View Full Version : 18-BRAVO Training section
Okay I'd like to start a Thread just targeting 18 Bravos. 18F's have a Booklist, so I think Bravos needed their own. Since the Bravos are the ones that will be the ones to come up with training plans for the ODA downrange, CNT's, JCET's or home station.
I know we have many big heads here so I would say keep it for weapons and training.
WHY you may ask? Because, I have been on ODAs where the Bravo's didn't know why we did shooting drills for. They didn't understand the fundamentals of shooting a (Emplace whatever here). Why we did 6", 4" or 2" DOTS. Why did you line up three Bull (E-Types) Targets side by side and stand 10 Meters from them and do this series of firing strings. Didn't have targets for lasers, optics, machine guns, etc. Understand why you have a short, medium and long barrels. Why we have a ACOG, ELCAN, Thermal sight scope, and anything else. "No need to bring that, I don't know how to XXYYZZ."
That my friends is the reason behind this thread. To provide Bravos the tools, tradecraft and KNOWLEDGE for understanding and knowing where to go get the knowledge for improving their own personal shooting TTPs. But moreover, HOW TO IMROVE their ODAs shooting skillsets and improve their ODA training schedules and plans. Knowledge on things that you as a current or former 18-Bravo wish someone had told me (You).
Also how to make their ODA better trainers to other and overseas. Keep in mind for the 18-Series, everyone is a Small Unit Tactics (SUT) Master, you all did it in SFQC. It’s not just the 18-Bravos that should be teaching this. Also everyone on the ODA should be able to train a Company level with one or two other ODA Members. SO you need to educate yourself on weapons and fundamentals of shooting even if you never been to a SFAUCC or SFARTEATC.
Lastly 18-Series you MUST know more than just your MOS. Special Forces can be broken down into 3 to 4 man split teams, you do remember that from the SFQC? Know more than just your own MOS!!
First off I would say an ODA should be getting these on their first CNT or JCET. Great books by three great Warriors.
Green Eyes & Black Rifles: Warriors Guide to the Combat Carbine (http://smile.amazon.com/dp/0615166547/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3IK0KEEJEQIJG&coliid=I1SG50DK87PF23)
Stay in the Fight!! Warriors Guide to the Combat Pistol (http://smile.amazon.com/Fight-Warriors-Guide-Combat-Pistol/dp/0615428363/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y)
T.A.P.S. : Tactical Application of Practical Shooting (http://smile.amazon.com/T-A-P-S-Tactical-Application-Practical-Shooting/dp/1440109591/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_z)
For me this T.A.P.S is one AWESOME toilet book that every SF NCO should have. It covers down of the simple reasons for weapons shooting training of tactical applications for shooting to people of all levels of marksmanship, from basic level soldiers to experience level shooters.
First Series of 25M Zero Targets
This is just a stand 25 Meter target. Great to have in an draft email just in case for downrange.
Here are one that were originally for the SOFMOD Kits. But with Conventional having the same sights for they are now universal. :)
Part 1 for 10-Meter M4/M16 Targets for various optics, lights and lasers for typically "Conventional" non M4 MWS (Modular Weapon System) with a Picatinny rails system.
Part 2 for 10-Meter M4/M16 Targets for various optics, lights and lasers for typically "Conventional" non M4 MWS (Modular Weapon System) with a Picatinny rails system.
Here are Target Boards for Various Machine Guns.
I have other Handguns targets but just can't find them now. Also this isn't the best thing going. But it helps for some people.
Now this not the best thing going, but for a simple understanding of what is going on with a Joe shooting this works.
Also it works for any rifle, as far as I can tell.
Well, IMHO, it's just not the engagement of technical, upper edge weapons/systems. As we all know it's the employment of said weapons that takes some know-how. Also, base defense plans, SUT, care and maintenance as previously stated etc, etc.
We need to teach the LBG's 7-8 (or whatever FM now a days stuff).
When I went through PH1 in 82, we did "SF Patrolling" techniques, unique to an ODA, but when down range, conventional stuff for them.
There is a delineation of said tactics...one for us, one for them...
Well, IMHO, it's just not the engagement of technical, upper edge weapons/systems. As we all know it's the employment of said weapons that takes some know-how. Also, base defense plans, SUT, care and maintenance as previously stated etc, etc.
We need to teach the LBG's 7-8 (or whatever FM now a days stuff).
When I went through PH1 in 82, we did "SF Patrolling" techniques, unique to an ODA, but when down range, conventional stuff for them.
There is a delineation of said tactics...one for us, one for them...
I agree, 100%. It's not just about know how to do a functions check on a weapon, knowing 7 principles of patrolling, or understand the fundamentals of shooting. It's know all of your MOS and then the others on your ODA in reality (IMHO).
I personally feel that USASFC needs to have the Groups set up POIs that the Groups send to USASOC to have them "blessed" off on by USASOC FDO. Then USASOC FDO or USASFC uploads them onto SIPR in a Group Folders that only that Group can get too. Each Group teaches their own basic style of say SUT, CQB, ETC to their AOR. This is so we don't have ODAs out there teaching standard 7-8 TTPs. We need each Group teaching different TTPs on every SUT, CQB, MFF, WIC. Why, cross pollination and training indicators between different Groups and countries. Also I'll just say this, you will not have some ODA teaching US AMOUT or SFAUCC TTPs to foreign nations forces.
I'll say this, I never let 18-Bravos teach 3 to 5 second rushes. I said, let them do what they want. I looked at it this way, I want a target if they table ever change and we are on the other end of the rifle. Just saying.
I would always try to beat this into guys heads when they came to me for advice for going on a PDSS for a JCET or CNT. "Hey what should I be looking for?" May advice was this.
You are going there for the Dept of State to make that Countries SOF Unit, Police Force, Counter Border Patrol Unit, Whatever units better. YOU ARE not teaching an American Unit. So don't think like an American. Find out what THEIR Standards are for weapons qualification, what the leadership considers or expects for their men to be able to do for CQB. How do they conduct SUT, CQB Room clearing, mission planning. You are their to find out what the leaderships expectation for their men in THEIR Unit. From that and seeing the facilities in country you will have to make a Training plan.
To many ODAs go into country thinking they will teach this or that. We are their to take what they know NOW or ALREADY and make them better.
Lastly I will say this, there are some that do need to be retaught or refresh their engagement of technical, upper edge weapons/systems too.
When I was 18B, it always seemed to me that our ODA didn't spend enough time on Team IAD's and other Team-specific tasks, such as rope bridges, RON procedures, etc.
When we were training indig, we were always pressed for time going all the way up to tactical training for Company-sized units, as well...
frostfire
01-17-2015, 20:44
There are plenty 'sniper' or precision rifle data books out there. There isn't much for regular combat rifle. Here's a combat rifle data book for professional marksmen who want the most out of their A2/A4.
Mods, please remove if irrelevant.
WarriorDiplomat
01-25-2015, 10:10
When I was 18B, it always seemed to me that our ODA didn't spend enough time on Team IAD's and other Team-specific tasks, such as rope bridges, RON procedures, etc.
When we were training indig, we were always pressed for time going all the way up to tactical training for Company-sized units, as well...
Agreed, I have noticed that the the CO level up to include many teams do not even consider a true assessment that is data from the 18F on threats and capabilities, PDSS data and the most important piece the continuity from the GCC strategic plan down to the country level on what the endstate should be and the 5 yr projection. As of now many teams are running mini SFAUC's for host nation forces that spend of their career along borders in rural/desert conditions. I myself was told what to train and I would assess anyway and brief the team leadership on what they really need.
The Q still uses 21-76 RHB however X-rays and Infantry in general the last 8 yrs learn 3-21.8 and .10 which is different in many ways. The basics stay the same and agrred with all indig do not need to be expert marksman or U.S. Infantry standards train them to what they NEED to accomplish their objectives nothing more. Recent history shows we will be fighting someone we have trained before the question is when.
The 18B needs to understand, Leadership, U.S. weapons, Marksmanship principles, tactics, defense, and equally important foreign tactics and weapon capabilities. IMHO a basic understanding of psychology and motivating factors. As a Weapons Sgt you will spend more time with indig than anyone else and will hear atmospherics daily that should end up in the daily sitrep.
The 18B needs to understand, Leadership, U.S. weapons, Marksmanship principles, tactics, defense, and equally important foreign tactics and weapon capabilities. IMHO a basic understanding of psychology and motivating factors. As a Weapons Sgt you will spend more time with indig than anyone else and will hear atmospherics daily that should end up in the daily sitrep.
Heck for me, I felt all of these were the JOB of everyone on the SFODA. I would argue with 18B and ODA members that "Didn't we all go through Small Unit Tactics (SUT)? So why can't or shouldn't we all know SUT TTPs and be able to teach them?" I argument was that "Are we not a ODA that can break down into 3-4 man Split teams to Command and Control (C2) Indigenous forces?
WarriorDiplomat
01-27-2015, 20:37
Heck for me, I felt all of these were the JOB of everyone on the SFODA. I would argue with 18B and ODA members that "Didn't we all go through Small Unit Tactics (SUT)? So why can't or shouldn't we all know SUT TTPs and be able to teach them?" I argument was that "Are we not a ODA that can break down into 3-4 man Split teams to Command and Control (C2) Indigenous forces?
Thats exactly the way of thinking that makes an 18B seem irrelevant if he isn't an SME on these topics then who is? and why train and designate him as the detachment SME responsible for this? Every man should cross train and be familiar on everyone else's MOS of course being taught by the detachment SME. I was a former 12B I knew MDI, Demo Calcs, engineer recon tasks, battlefield shaping etc...as well as an 18C coming into SF but once I trained as an 18B I made sure I was a SME on Bravo expertise IAW the training, expectations, etc....that were my responsibility so that the other SME's could continue to be experts in their areas, being cross trained does not mean you take over someone else's MOS. Everyone should know basic 7-8/10 tactics and basic weapon employment and capabilities but not everyone on the ODA needs to be constantly up and researching the latest and greatest tactical and weapons knowledge when they have their own MOS's to be the experts of.
As far as SUT I can tell you after 3 yrs of teaching everyone from former, RI's, Regiment, Infantry etc....that it is a perishable skill. As simple as an enroute rally point is easily forgotten or how to cross an LDA and the thinking behind it the actual why. Someone should be responsible for the Institutional expertise and it should be that 18B. Should the team be able to teach basic infantry TTP's? yes at a minimum and be prepared to work as a split? yes. Hence the 2 of each MOS as our doctrine calls for split team operations and normally the 18C if split into smaller elements should be the next advisor in that respect in line. And no for you future 18B's Ranger school does not teach you tactics and in fact many Ranger tabbed guys barely know them cadre observation but it does add weight to your opinion with those who recognize it of course those are assumptions and have nothing to do with actual knowledge or capability just a reality of the Army.
Thats exactly the way of thinking that makes an 18B seem irrelevant if he isn't an SME on these topics then who is? and why train and designate him as the detachment SME responsible for this? Every man should cross train and be familiar on everyone else's MOS of course being taught by the detachment SME. I was a former 12B I knew MDI, Demo Calcs, engineer recon tasks, battlefield shaping etc...as well as an 18C coming into SF but once I trained as an 18B I made sure I was a SME on Bravo expertise IAW the training, expectations, etc....that were my responsibility so that the other SME's could continue to be experts in their areas, being cross trained does not mean you take over someone else's MOS. Everyone should know basic 7-8/10 tactics and basic weapon employment and capabilities but not everyone on the ODA needs to be constantly up and researching the latest and greatest tactical and weapons knowledge when they have their own MOS's to be the experts of.
As far as SUT I can tell you after 3 yrs of teaching everyone from former, RI's, Regiment, Infantry etc....that it is a perishable skill. As simple as an enroute rally point is easily forgotten or how to cross an LDA and the thinking behind it the actual why. Someone should be responsible for the Institutional expertise and it should be that 18B. Should the team be able to teach basic infantry TTP's? yes at a minimum and be prepared to work as a split? yes. Hence the 2 of each MOS as our doctrine calls for split team operations and normally the 18C if split into smaller elements should be the next advisor in that respect in line. And no for you future 18B's Ranger school does not teach you tactics and in fact many Ranger tabbed guys barely know them cadre observation but it does add weight to your opinion with those who recognize it of course those are assumptions and have nothing to do with actual knowledge or capability just a reality of the Army.
I think we are saying the same thing. I guess I'm saying everyone on the SFODA needs to be able to teach SUT, know SUT Tactics and TTPs. Like you said, it is a perishable skill. I just felt like ODAs were or had become to MOS centric, were if it wasn't in their job or MOS they didn't care to learn about.
WarriorDiplomat
01-28-2015, 16:41
I think we are saying the same thing. I guess I'm saying everyone on the SFODA needs to be able to teach SUT, know SUT Tactics and TTPs. Like you said, it is a perishable skill. I just felt like ODAs were or had become to MOS centric, were if it wasn't in their job or MOS they didn't care to learn about.
Agreed we are definitely saying the same thing MG