View Full Version : 3 Week SFAS vs 2 week SFAS
WildCatFootball
09-13-2015, 16:28
I have studied things on Special Forces for a long time but I cannot join because I am too short. I always think of when SFAS was two weeks long instead of today is three weeks long. I wonder how many SF soldiers today would never have made the third week yet they make great SF soldiers today and how many 'would be' SF soldiers failed the current third week but would have been selected if it were only two. I just read a book called Outliers and it explains how it's not so much ability as it is opportunity, meaning if you took non-selects and give them a chance at the Q anyway, some of them would succeed and go on to be great SF soldiers. This is reflected in cases such as minority students who have lower GPA standards for Law and Medical school acceptance, who despite being less qualified initially, have statistically the same amount of observable success as any other doctor/lawyer. I just think it's interesting.
You meet the standards at the time you go - or you don't. Simple as that.
twistedsquid
09-13-2015, 16:56
You meet the standards at the time you go - or you don't. Simple as that.
Brilliant.
I have studied things on Special Forces for a long time but I cannot join because I am too short. I always think of when SFAS was two weeks long instead of today is three weeks long. I wonder how many SF soldiers today would never have made the third week yet they make great SF soldiers today and how many 'would be' SF soldiers failed the current third week but would have been selected if it were only two. I just read a book called Outliers and it explains how it's not so much ability as it is opportunity, meaning if you took non-selects and give them a chance at the Q anyway, some of them would succeed and go on to be great SF soldiers. This is reflected in cases such as minority students who have lower GPA standards for Law and Medical school acceptance, who despite being less qualified initially, have statistically the same amount of observable success as any other doctor/lawyer. I just think it's interesting.
Stop grasping at things you cannot get or understand.
That book has nothing to do with SF training. And your theory is full of crap. It is about ability, how you seize the opportunity is a small part of it. Many of us here went through, and graduated, before there was SFAS and we experienced around the same attrition/graduation rates as today (maybe even harder). As a matter of fact, several of us have had several gut-check schools and did well. Some here even designed the first SFAS and perfected the SFAS of today.
A lot of the SF education was OJT, for the first 30 yrs or so. Even MOS specific education, was based on the teachings of those that preceded you.
The toys have changed,
but not the Men..
:lifter
Excellent.
You meet the standards at the time you go - or you don't. Simple as that.
I'd venture to say that most of the folks that wash out would wash out if it was only a week long...
1stindoor
09-14-2015, 06:02
I'd venture to say that most of the folks that wash out would wash out if it was only a week long...
That's the simple truth right there.
blue02hd
09-14-2015, 07:13
With posts like this, I would not consider your height your main problem wrt passing SFAS.
So, before you post again demonstrate your ability to follow instructions by filling out your profile as you were instructed to when you joined this site.
Team Sergeant
09-14-2015, 08:54
Stop grasping at things you cannot get or understand.
Some here even designed the first SFAS and perfected the SFAS of today.
And some of us never went to SFAS and were thrown straight into hell............:munchin ;)
And some of us never went to SFAS and were thrown straight into hell............:munchin ;)
And the Devil said
"Team Sergeant, you may leave at any time,, Please"
:lifter
Team Sergeant
09-14-2015, 08:59
And the Devil said
"Team Sergeant, you may leave at any time,, Please"
:lifter
LOL, when I went through the cadre told us if we quit there was donuts and coffee waiting for us. They were not kidding.
I went through the last easy course, MAJ (COL) Howard was there and in charge.:munchin
mark46th
09-14-2015, 12:57
Richard and I couldn't quit, we were frozen to trees. By the time we thawed out, we were already on another ruck march...
MK262MOD1
09-14-2015, 16:26
A lot of the SF education was OJT, for the first 30 yrs or so. Even MOS specific education, was based on the teachings of those that preceded you.
The toys have changed,
but not the Men..
:lifter
I keep seeing this photo. Makes me smile.
Friend, I'm getting to the point in life where I regret opportunities lost more than mistakes made, and from that perspective, let me give you some advice.
Take pride in what you have done, forget the excuses, and use the time you have to do more things you can be proud of; don't try to tear down what other men have accomplished because you didn't, no matter what the reason.
Believe me, it's the only way you're going to be able to live with yourself and be worth a damn for the rest of your life.
Friend, I'm getting to the point in life where I regret opportunities lost more than mistakes made, and from that perspective, let me give you some advice.
Take pride in what you have done, forget the excuses, and use the time you have to do more things you can be proud of; don't try to tear down what other men have accomplished because you didn't, no matter what the reason.
Believe me, it's the only way you're going to be able to live with yourself and be worth a damn for the rest of your life.
Damn fine advice sir! (point taken)
WildCatFootball
09-15-2015, 18:51
Friend, I'm getting to the point in life where I regret opportunities lost more than mistakes made, and from that perspective, let me give you some advice.
Take pride in what you have done, forget the excuses, and use the time you have to do more things you can be proud of; don't try to tear down what other men have accomplished because you didn't, no matter what the reason.
Believe me, it's the only way you're going to be able to live with yourself and be worth a damn for the rest of your life.
I think you're having issues understanding my post..
You meet the standards at the time you go - or you don't. Simple as that.
Stop grasping at things you cannot get or understand.
That book has nothing to do with SF training. And your theory is full of crap. It is about ability, how you seize the opportunity is a small part of it. Many of us here went through, and graduated, before there was SFAS and we experienced around the same attrition/graduation rates as today (maybe even harder). As a matter of fact, several of us have had several gut-check schools and did well. Some here even designed the first SFAS and perfected the SFAS of today.
A lot of the SF education was OJT, for the first 30 yrs or so. Even MOS specific education, was based on the teachings of those that preceded you.
The toys have changed,
but not the Men..
:lifter
I'd venture to say that most of the folks that wash out would wash out if it was only a week long...
And some of us never went to SFAS and were thrown straight into hell............:munchin ;)
Stay safe, take care & FIDO!
Wildcat, based on your long study of SF training, is it your position that SFAS started out as a 2 week program and just recently extend into 3 weeks?
blue02hd
09-16-2015, 08:12
I think you're having issues understanding my post..
I am quite sure you are having issues understanding mine WCF.
Very simple.
Fill out your profile as required by all members here, follow instructions with respect to this forums rules, or take your complaints elsewhere.
This is the second time you have been asked.
I have studied things on Special Forces for a long time but I cannot join because I am too short. I always think of when SFAS was two weeks long instead of today is three weeks long. I wonder how many SF soldiers today would never have made the third week yet they make great SF soldiers today and how many 'would be' SF soldiers failed the current third week but would have been selected if it were only two. I just read a book called Outliers and it explains how it's not so much ability as it is opportunity, meaning if you took non-selects and give them a chance at the Q anyway, some of them would succeed and go on to be great SF soldiers. This is reflected in cases such as minority students who have lower GPA standards for Law and Medical school acceptance, who despite being less qualified initially, have statistically the same amount of observable success as any other doctor/lawyer. I just think it's interesting.
YOU HAVE GOT TOO BE FUCKING JOKING?????
Santo Tomas
09-16-2015, 09:42
Friend, I'm getting to the point in life where I regret opportunities lost more than mistakes made, and from that perspective, let me give you some advice.
Take pride in what you have done, forget the excuses, and use the time you have to do more things you can be proud of; don't try to tear down what other men have accomplished because you didn't, no matter what the reason.
Believe me, it's the only way you're going to be able to live with yourself and be worth a damn for the rest of your life.
Nuff said
x SF med
09-16-2015, 10:54
And some of us never went to SFAS and were thrown straight into hell............:munchin ;)
Some of us got put in Pre-Phase... SFAS without a POI or end date, you were there until they thought you were 'ready' for Phase I with MAJ Howard... yes, I was a class behind TS, originally... ended up graduating 2 classes behind him. BTW... I was in Pre-phase for 4 weeks, the longest I heard of anybody staying in it was 13 months. You need to realize, that was the beginning of programming SFAS, and it would be another 7-10 years before SFAS was implemented. We lost 60% of the guys that started Pre-Phase with me in the first 2 weeks, mostly VW and swim test failures.
Who here remembers "Leeeeeeeeee-al, not Leel, LEEEEEEE-al, makaharis, remember that, gimme 20, then 20 more..."
Scimitar
09-16-2015, 12:11
Leeeeeeeeee-al, not Leel, LEEEEEEE-al, makaharis, remember that, gimme 20, then 20 more...
Now that sounds like an interesting story...
:D
S
WildCatFootball
09-16-2015, 14:16
I am quite sure you are having issues understanding mine WCF.
Very simple.
Fill out your profile as required by all members here, follow instructions with respect to this forums rules, or take your complaints elsewhere.
This is the second time you have been asked.
I'm not sure what you're talking about, my profile has been filled out since I made it.
blue02hd
09-16-2015, 14:46
Your profile is blank when I pull it up.
:confused:
WildCatFootball
09-16-2015, 18:10
Your profile is blank when I pull it up.
:confused:
Interesting...well I assure you it's complete and offers little excitement.
So much anger over my post. It was merely food for thought. While I never said nor suggested myself an expert on Special Forces, and while many of you are experts on unconventional warfare, it is possible that there are people on here who are experts in things most here don't know anything about. I'm not trying to be cheeky, just rebutting attacks at my knowledge.
Your posts are cheeky.
Take a deep breath and step back from the keyboard for a while.
This is our living room and you are a new guest.
Put more thought into any more posts you make.
I'm not sure what you're talking about, my profile has been filled out since I made it.
Well you seam to need to do some more searching and figure out how to fill in your profile...
It is blank.....
No need for any more comments just figure it out and do It.....:munchin
miclo18d
09-20-2015, 09:11
Even if this guy made selection he'd probably get a 21 day non-select....
....for just being an assclown.
Peered to the max by the others that had to endure his pseudo intellectual banter inbetween team events. "Assclown to the end" "I thought [ass]clowns weren't supposed to speak" "please don't select this assclown, he will be an embarrassment to the regiment. I have a high suspicion he wants to be a tranny"
Thanks for coming. "Don't call us, we'll call you," by the cadre, based on their combined notes of "assclown" a note on the side of one eval that mentions him saying something about hypermasculine and how trannies are hot.
And a "this target is off in left field over by the assclowns, probably end up as a tranny," by the USASOC headshrinker after reading his MMPI.
Even if this guy made selection he'd probably get a 21 day non-select....
....for just being an assclown.
Peered to the max by the others that had to endure his pseudo intellectual banter inbetween team events. "Assclown to the end" "I thought [ass]clowns weren't supposed to speak" "please don't select this assclown, he will be an embarrassment to the regiment. I have a high suspicion he wants to be a tranny"
Thanks for coming. "Don't call us, we'll call you," by the cadre, based on their combined notes of "assclown" a note on the side of one eval that mentions him saying something about hypermasculine and how trannies are hot.
And a "this target is off in left field over by the assclowns, probably end up as a tranny," by the USASOC headshrinker after reading his MMPI.
Hell he still has not figured out where and how to fill in his profile. You are spot on. From reading all his post we would be lucky to get to the final day and he would be peered as an assclown and sent home.....
PedOncoDoc
09-20-2015, 10:05
Even if this guy made selection he'd probably get a 21 day non-select....
....for just being an assclown.
Peered to the max by the others that had to endure his pseudo intellectual banter inbetween team events. "Assclown to the end" "I thought [ass]clowns weren't supposed to speak" "please don't select this assclown, he will be an embarrassment to the regiment. I have a high suspicion he wants to be a tranny"
Thanks for coming. "Don't call us, we'll call you," by the cadre, based on their combined notes of "assclown" a note on the side of one eval that mentions him saying something about hypermasculine and how trannies are hot.
And a "this target is off in left field over by the assclowns, probably end up as a tranny," by the USASOC headshrinker after reading his MMPI.
You owe me a new keyboard - but I appreciate the morning laugh. :D
The analysis of the MMPI must have become deeper since I was scoring them - and you certainly make reading the peer evals sound like good entertainment.
miclo18d
09-20-2015, 14:00
The thought came from an amalgamation of my selection class. The assclowns, were mostly shed on the pt test and swim test. Those were your "metal hut shit talkers".
Then the "cold and rain sucks!" pussies, during the long land nav (January) they were carting them off by the truck loads!
Then the guy during team week that quit right in the middle of the sandman, quickly followed by another. The second was just waiting for someone else.
The last was a 21 day nonselect that got peered for being a blue falcon. We lost one of those "short" guys. The cadre kept telling BF to speed up and he did! The other guy never quit, he got dropped for not staying with the group. He had a lot of heart and we even had a signal not to go any faster, he didn't, that guy got his just reward.
And of course there were few dropped for their MMPI, for what ever reason. I call those guys the Timothy McVeighs.
The thought came from an amalgamation of my selection class. The assclowns, were mostly shed on the pt test and swim test. Those were your "metal hut shit talkers".
Then the "cold and rain sucks!" pussies, during the long land nav (January) they were carting them off by the truck loads!
Then the guy during team week that quit right in the middle of the sandman, quickly followed by another. The second was just waiting for someone else.
The last was a 21 day nonselect that got peered for being a blue falcon. We lost one of those "short" guys. The cadre kept telling BF to speed up and he did! The other guy never quit, he got dropped for not staying with the group. He had a lot of heart and we even had a signal not to go any faster, he didn't, that guy got his just reward.
And of course there were few dropped for their MMPI, for what ever reason. I call those guys the Timothy McVeighs.
wow 2x drops during the sandman... that must have sucked ass! :eek: We had a 13man team and 2x sandmen. I can't imagine if two quit. I think my spine would have shattered or my brain woudl have stopped due to sheer misery. We finishied tm week with all 13! :lifter I think that really hurt the cadre's feelings.
miclo18d
09-21-2015, 05:36
wow 2x drops during the sandman... that must have sucked ass! :eek: We had a 13man team and 2x sandmen. I can't imagine if two quit. I think my spine would have shattered or my brain woudl have stopped due to sheer misery. We finishied tm week with all 13! :lifter I think that really hurt the cadre's feelings.
They actually have a formula that calculates the number of guys to contraptions. We had two sandmen, they took one away and gave us several ammo can/poles to carry. I think always leaving 1 or 2 people to rest we had to wait like 20 minutes for the truck to switch out gear and that put us in like a few hours later than anyone else. What sucked about my team was I was one of like 2 people that could tie lashings. So every break for me was re-tying while everyone rucksack flopped, and when I was the "leader" all the contraptions would fall apart. They disbanded our team and I went to one that was really good. We finished out strong everyday!
If I had ever been in SWC, I think I would have liked to have been an SFAS cadre. The laughs would have never ended! I'm pretty sure the cadre was laughing at my "Barney Rubble" when he fired me!
Trapper John
09-21-2015, 06:35
Guy-
re WCF's postThis is reflected in cases such as minority students who have lower GPA standards for Law and Medical school acceptance, who despite being less qualified initially, have statistically the same amount of observable success as any other doctor/lawyer. I just think it's interesting.
I'd say at the very least WCF's SA really sucks! Loved your response!
Did you visualize yourself with your hands around his throat while you were responding? :D
blue02hd
09-21-2015, 08:26
WCF posts- "I just read a book called Outliers and it explains how it's not so much ability as it is opportunity, meaning if you took non-selects and give them a chance at the Q anyway, some of them would succeed and go on to be great SF soldiers. This is reflected in cases such as minority students who have lower GPA standards for Law and Medical school acceptance, who despite being less qualified initially, have statistically the same amount of observable success as any other doctor/lawyer."
I think we may be missing a very valid learning point here, and WCF could be our instructor. Our guide. Our muse.
I would like WCF to summarize the book he references "Outliers", was it truly written with the SFAS and Q Course as he describes or was that correlation derived from our guest? Then, I'd be elated if he could provide the source of the statistics that he cites that demonstrate "minority" (please define minority) students with non qualifying GPA's statistically succeed at the same rate as all other qualified candidates. I mean if this is fact, why bother with GMAT, GRE's, SAT's, at all? Perhaps just like Global Warning and Cow Mutilations standardized testing is a myth? Have we all been mislead?
If this is true, perhaps the rest of us have been living in a false reality? If grading standards are only set to provide a certain sense of self worth and not actually assess future ability think of all the weight we can lift off of our shoulders? Could they, I dare even ponder, even be racially motivated??
I won't even ask that WCF use APA Formatting as that too is a standard and I would not want to seem narrow minded. I want to learn, I want to BELIEVE WCF, but I need more than just an unsupported opine from a guest with no publicly shared credentials. Can you provide facts that support your original statement? If so, maybe we could have a real discussion.
One last thought: Please do not simply quote from the Canadian journalist and author of "Outliers". This will require actual research and thought on your behalf.
Team Sergeant
09-21-2015, 08:52
wow 2x drops during the sandman... that must have sucked ass! :eek: We had a 13man team and 2x sandmen. I can't imagine if two quit. I think my spine would have shattered or my brain woudl have stopped due to sheer misery. We finishied tm week with all 13! :lifter I think that really hurt the cadre's feelings.
You need to 'splain what a "sandman" is to us older guys.....:munchin
I'm guessing here but is sounds like the SFAS version of COL Howard. (inflicting pain) :D
x SF med
09-21-2015, 09:14
You need to 'splain what a "sandman" is to us older guys.....:munchin
I'm guessing here but is sounds like the SFAS version of COL Howard. (inflicting pain) :D
I think it is one of the events from the LRC with a new name... probably the broken wagon or the grain sack movement...
Trapper John
09-21-2015, 09:21
You need to 'splain what a "sandman" is to us older guys.....:munchin
That's the guy that comes around at night and puts yous to sleep.
He's assisting those young whipper snappers at nap time.
Just imagine the pain of not having a sandman on your team at nap time. :eek:
Us FOGs don't need no f'n sandman, we can doze off at the drop of hat. :D
WildCatFootball
09-21-2015, 09:53
WCF posts- "I just read a book called Outliers and it explains how it's not so much ability as it is opportunity, meaning if you took non-selects and give them a chance at the Q anyway, some of them would succeed and go on to be great SF soldiers. This is reflected in cases such as minority students who have lower GPA standards for Law and Medical school acceptance, who despite being less qualified initially, have statistically the same amount of observable success as any other doctor/lawyer."
I think we may be missing a very valid learning point here, and WCF could be our instructor. Our guide. Our muse.
I would like WCF to summarize the book he references "Outliers", was it truly written with the SFAS and Q Course as he describes or was that correlation derived from our guest? Then, I'd be elated if he could provide the source of the statistics that he cites that demonstrate "minority" (please define minority) students with non qualifying GPA's statistically succeed at the same rate as all other qualified candidates. I mean if this is fact, why bother with GMAT, GRE's, SAT's, at all? Perhaps just like Global Warning and Cow Mutilations standardized testing is a myth? Have we all been mislead?
If this is true, perhaps the rest of us have been living in a false reality? If grading standards are only set to provide a certain sense of self worth and not actually assess future ability think of all the weight we can lift off of our shoulders? Could they, I dare even ponder, even be racially motivated??
I won't even ask that WCF use APA Formatting as that too is a standard and I would not want to seem narrow minded. I want to learn, I want to BELIEVE WCF, but I need more than just an unsupported opine from a guest with no publicly shared credentials. Can you provide facts that support your original statement? If so, maybe we could have a real discussion.
One last thought: Please do not simply quote from the Canadian journalist and author of "Outliers". This will require actual research and thought on your behalf.
Actually MLA is standard.
blue02hd
09-21-2015, 12:35
Actually MLA is standard.
Standard where? Do you have the ability to share knowledge and support theory? Perhaps you did not understand my meaning? More like you don't care.
Maybe you are in over your head?
Either way, if you remain a guest here in our forum you should act like one. Some excellent wisdom and experience here to learn from for those who are not short sighted. I'd say even a Canadian journalist would love to be a fly on the wall in here, and as a matter of fact many a journalist are. Whaaaat??????
As for your "short comings" relative to your SFAS potential: add critical thinking, timely analysis, ability to demonstrate competency, decision making, and less than agreeable social skills to the list of what you are missing. Other than that I'd say you'd be Honor Grad material.
Have a nice day.
And he still has not filled out his profile.
Old Dog New Trick
09-21-2015, 14:01
You need to 'splain what a "sandman" is to us older guys.....:munchin
That's one of those, "if I had to tell you, I'd have to kill you," kind of stories. :D
But I do recall he was extremely over weight and lazy as hell. Kinda like Jabba da Hut, and wanted to be treated that way too. Carried around like a Roman King. :p
Fat fucker broke my foot!
Guy- up
re WCF's post
I'd say at the very least WCF's SA really sucks! Loved your response!
Did you visualize yourself with your hands around his throat while you were responding? :DI have "very" little memory of shit that sucked nowadays unless; someone brings it up...:munchin:confused:
I have "very" little memory of shit that sucked nowadays unless; someone brings it up...:munchin:confused:
Ahhh, the slide for life into Drowning Creek breaking the ice, the hikes with MAJ/LTC Howard:lifter, and a short nap before chasing gazelles.
Yep we tend to look back at that shit fondly.:D
You need to 'splain what a "sandman" is to us older guys.....:munchin
I'm guessing here but is sounds like the SFAS version of COL Howard. (inflicting pain) :D
the early-mid 1990's version that I remember was a big assed bag (duffle bag?) full of packed wet sand that was heavy as hell. easily 200 probably more like 300 lbs. MFer was heavy!
add some poles, some rope, dudes with LBEs, rifles and 60lb rucks, loose sandy roads and trails, FBNC heat, and several miles...
...and you have a good SF time.
We had a flight suit filled with sand. That was special. :D. Steel poles weren't exactly light and added to our misery.
the early-mid 1990's version that I remember was a big assed bag (duffle bag?) full of packed wet sand that was heavy as hell. easily 200 probably more like 300 lbs. MFer was heavy!
add some poles, some rope, dudes with LBEs, rifles and 60lb rucks, loose sandy roads and trails, FBNC heat, and several miles...
...and you have a good SF time.
Last hard class
09-22-2015, 01:30
We didn't have the sandman, but we became very proficient at the fireman's carry. Why does the overweight fat marshmallow guy always get the free ride? :D
LHC