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Pete
07-09-2015, 15:33
Army to consider hollow point bullets for new pistol

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/tech/2015/07/09/handgun-system-solicitation-hollowpoint/29886907/

"The Army is considering the use of expanding and fragmenting ammunition, such as hollow point bullets, to increase its next-generation handgun's ability to stop an enemy.

This bit of news was revealed Tuesday, during the service's fourth industry day for its Modular Handgun System...."

&

"..."There's a myth that [expanding/fragmenting bullets] are prohibited in international armed conflict, but that doesn't make any sense now," Jackson said...."

Hmmmm

JJ_BPK
07-09-2015, 18:12
Did the FBI CIA Forest Rangers and/or Marine Patrol start using HP ammo?? Homeland Security baught a bunch, but I never heard what they purchased..

I know the local LEO's here in Brevard us HP's.

HP's are great when the perp has a t-shirt, but start adding field gear, soft & hard armor,, I think not so good..


:munchin

Toaster
07-14-2015, 18:18
Sounds good.

I know that Military Police on post already use them.

This hints to me that the next sidearm will continue to be a .45 set to stun (cross thread points/ref to 9mm)

My understanding is that most HPs when hitting a bunch of clothing will get blocked up and perform as a ball round. Hence, Hornady's Critical Duty has a polymer hollow point filler.

As far as armor goes, hollow point or ball it doesn't/shouldn't make a difference. I shot some soft armor HP & Ball, both were stopped. (9mm and .45)

Bleed Green
07-15-2015, 15:28
Did the FBI CIA Forest Rangers and/or Marine Patrol start using HP ammo?? Homeland Security baught a bunch, but I never heard what they purchased..

I know the local LEO's here in Brevard us HP's.

HP's are great when the perp has a t-shirt, but start adding field gear, soft & hard armor,, I think not so good..


:munchin

What DHS bought was 180 gr JHP in 40 S&W. A little bit better than the 155 stuff they bought before their current contract.

My question is, didn't the Hague Convention outlaw the use of bullets designed to expand within the body such as JHP?

JJ_BPK
07-15-2015, 16:18
My question is, didn't the Hague Convention outlaw the use of bullets designed to expand within the body such as JHP?

The US didn't sign the document..

The Reaper
07-15-2015, 16:57
We generally abide by the conventions, even though we are not signatories.

My understanding is that unless your opponent wears an identifiable uniform, has a clearly established chain of command, and follows the conventions themselves, we are not obligated to honor them either.

TR

Bleed Green
07-15-2015, 18:31
Thank you both for teaching me something I didn't know. I had always operated under the assumption that we had signed off on it since I never saw any military HP rounds.

CloseDanger
07-16-2015, 01:50
Just remember to load a round of Ball ammo to fire first in case you need to shoot out a window.

Joker
07-16-2015, 04:15
Just remember to load a round of Ball ammo to fire first in case you need to shoot out a window.

Total BS.

JimP
07-16-2015, 07:03
I read as far as dick jackson. He's not the brightest bulb in the circuit. He is probably getting beat about the head and shoulders already for his statement.

No way the cage gets rattled - internationally - to have us start using hp in international armed conflict. Example: iz was iac; afg was not. However, we didn't use hp in afg for a number of reasons. Dick doesn't understand a lot of this stuff and the country's expert (hays parks) has been retired for a few years now. When hays retired, they failed to fill his slot at dod ogc. So, shit like this pops up on occasion. I don't see it going anywhere.

Toaster
07-16-2015, 09:22
JimP,

Thank you for the insight there, it caused me to do a little digging. I will remember Dick for future reference. Like everything there's more to this than meets the eye.

Something that was interesting was Hays Parks powerpoint on why OTM ammo is not considered a HP. (link below)

http://dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Parks.pdf

JimP
07-16-2015, 20:28
Yup, brilliant piece of work. The open tip was for more accuracy, NOT increasing terminal ballistics. Dick doesn't understand this and in many cases i am personally aware of, he has done the typical lawyer thing and said "no", for something he neither understands, nor takes the time to educate himself about.

hays also wrote a brilliat piiece about SOF and non-standard uniforms. It should be required reading for all SF. It gives us incredible leeway in oarticluar Situations.
hays also wrote THE DoD Law of War manual just before he retired, but Chuck Allen brought in some Snot nosed Harvard kid who "disagreed" with Hays' work and changed a lot of his material. It was just re-released and is a mere shell
of the draft i read a few years ago. hays refuses to comment upon nor be a part of the new material. Sadly, his expertise is being totally sidelined by the current perfumed princes.

Bleed Green
07-17-2015, 19:08
I forgot to mention JJ that I have no idea what the new training ammunition is other than it is purple casings and bullets and they will function similarly to the 40 cal and 5.56 rounds we currently use for duty. I am still thinking that training with rounds you don't count on when seconds count is a stupid idea, but then again I remember bitching about 38 wad cutters when I was carrying 357 mag rounds everywhere but at the range. Some lessons that we had to learn in blood are evidently easily forgotten by todays kids that know far more than I have ever learned.

Toaster
07-17-2015, 23:18
I can see a logic in training with .38 wadcutters for a .357, not that I entirely agree with it, since IMO it's a lazy and dangerous method. Many police officers do not train daily with their own with their sidearm, and aren't great shots...

A mildly loaded .38 wadcutter is going to have less recoil than a full power .357. A good number of people are recoil sensitive, and if they were to shoot full power loads they would train in a flinch and be less than effective marksman. Having them shoot a softer shooting round helps to eliminate the flinch. Putting in the full power load for duty gives them the desired performance, and the thought is that their adrenaline will be pumping and they won't notice the recoil.

Needless to say this is not something that someone who is serious about marksmanship should do, but maybe a wife/girlfriend who wants a small gun for self defense, but will not spend time training to get better. I don't see these shooters being able to do follow up shots well either.

I can put the 90gr .38 HPs for women by hornady in my J-frame and there is no recoil worth mentioning, using a full powered .357 has more felt recoil than my full sized .45.

Just my $0.02, I'm more than willing to hear experienced opinions on the subject.

Brush Okie
07-18-2015, 00:16
We generally abide by the conventions, even though we are not signatories.

My understanding is that unless your opponent wears an identifiable uniform, has a clearly established chain of command, and follows the conventions themselves, we are not obligated to honor them either.

TR

Correct. I had to read and become very familar with Law of Land Warfare FM 27-10 as part of my CA MOS. here is the link to the text

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/27-10/Ch3.htm#s2

and the text.

80. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Engage in Hostilities

Persons, such as guerrillas and partisans, who take up arms and commit hostile acts without having complied with the conditions prescribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), are, when captured by the injured party, not entitled to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment.
81. Individuals Not of Armed Forces Who Commit Hostile Acts

Persons who, without having complied with the conditions prescribed by the laws of war for recognition as belligerents (see GPW, art. 4; par. 61 herein), commit hostile acts about or behind the lines of the enemy are not to be treated as prisoners of war and may be tried and sentenced to execution or imprisonment. Such acts include, but are not limited to, sabotage, destruction of communications facilities, intentional misleading of troops by guides, liberation of prisoners of war, and other acts not falling within Articles 104 and 106 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and Article 29 of the Hague Regulations.
82. Penalties for the Foregoing

Persons in the foregoing categories who have attempted, committed, or conspired to commit hostile or belligerent acts are subject to the extreme penalty of death because of the danger inherent in their conduct. Lesser penalties may, however, be imposed.

Team Sergeant
07-18-2015, 12:07
Just remember to load a round of Ball ammo to fire first in case you need to shoot out a window.

Total BS.

I agree. Stick with one ammo, HP's with take out a window just fine and if aimed right will finish the job as well.

Bleed Green
07-18-2015, 19:31
HP's with take out a window just fine and if aimed right will finish the job as well.

I have never seen a round not take out the side window glass, but I must confess that I have seen a few people bleeding from the head for taking a baton or a mag light that bounced off the glass and came right back at them. Who knew those pesky windows would do that? :D