View Full Version : MMR Vaccine??
OK,
This FOG needs some guidance..
Scenario:
I and my family, and my friends family, 80% of the world get their MMR and all the other vaccines available, on time, on budget, on their butts.
The parents down the street are avowed anti-vacciners and didn't get their kids shots.
Their kids get measles,,
We are all vaccinated,,
What's the problem???
This does not seem to be a problem that needs to be settled in a court of law??
It's called Darwinism,,
We give awards for the annul winners,,
and it is very successful.
Did I miss something??
Confused :munchin
Doc,
I do not disagree with your points. There are vast numbers of ilinformed & uninformed peoples out there,, Many are current and future Darwin Award Winners..
I am more interested in why some, all, many think this activity has to be legislated.
If mandatory vaccinations are law,
Do we jail people that refuse to sign organ donor cards?
Is someone rejecting a hospitals DNR also a felon?
Does the person who prefers holistic medicine for their cancer belong in jail?
If it's not obvious, I tend to be in the Libertarian boat,, on certain subjects..
Mandatory legislation of medicine is one such topic..
I have a friend who teaches high school physics. The parents of one of his students recently protested the fact that their son was being taught the theory of gravity, which they didn't believe in.
You have got to be shitting! You can observe that with your own eyes.
You have got to be shitting! You can observe that with your own eyes.
The most disgusting part of that is the fact that that same person gets to vote.
PedOncoDoc
02-04-2015, 08:58
Doc,
I do not disagree with your points. There are vast numbers of ilinformed & uninformed peoples out there,, Many are current and future Darwin Award Winners..
I am more interested in why some, all, many think this activity has to be legislated.
If mandatory vaccinations are law,
Do we jail people that refuse to sign organ donor cards?
Is someone rejecting a hospitals DNR also a felon?
Does the person who prefers holistic medicine for their cancer belong in jail?
If it's not obvious, I tend to be in the Libertarian boat,, on certain subjects..
Mandatory legislation of medicine is one such topic..
This is an issue near and dear to my heart. As a children's cancer and bone marrow transplantation specialist, I have patients with profoundly compromised immune systems that cannot receive their vaccines and would likely have extremely severe (possibly fatal) complications from infection from what is by-and-large a completely preventable disease.
I am dreading the day one of my patients - who relies solely on herd immunity (infection prevention through mass vaccination to protect the few who cannot receive or respond to a vaccine) - dies as the result of exposure to a vaccine-preventable infection from the child of an anti-vaxxer. I would push hard for manslaughter charges against the family that did not choose to vaccinate their child, along with a massive civil lawsuit. If it came out that they knew their non-vaccinated child was exposed to measles or another vaccine-preventable infection and did not self-impose quarantine, one could reasonably push for additional criminal charges.
80% of all children who are diagnosed with cancer will be long-term survivors - it would be a shame for some child to go through chemotherapy, radiation and/or immunotherapy only to die because someone refuses to vaccinate their child.
Rant off.
mark46th
02-04-2015, 09:11
Most of the people on this board aren't old enough to remember Polio. You have never gone to school with a child who had to wear a leg brace(s), walk with crutches or had a withered arm(s). And these are the ones that lived. Jonas Salk should be a Saint.
I have patients with profoundly compromised immune systems that cannot receive their vaccines and would likely have extremely severe (possibly fatal) complications from infection from what is by-and-large a completely preventable disease...
80% of all children who are diagnosed with cancer will be long-term survivors - it would be a shame for some child to go through chemotherapy, radiation and/or immunotherapy only to die because someone refuses to vaccinate their child.
Rant off.
As a rabid defender of individual liberty and opposer of government encroachment, I view this issue as one of public heath. We, as a civilization, have taken great steps to rid the world of many crippling diseases. Those who cannot be vaccinated rely on the rest of us to keep the diseases at bay.
Team Sergeant
02-04-2015, 10:14
Every doctor I know, (and I know quite a few) says get your vaccines.
Every hollywood celebrity, high school drop out parents, and many liberals say not to get the vaccines.
I just wish these folks were alive when polio, typhoid was around......
The same folks that think autism is caused by vaccines are the same morons that voted for the Squatter in the White House, twice.
Let the morons die.......
FWIW - as a school administrator - the only anti-vaccine groups I ever had to deal with were either against it on the basis of religious beliefs in regards to medical practices or didn't have the money to pay for them.
Those who couldn't afford them were easily resolved by referring them to the county health department where provisions were in place for them to receive their vaccinations; the personal religious belief issue(s) were much more problematic to deal with.
Richard
PedOncoDoc
02-04-2015, 11:01
FWIW - as a school administrator - the only anti-vaccine groups I ever had to deal with were either against it on the basis of religious beliefs in regards to medical practices or didn't have the money to pay for them.
Those who couldn't afford them were easily resolved by referring them to the county health department where provisions were in place for them to receive their vaccinations; the personal religious belief issue(s) were much more problematic to deal with.
Richard
From my experience, anti-vaccine groups coach people to cite religious beliefs as a reason to refuse vaccination because it is considered legal to do so. It doesn't have anything to do with religion for a VAST majority of folks.
Ever deal with a devout Christian scientist family? I hope you never have to experience a CS vs .Gov (PHS, CPS, Ed) feud over a child's health care. Good luck.
Richard
FWIW...<<from Bloomberg Politics (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-02-04/why-do-republicans-have-such-a-hard-time-with-vaccines-)>>
Why Do Republicans Have Such a Hard Time With Vaccines?
Feb 4, 2015 2:45 AM PST
Is mistrust of government fueling the party's vaccine skepticism?
Lisa Lerer
When New Jersey Governor Chris Christie headed to London this week, his goal was to shore up his foreign policy credentials with friendly visit to America's strongest ally. Instead, he ended up entangling his party in an emotionally-fraught battle back home.
Christie, Kentucky Senator Rand Paul, and the rest of the Republican presidential field have spent much of the past few days clarifying their positions on mandatory vaccination—a long-established tenant of public health that been met with skepticism by an unusual coalition of crunchy liberals, Christian conservatives, and anti-government libertarians.
While neither party has a lock on anti-vaccine sentiment, the GOP's suspicion of government, broadly, and of science, in general, is particularly strong, which explains why Republican candidates often find themselves struggling to strike a balance between medical evidence and conservative mistrust. It's a conflict that's played out for years over climate change, as Republicans try to please their base while fending off mockery for disputing long-established evidence that human activity contributes to rising temperatures. And it flared up again last year amid fears of an Ebola outbreak when doctors criticized Republicans, including Christie, for calling for stringent quarantines.
“It’s more important what you think as a parent than what you think as a public official.” Governor Chris Christie
There are signs that the vaccination issue could morph into the same kind of Republican litmus test—a prospect that many in the party quickly tried to tamp down with strong statements in support of immunization. Still, six years ago, an equal percentage of Democrats and Republicans backed requiring vaccines for children. When asked again last week, Democratic support held at 71 percent, while Republican and independents fell to 65 percent.
In 2012, GOP primary rivals attacked then-Texas Governor Rick Perry for becoming the first governor in the country to mandate that sixth-grade girls be vaccinated against human papillomavirus or HPV. Former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum derided Perry's executive order as the "heavy hand of government" and Minnesota Representative Michele Bachmann said the virus could cause "mental retardation." Though her claim is untrue, Perry apologized for his action. "If I had it to do over again, I would have done it differently,” he said.
As far as political issues go, HPV was close to a perfect political storm for Republicans: a combination of suspicions of executive abuse, wariness of sex education, and vaccinations. What's clear, though, from the sociological research about vaccination rates more generally is that anti-vaccination parents stick together. Fueled in part by discredited claims linking childhood shots to autism, they cluster in certain geographic areas like the staunchly Democratic San Francisco Bay Area, fitting the stereotype of ecologically-minded liberals worried about polluting their children's bodies. But that's not the situation nationwide, as a map from the Center for Disease Control shows. High concentrations of anti-vaxxers are also found in more conservative states like Alaska and Idaho, suggesting that opposing immunization is a shared belief among left-leaning circles, Tea Party backers, and conservatives alike.
For clues as how these clusters get started, look to Scandinavia. A 2013 study in the Scandinavian Journal of Public Health suggests vaccine opponents may simply have trust issues. Swedish political scientist Bjorn Ronnerstrand looked at the differences between Swedes who were vaccinated against the H1N1 virus in 2009 and those who opted out, controlling for age, gender, education, health, and level of personal concern about an outbreak. Those who got vaccinated, he found, had higher levels of faith in both the Swedish healthcare system and society in general. A larger survey of H1N1 research conducted by the Department of Sociology at the University of Geneva found similar trends.
"Many Swedes trusted the way their national authorities handled the pandemic, which led to the highest vaccination rate in Europe," wrote the authors. "By contrast, the French population trusted their authorities less and the vaccination rates remained low."
American trust in government among the entire population is at a record low, but it's particularly down among Republicans. In a 2013 survey conducted by the Pew Research Center, nearly 3 in 10 Democrats said they could trust the government, compared to just 10 percent of Republicans.
For libertarians, the idea of mandatory vaccination conflicts with a philosophy of limited government intervention. There's also some level of correlation between anti-vaccination and homeschoolers, in part because of immunization requirements for public school. In 2008, Christian home-school advocates helped boost former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee to victory in Iowa and emerged again four years later to aid former Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum.
For a crowded field of Republican wanna-be presidents, who are fighting for every possible pocket of votes, wooing anti-vaccinators matters—particularly in the early primary state of Iowa. That dynamic certainly helps explain Kentucky Senator Rand Paul's strictly libertarian remarks on the subject and even his endorsement of the thoroughly disproven belief that vaccines cause autism. “I’ve heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines,” he said on CNBC on Monday night.
And it just might explain Christie's strangely equivocal remarks on the subject in London on Monday. “It’s more important what you think as a parent than what you think as a public official,” he declared. “I also understand that parents need to have some measure of choice in things as well. So that’s the balance that the government has to decide.”
But as with many issues in presidential politics, what lights up voters in a Republican primary can easily burn in a general. Within hours of his remarks, Christie's office quickly walked back them back.
"To be clear: The governor believes vaccines are an important public health protection and with a disease like measles there is no question kids should be vaccinated," a statement from the governor's office said. "At the same time different states require different degrees of vaccination, which is why he was calling for balance in which ones government should mandate."
Paul went a step further, taking a New York Times reporter with him when he went to get a booster shot for Hepatitis A from a Capitol Hill doctor.
“It just annoys me that I’m being characterized as someone who’s against vaccines,” Paul told the Times.
“There’s 400 headlines now that say ‘Paul says vaccines cause mental disorders,'” he added. “That’s not what I said. I said I’ve heard of people who’ve had vaccines and they see a temporal association and they believe that.”
That message was echoed by a number of candidates on Tuesday, showing that Republicans are hoping to take vaccines off the table as a presidential issue. "Children should be fully vaccinated," Florida Senator Marco Rubio told reporters at the U.S. Capitol. "Why would we go backwards?"
But for Christie, Rubio, and the rest of the Republican field, the problem may be that Democrats—and more importantly likely nominee Hillary Clinton—seem to have a very different plan in mind.
Also, http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/vilifying-vaccines
MOO, casting the anti vaccination movement as primarily liberal hogwash is not a good position politically. The GOP has its own issues with science and scientific inquiry. YMMV.
Streck-Fu
02-04-2015, 11:34
Anecdotally, the only people I know that are anti-vaccine believe it causes development issues in children like Autism. And, for those that I know how they voted, all went Democrat.
I guess Liberals want to give the anti-science Republicans a run for their money....
Javadrinker
02-04-2015, 12:09
First, it is a shame that 2 Rep. politicos opened their mouths to speak on the vaccinate or not issue before engaging their brains , and one of them a Dr.
That being said, if you look at where the most cases of this latest outbreak is occurring it is in the bastions of the left, and as one researcher put it "look where there is a whole foods and draw a circle around it."
I am one that thinks there should be much less government in our lives, but this is clearly a public health issue, and I see that like I see rights; my own rights END where your rights BEGIN; my rights as a parent to not vaccinate my child end when my child goes in contact with other children. I've been vaccinated against everything in the world it seems like and so have my children and grandchildren.
Darwinism is alive and very well.
First, it is a shame that 2 Rep. politicos opened their mouths to speak on the vaccinate or not issue before engaging their brains , and one of them a Dr.
That being said, if you look at where the most cases of this latest outbreak is occurring it is in the bastions of the left, and as one researcher put it "look where there is a whole foods and draw a circle around it."
I am one that thinks there should be much less government in our lives, but this is clearly a public health issue, and I see that like I see rights; my own rights END where your rights BEGIN; my rights as a parent to not vaccinate my child end when my child goes in contact with other children. I've been vaccinated against everything in the world it seems like and so have my children and grandchildren.
Darwinism is alive and very well.
This. What most people tend to forget is that attached to "Rights" is another "r" word - Responsibility. In this case, as PedOncoDoc made abundantly clear, your choices can have potentially lethal consequences for others.
JJ, this goes back to your original question of, "Their kids get measles,,
We are all vaccinated,, What's the problem???"
As I understand it, with regard to measles, there are 4 groups of people:
1. MMR Vaccine results in immunity (most of us)
2. Around 3% of fully vaccinated children don't develop a lasting immunity, and are susceptible to infection with the virus.
3. The un-vaccinated (those under 12 months of age)
4. Those who are severely imuno-compromised (as PedOncoDoc pointed out)
It is for these last three groups that everyone should be vaccinated. The goal, then is to reach a Herd Immunity level (~85-90% of population successfully vaccinated) to protect those 3 groups.
A choice not to vaccinate has much farther reaching consequences than just your child.
Further reading, if desired:
Written by a pediatrician (http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/02/open-letter-parent-unvaccinated-child-measles-exposure)
For the visual learner (there are 16 in the album-view them all) (http://imgur.com/a/ybBUJ)
Javadrinker
02-04-2015, 13:00
What most people tend to forget is that attached to "Rights" is another "r" word - Responsibility. In this case, as PedOncoDoc made abundantly clear, your choices can have potentially lethal consequences for others.
Thank you for adding that other "r" word.
Team Sergeant
02-04-2015, 15:49
FWIW...<<from Bloomberg Politics (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-02-04/why-do-republicans-have-such-a-hard-time-with-vaccines-)>>
Also, http://www.bloombergview.com/quicktake/vilifying-vaccines
MOO, casting the anti vaccination movement as primarily liberal hogwash is not a good position politically. The GOP has its own issues with science and scientific inquiry. YMMV.
Because it is a primarily liberal issue. Christie and a handful of others are just as stupid as many of the liberals.
I do find it amusing that you use a extremely left-wing article to demonstrate your point......
I'm guessing that you believe the UAW is not rigging the union vote either......
Workers try to boot union for fourth time after ‘rigged’ election
By Bill McMorris
·Published February 04, 2015
·Washington Free Beacon
Workers in Alabama are staging a fourth attempt to kick the United Auto Workers (UAW) out of their plant following claims that stuffed ballot boxes derailed their last vote.
Employees at the NTN-Bower Corporation, a ball bearings manufacturer, have unsuccessfully tried to boot the labor giant out of their factory for two years.
Workers voted to decertify the UAW in an earlier election, but an Obama-appointed National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) panel threw out the election.
Another election was held in January of this year. The UAW prevailed, but it was later revealed that 148 ballots were cast—eight more than the entire workforce. Employees convinced the NLRB to throw out those results with the help of the National Right to Work Foundation.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/04/workers-try-to-boot-union-for-fourth-time-after-rigged-election/?intcmp=latestnews
Trapper John
02-04-2015, 16:34
OK,
This FOG needs some guidance..
Scenario:
I and my family, and my friends family, 80% of the world get their MMR and all the other vaccines available, on time, on budget, on their butts.
The parents down the street are avowed anti-vacciners and didn't get their kids shots.
Their kids get measles,,
We are all vaccinated,,
What's the problem???
This does not seem to be a problem that needs to be settled in a court of law??
It's called Darwinism,,
We give awards for the annul winners,,
and it is very successful.
Did I miss something??
Confused :munchin
JJ-
It's not that simple and simplifying this issue to the level of individual liberty or darwinism is misguided and even dangerous. IIRC herd immunity requires 95+% of a population (herd) to protect the other 5%. The concern is that for some preventable diseases (MMR for example) that percentage has dropped below the 95% threshold. Hence, Pedonddoc's very valid concern for his patients.
As a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian I am the first to defend every persons right to self determination. But there are limits and those limits are when my exercise of my right endangers my neighbor. It's not always about me. I think this is a clear public health issue and not a political one. So you can believe that vaccines cause autism or whatever, the facts are that they don't. Hold that belief if you wish but get your vaccines. you simply do not have the right to put Pedondoc's patients at risk!
And that's all I got to say about that! :D
PS: JJ my use of the word you is in the collective. Just for clarity, Bro.:)
Because it is a primarily liberal issue. Christie and a handful of others are just as stupid as many of the liberals.
[QUOTE=Team Sergeant;574166]I do find it amusing that you use a extremely left-wing article to demonstrate your point.Then here's a similar story from the Wall Street Journal on line edition <<LINK (http://www.wsj.com/articles/top-republicans-support-vaccination-but-skeptical-of-federal-mandate-1422998146)>>.
I'm guessing that you believe the UAW is not rigging the union vote either.I have articulated my views on unions many times on this BB. A handful of members of this BB also have to endure my occassional ranting about union workers on Facebook and Twitter.
IRT the politicization of public policy issues, my position today is the same as it has been for years. The first political party that finds a way to step out of its own echo chamber and pattern of reflexive accusations/denials and to spend more time talking about solutions is going to be the party that shapes American policies and politics for generations to come.
mark46th
02-04-2015, 18:00
"IRT the politicization of public policy issues, my position today is the same as it has been for years. The first political party that finds a way to step out of its own echo chamber and pattern of reflexive accusations/denials and to spend more time talking about solutions is going to be the party that shapes American policies and politics for generations to come." Sigaba
You have a lot more faith in the American Public than I do. It becomes less capable of discerning BS every minute.
Red Flag 1
02-04-2015, 21:47
I understand the rant and share your feelings.
JJ-
As a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian I am the first to defend every persons right to self determination. But there are limits and those limits are when my exercise of my right endangers my neighbor. It's not always about me. I think this is a clear public health issue and not a political one. So you can believe that vaccines cause autism or whatever, the facts are that they don't. Hold that belief if you wish but get your vaccines. you simply do not have the right to put Pedondoc's patients at risk!
And that's all I got to say about that! :D
PS: JJ my use of the word you is in the collective. Just for clarity, Bro.:)
I stand informed,
will correct my view,
thanks to all the medical pro's for their informed opinions,
even FOG's need some re-education..
The government brings some of this on itself by politicizing everything. Do you trust the CDC when they tell you something not to have injected a political stance into it? I don't.
Trapper John
02-05-2015, 14:53
The government brings some of this on itself by politicizing everything. Do you trust the CDC when they tell you something not to have injected a political stance into it? I don't.
Some days (more of them in recent years) I have that cynical view too, Sinjefe, and with good reason. However, on balance I agree with Sigaba's POV and he is correct that the party that can step outside of its ideological echo chamber will set the agenda.
As to John Q Public, there really is something to the notion of collective wisdom. A case in point would be a jury trial - the 12 jurors, I think on balance, get it right even when every one of them individually may be a pin-head.
The current challenge is to create a rational message that rises above the noise.
FlagDayNCO
02-18-2015, 07:56
My wife and I have had a few of the non-vaxers around us, for a very short period. Once we determined their position, we politely faded away.
One of my boys, is Autistic and I can vouch that this was not through vaccinations. The middle boy of three, the signs that something was amiss was detected when he was forming in the womb. The advances in medicine and science are incredible, and the advances I witnessed with the ability for the Docs to detect something, just during the time span for my three sons over six years, is amazing.
My middle boy showed the signs or symptons of Autism and we notified the doctors. Through the efforts of the medical and teaching profession here in Central Bucks, he has made great strides. No medications, but we have agreed to allow the medical professionals to document his journey, as I believe it will help foster medical opinion of what may have led to his advances.
From the other children I have seen, as well as the many parents I have met, there appear to be no two children alike. Yet, there are a few parents that are absolute in their cause to blame the pharmaceutical companies for their child's Autism. With so many variables, they stand firm. Their children are regularly sick and they do not want the vaccinations.
Okay, good for you. My wife and I long ago decided to keep those parents at a distance, and they have learned to stay away from us.
Lighthouse
02-18-2015, 11:07
Disinformation agents like Alex Jones and Natural News promote things like this. A former friend of mine (who was super anti government but lived off the system IRONY!!!) sent me this article http://www.naturalnews.com/036255_MMR_autism_court_case.html. So I pry into this article and see that isn't a single comment on it. Not one fellow tin foiler even gave an atta boy? I decide to take it one step further and googled Italian court ruling without the natural news precursor and got this article.http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/08/09/court-rulings-dont-confirm-autism-vaccine-link/
I shared this with my former friend and his tin foil crew and I was accussed of being a government tool.
I'm at awe sometimes at all the information we have available to us these days and people still rather listen to the people screaming the loudest without question or evidence yet us "government tools" are in the wrong. Interesting times..:munchin
craigepo
02-18-2015, 13:28
As a guy who studies the Bible quite often, I have never found a writing therein that would hold that a vaccination is some type of sin. What am I missing? Does someone know something contrary?
Lighthouse
02-18-2015, 16:08
The force of argument delivery does seem to have weight when it comes to this matter, its true, which is a poor reason to take anyone seriously.
Perhaps this argument form appears to be sound when combined with Shifting the Burden of Proof, another fallacy used in this pointless debate. :confused:
Indeed. You forgot to mention the part whereas being offended also automatically makes you wrong. :rolleyes:
I do agree with the anti's however allowing government to mandate it will create a slippery slope. There needs to be a focus on repealing laws. Americans are unknowingly committing 5 felonies a day on average. We have too many laws and mandates.
I'm not a fan of government (especially the current) doing anything except for authorizing force against muslim scum.