View Full Version : BATFE To Ban Common AR-15 Ammo

02-14-2015, 09:33
Beans and bullets, boys ... beans and bullets. :munchin

BATFE To Ban Common AR-15 Ammo

In a move clearly intended by the Obama Administration to suppress the acquisition, ownership and use of AR-15s and other .223 caliber general purpose rifles, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives unexpectedly announced today that it intends to ban commonplace M855 ball ammunition as “armor piercing ammunition.” The decision continues Obama’s use of his executive authority to impose gun control restrictions and bypass Congress.

It isn’t even the third week of February, and the BATFE has already taken three major executive actions on gun control. First, it was a major change to what activities constitute regulated “manufacturing” of firearms. Next, BATFE reversed a less than year old position on firing a shouldered “pistol.” Now, BATFE has released a “Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are ‘Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes’ Within the Meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(c)”, which would eliminate M855’s exemption to the armor piercing ammunition prohibition and make future exemptions nearly impossible.

By way of background, federal law imposed in 1986 prohibits the manufacture, importation, and sale by licensed manufacturers or importers, but not possession, of “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely . . . from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.” Because there are handguns capable of firing M855, it “may be used in a handgun.” It does not, however, have a core made of the metals listed in the law; rather, it has a traditional lead core with a steel tip, and therefore should never have been considered “armor piercing.” Nonetheless, BATFE previously declared M855 to be “armor piercing ammunition,” but granted it an exemption as a projectile “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”

Now, however, BATFE says that it will henceforth grant the “sporting purposes” exception to only two categories of projectiles:

Category I: .22 Caliber Projectiles

A .22 caliber projectile that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition under 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(B) will be considered to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile weighs 40 grains or less AND is loaded into a rimfire cartridge.

Category II: All Other Caliber Projectiles

Except as provided in Category I (.22 caliber rimfire), projectiles that otherwise would be classified as armor piercing ammunition will be presumed to be “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes” under section 921(a)(17)(C) if the projectile is loaded into a cartridge for which the only handgun that is readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade is a single shot handgun. ATF nevertheless retains the discretion to deny any application for a “sporting purposes” exemption if substantial evidence exists that the ammunition is not primarily intended for such purposes.

BATFE is accepting comments until March 16, 2015 on this indefensible attempt to disrupt ammunition for the most popular rifle in America. Check back early next week for a more in-depth analysis of this “framework” and details on how you can submit comments.


02-14-2015, 09:52
Will a ban on FMJ projectiles be next?

tom kelly
02-14-2015, 13:39

02-14-2015, 14:52

02-14-2015, 21:47
Personally, I think it's an administration plan because they don't want all the M855 ammo at best, or just demiled bullets, at worst, that's being replaced with M855A1 to hit the surplus market.

Of course, the also means that M855A1 will be classed as AP and we'll never see it on the market as well.

We may have Uncle over a barrel on this one. The M855 bullet does NOT meet the part of the statuary construction of an AP bullet because of it's lead core. It's possible that it might meet the definition if the jacket is thick enough to hit the "25%" part of the statute. Someone is going to have to do some serious lab work to make that determination.

Here's the title for the proposed rule:

"Framework for Determining Whether Certain Projectiles are ‘Primarily Intended for Sporting Purposes’ Within the Meaning of 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(17)(c)”

Here's the method for comments from the horse's a......mouth.

How to comment – from the BATFE

ATF will carefully consider all comments, as appropriate, received on or before March 16, 2015, and will give comments received after that date the same consideration if it is practical to do so, but assurance of consideration cannot be given except as to comments received on or before March 16, 2015. ATF will not acknowledge receipt of comments. Submit comments in any of three ways (but do not submit the same comments multiple times or by more than one method):

ATF email: APAComments@atf.gov

Fax: (202) 648-9741.

Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226: ATTN: AP Ammo Comments.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Denise Brown, Enforcement Programs and Services, Office of Regulatory Affairs, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, U.S. Department of Justice, 99 New York Avenue, NE, Washington, DC 20226; telephone: (202) 648-7070.

I would add what one blogger has posted on her board, and I agree with:

However, please do not bother to comment if you cannot express your thoughts clearly and in a well-reasoned, somewhat spell-checked fashion. "OBMA MUSLIM FUKKR MOLAN LEBE! Come n get em! SHALL NOT BE ENFRINGED, MF'ER!" is unlikely to impress (or scare) anybody.

As the great Jewish bandito warrior poet spoke from his bathtub, "When it's time to shoot, shoot; don't talk." The corollary to that is "When it's time to talk, talk; don't shoot your mouth off."

02-15-2015, 07:47
AR pistols and general "assault" pistols exist because of manufacturers working around the NFA. "Short Barrel Rifles" only exist because of the NFA.

An AR15 with a barrel under 16 inches without a stock is a Pistol.

An AR15 with a barrel under 16 inches with a stock is a Short barrel rifle.

Or either, with an OAL of less than 26'' will be a pistol or a SBR.
(excluding AOW's and OAL decisions by ATF that change opinions on weapon classification. eg Franklin AOW/Pistol) (further legal def. in GCA.)

Two weapons with the same barrel lengths, one configured as a pistol, one as an SBR, both configurations are of equal overall length category, or presumed, "conceal-ability" as referenced in the law. The only difference is one may be a pistol while the other is a registered NFA weapon.

A common OAL of a common handguns, such as a Glock, is substantially shorter. There is not common hand guns of this common OAL that have armor piercing ammunition in common civilian circulation. This is supported by the separation of typical handgun ammunition vs. rifle ammunition.

Further, statistically saying that crime is generally with hand guns is true according to FBI crime statistics. However, FBI does not clearly state if the handguns are common OAL handguns or assault pistols. This is not a fair comparison in generalizing how concealable the weapon is, nor its statistical use in crime.

There is very little to no data on how many times an assault pistol of any of these armor piercing rifle chambering has been used in US crime.
Therefore the definitions of pistol and rifle are not traditional in the sense of a common handgun. The application of this projectile can be of equal use in a full size rifle , short barrel rifle, or pistol/assault pistol. All of which are legally registered weapons in their respective classifications. All of which have various "sporting" purposes and are in common use.

Alternatively, if the view of the 2nd under current SCOTUS is of weapons in
common military use, "arms" would include ammunition, which would include ammunition in common military use. Frustratingly, it should include machine guns and short barreled rifles in the very least. But they do not view it that way.

(The elephant in the room is that the purpose of the 2nd is to NOT allow the government to ever have the upper hand. The argument that civilians cannot own certain ammo because it is dangerous to government and LEO is completely against the purpose of power equilibrium in the amendment. There was never a sporting purpose at all.)

02-15-2015, 13:15
Dear ATF,

I am emailing this as a comment for the proposed changes to the SS109/M855 exemption to the armor piercing rules.

Your proposal states the change will have no impact on people already in possession of this ammunition.

This is incorrect. Several states have laws prohibiting possession and/or use of armor piercing ammunition. Some states, in fact, consider a person in possession of AP ammunition a felon. Considering how widespread and common this ammunition is, I believe implementing this proposal would be an extreme burden on the unsuspecting public. This ammunition is sold at Walmart. Making felons out of consumers overnight seems to be a terrible decision.

I am also confused about how SS109/M855 was considered armor piercing to begin with. Most believe it is because part of the core material is the steel penetrator. But the definition in the code specifies the core be constructed entirely of (one of the prohibited materials). The majority of the core of the SS109/M855 is lead. The word "entirely" exempts SS109/M855 from the definition of armor piercing. The steel "penetrator" inside the bullet makes up less than 50% of the weight/volume. No rational person would say that the core is made entirely of steel.

In my opinion, the special exemption given to SS109/M855 was unnecessary as it never met the definition to begin with.

Thank you for consideration of this comment.


Your name

02-15-2015, 15:04
Thank you for that example Bettendorf.

I was contemplating working on my own version and posting something down the road - your example certainly gets the job done in a respectful and thoughtful manner.

Go Devil
02-15-2015, 18:52
Hips and Heads.

02-20-2015, 08:09
I enjoy Jerry's sense of humor - hope others do, too.

"Jerry goes over some of the details of why the military uses the m855 green tip ammunition and why it is not actually considered a true armor piercing round. He also has a little fun along the way!"


Sample letter to ATF in video drop down.

02-23-2015, 07:09
I don't understand what they hope to accomplish with this ban. Most of us are stocked up on 5.56. After living through 2 major ammo shortages since 2008, nobody's going to dump their stockpile no matter what it's comprised of.

The fascists may be morons, but they rarely move a pawn for no good reason. Surely it's not just an eye-poke to gun owners? Misdirection?

02-23-2015, 09:16
....knock knock knock

We're here to inspect your ammunition.

02-23-2015, 11:59
....knock knock knock

We're here to inspect your ammunition.

No worry's, here it comes!

Team Sergeant
02-23-2015, 12:39
How about we move to ban the ATF?

Talk about a federal agency that is long overdue to be defunded.

At the same time we need to end the "federal" regulation on alcohol and the state appointed "alcohol dealers".

The states do just fine in regulating firearms. And don't make me laugh at tobacco, like we need a federal agency to place a tax on tobacco?

Time to tell your pols that the ATF needs to go away.

02-24-2015, 07:26
Fax the ATF & Congress your objection to the proposed ban on M855 / SS109 sporting ammunition.

Here is a convenient link to express your point on the issue: http://www.savem855.com/

02-24-2015, 14:11
No reason not to capitalize on this:

02-27-2015, 08:35
As I said up top .... Bean and Bullets, Boys ... Bean and Bullets. :munchin

Why Is The ATF Moving To Ban Common Rifle Ammo?

Gun-rights groups are in an uproar over an ammunition ban proposed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). The ATF says it wants to ban M855 ball ammunition, a .223 (or 5.56 mm) rifle bullet that has been used by American citizens for decades. The ATF says it wants to ban this popular bullet because it is “armor piercing.”

The law at the basis of this debate is the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). As amended, the GCA prohibits the import, manufacture and distribution of “armor piercing ammunition” as defined by a few terms Attorney General Eric Holder’s Department of Justice (DOJ) is attempting to broaden.

The definition for what constitutes “armor piercing” reads: “a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely … from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.”

Now, to be as nitpicky as the law, the M855 ball ammunition the ATF wants to ban as “armor piercing” doesn’t have a core made of the metals listed in what legally makes a bullet “armor piercing.” The M855 actually has a lead core with a steel tip. Also, the M855 is traditionally a rifle cartridge and the ban only covers handgun ammunition. The DOJ argues this doesn’t stop them because the law stipulates they can ban a bullet that “may be used in a handgun.” And, after all, any cartridge may be used in a handgun.

Still, the definition has another condition. According to law, when ammo is made for “sporting purposes” (hunting, recreation shooting and so on) it is exempt from this ban. According to the DOJ the “GCA exempts ammunition that would otherwise be considered armor piercing if the Attorney General determines that the specific ammunition at issue is ‘primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.’” So, according to the DOJ, they simply get to decide on this condition.

The “sporting purposes” caveat is an important exemption, as every bullet designed to ethically kill a deer or other big-game animal (whether from a pistol, rifle or shotgun) will also shoot through a bulletproof vest. If all bullets that could potentially shoot through a cop’s bulletproof vest were banned, then hunting—at least ethical hunting with firearms—would cease. Also, shooting competitions and more would effectively be terminated. (For a behind-the-scenes expose of where gun rights and gun design is headed so my book The Future of the Gun.)

Now, the ATF isn’t saying they want to do all that, but this regulatory move would certainly take us in that direction. Also, you can’t blame people for questioning the politics behind this move when the attorney general behind this proposed ban has said his failure to further restrict Second Amendment rights is his greatest failure.

This approval process, of course, isn’t new. In 1986, the ATF actually exempted the .223 ammo it now wants to ban. Also, in 1992, the ATF exempted .30-06 M2AP cartridges (the .30-06 is a widely used and highly regarded big-game hunting round and has also long been used by the U.S. military).

So okay, if only bullets made out of a specific list of materials, used in handguns not for sporting purposes are subject to the ban, why are we talking about rifle ammo? The ATF says the reason rifles chambered in .223 are being lumped with handguns is that some manufacturers have introduced AR-type rifles (also known as “modern sporting rifles” in the firearms community and as “assault weapons” to much of the media) with short barrels and sometimes folding (or even nonexistent) butt stocks. As these guns are too short to be classified as rifles (or “long guns”), according to ATF regulations, they are regulated as “pistols.”

So the definition of what was once a pistol has become even blurrier; also, the calibers a pistol can be chambered in have grown to include many cartridges that have been traditionally considered to be rifle cartridges. This is hardly a new development. Handguns (see the G2 Contender) have long used cartridges considered to be rifle calibers. (As an historical aside: When gun makers in the 19th century developed lever-action Spencers, Winchesters and more, they started by chambering them in pistol cartridges.)

Meanwhile, bullet development has sped up as manufacturers use new materials and technologies to design bullets that reliably penetrate and kill deer, elk, bears…. Also, ammo makers have been designing specific bullets for home defense, for long-range accuracy and for many other categories.

Ammo makers have also been responding to lead-ammo bans in California and on lands in other states. Since guns were invented lead has been the go-to material for bullet design. This has been changing as some states and land agencies are being pressured to force hunters and recreational shooters to use “nontoxic” bullets. The science behind the “nontoxic” debate is dubious and very political; nevertheless, manufacturers have to respond to trends whether they are from government mandates or consumer choice.

As lead has become political, ammo makers have increased research and development into other materials. The ATF has noticed this. The ATF reports that since 2011 it has “received approximately 30 exemption requests for armor piercing ammunition.” (Most of these are simply lead-free bullet designs made for many different consumer and law-enforcement applications.)

So here we have ammunition manufacturers and America’s 100-million-plus gun owners driving innovation as a regulatory agency (in this case the ATF) is trying to keep up. That’s to be expected—laws have to be applied and, when outdated, rewritten. However, this takes a hard turn toward politics when you read the reasoning within this latest ATF move.

Well, let’s step back a second. Before getting into that, it’s important to note that though the GCA’s ban on “armor piercing” handgun ammo is certainly outdated, the reasoning behind it is not. This ban was designed to save the lives of police officers. If commonly sold handgun ammo designed for the self-defense and target market can shoot through a bulletproof vest then our police officers will have lost a potentially critical protection. But this begs the question: Is .223 M855 ball ammunition currently a problem for law enforcement? Or, more precisely, is M855 ball ammunition when shot from handguns killing law-enforcement officers? According to the FBI’s “uniform crime reports” about 2.5 percent of all murders are committed with rifles of any caliber. The FBI does not break out its statistics by caliber. I was also not able to uncover a single murder of a police officer in a shooting where someone used a handgun chambered in .223—much less one using M855 ball ammunition. (The spokesperson for the ATF has thus far failed to respond to questions.)

Given that this seems to be a solution in search of a problem, it doesn’t seem conspiratorial to wonder if this is a political move orchestrated to make it more expensive to shoot AR-15s, which are traditionally chambered in .223. In its argument for this rule change, the ATF is clearly justifying expanding the ammo ban to traditional rifle calibers. So then, might the ATF’s next move be to ban ammo for other popular military/civilian calibers like the .308 and .30-06? How about the bullets used for the .500 S&W or other large handgun calibers? If this goes forward the ATF would be assuming this regulatory authority.

In fact, while arguing that definitions of what bullets are banned shouldn’t be decided by the ammunition’s intended use, but instead should be solely determined at ATF’s discretion, the ATF says, “the intent of one group of potential consumers (criminals) is no more determinative than the intent of manufacturers.” The ATF’s lumping of law-abiding gun owners as a group of “potential consumers” with “criminals” rankled many in the gun-rights community. This and other language in the proposal is leading many to argue this is all about an end-run around Congress to implement gun control.

Whatever the motivation for this change might be, as the ATF attempts to define its way to a larger regulatory role over a constitutional right, it’s clearly time for Congress to clarify its legislation or risk being left meaningless. (The ATF has opened a public-comment period until March 16. Email APAComments@atf.gov to give your opinion.)


03-03-2015, 16:01
Well, here we go again. My wife went to Walmart today and there was no .223/5.56 on the shelves. Fortunately, I'm reasonably well stocked with it unlike the .22LR. This is getting old fast.


The Reaper
03-03-2015, 22:21
Not just M855.

All 5.56 ammo is in short supply, except for a few higher end match loads.

Watch AK ammo dry up in the near future.


03-03-2015, 22:55
Makes me glad I have an M1A along with my AR.

Guess who's next. ;)


03-04-2015, 16:26
If regular FMJ ball ammunition such as M193 and M80 will also penetrate soft body armor won't the government eventually try and ban those too?

03-04-2015, 19:46
If regular FMJ ball ammunition such as M193 and M80 will also penetrate soft body armor will the government eventually try and ban those too?


The Reaper
03-04-2015, 20:16
Pretty much all centerfire rifle rounds will penetrate soft armor.

Most centerfire rifle rounds are also capable of being fired from a pistol.

Therefore, be aware that this is one of the early steps to severely restricting ALL ammunition.

Gun control doesn't matter, if you have ammo control instead.

The seriously crazy thing is that the founding fathers wanted all men armed and equipped with military weapons and ammo for militia service, and the Miller vs. US SCOTUS decision legalized NFA weapons restrictions because a sawed-off shotgun was not considered a military weapon. Up till that point, you could buy a Thompson or a BAR just like a .22 rifle, or cut your rifle or shotgun barrel down to nothing without any Federal violation.


03-04-2015, 21:11
A couple of guys whose opinion I respect predicted this move when the AR pistols were introduced several years ago. Radway Green M855 on stripper clips/bandoliers was $127/840rd can in pallet lots at the time.

An import ban on Russian 7.62x39 is just a signature away. My guess is it'll be part of Ukraine sanctions.

03-06-2015, 06:18
Why do we worry about whats going on with our government today? This is a very disturbing clip...http://cnsnews.com/video/cnsnews/rep-jordan-blasts-head-executive-rule-making-agency-over-atf-s-proposed-ammo-ban

Refering to the ATF rep WHAT A JOKE!

03-10-2015, 13:55
It appears that the overwhelming response to the proposed ban has been repealed.

"After an unprecedented response, the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms has temporarily pulled its proposal to ban common AR-15 M885 "green tip" ammunition.

You spoke, we listened. @ATFHQ plans more study on the proposed AP Ammo exemption framework. See more http://t.co/SmRKMYvw7J
— ATF HQ (@ATFHQ) March 10, 2015

"Although ATF endeavored to create a proposal that reflected a good faith interpretation of the law and balanced the interests of law enforcement, industry, and sportsmen, the vast majority of the comments received to date are critical of the framework, and include issues that deserve further study," an ATF press release states (emphasis mine). "Accordingly, ATF will not at this time seek to issue a final framework. After the close of the comment period, ATF will process the comments received, further evaluate the issues raised therein, and provide additional open and transparent process (for example, through additional proposals and opportunities for comment) before proceeding with any framework."

Members on both sides of the aisle in Congress have also been highly critical of the proposal, along with the National Rifle Association and the National Shooting Sports Foundation. The Bureau received extra scrutiny last week when it was discovered the new ATF 2014 Regulation Guidebook did not include an exemption for AR-15 "green tip" ammunition as "armor piercing." ATF has said the Regulation Guidebook will be updated to include the exemption.

ATF released the proposal in February for public comment, citing law enforcement safety as justification for the ban. A timeline for "further study" of the proposed ban has not been issued.

“After much pressure from a large, bipartisan majority in the House of Representatives, I am pleased that the Obama Administration has abandoned its attack on the Second Amendment. Congress will continue to steadfastly protect the constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens and it is entirely inappropriate for President Obama to stretch his regulatory authority to implement partisan policies that Congress has refused to enact. Such an abuse of power would impact many law-abiding gun owners and restrict the American people’s ability to legally and responsibly exercise their Second Amendment rights," House Judiciary Chairman Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) said in a statement. “I and other members of the House Judiciary Committee will continue to keep a watchful eye on the Obama Administration so that we protect Americans’ constitutional rights. We cannot allow the President of the United States to infringe upon the Second Amendment rights afforded to all Americans.”

Despite the reversal, ATF will continue taking public comments about this proposal through March 16. "Green tip" ammunition is safe, for now. "



tom kelly
03-10-2015, 15:10
Write your congressional representatives to pass a bill to de-fund the BTAF. Reduce redundant Gov. Agencies. ALSO the worthless Agencies; The IRS, a flat tax could replace that bloated,useless, inefficient group of idiots. Homeland Security is another joke, just look at the border security in the south west of the United States; The TSA should be eliminated simply because more & more of the TSA agents are being arrested for theft of luggage, so now TSA needs an internal police force to keep stealing at a "reasonable level." The ultra liberal left; "Progressive Liberals" as they liked to be called are destroying this country....IMPEACH & CONVICT BARRY aka BHO. Tom Kelly

03-10-2015, 15:14
Not a repeal. They simply delayed the decision until the public input period is up in two weeks. They've already printed the new "regulation" anyway. "Oops, it was a simple mistake, we'll get right on correcting it in the next edition."

1) Close the last lead mine in the US.
2) Restrict importing lead as it's a toxic substance.
3) Ban all ammo imports from Russia.
4) Make non-lead core bullets illegal as "Armour piercing".
5) Control the two most popular calibers of ammo; .22 and .223
6) Raise the price of ammo at least threefold.

The good news is, "If you like your firearms, you can keep your firearms." They'll just be hanging on the wall because you won't be able to buy bullets.

Does anyone see a trend here?

I bet ole Tom Jefferson is turning over in his grave.
Didn't one King get his butt kicked over similar actions?

03-10-2015, 15:49
Based on an anomaly of a very limited production specimen, they did the same thing to 7N6 5.45x39 (http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2014/04/040714-special-advisory-test-examination-and-classification-7n6-545x39-ammunition.html) about a year ago.

It's all about control.

03-10-2015, 17:59
They got what they wanted - focus on the right hand, ignore the left hand; create turmoil; and interfere with the normal supply and demand, while flying a test balloon

03-12-2015, 16:23
So now the BATFE director wants ALL 5.56mm banned:


In a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, ATF Director B. Todd Jones said all types of the 5.56 military-style ammo used by shooters pose a threat to police as more people buy the AR-15-style pistols.
"Any 5.56 round" is "a challenge for officer safety," he said. Jones asked lawmakers to help in a review of a 1986 bill written to protect police from so-called "cop killer" rounds that largely exempted rifle ammo like the 5.56 because it has been used by target shooters, not criminals.

03-12-2015, 16:52
So now the BATFE director wants ALL 5.56mm banned:

I don't doubt B. Toad Jones wants to ban everything, less ownership by the Govt monopoly of force. (Although that is not what he specifically articulated out loud in the hearing; I saw it.) They are, and have been, seeing what they can get away with. It's up to the citizens of this country to make them blink.

03-17-2015, 05:52
That didn't take long. The dims are working legislation on this issue, naming it the "Armor Piercing Bullets Act". As to the highlighted sentence, doesn't ALL ammunition possess a potential threat? As do knives, baseball bats, tree branches, kitchenware, angry ex-wives, etc.? I'm sure this bill will be DOA if it progresses any further, but the mere fact that our tax dollars are paying these idiots is infuriating.

“As the ATF rightly pointed out, these rounds can easily be loaded into concealed pistols and other short guns, making them particularly dangerous to police officers,” Engel noted. “The well-being of the men and women who protect us should not, and need not, be a partisan issue. I encourage all of my colleagues in Congress to support this obvious measure that will, if enacted, save lives.”

Engel blamed the gun industry for promoting the use of armor-piercing bullets.

“There is absolutely no compelling argument to be made for anyone else to have access to them,” he said. “But the out of touch gun industry lobby is fighting tooth and nail to keep cop-killing ammunition on the streets.”


Where do these folks come from? Were they not born in America? Were they not elected by Americans? Our current two party system needs to go away. We indeed need "change".

03-17-2015, 06:30
The focus of the discussion needs to be about the reality of the danger to the police. The exact number of police officers wounded or killed by 5.56, and other rifle calibers, fired though pistols needs to be printed on a poster and displayed on the congressional floor.

03-17-2015, 06:48
“But the out of touch gun industry lobby is fighting tooth and nail to keep cop-killing ammunition on the streets.” That's what they said about those "vicious, tissue-ripping, evil, hollow-points." (Repeated in scripts by every morose coroner character on every TV show so it must be true.)

2 sides of the same forked-tongue.

I'll take some of each, thanks.

03-17-2015, 09:23
The political left in general, democrats specifically, are born and bred to lie to the American public. First and Second amendment issues are met with the best lies that they can muster since those are the most important - your right to talk, and your right to PROTECT your right to talk.
...and so they lie as hard as they need to lie in order to chip away at what few freedoms are left.

Think back to the lies told about the old 'Black Talons'...
...you'd have thought a single trigger pull from a weapon loaded with Black Talons would dispatch an angry little troll armed with a diamond tipped drill to pierce all known fabrics and a rusty old bone saw to hack up your flesh.

Then of course the very term "kop killer bullet" is meant not to isolate 'armor piercing' rounds, it is meant to arbitrarily label ALL bullets as deadly. Once they set precedent, they can easily outlaw birdshot as "kop killers" since they have a law on the books as precedent.
If you are wearing body armor, and you are shot through the eye and killed by a .22 short, then THAT bullet will have defeated your armor and earned its title as a "kop killer".

That could never happen in America though...
...because there are always those that will say "nuh-uh, that could never happen here, 'Muricans are too smart" but you will notice that Americans are saying "that could never happen here" are forgetting that the simple cosmetics of a weapon are enough to make it illegal in numerous states throughout America.

It could never happen here