Gunfight Article and Stick

[CommoGeek]

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/what_happens_gunfight/index.html

The article brought up some points we've seen before: hits count, not caliber and those that are trained for the fight usually win it. I thought his comments on the front sights of revolvers vs. autos to be... different as well as his point shooting comments.

Since this is in a major publication I thought I'd throw it out here to chew on.

Thoughts on the article? (with the obligatory :munchin )

[G]

:cool:

Excellent article for it's intended audience.

Found the section on sights very interesting. Will be trying some day-glo yellow tape on my front sight soonest!

I am involved with the training of a large group of people for such encounters in an environment where 99.99% of them will hopefully never experience such an encounter, and often wonder how they will react if / when the time comes...

I believe there is only so much that DT, dry work, range time, scenario and force on force training that I can give 'em. Hope they are never tested!

As an aside, two of my troops were holidaying in Thailand and escaped the tsunami through (what I think) is the enhanced sense of self preservation that comes with such training.

We constantly hammer our people to "trust your gut" and "if you think something is wrong, the worst thing you can do is nothing".

The two were leaving an island on a longboat bound for Phi Phi island when the tide went out from under them leaving them on the seabed. They were pushing the boat out toward open water wondering what the hell had just happened when they noticed a white haze heading at them from a distance. While others stood and watched, my guys shouted "run", grabbed their backpacks and hightailed it back to the island. They had no real idea what they were running from, but "felt" that things weren't normal.

The water did catch up with them, but they had made it far enough inland to be able to stay on the feet while the water washed around them, and were then able to return and help rescue survivors.

Many who did not heed their call to run are no longer around.

I'd like to think that our training had something to do with their survival.

Take Care...

G

[NousDefionsDoc]

You should post the article and the study mentioned if you can find it. The link will eventually be OBE.

[Team Sergeant]

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/what_happens_gunfight/index.html

The article brought up some points we've seen before: hits count, not caliber and those that are trained for the fight usually win it. I thought his comments on the front sights of revolvers vs. autos to be... different as well as his point shooting comments.

Since this is in a major publication I thought I'd throw it out here to chew on.

Thoughts on the article? (with the obligatory :munchin )

If you want input make your point. I do not read civilian mag's to learn how to fight.

"and those that are trained for the fight usually win it."

So what do you say about the 100 police officers pinned down by 2 guys with AK's ??? Were they not trained? Did the ones that survived the engagement really "win"?

Let me put it another way, how long do you think the bad men with AK's would have lasted in front of same number of soldiers armed with just pistols? Against SF types (with just pistols)? Would the possible outcome be solely based on our training or might our "mindset" come into play?

Team Sergeant

BTW I'm not placing fault with our police, I am however pointing out that it's not just tactics or weapons that win fights, it's the mindset.
(Some of my best friends are LEO's.)

[CommoGeek]

TS,
I thought it condensed several threads we've seen around here before while adding a different, not necessarily "right" position, on some things.

It would be a minor understatement to say that you have many more years and rounds doing this for real than I. I don't think, at least I didn't take it as such, that the author intended to slam police in the example/ illustration that you cited. Rather I thought it was directed at the masses, a few of which read this board.

I do agree that a LOT goes into winning a gunfight, to include a measure of luck now and then. Most people that I know that own a weapon don't think about using the pistol/ shotgun/ rifle except to hunt or target practice. For them I'd say they need to learn a better mindset than the "plinking on the range" thoughts that they have.

My apologies if I came off..... "clownish" for lack of a better description.

[Smokin Joe]

FYI Dave Spaulding (the Author of that Article) is a LEO or Retired LEO.

TS,

I whole heartly agree with what you are saying. I believe the biggest problem that plagues LEO's in a gunfight is there mindset and there training. All academy's (that I know of) teach the 1970's mindset of create distance and time blah, blah, blah and most Agencies will not teach a 'close with and kill mentality' or even let that type of training enter into there circullum. That's saved for the SWAT Cops :rolleyes:. To me that is NEGATIVE TRAINING. Because they set a precadent of only letting there "Special Cops" get the training that will truely save there life.

I thinks this is derived from an adminstrative level mindset. Police Admins don't look at situations, calculate losses in there planing phase, then go foward with the best plan Columbine comes to mind here. On that note the only good thing to come out of Columbine is it forced LEO Admins to teach or atleast provide some training in seeking out and ellimating the threat. Basically LEO's Admins don't except or plan on taking losses, so they don't plan on or accept to take losses. If they do they pretty much just shit themselves. Bottom line there is no "Acceptable Loss" when in comes to LEO gunfights. Where as the Military calculates losses and moves forward on accepting projected losses provided the plan is sound.

Wooow sorry for the rambling its late I've had way too much coffee and am working a double. Hope all that jibberish makes sense tomorrow.

[Team Sergeant]

If a person straps a gun to his or her side with the intent (or possibility) of shooting another human being then he (or she) should have the requisite training to perform such an act in the proper manner.

It is wrong to train someone with just enough information to be dangerous. Both the military and the civilian law enforcement are guilty of the above.

In my travels I have witnessed those I thought were good at their jobs and others I would not allow to be mall security. The difference between the two is usually a personal decision to become better than the “masses”. We all know people that fit into this category, they’re the ones that shoot/train on their own time and seek out instructors with the proper qualifications and mindset. They take responsibility for their actions and understand the grave burden placed on their shoulders such as defending the masses.

Again techniques, tactics and procedures are not worth a hill of beans if one does not possess the mindset required to win. I’m not talking about taking on a bad guy holding a hostage and shooting said bad guy at 100 yards from cover and concealment, or 300 Marines destroying a building with all sorts of military firepower. I’m talking of the one on one situation, or the 20 to one situation where surrender is not an option. Ones mindset coupled with proper training is the only factor that will “win the day” in those situations.

I’d write more by I know that my words might/will be read by the bad people of this world and I do not wish to give gunfight lessons online. I’d much rather instruct the law enforcement officers and military in person and ensure that they possess the proper techniques, tactics and procedures to “win the day”.

Team Sergeant

FYI, you may ask yourself “Who trained the Team Sergeant?” I’ll answer that for you, some of them are on this board, they are the Special Forces SOG,Vietnam Veterans and Senior Special Forces Officers and NCO’s. If you want that type of training then I would suggest a chat with your local recruiter. Just remember, while many try, most will not earn the Green Beret.
De Oppresso Liber

[Smokin Joe]

If a person straps a gun to his or her side with the intent (or possibility) of shooting another human being then he (or she) should have the requisite training to perform such an act in the proper manner.

It is wrong to train someone with just enough information to be dangerous. Both the military and the civilian law enforcement are guilty of the above.

In my travels I have witnessed those I thought were good at their jobs and others I would not allow to be mall security. The difference between the two is usually a personal decision to become better than the “masses”. We all know people that fit into this category, they’re the ones that shoot/train on their own time and seek out instructors with the proper qualifications and mindset. They take responsibility for their actions and understand the grave burden placed on their shoulders such as defending the masses.

Again techniques, tactics and procedures are not worth a hill of beans if one does not possess the mindset required to win. I’m not talking about taking on a bad guy holding a hostage and shooting said bad guy at 100 yards from cover and concealment, or 300 Marines destroying a building with all sorts of military firepower. I’m talking of the one on one situation, or the 20 to one situation where surrender is not an option. Ones mindset coupled with proper training is the only factor that will “win the day” in those situations.

I’d write more by I know that my words might/will be read by the bad people of this world and I do not wish to give gunfight lessons online. I’d much rather instruct the law enforcement officers and military in person and ensure that they possess the proper techniques, tactics and procedures to “win the day”.

Team Sergeant

FYI, you may ask yourself “Who trained the Team Sergeant?” I’ll answer that for you, some of them are on this board, they are the Special Forces SOG,Vietnam Veterans and Senior Special Forces Officers and NCO’s. If you want that type of training then I would suggest a chat with your local recruiter. Just remember, while many try, most will not earn the Green Beret.
De Oppresso Liber


Wanna run for Sheriff in 2008? :D

[NousDefionsDoc]

The only question I have reference the LEO Bashe...Team Sergeant's post is why else would anybody strap on a gun? :cool:

[Maas]

All academy's (that I know of) teach the 1970's mindset of create distance and time blah, blah, blah and most Agencies will not teach a 'close with and kill mentality' ...........On that note the only good thing to come out of Columbine is it forced LEO Admins to teach or at least provide some training in seeking out and eliminating the threat.

I was glad to see that was changed after Columbine. One team of shooters with the mindset of which TS spoke and authority to act, could have saved many lives.

[Team Sergeant]

I was glad to see that was changed after Columbine. One team of shooters with the mindset of which TS spoke and authority to act, could have saved many lives.

"Active shooter" is the term now being used IIRC.
I'm also glad it is being taught.
TS
(And I also continue to enjoy teaching our nations LEO's and military.)

[Smokin Joe]

I was glad to see that was changed after Columbine. One team of shooters with the mindset of which TS spoke and authority to act, could have saved many lives.

Maas the problem is that 85-90% of Cops are not being taught this on an individual level. Sure guys (general term) are getting Active Shooter training but it is not being applied on the 'individual' level. When individual officers get into a shootings (its scientifically proven) they will shrug there shoulders, crouch down, pull there gun, maybe shoot, maybe not and retreat from the threat. I have yet to hear or read of an LEO shooting (individual level) where the officers rushed the threat(s).

Training maybe getting done but its not enough because when the fit-hits-the-shan the training is not taking over. This tells me that officers are getting just enough training to be dangerous to themselves and others. However they are not recieving enough training to win gunfights.

Just my .02 cents From an LEO Firearms Insturctor Point of View.

[Maas]

Joe,
An honest question.
What can we do to change the training for LEO? I'd send a letter.

We certainly have the resources, they train 18yr olds everyday over at Sand Hill how to take on two guys with AK's. Nothing high speed, just shoot and scoot 11B basic skills.

[Smokin Joe]

Joe,
An honest question.
What can we do to change the training for LEO? I'd send a letter.

We certainly have the resources, they train 18yr olds everyday over at Sand Hill how to take on two guys with AK's. Nothing high speed, just shoot and scoot 11B basic skills.

That is a tough question here is why: Cops are trained to use the minimum amount of force necessary to stop the fight, this added to the post Rodney King Era of Law Enforcement i.e. agency frying cops for excessive use of force wether true or not. The close with and kill mind set is not taught PERIOD! I have tried to bring it to may agency and now I'm considered some sort of hyper-aggresive wacko.

Bottom line most cops (that I see and know) are gun shy. To a certain extent cops are willing to go hands on with someone they will grap someone or tackle someone and wrestle around with them however by and large cops are afraid to strike someone especially with an insturment because of he liability and because of the threat of losing there job over a use of force incident. This transfers over into gunfighting...actually the way I see it a fight is a fight! I have the same attitude weather I'm using a gun or my barehands to fight someone either way dudes going down no matter what! I will do whatever I have to make sure I win. <~~~That attitude right there is what so many cops are lacking and what so many Police Admins are affraid of. To a certain extent I agree we can't have a Police society where cops can go around jacking up whoever they want, whenever they want, and use any amount of force they want. But with societies 'preception' of reality and what reality is are two different things (just look at the media's coverage in Iraq).

Back on target: I think what needs to change is this:

1. Attitude; Cops have to be taught and have to apply (in real time and life) that Aggressive-calculating mindset that The Team Sergeant talked about I know guys who have been seriously hurt and 1 who was killed in the line of duty because they failed to act aggressively enough fast enough. Wer they complacent maybe, actually they way I look at it is Yes they were why because they failed to act in a timely manner. As a result I know 1 who is lucky to still have his left arm and the other is dead (RIP Jeff Mortiz)

2. It HAS to be backed up with consistant training day in and day out, Our SF soldiers are not the best in the world because they sit on there ass eating donuts, drinking coffee, while hitting on the waitress. They are out there training day and night to do what they need to do to Win, when they go to War. That same philosophy is what our Officers need.

3. Cops need to be trained by people who know WTF they are doing not by some ass who owns a gun club, lies on his resume, cons some police admin that he used to train Special Forces Soldiers ;) . Cops need good compitent trainers who have BTDT

4. Admin and society backing, by and large society has there head up there ass. Its admins responsiblity to help them pull it out by educating the public on Police matters, not shut the door on society and the media when they have legitmate questions. Additionally its admins responsibilty to TRAIN, SUPPORT, and MOTIVATE their officers to get out there and "Git'R Done". Its not Admins responsibilty to "Make the Board of Superivsors happy by coming in under budget."

Okay rant off.....Sorry Maas I got really long winded, I hope you can sift through the emotion involved in that post. I will try and give a more through-calculated response later when I'm at work.

[casey]

I came very close to just deciding I shouldn't get a gun right then. [QUOTE]Because why should I think I could do better than a trained FBI agent?

/QUOTE]

You are assuming that someone who is "trained" will be more apt to win in a gunfight because of "technical skill" and a government position? Big letters on the back of your jacket won't help you do the deed. Its the individual that wins gunfights not the agency of assignment.

In any large metropolitan setting, odds are you are NOT going to pick the setting, or circumstances of your shooting. Shit just happens. However, if you have trained yourself (in all types inclement weather, off hand, immediate action, low light conditions) - and are not just one of the masses going thru the mandatory range day, you are halfway there.

The skill to pull a trigger and the will to pull a trigger are two different things. Give me the quiet, unassuming person who breaks a rib practicing combat drop/fire in the rain on his own, than the guy who can cut a card at 15ft on a warm sunny day.

From my experience, it will be your situational awareness, the will to send them on target, + YOUR training that will get you home or at least seal up your side of the story - forever.

[CPTAUSRET]

FS - You are assuming that someone who is "trained" will be more apt to win in a gunfight because of "technical skill" and a government position? Big letters on the back of your jacket won't help you do the deed. Its the individual that wins gunfights not the agency of assignment.

In any large metropolitan setting, odds are you are NOT going to pick the setting, or circumstances of your shooting. Shit just happens. However, if you have trained yourself (in all types inclement weather, off hand, immediate action, low light conditions) - and are not just one of the masses going thru the mandatory range day, you are halfway there.

The skill to pull a trigger and the will to pull a trigger are two different things. Give me the quiet, unassuming person who breaks a rib practicing combat drop/fire in the rain on his own, than the guy who can cut a card at 15ft on a warm sunny day.

From my experience, it will be your situational awareness, the will to send them on target, + YOUR training that will get you home or at least seal up your side of the story - forever.

Good post, right on!

Terry

[Razor]

Good post, right on!

Terry

Quoth the car-stabber. ;)

[CPTAUSRET]

Quoth the car-stabber. ;)
G:

Hey, my brother!

Good memory, you don't forget anything, do you? I ruined a good knife (Gerber Mk 2) on that car.

Stay safe, Amigo.

Terry

[Razor]

If only you'd lost the knife by sticking it in a moron, the loss would seem less painful. :)

[CPTAUSRET]

If only you'd lost the knife by sticking it in a moron, the loss would seem less painful. :)

That's, so true, absolutely true!

[Roguish Lawyer]

Either the switch will go on, or you neighbors will be interviewed about what a great girl you were despite rumors of kitchen area domestic disturbances

Or there will be dead XYs in briefs on the kitchen floor while FS is led off to spend her years with some other "badass" XXs . . . :D

[Mac]

Great post, I thought I might have something to contribute to this. In reference to the Police training issues, Ive been a firearms instructor for our Dept (Las Vegas Metro PD) for 4 years and a Defensive Tactics instructor for 12 years. When we have the academy at the range, were limited to what averages out to be about a week (out of 19 weeks) to get them through firearms/tactics instruction....total. Thats with at least half who have never touched a firearm in their lives. Unfortunately, we cant get half of them to remember what the front sight is, let alone make them gunfighters. That time seems to be constantly cut back, due to "important" classes that must be given in their limited academy time, such as cultural awarness and sensitivity training (dont get me started). When you try to instill a warrior mindset in them, teach them to take the fight to the threat, you occasionally get reminded by range or academy staff that we only teach them to use the minimal amount of force neccessary. Its difficult to teach to them (most who have never even been in a fight, let alone a deadly force situation) to attack, to keep driving on, even if your wounded, and keep fighting until the threat has been defeated and you have won. Especially when they get mixed signals that are heavy on deescalation (which is fine before the fight starts, but once its on, that doesnt help as they second guess themselves). Its that line they dont understand and that is difficult to teach in that period of time. Fortunately, most of the instuctors have been in at least one shooting, so we try to use that as a training tool to stress the gravity to them and to continue their training, through later in-service training and on their own, after they graduate. Its weak and it sucks, but its the reality. On the plus side, our dept. has gotten better on that end. We have training now in Active Shooter sits., simunitions, tactical mindset, survivor mentality, CQB (both empty hand and firearms)that we never had before..but its still not enough. It still comes down to the individual getting off his ass, going to the range on his own time, dry fire at home, paying from his own pocket for outside training (Frontsite, Gunsite, etc.), practicing your empty hand/impact weapons/chemical, realizing that Golds Gym, not Winchells, is better for you in the long run when youre rolling around in the gutter with some shermed-out asshole. Which comes back to you have to have the mindset to not just survive, but to win. Another problem is too much reliance on gadgets, rather that spending that money on realistic, constant training. Spiffy gear is great, but if you cant use it effectively, then you are a liability with alot of expensive crap that you dont know how/when to use. Id rather have a warrior watching my back with a .38 and a wood stick than Mr. Mitty with a belt full of Bat-gadgets. Anyway, I just realized Ive taken up alot of space here. Sorry for rambling, but I get pretty worked up about these problems. Ill go back to lurking now.

[Trip_Wire (RIP)]

Great post, I thought I might have something to contribute to this. In reference to the Police training issues, Ive been a firearms instructor for our Dept (Las Vegas Metro PD) for 4 years and a Defensive Tactics instructor for 12 years. When we have the academy at the range, were limited to what averages out to be about a week (out of 19 weeks) to get them through firearms/tactics instruction....total. Thats with at least half who have never touched a firearm in their lives. Unfortunately, we cant get half of them to remember what the front sight is, let alone make them gunfighters. That time seems to be constantly cut back, due to "important" classes that must be given in their limited academy time, such as cultural awarness and sensitivity training (dont get me started). When you try to instill a warrior mindset in them, teach them to take the fight to the threat, you occasionally get reminded by range or academy staff that we only teach them to use the minimal amount of force neccessary. Its difficult to teach to them (most who have never even been in a fight, let alone a deadly force situation) to attack, to keep driving on, even if your wounded, and keep fighting until the threat has been defeated and you have won. Especially when they get mixed signals that are heavy on deescalation (which is fine before the fight starts, but once its on, that doesnt help as they second guess themselves). Its that line they dont understand and that is difficult to teach in that period of time. Fortunately, most of the instuctors have been in at least one shooting, so we try to use that as a training tool to stress the gravity to them and to continue their training, through later in-service training and on their own, after they graduate. Its weak and it sucks, but its the reality. On the plus side, our dept. has gotten better on that end. We have training now in Active Shooter sits., simunitions, tactical mindset, survivor mentality, CQB (both empty hand and firearms)that we never had before..but its still not enough. It still comes down to the individual getting off his ass, going to the range on his own time, dry fire at home, paying from his own pocket for outside training (Frontsite, Gunsite, etc.), practicing your empty hand/impact weapons/chemical, realizing that Golds Gym, not Winchells, is better for you in the long run when youre rolling around in the gutter with some shermed-out asshole. Which comes back to you have to have the mindset to not just survive, but to win. Another problem is too much reliance on gadgets, rather that spending that money on realistic, constant training. Spiffy gear is great, but if you cant use it effectively, then you are a liability with alot of expensive crap that you dont know how/when to use. Id rather have a warrior watching my back with a .38 and a wood stick than Mr. Mitty with a belt full of Bat-gadgets. Anyway, I just realized Ive taken up alot of space here. Sorry for rambling, but I get pretty worked up about these problems. Ill go back to lurking now.

Hey! Great post Mac! I too have experienced just what you are talking about here. It'd a pretty common trend in LE. A department that can get beyond the 6 month manditory simple qualification course is doing good.

It as you say, in the end it boils down to the individual and in some cases the individual incharge of a special unit to see that one becomes proficient.

Just a hint, paragraphs would make your post easier to read. :)

[Mac]

Tripwire,
Thanks. Glad I could contribute. Ref the gramatical error, no excuse...wont happen again.

[frostfire]

Are you lazy, or just not spelling it right?

TR


http://professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1559&highlight=Point+Shooting

didn't look through 2nd search results page,
assumed they're in decreasing relevance order,
I apologize, Sir
lesson learnt

[NousDefionsDoc]

Do a search - we've discussed it.

[The Reaper]

don't want to start a new thread and search button gave nichts,
so....any take on point shooting technique? eg. http://www.pointshooting.com


I got 62 hits on a search here, including one with "Point Shooting" as the title.

Are you lazy, or just not spelling it right?

TR