Wow, what a huge mistake....... MARSOC going to Glocks

[Team Sergeant]

Really bad idea..... because they don't have the external safety everyone changes their shooting style where they place their trigger finger above and along side of the slide. By comparison if your finger was on the trigger with thumb on the safety it only takes a fraction of a second to fire, where as the glock shooter has to move their entire finger into the trigger area, place their finger back onto the trigger and begin their trigger pull. Or employ the famous and stupid Glock New York Trigger........

That's a lot to give up for the Ford Taurus of pistols...... I see many AD's in their future.........







Marine Corps first: Glock 19 approved for special operations personnel
By Douglas Ernst - The Washington Times - Tuesday, February 17, 2015

The Marine Corps recently authorized certain personnel to carry the 9mm semi-automatic Glock 19 pistol — a first for the military branch.

For now, only personnel assigned to the Corps’ Special Operations Command (MARSOC) will be authorized to carry the weapon, which has been popular worldwide with military forces and law enforcement agencies, Marine Corps Times reported Tuesday.

The Glock 19 has a reputation of being reliable in environments that cause other pistols to malfunction. Until now, Marine operators had used the 9mm Beretta M9 or M9A1 pistols, “but more often the service’s .45-caliber M45A1 Close Quarter Battle Pistol which is based on the iconic M1911 platform,” the Times reported.


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/17/marine-corps-first-glock-19-approved-special-opera/#ixzz3S2fA3uau

[JJ_BPK]

Glock are easier to burn on exfil.. :munchin

[PSM]

Glock are easier to burn on exfil.. :munchin

UUUUUhhhhh! You said that out loud, JJ! :D

Pat

[MR2]

Glock are easier to burn on exfil.. :munchin

and that's going to leave a mark...

[frostfire]

Really bad idea.....

unless you talk to a MARSOC ;)

Glock are easier to burn on exfil.. :munchin

this is so true :D
When I took my GLock armorer class with the Cumberland county sheriff folks, there was someone in the class who told a story of how he got "creative" with his glock and the oven. Something to do with proper application of Miltec. Needless to say he forgot about it and his wife preheated the oven for baking purposes. 30min later and noone was happy in the house...His wife, more than him!

[JJ_BPK]

and that's going to leave a mark...

What??

Glock Announces Full Size 1911 (http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/glock-announces-full-size-45acp-pistol/)

[Bladeenthusiast]

What??

Glock Announces Full Size 1911 (http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/glock-announces-full-size-45acp-pistol/)

What the hell is that? Haha, that's a disgrace to an original 1911. What the hell is the point of that, they need to stay within their market of polymer handguns.:rolleyes:

[Streck-Fu]

What??

Glock Announces Full Size 1911 (http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/glock-announces-full-size-45acp-pistol/)

Well played, LOL... I thought Glock was supposed to come out with a carbine before the 1911....

[Utah Bob]

Here's a FOX article/bash on the hideous 1911.
If their training was so bad that they can't handle the solid gold CQBP, God help them with the Glocks. Maybe it's the "young operators" brought up on gangsta style nines. :rolleyes:

Of course I could opine on whether or not MARSOC's existence is even necessary anyway...but I won't.
:munchin
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/19/marines-allow-operators-to-choose-glocks-over-marsoc-45s/?intcmp=ob_article_footer_text&intcmp=obnetwork

[Team Sergeant]

Here's a FOX article/bash on the hideous 1911.
If their training was so bad that they can't handle the solid gold CQBP, God help them with the Glocks. Maybe it's the "young operators" brought up on gangsta style nines. :rolleyes:

Of course I could opine on whether or not MARSOC's existence is even necessary anyway...but I won't.
:munchin
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/19/marines-allow-operators-to-choose-glocks-over-marsoc-45s/?intcmp=ob_article_footer_text&intcmp=obnetwork

1911's are as bad as glocks. The only reason 1911's are still around is that a certain Ranger unit uses them (delta force) and old men are still teaching them as the best handgun on the planet.

Yeah, read that again. If delta was not using them they would have gone the way of the dodo.

[koz]

1911's are as bad as glocks. The only reason 1911's are still around is that a certain Ranger unit uses them (delta force) and old men are still teaching them as the best handgun on the planet.

Yeah, read that again. If delta was not using them they would have gone the way of the dodo.

They quit using them some time ago. Had issues with them in the dust/sand.

[UWOA (RIP)]

I'm sorry, I like my Glocks. Between shot placement and situational awareness, I've never had a problem (including several police action shootings) ....

.

[turboprop]

Really bad idea..... because they don't have the external safety everyone changes their shooting style where they place their trigger finger above and along side of the slide. By comparison if your finger was on the trigger with thumb on the safety it only takes a fraction of a second to fire, where as the glock shooter has to move their entire finger into the trigger area, place their finger back onto the trigger and begin their trigger pull. Or employ the famous and stupid Glock New York Trigger........

That's a lot to give up for the Ford Taurus of pistols...... I see many AD's in their future.........


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/17/marine-corps-first-glock-19-approved-special-opera/#ixzz3S2fA3uau

Going to respectfully disagree with you there. Trying to shave time by putting your finger on the trigger and manipulating an external safety as you break the shot sounds like a recipe for disaster. I'm not the fastest, but I'm surely not slowed down by getting to a Glock trigger- the draw/transitioning from target to target provides ample time for getting your finger on the trigger and prep. Also-for the M9 they were left on fire with the hammer down during my time in Group (similar to the updated 92G which changed the safety to a de-cocker only), so the movement outside of the holster was the same as with a Glock, except for the M9's ridiculous 13# pull vs. the Glock 3.5-5.5#.

I will say it's weird that units go with a compact pistol for full kit use. Why not a 17 or 22?

[miclo18d]

Going to respectfully disagree with you there. Trying to shave time by putting your finger on the trigger and manipulating an external safety as you break the shot sounds like a recipe for disaster. I'm not the fastest, but I'm surely not slowed down by getting to a Glock trigger- the draw/transitioning from target to target provides ample time for getting your finger on the trigger and prep. Also-for the M9 they were left on fire with the hammer down during my time in Group (similar to the updated 92G which changed the safety to a de-cocker only), so the movement outside of the holster was the same as with a Glock, except for the M9's ridiculous 13# pull vs. the Glock 3.5-5.5#.

I will say it's weird that units go with a compact pistol for full kit use. Why not a 17 or 22?
I have but one thing to say to that...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rGnMKszxg

It actually has its own name "Glock Leg". I'm not saying that this guy is MARSOC or that this will happen everyday, but the potential is always there. I have seen weird stuff on the range. I've seen guys dropped off of teams during SFAUC, for silly things that didn't result in injury. What will happen when one of the MARSOC guys shoots himself is that they will train like the Israelis and not carry a round in the chamber. Then they will go back to 1911s

I'm not a fan of Glocks (mostly the hand grip) but I have no problem with people that use them. I personally like an extra bit of safety and nothing wrong with a few extra pounds on the trigger for a back up weapon with a trigger safety. My XDm has a back strap safety and a trigger safety, my wife's FNS has a trigger safety and a thumb safety (that works the correct way, the 1911 way, not the 92F way). Both are striker fire guns and with added safeties comes added options (carrying hot vs safe, on the range vs in my wife's purse, during CQB vs on the street for self defense)

[Streck-Fu]

With the millions of Glocks (and similar striker fired handguns) issued around the world, the issue always come back to training and awareness. Kepp your damned finger out of the trigger guard. If the user pays the most basic attention to firearm safety, they do not shoot themselves in the leg.

I don't own any Glocks any more but do not hate them. And, don't certain Army units use them?

[Combat Diver]

We've been using them for awhile. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 10th & 20th (haven't worked with any 19th Gp guys) in Astan and Iraq use the G19. There are about 1000 Glocks forward deployed (mostly in Astan). Its one of the guns I got trained at Crane on for SOF weapon repairs.


CD

[Guymullins]

I believe that is should be a design prohibition, to have a safety disengage by moving in the same direction as the trigger does to fire. This prevents any single direction act from firing the gun, be it a brush with a branch or a wayward finger.

[koz]

I have but one thing to say to that...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rGnMKszxg

Serpa Holster? I never liked the need to push a button near the trigger to remove my pistol. Too often I see people's fingers going inside the trigger guard about the same time he shot himself.

[turboprop]

I have but one thing to say to that...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rGnMKszxg

It actually has its own name "Glock Leg". I'm not saying that this guy is MARSOC or that this will happen everyday, but the potential is always there. I have seen weird stuff on the range. I've seen guys dropped off of teams during SFAUC, for silly things that didn't result in injury. What will happen when one of the MARSOC guys shoots himself is that they will train like the Israelis and not carry a round in the chamber. Then they will go back to 1911s

I'm not a fan of Glocks (mostly the hand grip) but I have no problem with people that use them. I personally like an extra bit of safety and nothing wrong with a few extra pounds on the trigger for a back up weapon with a trigger safety. My XDm has a back strap safety and a trigger safety, my wife's FNS has a trigger safety and a thumb safety (that works the correct way, the 1911 way, not the 92F way). Both are striker fire guns and with added safeties comes added options (carrying hot vs safe, on the range vs in my wife's purse, during CQB vs on the street for self defense)

The military making decisions about their equipment based on someone shooting himself as a result of pointing a pistol at his leg and firing would be silly. Is there an argument that him being shot is due to using a Glock? Sounds like "Glock leg" is a synonym for Stupid Hurts.

[DDD]

Is MARSOC replacing their 1911s or are they getting Glocks as well? More gear is always good.

[miclo18d]

The military making decisions about their equipment based on someone shooting himself as a result of pointing a pistol at his leg and firing would be silly. Is there an argument that him being shot is due to using a Glock? Sounds like "Glock leg" is a synonym for Stupid Hurts.
It's called "Glock leg" because most of the people that seem to be shooting themselves in the legs do it with Glocks. I'm sure if it were 1911s, they'd call it "1911 leg". He was drawing from a holster, not intentionally shooting himself. He was trying to get quick on the trigger and got too quick. My point being that a positive safety doesn't take more time to fire than a striker fire with a trigger safety. As far as MARSOC choosing Glock... I'd say, knowing Marines, it was more about cost, than safety or accuracy or anything else.

I personally have nothing against Glocks or Glock shooters, except maybe Yeager and his fanbois. I just don't really like Glock pistols. I've shot them. I have different tastes.

[chance]

[QUOTE=miclo18d;578287]I have but one thing to say to that...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k-rGnMKszxg


He shot himself with a Kimber Pro carry, If you listen you can hear him engage the thumb safety as he places it on the ground.

[frostfire]

Serpa Holster? I never liked the need to push a button near the trigger to remove my pistol. Too often I see people's fingers going inside the trigger guard about the same time he shot himself.

Not sure if serpa has an official training method, but I've used it safely for years to include sub .89 draws, while moving, etc.. IMHOO, the design does invite one to "push the button" using tip of finger, which would naturally result in said finger enters the trigger guard once there's no longer holster between finger and trigger. I personally "press the button" using side of finger i.e. around pip joint and proximal phalanx for the medical folks. Thus, my finger never touches the trigger until the muzzle is oriented to target/ground. With this technique, one never goes "too fast" and becomes unsafe. It's just anatomically impossible.

I do agree with those who see a design flaw and safety liability, but it's easily correctable with a safe technique x 10000 perfect reps.

I believe the Glock is a good firearm but wayyyyyy over rated.

Concur. You have to admit though that between GSSF, blue label pricing, NRA tuition free school, LEO armorer classes, and so on, they have the best/most generous marketing strategy, and therefore deserve the dominant international and national market share

[Guymullins]

This was told to me a year ago by a paratrooper friend with no shame. His name is Jaap, which is often used interchangeably for bumpkin. Jaap makes a modest living farm-sitting in the Kalahari semi-desert region. He often looks after a farm of a mutual friend who works as a military advisor (He is in Nigeria right now involved in the anti-Boko Haram offensive). This farm has the cutest colony of Meercats that live in burrows next to the house. They have become completely tame over the years and will often climb all over guests having sundowners, hoping to be fed snacks and be petted.
One late afternoon, Jaap was enjoying a beer on the veranda when a pesky Warthog forced its way under the perimeter fence to get at the vegetable patch.
Jaap jumped to his feet and drew his Glock to either chase the Warthog off or get some pork for breakfast.
In his haste, Jaap shot himself in the ass. Luckily, it was a shallow flesh wound as he was alone and hundreds of kilos from a hospital.
As soon as the Meercats saw and smelt blood, they attacked Jaap, biting him all over the body, but particularly on his legs, which were exposed in his short pants. To keep the Meercats away, Jaap fired off the rest of the magazine in the general direction of his attackers, shooting the veranda full of 9mm holes in the process.
Eventually, Jaap managed to barricade himself in the kitchen, where he could tend to his wounds, the Meercat bites the worst of them.
Jaap recovered completely from the Glock-ass and the Meercat bites, but today warns against both, calling them Fair-Weather Friends.

[FlagDayNCO]

The Marines grabbed plenty of headlines and Colt made some new friends with USMC Generals, in their decision to obtain more 1911 models.

What everyone fails to understand is the amount of upkeep required for 1911 pistols. In the CONUS firing ranges, armorers are just a few minutes away. Over in the sand box, a lot of cleaning is required of the pistols.

Repairs are not as simple as a couple of pins and some springs, the real 1911s are still a hand fitted pistol. The extractor is a prime example.

The move to Glocks is likely more to do with cost, than anything. The Glocks are simple to repair, plus the minimal cost the Big Gubmint pays is nominal compared to what a civilian would pay. Many of the partnership nations also run Glock pistols.

What I thought would have been a better move would have been S&W M&P 9, as they have received very high marks. Not to mention it is an American designed and manufactured weapon. They also have the M&P 45, which shares the major dimensions with the 9, except for length. The grip angle on the M&P is that of the 1911, plus they can be had with a manual thumb safety, a la 1911.

There likely may be some cool factor involved, as well, since the Real SF is playing with Glocks, the MARSOC fellas want to look just as cool. :cool:

[Streck-Fu]

The M&P 9 suffered some very serious accuracy issues a couple years ago related to the barrels or lock up issues. S&W chased that ghost for a while. I picked one at a good price as a local sale to try it out and experienced the issues.

I experienced groups much larger than other pistols I owned; as in 3-4" at 10y....at 25 yards, it looked like smoothbore shot gun pattern.

This problem seemed to be contained to the full size M&P9 and did not carry over to other calibers or the compact models.

I liked the firearm well enough and would consider it again if I knew the issues were fixed but the grip was too slim for me.

[Old Dog New Trick]

I've been reading this thread off and on from the beginning and the thing that strikes me is this:

Since the 1911, every handgun has been compared against it. It has many myths surrounding it and some of them are even true; probably a reason it has endured so many years and so many makers and copies. It launches a huge ass chunk of lead accurately (enough) down range with minimal effort and repeatable consistency from the shooter.

One thing it is not. SAFE! It is by its design a weapon designed to kill and to be used by those whom would undergo at least a minimum amount of training and semi-annual training in its use.

Over the years it has had small redesigns to make it "safer" and each one has made it less reliable. For those who have made the gun ever-so-more accurate, they too have made it less reliable.

Problem is with a handgun that is deemed "unsafe" and inherently easy to shoot is the likelihood of "accidental" discharge when it works as it was designed. Enter a hundred other designers to improve upon the concept of making "guns" safe enough for the idiots that carry them. Chamber indicators, DAO, DA/SA, Decocking levers, Decocking/Safety levers, etc...

Police don't and haven't spent the time, money and resources to properly train and provide refresher training. Citizens seldom seek or rehearse the skills needed to properly maintain the skills needed to operate such a "deadly" weapon. And lastly, even those in the military have limited budgets and resources to adequately train and maintain the skills necessary to operate "non-primary" systems as seen in the eyes of leadership.

The "revolver" was for the longest time considered a "safe" alternative to semi-automatics. Its inherent and simple safety-less design meant even idiots could safely carry one around without the risk of shooting themselves or someone else in the excitement of the situation.

Enter the Glock. The simplicity and difficulty of a hammer-less revolver in the form of a magazine fed semi-automatic pistol. 75-plus years of manufacturing and computer assisted design finally produced a rival to the tried and true perfection of the original John Browning design created with a lead pencil and a blank sheet of paper.

I can see why the military, police, and just about everyone (including my wife and self) have a Glock for "self-defense" and duty carry.

I miss shooting my 1911's and never had a problem with a dozen or so over the years. They all worked "as designed."

[MtnGoat]

1911's are as bad as glocks. The only reason 1911's are still around is that a certain Ranger unit uses them (delta force) and old men are still teaching them as the best handgun on the planet.

Yeah, read that again. If delta was not using them they would have gone the way of the dodo.

Last I saw CAG was carrying Glock 26 40 cal. Along with 75th RGR.

[frostfire]

MtnGoat, I think you meant G27. I've met CIF members who carried G26 downrange though.

they have the best/most generous marketing strategy, and therefore deserve the dominant international and national market share

While I see the release of G43 is uber-hyped, this is a well-made, pro-CCW, pro-armed Americans commercial....too bad it'll never be on tv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMtvjwnF9q4
http://singlestack9.com/

Need to check availability of extended grip with +2 rounds, aftermarket sights, and LEO/mil price on this...
I'm already comfortable with G26 even past 25m, sacrificing capacity for 4mm thinner might not be worth it

[Mycroft]

Umm no. Lots of people in the 1911 world think like this but the "real" 1911 is easily worked on, disassembled etc. For the snobs that want to have race gun yes but for the basic combat ready 1911 they are easy to wok on and do NOT need a lot of hand fitting etc. Everything is easy to replace and drop in. The combat 1911 was designed to work anyplace and worked well. Much like the AK 47 it was made to be a bit loose so it would reliably function in dirt etc.

I have had four 1911's since 1989 and done a lot of work on them and I am by FAR not a gunsmith. The only 1911 that ever jammed on my was my Kimber Pro Carry I had years ago. I sent it back to them and they fixed the issue. One of the 1911's I had was a Chinese Norinco and I almost guarantee it was not hand fitted. It never jammed and was accurate.

For what it's worth, I find my clark custom 1911 racegun just as easy to work on as my Pawnshop Special 1911 I picked up for a song years back. I may be lucky in that neither have ever jammed and they "Just Work."

That being said, I don't have much in the way of rounds fired on either of them ever since I started saving for a house; from memory the clark might possibly be at 1k rounds now.

And for my daily carry, I do like something simpler.

[Flagg]

I've been reading this thread off and on from the beginning and the thing that strikes me is this:

Since the 1911, every handgun has been compared against it. It has many myths surrounding it and some of them are even true; probably a reason it has endured so many years and so many makers and copies. It launches a huge ass chunk of lead accurately (enough) down range with minimal effort and repeatable consistency from the shooter.

One thing it is not. SAFE! It is by its design a weapon designed to kill and to be used by those whom would undergo at least a minimum amount of training and semi-annual training in its use.

Over the years it has had small redesigns to make it "safer" and each one has made it less reliable. For those who have made the gun ever-so-more accurate, they too have made it less reliable.

Problem is with a handgun that is deemed "unsafe" and inherently easy to shoot is the likelihood of "accidental" discharge when it works as it was designed. Enter a hundred other designers to improve upon the concept of making "guns" safe enough for the idiots that carry them. Chamber indicators, DAO, DA/SA, Decocking levers, Decocking/Safety levers, etc...

Police don't and haven't spent the time, money and resources to properly train and provide refresher training. Citizens seldom seek or rehearse the skills needed to properly maintain the skills needed to operate such a "deadly" weapon. And lastly, even those in the military have limited budgets and resources to adequately train and maintain the skills necessary to operate "non-primary" systems as seen in the eyes of leadership.

The "revolver" was for the longest time considered a "safe" alternative to semi-automatics. Its inherent and simple safety-less design meant even idiots could safely carry one around without the risk of shooting themselves or someone else in the excitement of the situation.

Enter the Glock. The simplicity and difficulty of a hammer-less revolver in the form of a magazine fed semi-automatic pistol. 75-plus years of manufacturing and computer assisted design finally produced a rival to the tried and true perfection of the original John Browning design created with a lead pencil and a blank sheet of paper.

I can see why the military, police, and just about everyone (including my wife and self) have a Glock for "self-defense" and duty carry.

I miss shooting my 1911's and never had a problem with a dozen or so over the years. They all worked "as designed."

Great post.

I loved owning a 1911. I found it like owning an American Muscle Car. You just kinda HAVE to own one, at least for a bit.

I've never carried a 1911 openly or discretely, but owned and shot one a bit. Lots of fun and I can see the affinity.

I've carried both SIG P226 and Glock overseas on tours. While I really like the SIG, I didn't like it rusting while I looked at it(very heavy pistol wear, no bluing, littoral tropical environment).

While I got pretty good with the SIG on PDT(great instruction), I got far better with the Glock(even better instruction, and with far more time/rounds/aggressive and operationally relevant training drills).

Maybe my personal affinity for Glock being a perfectly simple/servicable tool is that I was trained the most on it and performed the best on it compared to other tools.

Maybe it's like driving a VW GTI(Glock) approaching a track lap record after tuition from "Michael Schumacher" as an adult is what's driving my personal thinking when I compare it against driving a 1968 Yenko 427 Camaro(1911) at the Freaky Friday drag races with only my fellow teenaged friend "Ralph" to keep me from killing myself who also doesn't know what the hell he's doing.

If I had to choose what to carry, I'd choose Glock because it's what I've personally had the most tuition on and shot best with.

I'd agree there's better, and probably FAR better by the sounds of things amongst SMEs here. But for what I do and have done, it suits my needs pretty well.


Jaap jumped to his feet and drew his Glock to either chase the Warthog off or get some pork for breakfast.
In his haste, Jaap shot himself in the ass. Luckily, it was a shallow flesh wound as he was alone and hundreds of kilos from a hospital.
As soon as the Meercats saw and smelt blood, they attacked Jaap, biting him all over the body, but particularly on his legs, which were exposed in his short pants. To keep the Meercats away, Jaap fired off the rest of the magazine in the general direction of his attackers, shooting the veranda full of 9mm holes in the process.
Eventually, Jaap managed to barricade himself in the kitchen, where he could tend to his wounds, the Meercat bites the worst of them.
Jaap recovered completely from the Glock-ass and the Meercat bites, but today warns against both, calling them Fair-Weather Friends.

With my sense of humor I'm left thinking about a new pistol training activity called "The Meerkat Drill".

You shoot a dozen bowling pins 5-10m away while being shot from behind in the legs with a low velocity pellet rifle.

[Jgood]

Blahhh 1911's :rolleyes:
Old design with lots of problems that unless you have a very well maintained and a gunsmith in your pocket down range you will have problems. Worked with Marsoc down range bunch of them had 1911's the Marine armorers had to go through a TON of parts and basically hand build pistols out of the old 1911's they had. Besides when all the women come we wont be allowed to use 45 cal anyway :munchin



We currently have G19, G26 and M9s in Group and even heard of a couple G30s running around.

[ccrn]

Not an 18 series guy here thats for sure.

But....

Ive got about 900 hours on the range. And 22 months in combat as 11B, and 35P living with ODAs in the field. Ive carried the most unpopular M9 which served me just fine as much as I disliked it. But Ive trained with it a lot. Ive carried a USP for 8 years as my EDC (and liked it).

And against all of that I love the Glock.

The SOTIC sniper that I was with in Afghanistan (probably the BEST soldier I have ever known), and whove Ive personally seen dispatch Talibs, Chechens, and other determined combatants, thinks the Glock-17 is the best combat handgun in the world.

Good enough for me.

I dont need a safety. My finger is my safety (no pun intended), And I can get my finger into the trigger well as I present the gun. Just as I was taught by the marksmanship team that instructed my Infantry unit before going to Iraq in 2005. And just as the 18 series instructors demanded at SFBCC as we prepared for Afghanistan in 2010.

Now, I carry a Glock-19 as my EDC. And love it. Chevy or not. BTW Chevy makes some pretty good cars ie Camaro and Corvette that happen to beat some of those more expensive Ferrari's etc-
v/r

[Sohei]

I'm on my fourth Glock and I have never had an issue with any of them. They have never failed me. Prior to going to Glocks, I had Sig's, Berettas, and S&Ws. Of those, I liked my Sig the best, but with that said, I am going to stay with my Glocks for the time being.

There are a lot of fine handguns out there, but for now, I have no reason to change from Glock.