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trunkmonkey
12-27-2015, 15:47
In the thoughts of carrying in a suit and tie and all the news about mass shootings and IS(whatever) here on American soil I have a thought exercise in gear selection.

SCENARIO: You are a corporate security contractor tasked with providing immediate tactical response in the event of an onsite active shooter. The building you are currently working in is a 20 story office building and police response will be problematic due to city congestion. You are not allowed to look tactical as you are there incognito, supposedly there looking into making the office green. Your normal attire is a suit and tie, you must not stand there looking like a gorilla in a cheap suit that not only barely conceals the roid rage but a couple SMGs as well. You can have a rolling gear bag containing any tactical gear and weapons/optic combination you want. You can also get by with a briefcase and whatever you can fit inside.

You are limited to weaponry available for civilian purchase although SBRs and Suppressors are allowed. You will be shooting in close proximity running screaming people or personnel hiding behind their desks and cubicles. You must put on any gear over your existing clothing and you cannot have a bulletproof suit.

While you would almost certainly not be doing this alone all of the security team should be outfitted to use interchangeable magazines ie AR and Glock.

You have already coordinated with local police and have a radio which they will contact you on as soon as they are in range. you have link up procedures and the SWAT cops know you. Your task is to preserve the life of anyone on site.

Lets hear it, body armor, weapons, optics, ammo, holsters, and any necessary accessories or tools.

This may also serve as part of my wishlist for weapons gear and comms equipment so lets hear it.

Team Sergeant
12-28-2015, 10:19
So let me get this straight, you want to do the job of a soldier without looking like a soldier.

"Hey look, I've just stuffed a lion in a lamb costume!"

Good luck with that.


(Tell the boss, I'd rather have someone that looks like a soldier doing the job and put the bad-guys focus on him instead of the others that look just like him, with a suit and tie. There's a reason most large buildings employee security guard wearing uniforms complete with guns.)

The Reaper
12-28-2015, 10:24
Very interesting proposal.

I would say that generically, and not knowing if the threat is a lone idiot or a team of trained professionals, you are going to want a carbine / SBR with optics, to include night vision, at least one handgun, a non-lethal assortment of goodies, hard plates and a carrier, a multiple use trauma kit, lots of spare mags, a good radio, weapons and hand held lights, possibly a helmet with ear pro and comms, and a vest to carry your fighting load, in a secure but quickly accessible hard case. A concealable handgun, spare mags, and a tactical light, and a soft vest would be worn at all times.

TR

trunkmonkey
12-28-2015, 16:11
TS, I do not disagree and I would prefer to have properly trained, kitted out troops ready to immediately dispatch threats immediately if the need is dire enough for this level of security.

This scenario stems from a conversation I was part of at a recent security expo. Several of the companies that currently offer PI services and Armed security services are hiring a group of Joes that get all mall ninja'd out and go sit in the forest calling it an OP. These same Joes are expected to conduct discreet investigations and frankly it is going rather poor in terms of employee comfort.

A chief complaint was the lack of professionalism and general military feel of these security professionals. While the leadership enjoyed the protection and security that these personnel provided it was at a great cost to their image. I do not think that image should ever be a prime consideration if true security is desired.

As I have always loved TR's quote, "An experienced warrior will hold the edge with a 1903 Springfield over a wannabe with a SIG 552." I was curious. Whatever got you in the scenario being irrelevant you have the green light to whack the terrorist scum here in the good ole USA and have to look pretty doing it :D .

TR, My thinking is similar to yours. I was favoring something like a 10.5" AR with a can on it to preserve hearing inside close confines. I like the looks of the LWRC PDW and it would make a fun little briefcase gun but I am completely unsure of whether or not it is reliable and accurate. Whatever weapon I got would be loaded with RBCD or Lemas if I could get it.

I had thought about just running a plate carrier but the risk of small IEDs such as pipe bombs might make soft armor as well as a helmet similar to OPS CORE with lights nods and ear pro.

As I was thinking about the situation it occurred to me that a breaching tool of some kind would be useful. People will try to barricade themselves wherever and being able to move through non traditional avenues might be beneficial.

As a question TR, what holster would you use to carry while wearing soft armor constantly and add a plate carrier as needed? Would you use the same holster or switch when you donned your PC?

Mycroft
01-03-2016, 16:14
In the thoughts of carrying in a suit and tie and all the news about mass shootings and IS(whatever) here on American soil I have a thought exercise in gear selection.

SCENARIO: You are a corporate security contractor tasked with providing immediate tactical response in the event of an onsite active shooter. The building you are currently working in is a 20 story office building and police response will be problematic due to city congestion. You are not allowed to look tactical as you are there incognito, supposedly there looking into making the office green. Your normal attire is a suit and tie, you must not stand there looking like a gorilla in a cheap suit that not only barely conceals the roid rage but a couple SMGs as well. You can have a rolling gear bag containing any tactical gear and weapons/optic combination you want. You can also get by with a briefcase and whatever you can fit inside.

You are limited to weaponry available for civilian purchase although SBRs and Suppressors are allowed. You will be shooting in close proximity running screaming people or personnel hiding behind their desks and cubicles. You must put on any gear over your existing clothing and you cannot have a bulletproof suit.

While you would almost certainly not be doing this alone all of the security team should be outfitted to use interchangeable magazines ie AR and Glock.

You have already coordinated with local police and have a radio which they will contact you on as soon as they are in range. you have link up procedures and the SWAT cops know you. Your task is to preserve the life of anyone on site.

Lets hear it, body armor, weapons, optics, ammo, holsters, and any necessary accessories or tools.

This may also serve as part of my wishlist for weapons gear and comms equipment so lets hear it.
Does your office policy include armed regular employees with CCW permits in its strategy?

trunkmonkey
01-14-2016, 07:11
I hadn't considered the implications of other employees carrying. The general business consensus I've seen in corporations here is no weapons of any kind. My wife can't even take her Emerson to work, without hiding it. Lets say CCW is not allowed.

As a side question what would be the thoughts on what would happen when a couple of employees pulled out their hidden pieces, would 2-3 armed people with no idea of each other be more of a hazard to themselves and others as they tried to help?

Joker
01-14-2016, 16:48
I hadn't considered the implications of other employees carrying. The general business consensus I've seen in corporations here is no weapons of any kind. My wife can't even take her Emerson to work, without hiding it. Lets say CCW is not allowed.

As a side question what would be the thoughts on what would happen when a couple of employees pulled out their hidden pieces, would 2-3 armed people with no idea of each other be more of a hazard to themselves and others as they tried to help?

I would move.

FlagDayNCO
01-16-2016, 07:38
I have read this thread a couple of times and bit my lip every time. This whole scenario is a waiting public relations field day for the anti-gun crowd, maybe even a blood bath in the worst case outcome.

Those "Security Professionals" are a bunch of sales men, trying to hook a client into a solution they don't need. The whole idea is bad. Trying to have an air base QRF for a shopping mall...

A bunch of Joes sitting in the woods, waiting to come in and do what? Clear the objective? Just think about how an Infantry squad clears the objective on a raid. Do that on a civilian shopping mall?

Absolutely, this is a job for law enforcement, not a bunch of Joes moaning about when they get a real job.

Now mix in the LEOs comming in hot, and seeing these Joes moving around in their commando gear. Who will shoot first? This became such a hot topic several years ago, that all of our armed guys working in a corporate enviornment now wear shirts/ jackets/ vests with "ARMED OFFICER" on them. Those of us in pure civilian attire latch onto one of these guys quick, so we don't become the focus of the responding LEOs coming in to support.

In our area, we have city, various state and federal offices, all with their own uniforms, plus all the civilian attired badge and gun carrying crowd. My partner and I have seen what happens when there's a response, and we know what we have to do, but the man (oops, person) running down the street/ plaza/ lobby with a firearm is going to get shot by one of the militant LEOs. The contract security at the same locations are typically prior service military, and these people have been the best as far as seeing the big picture and keeping it real. But again, it's the responding LEOs, by the hundreds, from dozens of agencies, that make me nervous. :eek:

The point about a civilian not being allowed to CCW into the work place, well, it's just that way. We have the same rules, yet we have several hundred staff that their primary duties require them to carry a weapon. The rules are put in place by HR people that want to eliminate the right to have a weapon. This is like this in most businesses, often quietly hidden away in their insurance or personnel policies.

Move? Not us, as Pennsylvania is very pro 2A, not to mention everything else the area offers that far out weigh moving to another state. There are work arounds for everything.

Sadly, going back to the original topic, these "security professionals" routinely are anti-gun in every sense. Surveys pushed out by ASIS and ISMA reveal their anti-gun culture and reflect the truth that they are really just a bunch of progressive liberals pushing a Socialist agenda. The security industry is not our friend. :confused:

Dusty
01-16-2016, 08:15
You know it's a slow news week when we make up EP scenarios and compare wristwatches...

miclo18d
01-16-2016, 09:41
I've been biting my tongue on this one too.

Whatever weapon I got would be loaded with RBCD or Lemas if I could get it.


I didn't know what this was...

A 5 minute search revealed this is crap ammo. RBCD is made by LeMans, if that's what you meant by Lemas. I think you've been reading too many soldier of fiction mags with all the talk of SBR's with silencers and high tech ammo.

I went to war (and some neat CQB courses) with a 14.5" M4 and M855. I had NO NONE NADA ZIP ZILCH ZED NYET NEGATIVE NINE problems that would necessitate some $6000 high speed weapon and questionable (at best) ammo. I can still hear too! No silencer even though we had them!

You gonna stack some flash bangs and CS at the ready? Don't forget a $1000 tactical gas mask to go with that! $500 Peltors with PTTs, $3000 tactical comms packages, $900 M900 lights, $700 ach helmet with cool gadget attachment points. $1000 in Lvl4 plates, soft armor (just in case they have IEDs), and chest rigs.

I could go on but my fingers are starting to hurt.

Brush Okie
01-16-2016, 10:25
I cringed when I first read this myself. While I am NOT a QP I do know a little about physical security etc.

First off there is a whole lot more to physical security than arming a bunch of guys with the latest Gucci gear. Access control, camera's, badging, restricted areas locks on doors (keys pin pads badge activated locks etc)

What standard of training? Where is this at? Stand off for car bombs, What type of business is this ie will all employees need access to all floors or areas? What type of check points will you have?

All this has to be integrated into your plan well before you even think about what weapons you will outfit with. Security starts outside not at the front door. What about the parking lot? Is it restricted or public parking. how about the toilets? Will each restricted area have enough for the areas employees will be restricted to? You laugh about the toilet but its no joke when you mother nature calls and there is no facilities in your immediate area.

Dusty
01-16-2016, 13:24
You laugh about the toilet but its no joke when you mother nature calls and there is no facilities in your immediate area.

?

Note to self: quit checking this thread.

Brush Okie
01-16-2016, 13:27
?

Note to self: quit checking this thread.

I used to work at a nuke plant and while you were inside the restricted/contaminated area there was no going to the bathroom. Sounds funny now but when you have to go and need to clear the radiation detector first it is no joke.

tonyz
01-16-2016, 15:07
I used to work at a nuke plant and while you were inside the restricted/contaminated area there was no going to the bathroom. Sounds funny now but when you have to go and need to clear the radiation detector first it is no joke.

"Depends®"
;)

Dusty
01-16-2016, 15:30
I used to work at a nuke plant and while you were inside the restricted/contaminated area there was no going to the bathroom. Sounds funny now but when you have to go and need to clear the radiation detector first it is no joke.

Remind me to carry a urine/feces container next time I'm up against tangos in a nuke plant.
I knew I shouldn't have checked this thing again, but tonyz posted, and I thought maybe there was a Hanson article on it.

tonyz
01-16-2016, 15:37
Remind me to carry a urine/feces container next time I'm up against tangos in a nuke plant.
I knew I shouldn't have checked this thing again, but tonyz posted, and I thought maybe there was a Hanson article on it.

Lol, seems things might have gone to shit.

Gold Eagle
01-16-2016, 15:45
So let me get this straight, you want to do the job of a soldier without looking like a soldier.

"Hey look, I've just stuffed a lion in a lamb costume!"

Good luck with that.


(Tell the boss, I'd rather have someone that looks like a soldier doing the job and put the bad-guys focus on him instead of the others that look just like him, with a suit and tie. There's a reason most large buildings employee security guard wearing uniforms complete with guns.)

T S

Isn't there a famous army unit (not named) that does just That? :rolleyes:

trunkmonkey
01-26-2016, 10:33
So what I am getting from this is that I should have spent much more time clarifying.

I am not asking anyone whether they think it is a good idea or not. I am not asking for input on how to secure a facility or any other tradecraft related material like that. I do not need to get into an internet argument on which transducers to use for remote site security vs urban emplacements and offices.

As for whether this idea is in the fantasy realm of mall ninjas, I hate to break it to you gentlemen but it isn't. I was listening to several CSO's discuss their desire for their own company "SWAT" team. Making a decision like this is far out of my pay grade and as to whether it is a good idea... lets see... putting civilians in the middle of not only one group (terrorists) or even two (Police) but three (private security). I would not want any part of the liability shit storm that this would cause or create.

My reference to LeMas ammo which is the only place to get APLP ammo while RBCD could sell you the non armor piercing version. My research has been done and from the stellar reviews and endorsements here I found no need for other internet searches.

Do I need a $3000 SBR and suppressors for work? Nope. I carry a Sig 226. Do I want one oh hell yes and I can get one because guess what.. I live in America. I asked for civilian gear recommendations because I can go drop coin on shooter gear for fun. Same reason I have multiple motorcycles...depends on the day.

This scenario was not to for feedback of the scenario or how to deal with it but mainly what type of civilian legal gear you would get if you could, given this specific criteria. When the adventure challenge was posted I did not argue details of time machine design.

I am fortunate enough to be able to purchase whatever I want for weapons and gear for evaluation and training and it is tax deductible. So when pay raises and bonuses come in I can buy all sorts of tactical gear and guns, and it helps me stay in a lower tax bracket. Ends up saving me a few thousand in taxes each year.

So if you are using a plate carrier that you can do ballet in but costs a grand...I am a gear nut, I want to know.