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hurly
11-18-2015, 09:09
I received this email this am. Any reason for this that anyone would know of?


"Subject: 5th SFGA Flash

Gentlemen, Pass the word, at 1400 23 March 2016, the 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) will be returning the RVN Flash to its beret. This is official. Ceremony will be at Gabriel Field, Ft Campbell, KY.

jack

Jack Tobin"
"Croich Honorah"

Team Sergeant
11-18-2015, 09:50
LOL, the only reason I can think of is that hollywood has made that flash famous.
People that have no idea who the green berets are or what Special Forces is recognize that flash.

And it's probably the same reason that US Army Special Forces Command will now "fight" (legally) with anyone that wants to use "green beret" in any private business enterprise.

Funny but there is no "green beret" unit but SF Command claims the name "green beret" as it's own.

hurly
11-18-2015, 09:55
Sort of what I figured. Politics!!

Team Sergeant
11-18-2015, 10:05
Sort of what I figured. Politics!!

I'm not sure about politics, I'd be betting money is the issue.

Some SOF units have a blank check for a budget and many have a huge budget, ten times that of Special Forces.

I'm thinking Special Forces is attempting more "fame" for more money.

Next time you go to the store, any store ask the clerk if they have heard of the Navy SEALS? Then ask if they have heard of "Special Forces". The answers will amuse you.

mojaveman
11-18-2015, 14:12
Almost 31 years by my calculation. I was present for the change in early '85.

Peregrino
11-18-2015, 14:49
I asked the boss this morning. Apparently it's a go. If that's what 5th SFG(A)'s leadership thinks is important, that's their business. Personally, I think it's indefensible (translated as "stupid beyond belief") but then what do I know. After all, I left 5th for 7th in 1983 and never looked back.

Team Sergeant
11-25-2015, 10:23
Yup this has been confirmed at the highest levels.

I've heard that its because of "history".

I thought that's what museums were for?

So in 50 more years do we place the flag of Afghanistan on 5th Groups flash?

:munchin

Pete
11-25-2015, 11:54
Almost 31 years by my calculation. I was present for the change in early '85.

ODA 575 was the last holdout. We didn't change over to the "New Flash" until late summer.

Box
11-25-2015, 13:03
History is awesome.
Maybe Vietnam history overshadows GWOT history.

After all, there is no pride in spending a decade being mean to peaceful Muslims.

Flagg
11-25-2015, 13:27
I'm not sure about politics, I'd be betting money is the issue.

Some SOF units have a blank check for a budget and many have a huge budget, ten times that of Special Forces.

I'm thinking Special Forces is attempting more "fame" for more money.

Next time you go to the store, any store ask the clerk if they have heard of the Navy SEALS? Then ask if they have heard of "Special Forces". The answers will amuse you.

From an outsider's standpoint, it must be a tough one.

SF has a hard and well earned reputation for shaping/influencing/armed diplomat stuff(amongst many other things).

I'm sure there's plenty of efforts that go on behind the scenes to influence and shape those who hold the chequebooks.

But it seems like SF are a bit hamstrung by the necessary "Quiet Professional" institutional/cultural DNA when it comes to influencing the influencers(public perceptions) of the influential(those with the funding chequebooks).

I guess you can't always have your cake and eat it to.

By influencing the influencers of the influential could result in damage to that quiet professional culture and operations thru excessive media/public interest.

I guess for the same reasons why you will not see CIA operations and paramilitary slices trying to shape public perceptions for further funding, the juice would not be worth the squeeze.

It must be incredibly frustrating.

An organisation that is custom built as well as flexible/customisable to best deal with the current "long game".

But largely overshadowed in public, therefor elected, mindshare by other units that provide more visual, "short game" sound and video bytes.

Fighting against the tide of human nature and necessary cultural/operational limitations on publically selling capability.

-----

I did post somewhere here before, wondering if your community will start to take a stronger stance on protecting your brand and intellectual property.

There's a lot of value there yet untapped.

As an aspiring applicant to a Stanford executive education program(and their well regarded alumni community efforts) I'm noticing the potential the SF alumni community has(and I'm sure some or much of it is already being leveraged beyond the SFA chapters) for operating in a parallel space in the civvie world, especially since there seems to be a long(if broken at times, I'm thinking that American U research office back in the day?) history of association between SF and some well regarded schools and programs.

CW3SF
11-25-2015, 18:18
Makes no sense to me. You'd think the current leadership of the group would have much more pressing matters to tend to.

Penn
11-26-2015, 09:16
You would think that Black Flashes Matter

CW3SF
11-26-2015, 09:20
20 yrs from now they will have to bring back the black flash for all of the GWOT vets.

abc_123
11-26-2015, 16:59
I think that HQDA should enter into a partnership with UA or Nike.. that way everyone should change flashes and even entire uniforms a few times a year, like football teams do.

Team Sergeant
11-26-2015, 18:35
I think that HQDA should enter into a partnership with UA or Nike.. that way everyone should change flashes and even entire uniforms a few times a year, like football teams do.

You see, that's out of the box thinking!

A-Team sponsorships, contracts, Pepsi advertising on the sides of tanks and aircraft..... I like the way you think.

Mike
12-01-2015, 18:52
Apparantly the 1st change was short sighted and somewhat vindictive.

"Cult of personality" bullshit that perpetuates itself in SF.
But that's who we are.

Anyways, as I have stated in other places, the black flash has had some hard and honorable use that is not to be ignored.

This is a Chinese firedrill and circular firing squad in one fell swoop.

A fine mess.

I'm gonna attend the ceremony.

Team Sergeant
12-02-2015, 16:38
5th Special Forces Group unit flash was originally all black, 1961. but a white border was added almost immediately for visibility against the beret.

The Vietnam flash was adopted by the US Army Special Forces Vietnam (Provisional) 1963. (https://books.google.com/books?id=Nq0JN6R_fq0C&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=5th+group+flash+1961&source=bl&ots=XjAv0sxSyp&sig=A1ifWLI9TdEmjU1gYbGuSwX8zB0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK24KOnb7JAhWD1R4KHVn9D5sQ6AEIMzAH#v=on epage&q=5th%20group%20flash%201961&f=false)

I'd like to see the Vietnam flag right where it belongs, in Vietnam and not on our headgear. Just my opinion.

Mike
12-02-2015, 20:00
I know about the original.

Supposedly, though the stripes look like the VN flag, they represent the 1st and 7th groups who first were there. I heard that quite a while ago.

3rd group was a composite as well.

I wore a 6th flash for a bit. It was cool.

Anyways-the bottom line is we have the birth of a really needless pissing contest.

PRB
12-02-2015, 20:27
Mike,
That is the RVN Flag...just like 10th had the German colors on it's flash for the deployed Bn.
That 1st Gp-7th Gp 'rumor' began when folks in Command wanted to remove the RVN colors from the 5th Gp. flash...all of a sudden it became something else for arguments sake to retain it.

glebo
12-03-2015, 06:56
Well, this is what the 5th is officially putting out. As well as the explanation of colors/stripes...

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Release Number 15-001
FOR INFORMATION CONTACT
5th Special Forces Group Public Affairs
EMAIL: 5SFG_Flashchange@ahqb.soc.mil
Special Forces Association Chapter 38
EMAIL: secretary@sfa38.org

5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) to conduct Beret Flash Changeover Ceremony

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. – The 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) will conduct a Beret Flash Changeover Ceremony on Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at Fort Campbell, Ky.

Returning to the Vietnam beret flash, worn by the 5th SFG(A) between 1964 and 1985, acknowledges the Group's extensive history in the Vietnam War, the first large scale combat employment of U.S. Army Special Forces.

“I am proud to announce that the 5th Special Forces Group will honor our history by officially changing the unit’s beret flash back to the one utilized by 5th Group during the Vietnam War.” said Col. Kevin Leahy, commander of the 5th SFG(A). “The Group’s 20 Congressional Medal of Honor and three Australian Victoria Cross recipients are a testament to the courage and honor of those trail blazers.

Returning the yellow and red stripes to the 5th Group flash honors the Group's history and all of the Special Forces Vietnam veterans who served under 5th Group, including over eight hundred 5th Group Soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice.” Additionally, said Col. Leahy, "This change simply returns stripes to our current flash, it takes nothing away. This change ties the history of the group in Vietnam to our more recent history in the Gulf War, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq and the continuing battle against ISIL."

According to official Army records, in October, 1964, the 5th SFG(A) Commander, Col. John H. Spears, petitioned the Department of the Army to officially approve a modified 5th SFG(A) flash with diagonal yellow and red stripes. These stripes were added to the black and white 5th SFG(A) flash to represent 1st and 7th Special Forces Groups, which sent teams to Vietnam in the early days of the conflict. Additionally, the yellow and red stripes were the same colors as the Republic of Vietnam flag and served to honor Group's commitment to its Vietnamese and Montagnard partners. The request was approved in December 1964.

An official time for the ceremony will be provided in a subsequent correspondence. If you have any questions regarding the ceremony please feel free to contact the 5th Special Forces Group’s Public Affairs Office via email 5SFG_Flashchange@ahqb.soc.mil or the Special Forces Association Chapter 38 via email at secretary@sfa38.org.
-30-





The original 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne) flash (left) consists of a black background with a 1/8” white border. The Vietnam-era flash adds a 3/4” yellow stripe of which contains three smaller red stripes spaced accordingly from the center of the thicker yellow stripe; the yellow being representative of the 1st Special Forces Group (Airborne) and the red for the 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne). (U.S. Army graphic images courtesy of 5th SFG(A) Public Affairs)

Richard
12-03-2015, 07:33
Yeah - the yellow diagonal with three red stripes had nothing to do with the RVN colors or the USSF-Vietnam (Prov) flash 1962-1964 (atchd pic) whose mission the HQs 5th SFGA assumed in the late 1964 - early 1965 changeover...just like the 46th Co flash didn't include the colors of Thailand, the SFDAE/1-10th SFGA flash didn't include the colors of Germany, and the SFDetK/39th SFDet doesn't include the colors of the ROK. :rolleyes:

Amazing job by the 5th SFGA PAO.

Richard

Pete
12-03-2015, 08:25
Hmm, 10 years old flash, 30 years new flash and we're returning to the old flash for history's sake?

Disclaimer - wore the old one for 10 years and the new one for 5.

Team Sergeant
12-03-2015, 08:50
"This change ties the history of the group in Vietnam to our more recent history in the Gulf War, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq and the continuing battle against ISIL." "

Spoken like a true politician.....

I just can't make that leap.

I also wore both flashes.

(I don't care anymore, make it pink for all I care. Just stop using the 1st Group and 7th Group as excuses, my IQ is not low enough to buy that.)

VVVV
12-03-2015, 09:32
The current oval already does that, as does the PUC and other unit awards worn by everyone in Grp.

hak32001
02-29-2016, 18:49
This will be my first time purchasing a beret since the Q course. Does anyone know where around Fort Campbell to buy a pre shaved beret?

Team Sergeant
03-01-2016, 16:51
This will be my first time purchasing a beret since the Q course. Does anyone know where around Fort Campbell to buy a pre shaved beret?

Gay..... :D


I never did that to my berets, ever!

PRB
03-01-2016, 17:10
Gay..... :D


I never did that to my berets, ever!

If you wear it long enough it'll shave itself.....

hak32001
03-05-2016, 06:57
I wear mine maybe once every 2 weeks, so I'm not sure if it'll shave itself haha. I just need one for the changeover ceremony and I don't want to spend an entire day shaving and shaping the thing

blue02hd
03-05-2016, 07:20
I wear mine maybe once every 2 weeks, so I'm not sure if it'll shave itself haha. I just need one for the changeover ceremony and I don't want to spend an entire day shaving and shaping the thing

Sounds like first world problems,,,,

I'm another one who doesn't understand the "need" to change, but in the end it doesn't matter. 5th Group is damn near as incredible as 3rd Group, and it doesn't matter what color of thread they wear on their brows.

We should really concern ourselves with saving 7th Groups reputation before the Air Force chokes them out and raises their rent,,,,, May need more than a new flash to meet that end-state though.

:lifter

Premsore
03-05-2016, 18:52
I know things have changed since the late 60's when we used to sew our girlfriend's panties into the lining of our berets (only after getting to Group), but why is there a need to "shave" the beret? That just sounds wierd to me for some reason.:confused:

hak32001
03-05-2016, 19:53
I know things have changed since the late 60's when we used to sew our girlfriend's panties into the lining of our berets (only after getting to Group), but why is there a need to "shave" the beret? That just sounds wierd to me for some reason.:confused:

I didn't realize that this was a new(ish) thing. When you buy a beret at clothing and sales, they are shapeless and fuzzy as hell. We are required to shave and shape them now. It actually takes about a whole day for the entire process.
There are about 100 shops around fort Bragg that sell pre-shaved and shaped berets for about $30, which almost anyone is more than happy to pay to save the ass-pain of doing it yourself.

Premsore
03-05-2016, 20:06
Learn something new every day. We'd buy ours from clothing sales and they were good to go. Just had to have the flash sewn on and push the pins on the back of the crest through and bend them in toward each other, kind of like a staple. Some guys would cut out the lining to make them floppier but I never did, didn't see the need.
Wonder why the change to making it a pain in the ass?

Brush Okie
03-05-2016, 21:07
I know things have changed since the late 60's when we used to sew our girlfriend's panties into the lining of our berets (only after getting to Group), but why is there a need to "shave" the beret? That just sounds wierd to me for some reason.:confused:

When they let legs have Berets a few years ago like everything else they had to f--k it up.

VVVV
03-06-2016, 09:14
When they let legs have Berets a few years ago like everything else they had to f--k it up.

Legs in Group were wearing green beanies 50 years ago.