion...the white race paid it's debt in blood for that mistake...and I'll remind you that the first American voices to sound the battle cry to end slavery were from the Christian community.
Back to the "inquisition", and I'll take it a step further...some bloodlust visited upon the Jews during the Crusades by Christians...for WWII...a largely WASP America sent their sons, Fathers and brothers to defeat the leftist atheist-Nazis, save millions of Jews from extinction and free a combined worldwide population, from the beaches of Normandy to the Philippines, of 600 million souls.
...that should cover any further citations of "less than Christian behavior" you may have going forward...as again, the cosmic scorecard has come full circle and Christians or whites / Europeans...as you allude to by your examples...are all paid up.
It is a historical fact that two collective groups of people from the Israelites, to the Anglo-Saxons and unto Americans...the three distinct titles holder of 'People's law'...have given more than they have ever received.
It is also why I carry no white or Christian guilt and, perhaps, you should assess your own if you are one or any of the other...white / European, Jewish or Christian.
You have described the typical American Politician.
So are delegates really realizing Trump is just like the others? Is Trump like Bernie Sander, HRC, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell?
Obama is a masterful speaker, and look what you got.
I am interested to hear your thoughts on Portland Community College history professor James Harrison's claims that eliminating whiteness would end world conflict compare to Hitlers thoughts on Jews and Trumps calls to ban illegal immigration?
As a surrogate.
Im sure you know that Abraham Lincoln was not the delegate leader going into the republican convention. His ground game is what put him ahead of the "Plurality" leader.
But im sure you trumpsters have an excuse for that as well.
Along with his wonderful, presidential statement after the loss in Wisconsin.
What a clown. But hey, you would never know that he lost in WI based on the Trump news networks in full swing thanks to the Progressive Populist Movement.
I'm thinking of voting for Hillary. The sooner this rotten house of cards collapses the better imo. Then the cleansing can begin.
Its a good thing the left doesn't have a maneuver element.
Im sure you know that Abraham Lincoln was not the delegate leader going into the republican convention. His ground game is what put him ahead of the "Plurality" leader.
Damn nice set up there, Mills! I was just about to post this:
Lincoln Outfoxed Seward for the Nomination
by Gordon Leidner
In May 1860, the nation’s attention turned toward Chicago, where the Republicans were meeting to select their presidential candidate.
William H. Seward, the Republican front-runner from New York, sent his political team to Chicago to lock up his party’s nomination. In the mid-nineteenth century, it was not considered proper for the aspiring candidate to go to the convention himself, so Seward sent his political manager, Thurlow Weed, along with his states’ 70 delegates and 13 railroad cars of supporters.
The residents of Chicago were delighted to have their city of 100,000 chosen for the Republican party’s second presidential convention. At the cost of about $6,000, Republicans there built a new convention center for the occasion. Nicknamed “The Wigwam,” it had excellent acoustics and could seat more than 10,000, which purportedly would be the largest audience yet assembled in the country under one roof.
The candidates
Seward and Weed--some would say the unscrupulous Weed--were confident. It would take 233 votes to win the nomination, and they had nearly a third of that in the New York delegation alone.
Who could possibly upset their plans? Not Pennsylvania’s candidate, Simon Cameron. Cameron was considered a crook by most of the country, and would have little support outside of the 54 delegates from Pennsylvania. Not Ohio’s Salmon P. Chase. Ohio’s 46 votes probably would be split between he and fellow Ohioans Sen. Ben Wade and Judge John McClean. Not Missouri’s Edwin Bates--although Bates had Missouri’s 18 delegates and the backing of the nation’s most powerful newspaper editor, Horace Greely of the New York Tribune.
Seward and Weed recognized that they were not on their own turf, and anticipated that Illinois’ “Favorite Son,” Abraham Lincoln, probably would receive all of the states’ 22 votes. Since Illinois was considered a doubtful state for candidate Seward should he be the Republican candidate (where he would have a tough time defeating the anticipated Democratic nominee--Illinois’ other favorite son, Stephen A. Douglas), Weed was prepared to acquire Illinois votes on the second ballot by offering Lincoln the vice-presidential spot. That should secure Seward’s nomination in the event of a tough floor fight, he and his supporters reckoned.
Lincoln's strategy
Lincoln had been busy preparing for the convention as well. Using all his political skill, he had persuaded the Illinois delegation to vote for him in a bloc. To lead the floor fight, he selected David Davis, a trusted friend, and Norman Judd, who was due most of the credit for bringing the Republican convention to Chicago. Finally, he provided them with some tactical guidance and limitations of engagement, which included an admonishment to “make no deals that bind me,” and waited in Springfield for the results.
Confident that Seward would not have enough votes to lock up the nomination on the first ballot, Lincoln intended to get the second highest vote count on the first ballot and line up additional votes for the second ballot in order to show increasing strength. He hoped that this strategy--combined with the presence of an enthusiastic band of followers on the floor--would be sufficient to win the nomination on the third or subsequent ballot.
Lincoln’s men left no detail unattended in their pursuit of this strategy. They made certain that Seward’s New Yorkers were seated far from other critical delegations with whom they might collaborate. They printed hundreds of counterfeit tickets and distributed them to Lincoln supporters with instructions to show up early--in order to displace Seward’s supporters.
They also assigned two men with noted stentorian voices to lead the cheering. One of these men reportedly had a larynx powerful enough to allow his shout to be heard across Lake Michigan.
Stop Seward
The first two days of the convention were devoted to acceptance of delegates, administration, and the platform. The evenings were spent in the caucusing of delegates. Weed’s approach was to offer champagne for the present and “oceans of money” for the future.
In contrast, Davis and Judd spent their time lining up votes from delegates of other states that didn’t want to see Seward win. Indiana committed 26 first ballot votes to Lincoln. Several of the New England states, including New Hampshire and Maine, provided Lincoln with many first ballot votes that Seward was planning on.
Even more important were the second ballot votes. Several states, including Vermont, were glad to find that the “stop Seward” forces were finally uniting behind one man and committed most of their subsequent votes to Lincoln.
Pennsylvania was harder to crack. Davis chose to ignore Lincoln’s direction about making pledges in his absence, and got a commitment from Pennsylvania to support Lincoln on the second ballot by offering a cabinet position to Simon Cameron.
Beyond description
Finally, the third day arrived. One thousand Seward men marched behind a smartly uniformed brass band. They wound their way noisily through Chicago’s streets, playing the song “Oh, Isn’t He a Darling?” and finally arrived triumphantly in front of the Wigwam. To their horror, they found that they could not get in: the Lincoln men, admitted with their counterfeit tickets, had taken their seats.
Still, Seward had his share of support. When his name was offered in nomination, tremendous applause went up from the audience--followed by louder applause for Lincoln. The crowd quickly recognized them as the front-runners when the other candidates received less enthusiastic commendation.
When Seward’s name was seconded, the demonstration was so vociferous that “hundreds of persons stopped their ears in pain.” But when Lincoln’s nomination was seconded, the uproar was “beyond description.”
Leonard Swett, a friend of Lincoln’s, said that “Five thousand people leaped to their seats, women not wanting, and the wild yell made vesper breathings of all that had preceded. A thousand steam whistles, ten acres of hotel gongs, a tribe of Comanches might have mingled in the scene unnoticed.”
Holding their breath
After the first ballot, Seward, as expected, led with 173 votes. Lincoln was next with 102. Cameron received 50; Chase got 49; Bates 48; and the rest received a handful each.
A second ballot was immediately called for, and the Lincoln camp knew that their man would gain strength. Vermont was the first state to make a major shift--all 10 votes went to Lincoln, a significant blow to Seward. As the roll call continued, Lincoln gained a few votes here and a few there, while Seward’s tally remained largely unchanged.
When Pennsylvania’s turn came, the Lincoln men held their breath. Whereas only four votes from Pennsylvania went to Lincoln on the first ballot, a whopping 48 went to him on the second. Seward supporters sank in their seats. Lincoln clearly had the momentum. The final tally on the second ballot was 184 for Seward and 181 for Lincoln.
A hush fell
Ballot three began. Lincoln continued to pick up votes--4 more from Kentucky, 15 from Ohio--while Seward lost votes. When the pencils stopped scratching, Lincoln had 231 and a half votes--one and a half short of those needed for the nomination.
A hush fell, and all eyes turned toward D. K. Cartter of Ohio, who stuttered out: “I-I arise, Mr. Chairman, to a-announce the ch-change of four votes, from Mr. Chase to Abraham Lincoln!” For a moment, the audience was silent--then it erupted. The sound was so deafening that the only way people could tell that cannons outside the Wigwam were being fired was by watching the smoke drift from the barrels.
Ironic footnote
So Lincoln was nominated and would be elected the nation’s 16th president. He appointed Seward secretary of state, Cameron secretary of war, Chase secretary of the Treasury, and Bates attorney general.
Lincoln proved to be a better leader than Seward. For example, when the South seceded, Seward proposed that Lincoln evoke the Monroe Doctrine to justify a declaration of war on France and Spain--which he believed would cause the South to come to the North’s aid and re-join the Union. Lincoln ignored this foolishness. “The President is the best of us!” Seward would admit later.
There is an ironic footnote to the convention story: A few blocks from the Wigwam, on the second night of the convention, the McVicker’s Theater was opening “Our American Cousin” --the play Lincoln would be watching at Ford’s Theater his last night on Earth.
http://www.greatamericanhistory.net/nomination.htm
;)
Pat
As a surrogate.
Im sure you know that Abraham Lincoln was not the delegate leader going into the republican convention. His ground game is what put him ahead of the "Plurality" leader.
But im sure you trumpsters have an excuse for that as well.
Along with his wonderful, presidential statement after the loss in Wisconsin.
What a clown. But hey, you would never know that he lost in WI based on the Trump news networks in full swing thanks to the Progressive Populist Movement.
Shame, shame for the name calling Mills.
They are all clowns Mills, it is not like any of these candidates is a miracle performer.
But Trump is tops on my list because he has the best chance of making Karl Rove squeal like Ned Betty in the back woods. After Trump my choice is RL's buddy the Honorable Ted Swaggart.
Other than those two I stay home, grab a lawn chair, a 40 of Colt 45 and watch the RNC burn to the ground.
At the start of campaigning last year, I was very hopeful.
Ted was my guy, without question.
Donald entered the race, and his first course of action was to unload both barrels on the media. I was also reached on a personal level with his outreach to Kate Steinle's parents, who, as many of you know, had her back blown out by an illegal alien.
---This Nation of ours is a dead corpse already...brain death hasn't occurred. Around the body are many people and the doors are open behind them. Discussions are taking place if there is anything left to be done...a hushed sense of urgency is present.
Others in the room are already discussing how they will benefit, or what they might inherit when the death certificate is written up. With minutes turning into seconds, a shadow from the doorway covers the backs of these idle troglodytes.
The man surveys the room, makes his assessment. He doesn't ask what's wrong with the body, he sees it. He doesn't ask what's to be done, as his quick assessment has revealed he's not in the company of the qualified.
He screams for everyone to get the fuck out!
He pushes and shoves, and from the shock of his entrance, very little resistance is met. He shuts the door, secures it, grabs the AED off the wall and walks over to the body that's rapidly turning cold...he's poised to act.
In the background, those who were hastily ushered out by this loud figure, are recovering from the shock. They are appalled by their treatment. Who is this braggart that did not consult with us...wait his turn to speak? Security has been called and the mass at the door begins to grow in numbers...they will do their best to make entry, hopefully they will be too late---
So gents, with seconds left, the argument amongst ourselves is, well, is he the right man to trust our last hope on?
I don't know. What I do know, is that his initial assessment upon entering the room is sound.
His voice was the loudest in sounding the alarm...he identified the indecisive straphangers (politicos), the parasites (illegal aliens, BLM, commies)...clearing the room was the first necessity, securing it with a closed door was the second...will he now use the AED properly and effectively?
He's pissed off the right people, and now, seemingly, the whole world outside those doors is aligning against him.
It's a gamble. I do know he is at least qualified to close the door...or, put into the country's context, secure the border.
That to me is the most direr problem we face. Without security, we will never have the clear air we need to put the necessary measures into place to save our great country.
At this late hour, I am willing to take the gamble.
In this mini narrative, there was a corollary to Ted Cruz in the room, but he was not speaking loud enough of the urgency that is at hand.
My greatest fear now, is that the Trump and Ted Cruz forces may not unite. The path to victory lies in that unification...without it, the mass huddling at the door will make entry.
And...at some point...if entry is made and our man is kept from using the AED, a greater force of men will have to decisively clear the room a second time, pull security, and perform miracles to save the corpse.
The world outside the room will get very, very ugly, but at least the room and the body...that represents the most wonderful person you know...will be saved.
Entire Post
The bottom line with Trump for me has nothing to do with his faith, it stems from his lack of both character and qualification. Your can rationalize away ugly spots in history all you want. If you are going to make sweeping blanket statements on faith being the pre-eminent identifying driver in humans then the World Wars are not a shining example. Because while there is a lot more to it than just faith, if you consider that both World Wars where among the most destructive periods in human history, what was the religion of the instigators and majority of primary combatants in both conflicts?
Germany, France, Italy, England, USA, Russia?
I don't see any value in White or Christian guilt. To me struggle for resources is as old as nature regardless of race, color, creed or religion. Perhaps that's exactly what faith is, seeing only the good in your belief set.
If a Martian came down and objectively looked at human history, he might come away thinking war is part of human nature and in particular when the Mongols or Christians have wars the destruction is off the charts.
My greatest fear now, is that the Trump and Ted Cruz forces may not unite. The path to victory lies in that unification...without it, the mass huddling at the door will make entry.
This is my primary concern with Donald Trump. If he continues the vitriolic attacks on the only other 'outside' candidate, and the only principled constitutional-conservative, he risks alienating the Ted Cruz supporters that will still vote for Trump if he secures the nomination.
If Ted Cruz wins the nomination, his personal attacks on Cruz lessen the likelihood that Cruz would nominate him for a position in a Cruz administration.
Going forward, I would much rather see Trump and Cruz have a substantive debate on the issues. Enough with the personal attacks.
Team Sergeant
04-08-2016, 12:32
Enough with the personal attacks.
Surely you jest. ;)
LOL, this is American politics, American TV, American movies, American "journalism", American media, American "social" media, should I go on?
This is what the low IQ American desires. The NY Post made a very amusing analogy today, calling "Megyn Kelly is no different than Kim Kardashian" and they are 100% right. Megyn Kelly is nothing but a tool and she's too stupid to realize it.
I doubt that Trump is worried about burning a bridge with Cruz at the risk of NOT being considered for a position in a Cruz administration.
I can't imagine a universe where Trump accepts a VP position. I don't see a Justice Trump on the horizon, and certainly don't see Cruz offering Trump a job as a cabinet secretary.
Cruz on the other hand has more to loose if the tables are turned. Cruz could fill a SCOTUS seat, Cruz could certainly fill Herman Musnter's shoes in the State Department. He can also go back to shaking things up in the Senate.
I suspect Trump would go back to building hotels, golf courses, and skyscrapers - not only will he burn the bridge trying to get the nomination, it is quite believable that he would plant cratering charges in the road leading up to the bridge...
Sigaba,
At the risk of a "historiographically" correct diatribe, would you expound on the above.
SnT
See the attached.
GratefulCitizen
04-08-2016, 23:23
I doubt that Trump is worried about burning a bridge with Cruz at the risk of NOT being considered for a position in a Cruz administration.
I can't imagine a universe where Trump accepts a VP position. I don't see a Justice Trump on the horizon, and certainly don't see Cruz offering Trump a job as a cabinet secretary.
Cruz on the other hand has more to loose if the tables are turned. Cruz could fill a SCOTUS seat, Cruz could certainly fill Herman Musnter's shoes in the State Department. He can also go back to shaking things up in the Senate.
I suspect Trump would go back to building hotels, golf courses, and skyscrapers - not only will he burn the bridge trying to get the nomination, it is quite believable that he would plant cratering charges in the road leading up to the bridge...
This is exactly why career politicians from both sides of the isle close ranks and oppose someone who isn't a career politician.
From their perspective, an outsider doesn't have any skin in the game, and isn't subject to all of their rules.
Career politicians do not mean to be public servants.
They mean to be masters.
...it should absolutely fucking terrify the aMErican public that career politicians DO IN FACT have 'skin' in the game, and yet its the folks that have something to lose that fuck citizens the hardest
See the attached.
...it should absolutely fucking terrify the aMErican public that career politicians DO IN FACT have 'skin' in the game, and yet its the folks that have something to lose that fuck citizens the hardest
Would you agree that the present day parties have drifted away from the 'American Platform' of 1856?
Drifted away?
...I'm not even smart enough to understand what the present day parties are using as a platform.
Hell, I dont know; does drift mean the same thing as retreat?
Drifted away?
...I'm not even smart enough to understand what the present day parties are using as a platform.
Hell, I dont know; does drift mean the same thing as retreat?
I should have used a pink font......I don't know if retreat is the correct term....it's too forgiving. I am thinking it has been in context of blatant disregard.
Marlboro
04-10-2016, 18:39
Lets be frank.. You can't truly credit Cruz with much when the entire party apparatus is against the concept of Trump. Functionally, this makes everything null and void in terms of how successful Cruz's delegate operation is. In every state much like this forum there is a small but dedicated grouping of people who participate continually in the process. The fact is their investment leads them to believe they control the party, but they don't. One sad but true fact is they are highly susceptible to being manipulated by the party leaders. In order for these people to find success they rely on the consultants, and the political leaders. It's a sad tale that normally finds very hopeless/frustrated people completely manipulated by the system they believe they dictate. Sadly, they are just pawns.
One of the chief premises for every party operation is fundraising, and it's absolutely amazing how much control on the state level business leaders have. While you may malign Trump's policy positions, or inflate Cruz's successes he isn't doing it alone. The "leaders" in the Republican Party are actually offering positions to those whom come out as #Nevertrump.
Be mindful what you're really supporting, because there is no way Cruz becomes the party nominee if it isn't Trump.
Lets be frank.. You can't truly credit Cruz with much when the entire party apparatus is against the concept of Trump. Functionally, this makes everything null and void in terms of how successful Cruz's delegate operation is. In every state much like this forum there is a small but dedicated grouping of people who participate continually in the process. The fact is their investment leads them to believe they control the party, but they don't. One sad but true fact is they are highly susceptible to being manipulated by the party leaders. In order for these people to find success they rely on the consultants, and the political leaders. It's a sad tale that normally finds very hopeless/frustrated people completely manipulated by the system they believe they dictate. Sadly, they are just pawns.
One of the chief premises for every party operation is fundraising, and it's absolutely amazing how much control on the state level business leaders have. While you may malign Trump's policy positions, or inflate Cruz's successes he isn't doing it alone. The "leaders" in the Republican Party are actually offering positions to those whom come out as #Nevertrump.
Be mindful what you're really supporting, because there is no way Cruz becomes the party nominee if it isn't Trump.
Great post!
Trump supporters violent?
Don't think it's them.
"3 Arrested, 4 Officers Injured During Clash Outside Trump Rally"
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/04/14/3-arrested-4-officers-injured-during-clash-outside-trump-rally/
"...According to the criminal complaint, several officers were working a “skirmish line” between Trump supporters and “anarchist members in masks” and protesters. At one point, the anarchists/protesters began using pepper spray on the officers while trying to get to the Trump supporters..."
Trump supporters violent?
Don't think it's them.
"3 Arrested, 4 Officers Injured During Clash Outside Trump Rally"
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/04/14/3-arrested-4-officers-injured-during-clash-outside-trump-rally/
"...According to the criminal complaint, several officers were working a “skirmish line” between Trump supporters and “anarchist members in masks” and protesters. At one point, the anarchists/protesters began using pepper spray on the officers while trying to get to the Trump supporters..."
Of course it has to be them. We all know that Trump is a racist hate mongerers and so are his supporters. I've been hearing that on the internet for a while now.
ddoering
04-14-2016, 14:45
Trump supporters violent?
Don't think it's them.
"3 Arrested, 4 Officers Injured During Clash Outside Trump Rally"
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/04/14/3-arrested-4-officers-injured-during-clash-outside-trump-rally/
"...According to the criminal complaint, several officers were working a “skirmish line” between Trump supporters and “anarchist members in masks” and protesters. At one point, the anarchists/protesters began using pepper spray on the officers while trying to get to the Trump supporters..."
Where are all the bad cops when you need them. They should have been slinging lead.
Where are all the bad cops when you need them. They should have been slinging lead.
Agreed...pepper sprayed and being swarmed? Might be time to up the ante, PDQ.
Moving speech by Ted Cruz...and the right move to make for himself, to be a viable Conservative force for the future, whom we will need. Right move for the Republican party, to begin to focus on the true enemy. Right move for the country, for the best chance to save it.
Now, let's see it, Trump.
Time for a full volley onto the Hillary campaign.
Trump is trying to hit the obligatory conciliatory remarks towards opponents and thank everybody in his.
Trump is trying to hit the obligatory conciliatory remarks
Of course he is, that is his job now, unite the party, but the conservatives and neocon's are really exampling their arrogance: Never Trump! That's rather rich for a group that hijacked the republican party for the past 30 years.
Crying foul, third party, and howling at the moon, going as far as labeling Trump reckless, dangerous, and unpredictable with regard to access to WMD. If I remember correctly this same charge was leveled at Goldwater in '64
He's a hugely successful businessman, a graduate of the Wharton School, a financial conservative, social centrist, a builder.
The Reaper
05-04-2016, 15:50
Of course he is, that is his job now, unite the party, but the conservatives and neocon's are really exampling their arrogance: Never Trump! That's rather rich for a group that hijacked the republican party for the past 30 years.
Crying foul, third party, and howling at the moon, going as far as labeling Trump reckless, dangerous, and unpredictable with regard to access to WMD. If I remember correctly this same charge was leveled at Goldwater in '64
He's a hugely successful businessman, a graduate of the Wharton School, a financial conservative, social centrist, a builder.
YGTBSM.
I hope he wins and governs as a true conservative.
I expect that I have a better chance at winning the lottery jackpot.
I guess time will tell.
TR
If Trump becomes president, his empire, complete with the Trump trademark, will become a major terror target and a security nightmare. Will the White House become Trump House? ;)
Pat
Team Sergeant
05-05-2016, 12:27
If Trump becomes president, his empire, complete with the Trump trademark, will become a major terror target and a security nightmare. Will the White House become Trump House? ;)
Pat
muslims don't go to strip clubs , bars and casinos, oh, wait......
you're right!
TR YGTBSM.
I hope he wins and governs as a true conservative.
I expect that I have a better chance at winning the lottery jackpot.
I guess time will tell.
TR
TR, With the outcome, are you happy yet?
Team Sergeant
12-29-2017, 08:33
I don't know why I bother. Trump is snowing you all. He's not going to burn down anything. As you were, I'm wasting my time here.
My favorite quote of 2016. :munchin
The Reaper
12-29-2017, 17:12
TR
TR, With the outcome, are you happy yet?
I am satisfied that he has done all that he could do, given the obstruction he has faced from the Dimocrats (Resistance), the MSM (still focused on Russia, while Hillary did nothing wrong), and the leadership of his own party (McConnell and Ryan are an embarrassment).
I do not think any other candidate, outside of a few who could not have carried the General Election, could have accomplished more.
And he makes the libs crazy.
TR
GratefulCitizen
12-29-2017, 18:14
The Demolition President.
http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/12/28/the-demolition-president/
I think that he is probably the most honest and open person to hold that office in a long time. He wants to do the right thing for the country and does not care which side he has to work with to get the job done. Of course he gets little or no help from either side. I like how he is not afraid to call an ace an ace or a spade a spade on the world stage, we have eaten enough of the worlds crap for too many years. YMMV
I used to like Dubya until he used the words, "governing class" while trying to lecture the American people on how Trump should act...
All it did was demonstrate that America needs an unapologetically NON-politician like Trump more than ever. This two faced hand shake to cover the back room antics of this nations hucksters gives me indigestion and loose stools.
I'll take sophomoric twitter rants over "our governing class" any day of the week and twice on sunday.
doctom54
12-31-2017, 01:00
I used to like Dubya until he used the words, "governing class" while trying to lecture the American people on how Trump should act...
All it did was demonstrate that America needs an unapologetically NON-politician like Trump more than ever. This two faced hand shake to cover the back room antics of this nations hucksters gives me indigestion and loose stools.
I'll take sophomoric twitter rants over "our governing class" any day of the week and twice on sunday.
I concur. When all the primaries etc began I said there were two people I would NEVER vote for; Hillary Rodham-Clinton (I hate hypenated names also) since they had 8+ years at the federal level, and Jeb Bush they had 12+ years at the Federal level.
In some way not much difference in how they think (i.e. the governing class) which means they think they know what best for me and everyone else.
Bull$hit.
ddoering
12-31-2017, 11:17
You people need to recognize who the Royalty is here in ameriKa.
You people need to recognize who the Royalty is here in ameriKa.
It was a lot easier to remember when it was only the Kennedy's.
GratefulCitizen
12-31-2017, 19:30
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-the-trump-era-is-changing-the-federal-bureaucracy/2017/12/30/8d5149c6-daa7-11e7-b859-fb0995360725_story.html?utm_term=.6f61877d7b3c
Something in the article that caught my attention:
“Morale has never been lower,” said Tony Reardon, president of the National Treasury Employees Union, which represents 150,000 federal workers at more than 30 agencies. “Government is making itself a lot less attractive as an employer.”
I am very curious what the opinions are of this statement...from those who served in the military during the last administration.
:munchin
Team Sergeant
01-01-2018, 18:28
Tony Reardon, president of the National Treasury Employees Union: “Government is making itself a lot less attractive as an employer.”
Spoken like a true socialist/communist.
Thank you President Trump.