PDA

View Full Version : Breathing and pulse


Martin
12-19-2004, 11:10
As you are probably aware, you can control your pulse by breathing and concentration.

If you adjust your breathing and concentrate on slowing down your pulse after a workout or sprint, is that bad for muscle recovery?

I'm thinking of this because of the decreased amount of oxygen and removal of CO2 and other waste or byproducts.

Thank you in advance.

ccrn
12-19-2004, 12:18
As you are probably aware, you can control your pulse by breathing and concentration.

If you adjust your breathing and concentrate on slowing down your pulse after a workout or sprint, is that bad for muscle recovery?

I'm thinking of this because of the decreased amount of oxygen and removal of CO2 and other waste or byproducts.

Thank you in advance.


Why would you even bother?

There are exercise physiology journals that address many facets of exercise and literally hills of research done on runners. When I get home I can give you some links.

From my own experience running a warm down is alawys in order, at least a walk for ten minutes and many will recommend a jog so I would think lowering your HR quickly after a workout would be counter productive.

Also, protein replacement during the two hour window right after a strenuous workout is crucial if you want to avoid soreness and even more important tissue damage.

Considering hear rate, VOmax and lactate threshold my goal is to keep my HR up as long as possible then bring it down slowly-

Martin
12-19-2004, 12:29
Considering hear rate, VOmax and lactate threshold my goal is to keep my HR up as long as possible then bring it down slowly-

I was thinking of when doing intervals or fartlek. I understand now that I shouldn't bother.

Thank you.

I'd appreciate the links though.

Martin
12-19-2004, 12:47
I was thinking of when doing intervals or fartlek. I understand now that I shouldn't bother.

Thank you.

I'd appreciate the links though.

Oh hell, bring on the links and we'll see if they touch upon it. Otherwise I'd like to U-turn and be more specific:

The idea was that the lowering of pulse between sets or sprints could be good simply because it tells the body to be calmer at heavier loads. After training this would translate into raising the threshold and lowering of time needed for recovery.

The downside I was thinking of was if it would limit the oxygen supply and thus impair overall performance, thus recovery. The muscles would become exhausted because they would not be "fed" enough.

ccrn
12-19-2004, 19:42
Research indicates that intervals of 600m and up are best. 400 is easier but doesnt work VOmax as well.

From the reading Ive done rest between intervals should be 50-90%. So if your interval takes 6:00 cool down for 3:00-5:30 then go again.

I also like hills. I'll find one 300-400m. Sprint up it then walk back down for a cool down.

I dont like fartlek myself I dont know why. Most everyone I know does them.

Youre on the right track though I think if you focus on your VOmax that in itself will increase your threshold for work.

Depending on how far you want to run you might get into lactate training. This is best for half and full marathon. For any less youwant to focus on VOmax.

jap.physiology.org

www.acsm-msse.com

www.sportsmedicine.com

www.kicksports.com (cool running)

The Cool Running forums might be the most useful. The others are a wealth of info but are time consuming. I have more if you want. I also recommend Pete Pfitzinger's "Road Racing for Serious Runners"-

jatx
12-19-2004, 20:43
CCRN, how would you suggest that someone focus on VO2 Max? It is not observable at home or during a workout, and is not a frequently administered test for most athletes. Frankly, the information isn't even all that useful outside of competitive sports. I'm not sure what you mean here.

Martin, I assume that you are training with a heart rate monitor at all times? IMHO, it makes no sense to run complex interval workouts without one, as there is no other way to get an accurate feel for the direct linkage between fine gradations of effort and heart rate. And until you get the feel for that, there is no way to do productive training just below your anaerobic threshold.

In any case, I highly recommend a book by my former coach, Rob Sleamaker: SERIOUS Training for Endurance Athletes. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873226445/qid=1103514920/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-6846169-2235820?v=glance&s=books

Good luck! :lifter

Martin
12-20-2004, 02:04
Good info, guys! I appreciate it.

Martin, I assume that you are training with a heart rate monitor at all times?

No, but I intend to get one. Does the quality vary much according to price range? Any particular features that are helpful?

I was going to write here that I'd check out the heart beat ranges for different types of work, i.e. aerobic/anaerobic, though that should be a no-go, since the rate will rise in both cases according to time and effort.

Martin

jatx
12-20-2004, 08:27
Martin,

Your best bet is to buy a Polar. Nike, Timex, etc. all have their own offerings, but Polar has always been the innovator in the space. They have a great website, too, that will recommend several models to you based on likely usage. www.polar.fi

You'll want one with high and low alarms to keep you in the proper HR range on long endurance workouts. Aside from that, there are many bells and whistles that are nice to have (interval timers, download capability, compass, altimeter, etc ad nauseam) that can push the price over $300, but if you wait until after Christmas you should be able to get a good basic model for under $100.

Buy Sleamaker's book and you'll learn more than you ever wanted to know about HR ranges for specific workout types (and seasons). Try to find someone that can hook you up with a maximum heart rate test - I typically found that I could get someone in the cardio lab at the local hospital to do one for free after hours just for novelty value. Don't try to do one on your own just by jumping on the treadmill and going - there's a good chance you'll gray out at the end and you need someone spotting you.

It's important to have as a baseline, though, as the popular formulas for estimating MHR can be way off. The most frequently cited is to subtract your age from 220, but some years back that would have suggested mine was about 200. I got my HR up to 219 on the treadmill, so using 200 as my max would have meant I was doing all of my workouts way to easy.

ccrn
12-20-2004, 11:21
CCRN, how would you suggest that someone focus on VO2 Max? It is not observable at home or during a workout, and is not a frequently administered test for most athletes. Frankly, the information isn't even all that useful outside of competitive sports. I'm not sure what you mean here.

You say that VOmax is not observable during a workout then go on to tout heat rate monitors and training.

I dissagree with you. Targets like VOmax and LT are identifiable with little training even for an amateur such as myself. Some research that has been done with amature runners demonstrates they were able to identify VOmax and LT with HR monitors then subsequently without them fairly easily.

I go with 90% of my 1600m max heart rate. That will change with experience I'm sure. Ironically I run less hard than I used to with better results (does avoiding injuries sound useful?).

I also disagree that VOmax and LT training isnt useful outside of competitive sports. It has helped me tremendously in my persuit of better run times both at 2 miles and 6.2 miles (10K). Last time I checked APFT for SF was fairly competitive-

BTW nice plug for your coach

jatx
12-20-2004, 12:01
VO2 Max is the maximum amount of oxygen a person can utilize
relative to body weight. You measure it on a treadmill with a tube in your mouth and a clip on your nose. The relevant metric is kilograms per minute of oxygen uptake. No athlete, professional or otherwise, can monitor their effort relative to VO2 Max during a workout outside of the lab.

What is your method of measuring kilograms per minute of oxygen intake relative to VO2 Max during a workout?

When I was last at the US Olympic Training Center in '93, they readily admitted that they administer the test primarily to ascertain potential. It isn't really an actionable number, and most people don't have access to the test. Which is why I recommended getting your MHR tested prior to beginning serious interval work.

However, I never said that there is no reason to train at or near your lactate threshold, which I assume you're using interchangably with what I'm calling "anaerobic threshold." But you must do so very carefully and in the context of a well-planned program. You're just wasting your time and asking for injury, over-training or worse if you try to go out and do it without a HRM. Effective interval work like this requires operating in a narrow 5-8 bpm band, which most people cannot adhere to without direct feedback from a HRM. Go over the line into your anaerobic phase and you lose the training effect. The whole point is to push it right up to the red line and learn how to keep it there for a sustained period without blowing up.

IMHO, though, the real value of a HR monitor is its ability to focus you on the right level of effort during longer endurance workouts. Few people get this right on their own.

NousDefionsDoc
12-20-2004, 12:45
What the hell are you guys talking about? I can't tell if this should be here or not.

jatx
12-20-2004, 13:37
NDD, we're just having a friendly disagreement about the best way to do aerobic conditioning. :D

At least you know we're doing it! :lifter

ccrn
12-20-2004, 17:54
You are correct VOmax and true max HR cannot be precisely measured outside of the lab.

However many feel it can be accurately estimated.

In my case I have expermented with a few different formulas including the infamous 220-age, which didnt quite do it for me. Currently I am using 90% of my max HR for my 1600m. If I ran any harder or longer I would be in LT or anaerobic I am convinced. Yes I use a HR monitor.

My original point, rather than argue with you, is that I dont think it benificial to focus on lowering ones HR between intervals via meditative techniques. Rather I would recommend, based on my experience, to cool down for a specific percentage of the interval itself.

Fartlek would be no different only that you run only at a lower pace than the faster part rather than stop and intentionally lower your HR.. Stew Smith uses line poles to measure his fartlek. Find your own that works for you. Theres an abundance of material avaliable to learn from or fine tune with.

Respectfully, I believe this belongs here as it does pertain to physical training-

edit (clarity)