View Full Version : Brian Williams may have fibbed
Last hard class
02-04-2015, 20:13
War correspondents tell the best war stories
http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/brian-williams-admits-he-never-came-under-fire-in-iraq-i-apologize/ar-AA8ZGmJ
LHC
The Reaper
02-04-2015, 20:34
No, he just flat-out lied his ass off.
TR
Well, since his integrity has been thrown out the window, I think it would be mighty big of him to resign his position and find himself another line of work.
But, that would only happen in my world.
I think it would be mighty big of him to resign his position and find himself another line of work.
Right! Just like Hillary did. Uh, wait, nevermind.
Pat
I don't believe he lied. I sat next to him in first class when he was returning from Iraq in 2003. He was still shaken from his ordeal. I was on the last leg of a flight returning from a Kodiak bear hunt on the Kamchatka Peninsula where we eschewed rifles and used only sheets of 100 grit garnet sandpaper. My record for brown bear taken with abrasives still stands to this day. True story.
Right! Just like Hillary did. Uh, wait, nevermind.
Pat
I was going to say Dan Rather, unreal.
somewhere there is a douche-bag harboring a grudge against Brian Williams for damaging the brand...
What he did was pathetic.
But his handling of getting busted goes much further down the bad end of the bullish!t continuum.
Remington Raidr
02-05-2015, 06:56
I wanna hear Tom Brokaw finish this up with " and THIS is an American story ":mad:
His statement: "I would not have chosen to make this mistake. I don’t know what screwed up in my mind that caused me to conflate one aircraft with another.” indicates an involuntary action.
I'm leaning toward pathological lying or False Memory Syndrome here.
So, IMO, he'll be perfect for Fox News once the NBC gig is gone.
Sounds like a perfect CV for the Senate or Secretary of State gigs - or both. Then, a sprint with "his head down" toward the Oval Office.
mark46th
02-05-2015, 09:05
He should have started his story with, "There I was, knee-deep in grenade pins!" Then we would have known it was the truth...
Javadrinker
02-05-2015, 10:17
He should have started his story with, "There I was, knee-deep in grenade pins!" Then we would have known it was the truth...
or "This is no shit .."
Team Sergeant
02-05-2015, 10:35
or "This is no shit .."
You mean , "No shit, there I was......"
Team Sergeant
02-05-2015, 10:37
Well, since his integrity has been thrown out the window, I think it would be mighty big of him to resign his position and find himself another line of work.
But, that would only happen in my world.
You mention the word "integrity" while referring to a American News Reporter?
I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to talk to you about.......
"Did you know 'Life of Brian' was my life story? Yep, Monty Python did me a solid."
Brian Williams Misremembers (https://mobile.twitter.com/search?src=typd&q=%23BrianWilliamsMisremembers)
:D
Pat
I witnessed his chopper being shot down first hand.
I had been out on a tip-top-secret scouting mission in which we were all riding on winged unicorns. I was wearing my magic helmet so no one saw me...
...but I was totally there
It's a damn shame what happened to that unicorn SGM :(
Funny, he told the truth back in 2003: ORIGINAL HELICOPTER REPORT FROM 2003 (http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/02/04/watch-brian-williams-original-helicopter-report-from-2003/)
Pat
Mr. Williams may be able to explain to the satisfaction of some his conflation as a false or mistaken memory. President Reagan had a similar issue on 12 December 1983 during a convention of Medal of Honor recipients. President Reagan said (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=40854&st=&st1=):And I found my memory going back to those things that I had read during the war, any one of them a thrilling story of heroism above and beyond the call of duty. But one in particular seemed appropriate at that time. A B-17 coming back across the channel from a raid over Europe, badly shot up by antiaircraft, the ball turret that hung underneath the belly of the plane had taken a hit. The young ball-turret gunner was wounded, and they couldn't get him out of the turret there while flying.
But over the channel, the plane began to lose altitude, and the commander had to order bail out. And as the men started to leave the plane, the last one to leave—the boy, understandably, knowing he was left behind to go down with the plane, cried out in terror—the last man to leave the plane saw the commander sit down on the floor. He took the boy's hand and said, "Never mind, son, we'll ride it down together." Congressional Medal of Honor, posthumously awarded.
In fact, the president was describing a scene from the film A Wing and a Prayer (1944).*
IMO, regardless of what he now says, Mr. Williams is the managing editor of a nightly news program. He should hold himself accountable for the failure of what ever research/editorial/fact checking processes are in place in his shop.
_________________________________________________
*FWIW, the New York Times has given President Reagan a permanent pass on this mistake (http://www.nytimes.com/movies/movie/54783/A-Wing-and-a-Prayer/overview).
Streck-Fu
02-05-2015, 14:20
Mr. Williams may be able to explain to the satisfaction of some his conflation as a false or mistaken memory.
No. He. Can't.
He should hold himself accountable for the failure of what ever research/editorial/fact checking processes are in place in his shop.
His memory is a matter of research/editorial/fact checking processes?
I can actually excuse Reagan for incorrectly thinking he read an account about an event that was actually a movie scene which may have been similar. Reagan did not try to put himself in that bomber.
Team Sergeant
02-05-2015, 14:29
Mr. Williams may be able to explain to the satisfaction of some his conflation as a false or mistaken memory. President Reagan had a similar issue on 12 December 1983 during a convention of Medal of Honor recipients. President Reagan said (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=40854&st=&st1=):
In fact, the president was describing a scene from the film A Wing and a Prayer (1944).*
IMO, regardless of what he now says, Mr. Williams is the managing editor of a nightly news program. He should hold himself accountable for the failure of what ever research/editorial/fact checking processes are in place in his shop.
_________________________________________________
*FWIW, the New York Times has given President Reagan a permanent pass on this mistake (http://www.nytimes.com/movies/movie/54783/A-Wing-and-a-Prayer/overview).
This is the last time you go tit for tat on this website. You know as well as I do that this is like comparing apples to oranges.
And yeah, I'm a "self" appointed "expert" on stolen valor.
President Reagan was not attempting to steal unearned valor.
Consider yourself warned.
His memory is a matter of research/editorial/fact checking processes?Not his memory, but his statements that were based upon his memory.
That is, before the clip got posted (as in published) on NBC Nightly News's Facebook page, it might have/should have been scrubbed by worker bees for accuracy. Such a process might have (should have) led someone to looking at the report Williams filed in 2003, and then picking up the phone and making a call.
Streck-Fu
02-05-2015, 14:38
Not his memory, but his statements that were based upon his memory.
Seriously?
A research intern needs to remind Mr. Williams that he actually wasn't in a helicopter that was shot down?
What about this 2013 recount: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCkA1cgQStE
CDRODA396
02-05-2015, 19:01
First he lies, then lies about the lie. Nothing to see here...If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor....Hell I have more respect for Jimmy Swaggart and his pathetic apology when he got caught sinning with an evil woman of ill repute...he owned it, cried a little and all is forgiven.
"I have sinned against You, my Lord, and I would ask that Your Precious Blood would wash and cleanse every stain until it is in the seas of God's forgetfulness, not to be remembered against me anymore."
This clown wont even have to go through the motions....in 10 minutes another sound bite will come along and all will be forgotten...the American public....
Divemaster
02-05-2015, 23:53
Both FOX and CNN have given due air time to this story, so the coverage is "fair and balanced". Brian Williams is a douche. I remember pretty much every event (in vivid color) during my brief and less than "S**L Combat Memoir" worthy combat experience. I remember that the the vehicle behind mine was the one with the most damage (no injuries) and that mine took a single piece of frag through the ass end. Even 40 years from now I won't magically transport myself into the vehicle that got hit and become my junior 18B in the turret who shouted, "I felt that one in my balls!"
Brian Williams, that's the difference. My 20-something Special Forces Weapons Sergeant actually had balls.
This is a pretty good piece which should 'tweak' the sensibilities of the Fourth Estate, in particular, and JQP, in general.
Brian Williams’s Mistake
Ken Auletta, NYer, 5 Feb 2015
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/brian-williams-mistake?intcid=mod-yml
And on the lighter side:
The Fact-Checked Adventures of Brian Williams
Andy Borowitz, NYer, 5 Feb 2015
The fact-checking department at NBC News has verified that the following anecdotes told by Brian Williams actually happened.
1. In August of 2003, I boarded a helicopter to Steven Spielberg’s house in East Hampton. Once we were up in the air, I was alarmed to discover that there was no bottled water on board. I commanded the pilot to make an emergency landing.
2. In November of 2007, I boarded a Cadillac Escalade to attend the annual gala of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Not until I arrived at my destination did I realize that the driver had closed the door on my Armani coat. I was able to have it successfully dry-cleaned, but that was a close one.
3. In March of 1998, I fell asleep on my tanning bed. I could have been burnt to a crisp. Fortunately, I woke up in the nick of time, but the people at the spa had needlessly endangered me. I started going to a new spa.
4. In May of 2011, the elevator in my building suffered an equipment malfunction en route to my penthouse. I was stuck talking to a tax attorney for seven minutes before I was rescued.
5. While in Sochi for the Olympics last year, I ordered dinner from room service. I don’t know if it was the oysters or the caviar, but something had gone bad. I was hurling all night.
6. In December of last year, I had to attend a live broadcast of “Peter Pan.” It was worse than I expected, but I was trapped for two hours with no way out.
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/fact-checked-adventures-brian-williams?intcid=mod-most-popular
Richard
Last hard class
02-06-2015, 13:42
Jimmy Swaggart and his pathetic apology
"I have sinned against You, my Lord, and I would ask that Your Precious Blood would wash and cleanse every stain until it is in the seas of God's forgetfulness, not to be remembered against me anymore."
Man, that is one low threshold you have chosen for the apology bar :D
As I recall, he didn't actually admit to what he did during his apology. Just admitted he had sinned. Trying to save his TV show ( cash flow) until the end. Then again, maybe I'm just the cynical type. Especially when it comes to people asking me to send them money.
LHC
Dude,
Jimmy Swaqgart! I remember flipping channels and getting sucked in listening to him before going WTF am I doing? That dude was a real pro!
Lying Williams is on the CMOH Foundation's Board of Directors: CMOHF (http://www.cmohfoundation.org/#!board-of-directors/cq1q) The last name on the list.
Pat
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/brian-williams%e2%80%99-katrina-reporting-under-scrutiny/ar-AA94FBs?ocid=iehp
Javadrinker
02-06-2015, 15:06
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/brian-williams%e2%80%99-katrina-reporting-under-scrutiny/ar-AA94FBs?ocid=iehp
ahh...the floating body in the high and dry French Quarter ...
Ret10Echo
02-06-2015, 15:38
From the Historical Reenacting Community...
:D
The former First Lady appears to have embellished her "under firedness" as well.
(Reuters) - Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton said on Tuesday she made a mistake when she claimed she had come under sniper fire during a trip to Bosnia in 1996 while she was first lady.
In a speech in Washington and in several interviews last week Clinton described how she and her daughter, Chelsea, ran for cover under hostile fire shortly after her plane landed in Tuzla, Bosnia.
Several news outlets disputed the claim and a video of the trip, showed Clinton walking from the plane, accompanied by her daughter. They were greeted by a young girl in a small ceremony on the tarmac and there was no sign of tension or any danger.
"I did make a mistake in talking about it, you know, the last time and recently," Clinton told reporters in Pennsylvania where she was campaigning before the state's April 22 primary. She said she had a "different memory" about the landing.
Source (http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/03/26/us-usa-politics-clinton-idUSN2540811420080326)
Radar Rider
02-06-2015, 17:58
The former First Lady appears to have embellished her "under firedness" as well.
Source (http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/03/26/us-usa-politics-clinton-idUSN2540811420080326)
But it's true, dontcha know!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHVEDq6RVXc
Team Sergeant
02-07-2015, 08:40
The former First Lady appears to have embellished her "under firedness" as well.
Source (http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/03/26/us-usa-politics-clinton-idUSN2540811420080326)
The clinton's possess no honor, no integrity no sense of respect for the Average American.
What the clinton's do have is legacy of having the second only US President in the history of the United States to be IMPEACHED.
And many would still like to see those idiots back in power.....
ddoering
02-07-2015, 13:34
The clinton's possess no honor, no integrity no sense of respect for the Average American.
What the clinton's do have is legacy of having the second only US President in the history of the United States to be IMPEACHED.
And many would still like to see those idiots back in power.....
Hillary will have a chance at being the third.
Looks like 'ol Lyin' Brian is stepping down for awhile.
Although this story says he sent in the note, I wonder if those "On High" at NBC told him to step down .... "for awhile" ???
Brian Williams Stepping Away From 'NBC Nightly News' Amid Scandal
Brian Williams is stepping away from NBC Nightly News for a number of days.
The anchor sent a note to the show's staff, announcing that Lester Holt is replacing him for an unspecified amount of time. The news comes as Williams is embroiled in a scandal surrounding his story about being a passenger in a helicopter that took fire in Iraq in 2003.
On Jan. 30, an NBC Nightly News clip was posted to Facebook in which Williams repeated a story he had told previously about having been in the helicopter that was hit and went down during the Iraq invasion. After the story was questioned, Williams apologized on Wednesday's Nightly News, saying that his helicopter was following the one that was hit.
"I feel terrible about making this mistake, especially since I found my OWN WRITING about the incident from back in '08, and I was indeed on the Chinook behind the bird that took the RPG in the tail housing just above the ramp," Williams wrote on Facebook.
In a memo to staff on Friday, NBC News Deborah Turness wrote that a team of people was working to "make sense" of the incident.
Williams' message about going on hiatus from the show can be seen, below.
"In the midst of a career spent covering and consuming news, it has become painfully apparent to me that I am presently too much a part of the news, due to my actions.
"As managing editor of NBC Nightly News, I have decided to take myself off of my daily broadcast for the next several days, and Lester Holt has kindly agreed to sit in for me to allow us to adequately deal with this issue. Upon my return, I will continue my career-long effort to be worthy of the trust of those who place their trust in us."
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/brian-williams-stepping-away-nbc-771102
Team Sergeant
02-07-2015, 17:55
He's becoming more famous than ever!
He is taking a short leave, as if this will all have blown over by the time he comes back.
Seems like the usual strategy is to check into rehab for a month or so, then return to the praise of fellow news readers for having the courage to confront personal problems, etc.
My wife, a retired VA psych nurse, tells me that there's no rehab possible for pathological liars.
Veteran Rage-O-Meter Pushed To ‘Elevated’ In Response To Brian Williams Scandal :D
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/02/veterans-brian-williams-rpg/
Richard
My wife, a retired VA psych nurse, tells me that there's no rehab possible for pathological liars.
So true and they seem to crave the spotlight - the type often ends up in Congress. :eek:
The Reaper
02-08-2015, 10:25
So true and they seem to crave the spotlight - the type often ends up in Congress. :eek:
Or as POTUS.
TR
Seems like the usual strategy is to check into rehab for a month or so, then return to the praise of fellow news readers for having the courage to confront personal problems, etc.
My wife, a retired VA psych nurse, tells me that there's no rehab possible for pathological liars.
If rehab for his disorder were to exist he could check in, graduate summa magna cum laude, receive the accolades of his peers for coming clean and being such an inspiration to all and still get the boot. His keeping his job will depend on his ratings, public opinion will be his undoing. John Q Public loves heroes and despises frauds and liars.
Team Sergeant
02-08-2015, 11:41
Seems like the usual strategy is to check into rehab for a month or so, then return to the praise of fellow news readers for having the courage to confront personal problems, etc.
My wife, a retired VA psych nurse, tells me that there's no rehab possible for pathological liars.
Brian Williams will do just fine, 50% of Americans love lying liberal cowards.
john kerry is a prime example.
Team Sergeant
02-09-2015, 10:17
I knew this was coming........
Brian Williams' snub of [MOH Recipients] no laughing matter:
Back in the fall of 2006, long before Brian Williams confessed to “conflating” his helicopter adventures over Iraq, Neal Santangelo knew the NBC news anchor was a fraud.
Santangelo, a Boston firefighter, former president of Local 718 and a proud veteran of the Navy submarine service, served on a committee that brought the Congressional Medal of Honor Society to Boston that year for its national convention.
About six months before the society’s gala banquet at the Convention Center, Williams agreed to serve as master of ceremonies.
But when he arrived on Saturday, Sept. 30, 2006, Williams told committee members Tom Lyons and Neal Santangelo that a “pressing engagement” back in New York prevented him from doing much more than greeting the audience of more than 1,000 guests … and leaving.
As disappointed as Lyons and Santangelo were, they still arranged for a police escort to rush Williams through the tunnel to catch his plane back to NYC.
After the banquet, as Santangelo, Lyons and other committee members relaxed in a lounge at the Colonnade Hotel, Neal Santangelo’s wife phoned from their room to say she knew why Brian Williams had to bail out of a Medal of Honor banquet.
She was watching the chiseled face of “NBC Nightly News” ham it up with Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler in a Weekend Update sketch on “Saturday Night Live.”
“I … cannot believe that you left us for this,” Neal Santangelo wrote in a letter to Williams a week after the banquet. “In an act of egotistical, blatant self-promotion, you deceived the (Medal of Honor) Recipients, declined to break bread with them and disrespected them.
“You placed comedy before courage … Your conduct was irreverent, insulting, incomprehensible and shameful. You may attempt to ‘spin’ the issue to support your position, but that will do nothing but bring you further shame in my eyes.”
Link: http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/columnists/peter_gelzinis/2015/02/gelzinis_brian_williams_snub_of_vets_no_laughing
Pat
Team Sergeant
02-10-2015, 14:56
There's nothing a liberal/progressive scumbag can do that surprises me, nothing. Liberals could not even spell the words Honor or Integrity.........
There's nothing a liberal/progressive scumbag can do that surprises me, nothing. Liberals could not even spell the words Honor or Integrity.........
If he told the truth, now that would surprise me.
tom kelly
02-10-2015, 19:37
I knew this was coming........
WHO IS THAT MASKED MAN????? TOM KELLY
tom kelly
02-10-2015, 19:52
THE BEST ARE IN THE WHITE HOUSE ON THE COMMUNITY ORGANIZER'S STAFF.....
Barry. WHAT BECAME OF YOU, YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY LIARS. Tom Kelly
multiple soldiers knew he was lying but just let him slide for some years.
Some did, but they were smelly military guys and Williams was a perfumed "journalist". Plus, he had at least one pilot on that aircraft that ran with the story also to enhance his own jock strap, er, résumé.
The camera crew knew, too. They had a nice cushy union gig running with a hot-shot correspondent, so do you think that they were going to rat him out?
Pat
Last hard class
02-11-2015, 20:06
John Stewart has announced he is leaving the Daily Show. Rumors are swirling that Brian Williams is on the short list to lead the fake news organization. One Comedy central executive was quoted as saying " Having read his resume, it's really no contest" :D
LHC
Lighthouse
02-11-2015, 20:25
He only misremember's....
For Years at a time...
In such a way it serves to benefit him...
:munchin
He only misremember's....
For Years at a time...
In such a way it serves to benefit him...
:munchinStay safe.
The Reaper
02-12-2015, 09:00
I learned today that he never graduated college. Not that that unto itself is a disqualifier or anything, but they showed footage of how back during an interview with George W. Bush, he was asking Bush about what books he read and acting surprised when Bush said he had read a book by Albert Camus, and a biography of Joe DiMaggio. Thing is, President Bush did graduate college and then later went back and got an MBA, and also graduated flight school to be a pilot.
Classic liberal assumption that they are smarter than everyone else.
TR
Team Sergeant
02-12-2015, 09:52
My guess would be Brian Williams will become the next Sec of State or head of DHS.
Suspended w/o pay for six months.
He's not being fired "due to his popularity and past work at the network."
From the link:
"It's basically a slap on the wrist. If you or I had done this, we'd have been fired immediately," said Mark Feldstein, a broadcast journalism professor at the University of Maryland in College Park, Md. "He's a franchise with a following, and I think that is a lot more important to corporate executives than mere sentimentality. I think they're trying to preserve the Williams brand that they've invested millions in."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/02/10/brian-williams-nbc-suspended/23200821/
This is part of the defense in depth. Delaying to see if this dies down and to gauge public opinion and the opinion of sponsors. If they ditch him it will be a little quieter, but the real hope is that this blows over and that they can put him back on the air.
Suspended w/o pay for six months.
This is part of the defense in depth. Delaying to see if this dies down and to gauge public opinion and the opinion of sponsors. If they ditch him it will be a little quieter, but the real hope is that this blows over and that they can put him back on the air.
What ABC said.
Also, this hurts Williams more than firing. He is still under contract and cannot do anything in the industry like find a job until the contract is severed or he is released from that clause - i.e. gets permission.
Team Sergeant
02-12-2015, 12:41
What ABC said.
Also, this hurts Williams more than firing. He is still under contract and cannot do anything in the industry like find a job until the contract is severed or he is released from that clause - i.e. gets permission.
Who cares about the truth? Liberals sure as hell don't.
I'm sure MSNBC would hire him in a heartbeat.
SF Hunter
02-12-2015, 13:07
Who cares about the truth? Liberals sure as hell don't.
"Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"
My guess would be Brian Williams will become the next Sec of State or head of DHS.
How about the next Press Secretary. :munchin
How about the next Press Secretary. :munchin
He certainly has the qualifications, good call!
Javadrinker
02-12-2015, 18:30
How about the next Press Secretary. :munchin
na .. the current one lies better;):munchin
I learned today that he never graduated college. Not that that unto itself is a disqualifier or anything, but they showed footage of how back during an interview with George W. Bush, he was asking Bush about what books he read and acting surprised when Bush said he had read a book by Albert Camus, and a biography of Joe DiMaggio. Thing is, President Bush did graduate college and then later went back and got an MBA, and also graduated flight school to be a pilot.Brian Williams is a fucking punk and goddamn liar!
Ted Kennedy would tell you same thing:eek:
Another thought: how on earth will he be able to credibly report on anything to do with the military after this?
Experience and he's now fully qualified to go work for Bretibat - or else he'll just have to get by on his VA allowance for PTSD. :rolleyes:
Richard
A "Lewinsky"...
Got "Grubered"...
...and now "pulling a Brian Williams."
Interesting times.
:munchin
Lighthouse
02-13-2015, 13:39
A Tale of Two Lies: Former SEAL TEAM 6 Operator Calls Brian Williams To The Carpet
Some of my veteran friends actually stuck up for Brian Williams in the beginning, some even wrote about it on this site, then it became too much and the weak Williams foundation collapsed in on itself in a heap of rubble. It’s one thing to embellish for the sake of story telling, but to flat-out lie about serious events in what appears to be a narcissist-fueled campaign of self-indulgence, when you are a trusted news correspondent is unacceptable, and a career ending activity.
Read more: http://sofrep.com/39921/brian-williams-lied-says-ex-seal-team-6-operator/#ixzz3ReiUAaIm
http://sofrep.com/39921/brian-williams-lied-says-ex-seal-team-6-operator/
While I would not attempt to defend Brian Williams regarding this issue, he was the only network news anchor to cover the passing of Colonel Howard on December 23, 2009, with a nice tribute at the end of the evening broadcast. When the media falls all over itself to report the deaths of anybody who has ever had a reality tv show, it was nice to see the passing of a true man of substance noted and covered by a network news outlet.
Team Sergeant
02-15-2015, 10:59
While I would not attempt to defend Brian Williams regarding this issue, he was the only network news anchor to cover the passing of Colonel Howard on December 23, 2009, with a nice tribute at the end of the evening broadcast. When the media falls all over itself to report the deaths of anybody who has ever had a reality tv show, it was nice to see the passing of a true man of substance noted and covered by a network news outlet.
You read what you're told to read, just ask the Teleprompter Reader of the United States of America.
Now that he's not working, he's had time to write.
:munchin
Now that he's not working, he's had time to write.
:munchin
That is hysterical!
tom kelly
02-16-2015, 17:57
Hillary got a bouquet of flowers from a little girl on the tarmac "during the enemy fire & shelling." AND A BIG PASS FROM THE LIBERAL PRESS. Brian Williams is getting fired. May be he could become Hillary's VP choice. UTTER BULLSHIT & the "Progressive Liberals" actually believe this fairy tale by 2 LIARS....Tom Kelly