Female RANGERS [Archive] - Page 2 - Professional Soldiers ®

Sdiver

05-29-2015, 14:47

Just saw this come across the web ...

All Female Ranger Candidates Have Now Completely Failed Out

Multiple sources who reported reliably on related issues in the past have informed Havok Journal that as of 30 May, all female Ranger candidates have failed out of Ranger School.

As we reported earlier this month, 19 female candidates started the program, with 8 making it past the first phase of training. All 8 female candidates–as well as numerous male Ranger School candidates–failed to achieve course standards and were “recycled” to a later class. Now, we are told, the female candidates have been completely dropped from the course, bringing an end to the Army’s first experiment with allowing female Soldiers to attend Ranger School.

The specifics of each failure are unknown, but indications are that the candidates failed to achieve course standards in the patrolling phase of training for a second time and were consequently terminated from training. Word is that all of the female candidates were offered “zero-day recycles” meaning they would have to start the entire training program over again. Three female candidates are said to have accepted the offer and will begin anew in late June. Five candidates declined, meaning that they will no longer be seeking to earn their Ranger tabs.

Rangers all over the world are likely breathing a deep sigh of relief with this news, but it’s not for the reasons most people think. While this is certainly a loss for the female candidates, it can be seen as something positive for the Army. Initial concerns with the first female class included sneaking suspicions that at least one and probably several female candidates would be permitted to graduate, and the requirements and standards for Ranger School would be watered down to make it happen. Obviously that did not occur with this class, lending credence to the Army’s claims that there would not be a lowering of the standards simply to accommodate women… at least for now.

The system appears to have worked the way it was supposed to: women were allowed to compete for their tab, and the standard was maintained. Unfortunately no female candidates met the standard… yet. But by showing a willingness to adhere to the standard in the face of what will most likely be political blowback from Congress and special interest groups will, paradoxically, make it easier for female candidates at Ranger School or other formerly-closed programs such as the SEAL training pipeline without constant suspicion of “you only graduated because you’re a woman.”

All of the candidates who were unsuccessful at Ranger School, male or female, should continue to hold their heads up high knowing that they at least had the guts to try. Good luck to everyone who is now in or will be attending Ranger School. Achieve and uphold the standard; you should seek, and accept, nothing less.

http://www.havokjournal.com/culture/all-female-ranger-candidates-have-now-completely-failed-out/

Team Sergeant

05-29-2015, 15:25

Now the Standards will be lowered to accommodate the Army's "physically challenged".

I'd bet any amount its coming.

sinjefe

05-29-2015, 16:21

Rumint is all 8 failed. All 8 were offered day 1 recycle. 3 accepted and 5 are going home.

blacksmoke

05-29-2015, 16:27

Im curious to know what MOS's these women held, were they O's or enlisteds? Never been to Ranger school but now I'm curious if there are some women out there that can pass the current standard? :munchin Of course I know thats a dangerous question.

Flagg

05-29-2015, 16:34

Does anyone know offhand how likely a single zero day recycle is offered to candidates?

Also, does anyone know the maximum number of times a zero day recycle has been offered to candidates and the rarity of those multiple zero-day recycles?

Cheers.

Jgood

05-29-2015, 20:50

Do the Standards really have to be that hard?

http://news.yahoo.com/8-women-fail-ranger-school-rangers-standards-change-214600870.html

PRB

05-29-2015, 21:22

Amermine sounds like he's really grooming self for a GO position.

TOMAHAWK9521

05-29-2015, 21:30

Do the Standards really have to be that hard?

http://news.yahoo.com/8-women-fail-ranger-school-rangers-standards-change-214600870.html

YGBSM!!:mad:
Dempsey, Odinero, and whoever the other West Point chicken-sh*ts are can burn their "Man Cards" and eat a d*ck! That school damn near killed my scrawny ass (at the time). Did I thump my chest? No. I was just proud to graduate. Do I think it should be changed? Hell no! :mad:

Mills

05-29-2015, 22:08

YGBSM!!:mad:
Dempsey, Odinero, and whoever the other West Point chicken-sh*ts are can burn their "Man Cards" and eat a d*ck! That school damn near killed my scrawny ass (at the time). Did I thump my chest? No. I was just proud to graduate. Do I think it should be changed? Hell no! :mad:

Luckilly, they are all on their way out.

At least we have some guys that have worn the blue cord and collars, ranger tab, and special forces tab joining us as the new face of "army wide" leadership.

Thankfully, we wont have to stare at a giant CAB on a dress uniform from our leader who spent the majority of their careers in support or training and doctrine positions. Maybe the brass will wise us finally and dial back the concessions towards special interest groups a bit and get back to the basics of what we should be able to do best.

Defeat the enemy.

abc_123

05-30-2015, 07:06

Now the Standards will be lowered to accommodate the Army's "physically challenged".

I'd bet any amount its coming.

And we have a winner! This go round was a public demonstration of "see we can uphold standards" and that the standards will be applied equally. Now the slower but non public process will start of analyzing why those women failed with recommendations for changes to increase the odds.

When the fix is in, it's in.

sinjefe

05-30-2015, 07:47

This has always been about getting their way. "They" want to emasculate these bastions of manhood. They aren't able to do it with the first argument (don't change the standard because there are plenty of women who can meet it because there really is no difference between the two) so they reframe the argument to "well, they're the wrong standards. We won't lower the standards we'll change the standards because they're archaic"

Roguish Lawyer

05-30-2015, 11:29

What is all of the talk of a "standard"? We all know there is discretion in this course, and the neanderthals who run it could never stand to see a woman succeed like a man. :mad:

frostfire

05-30-2015, 12:07

Do the Standards really have to be that hard?

http://news.yahoo.com/8-women-fail-ranger-school-rangers-standards-change-214600870.html

"What he remembers from the six months it took to get his Ranger tab was that “my feet didn’t feel the same for literally two years,… but I can’t honestly say I learned much.”

“If Ranger School is actually about teaching soldiers how to lead and how to fight, then maybe the rite-of-passage aspect of it needs to be lightened,” he says. It might make more sense to figure out “what is the standard for serving in combat, then deal with the rite of passage.” "

Look like a sound logic. I guess the same argument against Beckwith's idea to adopt SAS approach: What's walking around in 100+ lbs for endless miles have to do special operations?

I'm curious what P. Howe would say. In his Leadership for the Fight, the answer would be gut check. Train the body to train the mind.

The Reaper

05-30-2015, 12:22

All 8 women fail Ranger School: Some Rangers say standards should change

On Friday, the Army is expected to announce that all the women who attempted to graduate from Ranger School had officially failed to meet the standards, according to a military source.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2015/0529/All-8-women-fail-Ranger-School-Some-Rangers-say-standards-should-change

By Anna Mulrine, Staff writer MAY 29, 2015

WASHINGTON - On Friday, the Army is expected to announce that all the women who had attempted to graduate from Ranger School had officially failed to meet the standards, according to a military source.

Ranger School, which grooms the Army's most elite special operations fighting force, opened its doors to women for the first time this year. Eight of the 20 women who originally entered the school's first co-ed class were allowed to recycle through the program after they fell out in their first go-round. The Friday announcement will confirm that this happened again.

To many, this means the system is working as it should.

The Rangers are the best of the best, and being a Ranger means passing a physical test that pushes body and mind to the breaking point. If women can't do it, the argument goes, then they shouldn't be Rangers.

But there is another opinion quietly being voiced as well: that Ranger School is more akin to a rite of passage - an opportunity for men to "thump their chest," as one Ranger puts it - than a realistic preparation for leading in war. That women can actually make Ranger units more effective. And that the standards that keep them out are outdated.

It is an opinion, perhaps surprisingly, that comes from two current Rangers.

This is the sort of suggestion that has long been guaranteed to create a robust outcry in many soldierly quarters - one that involves, put most politely, the charge that this would amount to lowering standards in order to meet some goal born of political correctness.

It isn't a way of thinking likely to gain great traction anytime soon. Gen. Raymond Odierno, the Army's top officer, made this clear during a breakfast with reporters Thursday. While praising the performance of the women at the Ranger School, he added: "I'm actually fairly adamant about not changing the physical standards."

But a discussion is percolating.

Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus told the Navy Times this week that once women start attending SEAL training, it would make sense to examine the standards. "First, we're going to make sure there are standards. Second, that they are gender-neutral, and third, that they have something to do with the job," he said.

It is increasingly men who are doing the talking about standards because, they say, they've trained in the schools, served in the field, and they believe it's the right thing to do.

"Of course women don't want to change the standard - they don't want to be accused of lowering it," says Col. Jason Amerine, a Ranger and West Point graduate. "And men don't want to change it either, because it lets us thump our chest."

As a result, "women will always fight to meet the male standard, even if it's arbitrary and kind of stupid," he adds. "I'm often pretty horrified at the adversity they face, while they keep their mouths shut and deal with it."

Others agree that the time has come for a conversation.

"I think it'll be contentious, but I think it's equitable and sensible to ask the question about what are the [Ranger School] standards that are only related to the fact that only men have ever done it," says retired Lt. Gen. David Barno, who served as the top commander of United States forces in Afghanistan, as well as three tours in Army Ranger battalions.

What's more, "it needs to be a Ranger qualified leader," he adds, one with "intestinal fortitude" to ask: "What's the 'secret sauce' of Ranger School? How do you not dilute that, but make sure the standards make sense?"

This argument is less about gender equity than the firm belief that women can make Ranger battalions better. In modern warfare, relations with local populations are crucial, and women Rangers would provide unique value added in places such as Afghanistan or Iraq, where cultural norms often prohibit contact between male soldiers and women. Ranger School also showed women were innovative problem-solvers who offered fresh approaches in the field.

On the battlefield itself, they have proven themselves. While at war, Colonel Amerine says, "I was rarely with female soldiers who couldn't hang."

To him, this raises the question of what Ranger School is actually about. As new technologies potentially make raw physical strength less important, the real challenge, many say, becomes bringing women's leadership skills into the upper echelons of the armed forces.

For Col. Jason Dempsey, a fellow Ranger and West Point graduate, this points to a need for "reassessing what war-fighting is, and what's really important," he says, rather than "having 100,000 guys who are essentially pack mules."

Ranger School could be made better, says Amerine, who was awarded a Bronze Star with "Valor" for Special Forces action in Afghanistan in the opening days of the war, and is currently under whistleblower investigation by the Army for criticizing US hostage rescue policy (Amerine has served on special forces hostage rescue missions).

"Nobody is saying, 'Are the standards kind of stupid?' " he adds. "What's interesting is that no one had this much love for the standards when it was only men."

As it stands today, Ranger School involves, say, "carrying 60 or 70 pounds on your back and walking for 12 miles - it's not brain surgery," Colonel Dempsey says.

Despite this, "Any effort to change that is 'changing the standard.' "
The question, he adds, is: Are these standards a fair measure of the challenges of combat?

Dempsey recalls being in violent Kunar province in Afghanistan and hiking up to the rugged Pakistan border. Along for the mission was a male first sergeant who was also a Ranger-tabbed Golden Gloves boxer. The unit had to stop for the first sergeant because he needed to rest during the strenuous march.

"No one's going to say that the first sergeant is a deadbeat. We need him, and we're just going to take a break."

On other occasions, he adds, the combat patrols would simply make the decision not to bring along their heavy packs.

"The equipment we carry is just insane," Amerine says. "We all have back injuries at the end of our careers."

The No. 1 Department of Veterans Affairs claim - made by 58 percent of all claimants - is muscular-skeletal injuries.

"If we really are serious about integrating the force, the equipment we carry is going to be one of the things we have to have a hard conversation about," Amerine says. "It's in our grasp technologically to make things a lot lighter."

Take away brute strength as one of the pillars of Ranger School, and its purpose begins to preparing Army soldiers to be excellent leaders, which has long been the promise of Ranger School, he adds.

In that context, the Ranger pass-fail rates look different. After West Point invested four years building the men in Amerine's class into leaders, "All of us were expected to go to Ranger School, and all of us were expected to pass," he says.

But that's not true of women, "and I have a problem with that," he adds. "I think there's something fundamentally wrong with that structure."
What he remembers from the six months it took to get his Ranger tab was that "my feet didn't feel the same for literally two years,... but I can't honestly say I learned much."

"If Ranger School is actually about teaching soldiers how to lead and how to fight, then maybe the rite-of-passage aspect of it needs to be lightened," he says. It might make more sense to figure out "what is the standard for serving in combat, then deal with the rite of passage."

For now, there's no indication that the Army is even considering such a move. But neither is it considering closing off women from trying for their Ranger tab.
"We'll probably run a couple more pilots," General Odierno said. "I don't think we're going to give up on it."

trinity

05-30-2015, 14:55

Trying to bite my tongue here. . . Suffice it to say that women DO NOT belong in Rangers, Special Operations (any branch), or for that matter, anywhere in combat arms. MNSHO.

Roguish Lawyer

05-30-2015, 15:13

Everything started going downhill when we let them vote. :munchin

Razor

05-30-2015, 15:21

"If Ranger School is actually about teaching soldiers how to lead and how to fight, then maybe the rite-of-passage aspect of it needs to be lightened," (Amerine) says. It might make more sense to figure out "what is the standard for serving in combat, then deal with the rite of passage."

He completely misses the point that the leadership being taught and practiced is leadership in a physically and mentally stressful environment. Soldiers can and do learn about leadership in many low stress venues already (Basic, pre-commissioning, WLC, ALC, BOLC, etc.). What sets Ranger School apart is applying basic leadership principles when you and everyone around you is tired, hungry, uncomfortable and not very motivated to do what you're asking them to do.

Could they reduce the standards and still make students uncomfortable? Sure, but uncomfortable is not exhausted, starving and constantly struggling with the idea of just saying fuck this and quitting. The sheer difficulty of the course is a large part of the learning experience--will I have what it takes to rise up and do what I should do, both for myself and my peers, when I absolutely don't want to? Take that aspect away, or lessen it, and you lose an essential part of what the course is trying to teach.

Amerine should know this, especially given his background.

Joker

05-30-2015, 15:40

Everything started going downhill when we let them vote. :munchin

Wrong. It started when we started letting lawyers run this country. ;)

Peregrino

05-30-2015, 16:21

He completely misses the point that the leadership being taught and practiced is leadership in a physically and mentally stressful environment. Soldiers can and do learn about leadership in many low stress venues already (Basic, pre-commissioning, WLC, ALC, BOLC, etc.). What sets Ranger School apart is applying basic leadership principles when you and everyone around you is tired, hungry, uncomfortable and not very motivated to do what you're asking them to do.

Could they reduce the standards and still make students uncomfortable? Sure, but uncomfortable is not exhausted, starving and constantly struggling with the idea of just saying fuck this and quitting. The sheer difficulty of the course is a large part of the learning experience--will I have what it takes to rise up and do what I should do, both for myself and my peers, when I absolutely don't want to? Take that aspect away, or lessen it, and you lose an essential part of what the course is trying to teach.

Amerine should know this, especially given his background.

And bluntly - that's the only thing I got out of it. I already had light infantry and SF, patrolling was easy. The gut check and learning to motivate myself and others when everybody was sucking was the one "take-away" that has stood me good stead every since. (That and peer reports - I didn't understand them when I went there either.)

As for Amerine - he's obviously pretty special. Volunteering to spend 6-months playing with RIs would mark most as candidates for a psych eval. Most everyone I know took the 2-month short course.

Team Sergeant

05-30-2015, 17:36

Wrong. It started when we started letting lawyers run this country. ;)

LOL Oh Snap......

frostfire

05-30-2015, 23:38

Trying to bite my tongue here. . . Suffice it to say that women DO NOT belong in Rangers, Special Operations (any branch), or for that matter, anywhere in combat arms. MNSHO.

Don't want to hijack too much of this thread, but yes, they do have a unique role and traits that guys would struggle to replace. Go to USASED or any SMU recruiting briefing and you'll see. A review of the OSS and Jedburg female "commando" would also show that unique role.

PRB

05-31-2015, 10:48

Don't want to hijack too much of this thread, but yes, they do have a unique role and traits that guys would struggle to replace. Go to USASED or any SMU recruiting briefing and you'll see. A review of the OSS and Jedburg female "commando" would also show that unique role.

No one has issues with units selecting and approving their own selections without outside interference .....for specific mission profiles you are correct.
Changing the standards to allow for sexual integration for PC reasons is a different subject.

blacksmoke

05-31-2015, 15:06

This is great. I don't have time to train. Now's my chance to get my Ranger tab, we need to integrate women.:D Keep it up!

bailaviborita

06-02-2015, 04:49

I can't but help think this is related (note the last sentence below): http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/opinion/the-wnba-should-bring-the-basket-down-and-fandom-up.html?emc=edit_th_20150602&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=62971638&_r=0&referrer=

IN a few days, the W.N.B.A. will tip off its 19th season, but the women will most likely compete in half-empty arenas in games broadcast on ESPN2, and results will be relegated to the back of sports sections.

There is one easy way to inject excitement into the sport and get these athletes more of the exposure they deserve.

Lower the rims.

The women who play college and professional basketball are amazing athletes — but they’re also undeniably shorter than their male counterparts. Both in the pros and the college ranks, the men have about seven inches on the women.

Currently, the women’s game relies on jump shots, which translate to lower shooting percentages and a more workaday style. In a sense, women are deprived of the opportunity to fully express their raw athleticism.

PedOncoDoc

06-02-2015, 06:05

I can't but help think this is related (note the last sentence below): http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/opinion/the-wnba-should-bring-the-basket-down-and-fandom-up.html?emc=edit_th_20150602&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=62971638&_r=0&referrer=

IN a few days, the W.N.B.A. will tip off its 19th season, but the women will most likely compete in half-empty arenas in games broadcast on ESPN2, and results will be relegated to the back of sports sections.

There is one easy way to inject excitement into the sport and get these athletes more of the exposure they deserve.

Lower the rims.

I was going to go with, "Have them play topless." :D

The women who play college and professional basketball are amazing athletes — but they’re also undeniably shorter than their male counterparts. Both in the pros and the college ranks, the men have about seven inches on the women.

Currently, the women’s game relies on jump shots, which translate to lower shooting percentages and a more workaday style. In a sense, women are deprived of the opportunity to fully express their raw athleticism.

Not true - they are able to express their raw athleticism to the constrains of their physical limitations.

frostfire

06-02-2015, 12:31

I was going to go with, "Have them play topless." :D

As a proud graduate....errr, survivor, of 100+ hours of EO and SHARP, I must point out that this statement objectifies what otherwise professional athletes into mere amusement for neanderthals :p

Following up on bailaviborita post, let's see this standard adjustment in the professional sports first, and check if the men in those sports, i.e. NBA express any objection

PSM

06-02-2015, 12:48

Lower the rims.

The women who play college and professional basketball are amazing athletes — but they’re also undeniably shorter than their male counterparts. Both in the pros and the college ranks, the men have about seven inches on the women.

Currently, the women’s game relies on jump shots, which translate to lower shooting percentages and a more workaday style. In a sense, women are deprived of the opportunity to fully express their raw athleticism.

I don't remember Muggsy bitching about the rim height.

Pat

Box

06-02-2015, 15:01

This isn't about Spud Webb and his ability to play ball.

It is about the unfair advantage given to him because of the X/Y chromosome spread.
...he was only in the NBA because he is a man. If he was a woman he'd just be the girl named Tony, from Dallas.

and THAT is discrimination

koz

06-03-2015, 14:33

I think Stephan Curry is probably the most amazing player to watch right now. His ability to cut/ stop and then accurately hit a 3pt shot is amazing. Doesn't have anything to do with his height

cat in the hat

07-05-2015, 11:24

last night i met one of the female candidates and she was very clear that she "had her ass handed to her" while trying to make the cut.

she deployed twice with SF as a CST augmentee, looked like a cross fit poster child, does triathlons, biathalons, spartan races and other such activities for hobbies AND did not sound like a crybaby about not making it.

she said it was far tougher than she imagined it would be and that even though the women felt like their might have been a target on their backs, she did not feel as though they were being treated unfairly.

the best comment she made was that if standards are lowered for women to make it, she would not bother trying again.

PRB

07-05-2015, 14:04

Good for her...gave it a shot and no crying or victimhood gig.

Any updates on the 3 in course now?

bailaviborita

07-06-2015, 05:21

I wonder if her comment, "it was far tougher than she thought it would be" comes from a cultural proclivity emanating from Hollywood, Disney, our politicians, many dads without sons, and women with older brothers that women "can do anything they want to". How many of these women grew up watching tiny little Hollywood heroines crush the skulls of 250 pound linebackers? How many grew up hearing from Disney that they didn't have to be a traditional woman if they didn't want to. Heck- today they are being told they don't have to be a female at all if they don't want to.

I'm not saying women shouldn't have the freedoms they enjoy n the U.S., but I think the "liberation" movement has dumped a system that did serve some good purposes. If women are superheroes and can do anything men can and shouldn't be treated specially- then why the contradictory message from the Army that men have to protect them from sexual assault?

Box

07-06-2015, 05:27

she said it was far tougher than she imagined it would be and that even though the women felt like their might have been a target on their backs, she did feel as though they were being treated unfairly

So she admitted that she got her ass handed to her...
...did she elaborate on why why she felt she had been treated unfairly?

It sounds like the common response given when someone bolo's out of ANY militry school...
..."the instructors fucked me over."

The reference to her SF-CST career sours my opinion of her right off the bat so admittedly I am biased.

PRB

07-06-2015, 10:07

So she admitted that she got her ass handed to her...
...did she elaborate on why why she felt she had been treated unfairly?

It sounds like the common response given when someone bolo's out of ANY militry school...
..."the instructors fucked me over."

The reference to her SF-CST career sours my opinion of her right off the bat so admittedly I am biased.

I think he meant to type treated fairly....from the rest this seems misprint

Pericles

07-06-2015, 13:30

I think he meant to type treated fairly....from the rest this seems misprint

Or, perhaps, for the first time in her military career, she was treated just like everybody else.

Guy

07-06-2015, 14:20

Sdiver

07-06-2015, 15:26

Imagine being a long-tabber going through....:eek:

What, you mean you guys don't get a "free pass" and are automatically handed a Ranger tab? :cool:

abc_123

07-06-2015, 15:34

What, you mean you guys don't get a "free pass" and are automatically handed a Ranger tab? :cool:

No I can emphatically state that that was not the reality that I experienced. :D

Added to THAT reality was the (mis)fortune to be personally recognized by two different RIs. The first during City Phase while running down to CIF was an RI that I had the first time I went to Ranger School somehow recognizing me 4 YEARS later...

The other being a former platoon-mate from my first Ranger School attempthat had turned himself into a Florida Phase RI.

Good times! :lifter

cat in the hat

07-06-2015, 16:09

So she admitted that she got her ass handed to her...
...did she elaborate on why why she felt she had been treated unfairly?

It sounds like the common response given when someone bolo's out of ANY militry school...
..."the instructors fucked me over."

The reference to her SF-CST career sours my opinion of her right off the bat so admittedly I am biased.

meant to type that she did NOT feel as if they were treated unfairly.

fixed the original post.

it was a brief conversation. Not being a Ranger myself, did not feel that it was my place to offer an opinion or question her about the course.

miclo18d

07-06-2015, 19:55

So they were given extensive time away from their units to prep and perceived that they were being treated equally to men during the suck.

I was in Ranger Batt and many times you got ZERO time to prepare for Ranger School. You were expected to be ready at all times. Sometimes you came back from a deployment and went straight to Pre-Ranger and off to RTB. My PSG told me to come back with my tab or don't come back. No extra help and a message to succeed or take a hike.

Best Ranger competitors from Rgr Batts were not given extra time (at first) while many other units gave their guys 6 months to train up.

Right off the bat they are being treated BETTER than their male counterparts by getting extra time to prepare.

Razor

07-06-2015, 21:26

she deployed twice with SF as a CST augmentee, looked like a cross fit poster child, does triathlons, biathalons, spartan races and other such activities for hobbies AND did not sound like a crybaby about not making it.

Good on her for owning up to her shortcomings.

No surprise to me re: superstars in bodyweight-only exercise not able to handle serious weight carriage. While I anticipate the 3 current re-recycles to get through Darby this time, I fully expect the rucks carried up and down the TVD in Mountain Phase to grind them into the dirt, and likely produce some serious soft tissue/joint injuries.

bubba

07-06-2015, 22:04

No surprise to me re: superstars in bodyweight-only exercise not able to handle serious weight carriage. While I anticipate the 3 current re-recycles to get through Darby this time, I fully expect the rucks carried up and down the TVD in Mountain Phase to grind them into the dirt, and likely produce some serious soft tissue/joint injuries

+1.

The "stress" of Darby is almost all artificial and / or self imposed by the RI's and Studs. The actual stress of walking up and down the mountains that don't care who or what you are will break even the most studly of man to the raw nerves of who they are. Not one other terrain feature on earth with the exception of maybe the Ocean will humble someone as fast. I'd gladly take some guy yelling at me and making me do PT over simply walking up and down some mountain on a time hack, with some 'land-nav-NO-GO' walking us in circles or conducting 'one-man-comp' in a pool. (I'm not a dive guy but that's another story all together, "a man's got to know his limitations").

Point is, it only gets HARDER as the school goes on, and then IF one graduates, only then will she begin to earn that little black and gold arc that will run you about $1 at clothing sales. See, what the brochure fails to mention, what ain't mentioned in the newest copy of SH 21-76, and what NO RI will ever tell them, you earn that tab every day, and if you don't, then you let down everyone who is picking up your slack.

...."NEVER SHALL I FAIL MY COMRADES......"

bailaviborita

07-07-2015, 05:20

Mills

07-07-2015, 20:12

And the narrative being spun by the Army is disingenuous- the CSA said they failed Darby because they aren't combat arms and therefore haven't had the experience the guys have had.

#1- the West Point cadets got the same level of patrolling experience as any other male LT going through Ranger right after Basic.
#2- as was mentioned- these women got lots of prep- not just physical. They can do TLP in their sleep and maneuver squads by the book

What they can't do, however, is patrol continuously with all that weight and they can't pull the same as the rest of their squad. That makes them fail peers and patrols. In the end it IS about the physical--- when conducting military tasks...

Experience huh? I guess that is a factor...........until you basically PCS to ranger school. At which point you should know what to expect.

So that does nothing more than solidify that some women, who have an upper hand in regards to prepartation and training.........cannot meet the physical demands of specific jobs in the military.

Pete

07-08-2015, 05:14

Well, if I count on my fingers correctly the Darby phase should finish up day after tomorrow.

Either 1, 2 or 3 passed. My bet is 2 move on.

bailaviborita

07-08-2015, 07:18

Word is that it is the same as last time. If 1 or 2 move on it will be solely because of the tremendous pressure on the brigade board to pass them over the objections of the RIs.

I've even heard senior leaders say they need some to finish the course- even if they get recycled or sent home- so they can have "some data". Remember- this is all in aid of crafting policies to integrate combat arms...

Hard to develop policies save for doing away with all physical standards if you have no data... (or so the thinking goes...)

EverlACEting

07-09-2015, 20:47

All three passed a patrol. Meets minimum requirement to move forward as far as patrols go.

Pete

07-10-2015, 07:39

It's after 0900 and it's taking a while or the official word to break in Stars & Stripes and the Army Times.

SouthernDZ

07-10-2015, 09:22

When I was a 1SG I walked on eggshells on daily basis with my half dozen female support troops. In all fairness, two of them showed real leadership traits (every 28 days or so). :rolleyes:

sinjefe

07-10-2015, 09:32

http://weaponsman.com/?p=23843

Looks like they all passed.

Team Sergeant

07-10-2015, 09:39

Rangerette are on the way.....

And trannies in the shadows......

This will sure help once the civilian government reduces the Army ranks by 40,000.

I wonder how many real "Rangers" will lay down their berets and remove their tabs.

Fundamental Changes are bening instituted under Liberal Fascism, and no one, will stand up to it.

Pete

07-10-2015, 14:26

Official - Well, Army Times

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/07/10/three-women-third-try-pass-darby-phase/29968107/

"After three tries, the three women remaining in the Army's gender-integrated assessment of Ranger School have successfully completed the Darby Phase, officials said Friday.

The women, along with 158 male classmates, will be moving on to the Mountain Phase Saturday in Dahlonega, Georgia..."

craigepo

07-10-2015, 15:51

Dahlonega-blueberry pancakes, Tennessee Valley Divide, falling practice with a bowline-on-a-coil.

That's about all the hell I remember.

Falling practice with a bowline-on-a-coil would be rough with boobs.

Bechorg

07-10-2015, 17:16

From one of our own in the class right now, the 3 are performing at a very high level, and are impressive.

Miles

07-10-2015, 19:03

From one of our own in the class right now, the 3 are performing at a very high level, and are impressive.

I'd think they should be "impressive" after having gone through this phase twice before. Apparently practice does make perfect.

bailaviborita

07-10-2015, 21:32

Well- I guess since COL Fivecoat has allegedly said they will pass- maybe there was pressure on the RIs. Interesting that now there are women who failed saying they were surprised and probably treated unfairly. And that there are interest groups that are calling into question the RI's ability to be objective. Guess we'll need an investigation into whether RIs - or any male- can be objective about women. Oh- wait- "they" have already said males can't!!

My prediction is that unless they get injured or quit or fall out of training- the RIs will be pressured to let them pass...

This gets to the heart of why this is very different than Canada or our European allies attempts to incorporate women into combat arms: those countries just let them in, didn't change standards, didn't run tests, didn't treat them differently, and didn't make a big deal about it. We, on the other hand, are being pressured by interest groups and the current admin to bring about a "preferred" outcome- women in combat arms in numbers that will "change the culture". That is why I think there is such tremendous backlash at the ground level in combat arms to all this---

craigepo

07-15-2015, 09:26

Beef

07-16-2015, 07:43

One of the better articles I have read on the subject. National Review is usually rather objective.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/420826/women-in-combat-military-effectiveness-deadly-pentagon

I would say that NR is being very objective in that article, just presenting hard facts. Thanks for the link.

Badger52

07-17-2015, 04:51

I would say that NR is being very objective in that article, just presenting hard facts. Thanks for the link.Agree. Reality bites.

bailaviborita

07-17-2015, 11:28

I just love stories that only quote feel-good responses and paint everything as breathlessly progressive. Seems like everything is just going great! Yay!

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2015/0716/In-historic-first-three-women-tackle-Ranger-School-s-grueling-mountain-phase

The Ranger Instructors report they have seen little difference so far in the men and women, except for one small thing, says Sergeant 1st Class Andrew Peddycord. “Just from what I’ve seen so far, they’re the only ones not complaining.”

*******

Now the women are finally here, and as she watches the female Ranger students double-time it across the camp with their male comrades in arms, she sighs.

“You know how when you hear about a dream come true, or a fairy tale?” she says. “It’s like that.”

*******

Already the three women who remain in Ranger School have earned the admiration of many Rangers here for repeating the previous 14-day phase, known as the Darby course, three times before passing.

It happens, but it is rare. “That’s earned a lot of respect on my part, and from a lot of us,” says First Sgt. John Merenda. “They did pretty phenomenal.”

It helped that the scores the women were given by their peers – a key part of the grading process for all Ranger students – were “very high,” leaders here say. They also had no major demerits – known here as spot reports. And though they struggled with patrols, they had failed to pass by only a slim margin. These factors – along with their clear determination and high physical fitness – led to the decision to offer them that third chance, Command Sergeant Major Arnold says.

********

The female observer-advisers are more interested in watching as one of the women makes her way to the ropes. Tilley is, too. “Climbing this is one of the benchmarks of Ranger School,” he says. “This is six decades worth of history, let’s be honest.”

********

Her husband, a Ranger, encouraged her to become an observer-adviser for the program. “He thought it’d be awesome if we both had Ranger tabs.”

She did, too. “I think women can do anything.”

*******

As if to drive home the point, a nearby student eyes an instructor eating a power bar. “Sorry,” the instructor says.

“I’ll eat it with my eyes,” the student replies.

*******

It is a point of which the female observer-advisers are acutely aware, particularly since some of them are interested in attending the school themselves one day in the near future, including Mueller and Frink.

For now, the observer-advisers are focused on the women here. They’re instructed to maintain their objectivity among the female Ranger students. “We’re not supposed to smile or show any bias,” one says. And they are careful not to.

“None of us are here to be cheerleaders, but inside, all of us are so excited they have made it this far,” says Staff Sgt. Paris Cervantes, who as a kid wanted to either go into humanitarian aid work or join the military. She chose the latter and became an explosive ordnance device specialist, finding roadside bombs in Afghanistan.

“That’s what was killing soldiers, so that’s what I wanted to do.” Still, she acknowledges, that was after she was told she couldn’t be in the infantry.

“Just one of them. That’s all we need,” she says. “Just one is all it takes to say, ‘It can be done.’ ”

bailaviborita

07-18-2015, 08:14

If anyone hasn't read between the lines- the advocates have been pretty clear about what they want to do:

it has also revealed a flaw at the heart of the evaluative process being used to allow women into Marine combat roles. By focusing so intently on physical fitness, the corps is avoiding the real barrier to integration — the hypermasculine culture at its heart.

I know the value of the present Marine culture. For eight years, I served as an officer in infantry and Special Operations units. The infantry is the soul of the corps. Marine pilots, tankers and artillerymen all exist to support the infantry and the infantry is all-male. I experienced how this all-male culture nurtures an intense brotherhood, an alchemical bond I’ve seen inspire incredible courage in the deserts of Anbar Province and the choked valleys of the Hindu Kush. The real reason many Marines don’t want women in the infantry is that it will forever change that culture.

Even so, our military must represent the values of those it serves. Other integrated branches of the military effectively foster camaraderie without relying on a culture of hypermasculinity. With gender integration a distinct possibility, the Marine infantry must honestly imagine a similar path.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/18/opinion/the-real-barrier-for-women-marines.html

Letting women into the military colleges and now combat arms was never meant to foster "equality" for those who could hack it. It was always about changing the culture of - not just the military- but the nation. The cultural elites on our various university campuses dream of a day when there is no such thing as "football", men can go to jail for saying a woman looks nice, and women run at least 50% of the country (political and economic). A country wherein it is illegal to look at a woman for more than 3 sec (if you are a man). A country wherein people are discouraged from taking on traditional gender roles (women in dresses and working at home or being the second breadwinner/ men in the military and being the primary breadwinner). A country wherein the weak are celebrated and given awards and those who advocate traditional strengths are driven to the fringes of society.

That's why focusing on what these women in Ranger School want or say is meaningless. What THEY want doesn't matter. It will be what the advocates do with their efforts--- and the advocates have been pretty clear what kind of future they are aiming at. All this equality talk and "everyone deserves the change to fight for their country" is all crap- they want very specific cultural change- and they are well on their way to getting it. We are all just being played as tools with the tangents of "can they physically hack it", etc.

sinjefe

07-18-2015, 12:54

^^^^^Those kinds of societies attract the barbarians of the world.

Oh wait..... we are so progressive now. That would never happen.:rolleyes:

Unique Calling

07-21-2015, 13:20

Great summary of our society Broadsword!!

Miles

08-01-2015, 21:30

Two have made it through Mountain Phase, first try.
One gets to recycle the phase.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/07/31/two-female-officers-advance-final-phase-of-army-ranger-school.html

x SF med

08-01-2015, 22:36

World History for $2000, Alex

^^^^^Those kinds of societies attract the barbarians of the world.

Oh wait..... we are so progressive now. That would never happen.:rolleyes:

What happened to Rome? Or is it, What happened to Germany? Or wait could it be, What happened to Russia? Or maybe Cuba? Or more recently Venezuela?

Damn it Alex, your statement is too vague!!!

Alex - any of those answers and a few more would be correct, contestant.

SouthernDZ

08-05-2015, 10:42

Two GI Janes on the brink of history: Women within days of becoming the first females to pass the US Army's grueling Ranger School

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3185525/Two-women-advance-final-phase-U-S-Army-s-elite-demanding-Ranger-School.html

Santo Tomas

08-05-2015, 10:50

Two GI Janes on the brink of history: Women within days of becoming the first females to pass the US Army's grueling Ranger School[/url]

That would really be an accomplishment is they met the same standard. But I don't believe they did. not that my opinion counts to big Army. Just my .02

MtnGoat

08-05-2015, 15:25

Two have made it through Mountain Phase, first try.
One gets to recycle the phase.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/07/31/two-female-officers-advance-final-phase-of-army-ranger-school.html

One was a O4 and the other is O3, recycle is a SSG. No way were they going to let a NCO go ahead. :D

bailaviborita

08-06-2015, 06:31

. Ranger School is an elite training program reserved for the most physically fit and soundest of moral fiber in the U.S. Army, who feed into the 75th Ranger Regiment, an elite special operations force.

Chuckle, chuckle.

And love the press' confusion wrt the relationship between ranger regt and the school...

Sgt Fury

08-09-2015, 11:05

This is my first post to any thread, anywhere on this site, so a little tolerance for the FNG.

First, I keep looking for feedback from the Ranger "brotherhood/grapevine" out there on the media circus at the Florida phase of Ranger School, but nothing has shown up. Secondly, I've noticed that no-one, not a single RI, has had the testicular fortitude to say, "Look pal, this women-in-combat-arms business is nonsense. I don't care if Sgt Hotpants can run a marathon in 10 minutes or do 100 one-arm push-ups! We don't want to serve with women." At that point he commits ritual suicide on a live TV feed to drive home his point.

Team Sergeant

08-09-2015, 11:19

Team Sergeant

08-09-2015, 11:22

Guess the Ranger course is not that tough......;) If it was no female should/would be able to pass.

Can't wait to see the female "Rangers" in a hand to hand combat pit with their male counterparts.

Annika Sorenstam

Annika Sorenstam was one of the greatest golfers in LPGA history, winning 72 tournaments. In 2003, she was invited to play in the 2003 Colonial in Ft. Worth, Texas, receiving a sponsor’s exemption to the PGA Tour event. With a couple of exceptions she received a positive reaction from the male pros, and was greeted enthusiastically by fans on the course. Sorenstam shot a 1-over-par 71 in the first round, during which she tied for first in driving accuracy but was 84th in driving distance, averaging 269 yards. She shot 74 the second day and missed the cut. "I came here to test myself,” she said after the tournament. “I'm proud of the way I was focusing and proud of the decisions I made and that I stuck to them. And that's why I am here. I wanted to see if I could do it." Sorenstam received more invitations, but declined to compete in any more PGA Tour events.

Bechorg

08-09-2015, 11:25

"Look pal, this women-in-combat-arms business is nonsense. I don't care if Sgt Hotpants can run a marathon in 10 minutes or do 100 one-arm push-ups! We don't want to serve with women."

That's a career ending thought, and no soldier who serves for his family would say such a thing.

Sgt Fury

08-09-2015, 11:32

Re-read the rules that you signed saying you read..... then tell us what you might of forgotten......:rolleyes:

When you come into our house we'd like to know a little about you. This assists in the framing of a response from a Professional Soldiers member.

I am a retired USAR SFC. Primary MOS 46R (Broadcast Journalist), secondary 11B. I did two tours in Iraq. The first was in 2003. I was attached to the 75th Exploitation Task Force (Weapons of Mass Destruction) as the public affairs NCO. I had to escort Judith Miller of the New York Times from Kuwait to Baghdad, a truly unpleasant experience. For my second tour, I was the Corps LNO NCO at Basra Air Station in 2006. I did a 10-month contract as a "security consultant" in Basra and Mosul doing the currency exchange program and was blown up by an IED in Mosul for my efforts in 2004. Also, I served with the Rhodesian SAS from 1977 until 1980

Sgt Fury

08-09-2015, 11:54

[QUOTE=Sgt Fury;590026]"Look pal, this women-in-combat-arms business is nonsense. I don't care if Sgt Hotpants can run a marathon in 10 minutes or do 100 one-arm push-ups! We don't want to serve with women."

That's a career ending thought, and no soldier who serves for his family would say such a thing.

That is undoubtedly true. As a former Public Affairs soldier, I know that you can be "an unnamed source", but only in print. Clearly I am being facetious, but I am amazed that not a single RI has pulled one of these print journalists aside and voiced any objections of any kind about women attending Ranger School. That article quoted in full on page 8 (I think) of this thread said it all. And I have no doubt that standards have not so much been lowered as "modified", which is pretty much the same thing.

Paragrouper

08-09-2015, 13:05

[QUOTE=Bechorg;590032]

That is undoubtedly true. As a former Public Affairs soldier, I know that you can be "an unnamed source", but only in print. Clearly I am being facetious, but I am amazed that not a single RI has pulled one of these print journalists aside and voiced any objections of any kind about women attending Ranger School. That article quoted in full on page 8 (I think) of this thread said it all. And I have no doubt that standards have not so much been lowered as "modified", which is pretty much the same thing.

Perhaps they were directed not to speak to the media.

Then again, it may be that deep distrust so many professional soldiers have regarding the media.

Paragrouper

08-09-2015, 13:11

When you come into our house we'd like to know a little about you. This assists in the framing of a response from a Professional Soldiers member.

I am a retired USAR SFC. Primary MOS 46R (Broadcast Journalist), secondary 11B. I did two tours in Iraq. The first was in 2003. I was attached to the 75th Exploitation Task Force (Weapons of Mass Destruction) as the public affairs NCO. I had to escort Judith Miller of the New York Times from Kuwait to Baghdad, a truly unpleasant experience. For my second tour, I was the Corps LNO NCO at Basra Air Station in 2006. I did a 10-month contract as a "security consultant" in Basra and Mosul doing the currency exchange program and was blown up by an IED in Mosul for my efforts in 2004. Also, I served with the Rhodesian SAS from 1977 until 1980

Let me help you out. Go back and read the rules again. Pay particular attention to rules 2 and 3.

Sgt Fury

08-09-2015, 13:58

Let me help you out. Go back and read the rules again. Pay particular attention to rules 2 and 3.

Okay. I think I've sorted myself out. Check out my Profile. Not long on detail.

Sgt Fury

08-09-2015, 14:28

[QUOTE=Sgt Fury;590034]

Perhaps they were directed not to speak to the media.

Then again, it may be that deep distrust so many professional soldiers have regarding the media.

The media can be used. One thing I learned as a PA soldier was that dealing with them is a two-way street; they want information from us [the Army] and we want to tell the Army story. I have found that soldiers are invariably distrustful, and rightly so, of the media, but telling a soldier he cannot talk to the media is illegal. He may not be allowed to talk to the media for security purposes, but there's nothing stopping an RI from talking to a reporter. What may be stopping him is fear for his career if he doesn't toe the party line. What I want to hear from the grapevine is the story behind the story of these women in Ranger School. It's out there and should be told. As the British Army says, "No names, no pack-drill."

Pete

08-09-2015, 15:24

Sgt Fury

Friends have tries to help you but you failed to comply.

You have earned a new title.

You have 5 posts - and all are in this thread.

Spend some time thinking on that.

The Reaper

08-09-2015, 15:46

The media can be used. One thing I learned as a PA soldier was that dealing with them is a two-way street; they want information from us [the Army] and we want to tell the Army story. I have found that soldiers are invariably distrustful, and rightly so, of the media, but telling a soldier he cannot talk to the media is illegal. He may not be allowed to talk to the media for security purposes, but there's nothing stopping an RI from talking to a reporter. What may be stopping him is fear for his career if he doesn't toe the party line. What I want to hear from the grapevine is the story behind the story of these women in Ranger School. It's out there and should be told. As the British Army says, "No names, no pack-drill."

If the chain of command orders you to direct all media inquiries to the PAO, and you do not, you are in violation of the UCMJ.

TR

Sgt Fury

08-09-2015, 16:10

If the chain of command orders you to direct all media inquiries to the PAO, and you do not, you are in violation of the UCMJ.

TR
Fair enough. I am guilty of the crime of "thread drift" and associated hubris. I really want to get back to the female Ranger subject and would appreciate some more info from folks out there about this whole sad, wretched business.

Pete

08-09-2015, 16:44

Well, you earned your old title and your new one.

Made your 6th post in this thread - and ignored my post to you.

Sdiver

08-13-2015, 22:01

Maybe Odin was sending a message ???

:munchin

Lightning Strikes 44 Soldiers and Instructors at Army Ranger School

Forty students and four Ranger instructors in the swamp phase of Ranger School were struck by lightning Wednesday afternoon.

All 44 were evacuated to a local hospital, but many were discharged, according to a press release from Fort Benning, Georgia, home of the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade. Eleven soldiers remained hospitalized Thursday evening, according to a news report.

“At the time of the incident, they were conducting lightning-protection protocols when lightning struck nearby,” the release states.

This is the same class that includes two female candidates who are participating in the third and final phase of Ranger School at Camp Rudder at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida.

All of the lightning-strike victims were males. The group was in day seven of the 10-day training cycle during the so-called “swamp phase.”

"The Ranger students and instructors reacted and got everyone proper medical care quickly," Col. David Fivecoat, commander of the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade, said in the release.

"Ranger students and instructors are tough; 31 students will return to training tonight and continue with increased medical monitoring as they try to earn their Ranger tab,” he added.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/08/13/lightning-strikes-44-soldiers-and-instructors-at-army-ranger-sch.html?ESRC=todayinmil.sm

Miles

08-14-2015, 23:07

Maybe Odin was sending a message ???

:munchin

Wrong paganity. Zeus had the T-bolts.

Odin Spear was Gungnir.

Sdiver

08-14-2015, 23:33

Maybe Odin was sending a message ???

:munchin

Wrong paganity. Zeus had the T-bolts.

Odin Spear was Gungnir.

He sent his son, Thor. :munchin

Miles

08-15-2015, 00:41

He sent his son, Thor. :munchin

Hrmmm; Possible. Although Thor's Maul, Mjolnir was more 'thunder' than lightning. :)

I did like the Viking mythology aspect of things before someone decided that Greek mythology was the way to go for almost everything.

Team Sergeant

08-15-2015, 12:07

Lightning Strikes 44 Soldiers and Instructors at Army Ranger School

I've always heard "n" is for knowledge.....

Odin would not get involved is such trivial issues. :munchin

Unique Calling

08-18-2015, 06:41

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/two-women-make-history-passing-armys-elite-ranger-school-n411506

One of many sad days to come...

MtnGoat

08-18-2015, 08:19

So who says they will be pushed to compete for Best Ranger Competition next year??

I say so!! :boohoo

mark46th

08-18-2015, 08:19

It took a Genral to pass them. How many others with a Ranger Tab had a general be their grader. Twice.

Yeah, I love their fair and equal treatment.

Team Sergeant

08-18-2015, 09:02

I'm sure the Army Rangers are loving it..........:munchin

Hope and Change, got enough yet?

Unique Calling

08-18-2015, 09:19

I had hope to attend one day. Not any more. I would much prefer to earn the chance to participate in the Lancero Course in Colombia... one day.

MR2

08-18-2015, 10:03

I had hope to attend one day. Not any more. I would much prefer to earn the chance to participate in the Lancero Course in Colombia... one day.

Don't be a dumb ass. If you get the opportunity to attend, YOU ATTEND! If your combat arms, you FIGHT for the opportunity!

Mills

08-18-2015, 10:07

I'm sure the Army Rangers are loving it..........:munchin

Hope and Change, got enough yet?

Two words that should be fucking banned.

Richard

08-18-2015, 10:21

Sounds like it's TBD to me.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2015/0818/As-first-two-women-pass-Ranger-School-Army-faces-big-questions

Richard

sinjefe

08-18-2015, 10:34

^^^^^Pro-female rangers article (IMO). Citing COL Haring in this debate is the same as citing Cecile Richards in the abortion debate.

Streck-Fu

08-18-2015, 10:34

Given that two women have now passed Ranger School and proven they are qualified to serve in the Army’s Ranger Regiment – the elite Special Operations branch of the service

Granted, I wasn't Army much less tabbed....but I don't think it works that way. And far too much of the public discussion about these two women revolves around the misunderstanding that they did not go through Ranger selection and that Ranger school is a separate entity from the Regiment.

Pete

08-18-2015, 10:34

Well, they did graduate.

Whatever some may say about the selection process, recycles, and any other items - the two passed.

The female tears will come later when not so much "in the news" females start attending the course and you have some real stunning drop out rates.

Hand

08-18-2015, 11:07

The two female Ranger students left in Ranger School will be the first women to ever graduate from the grueling course Friday.

The confirmation comes a day after a report from Havok Journal, which stated that President Barack Obama was set to attend the ceremony, prompting speculations that the commander-in-chief would likely not choose to attend, unless at least one woman was going to graduate.

It appears that the guess was accurate. Out of a total of 19 initial female students, two women, not just one, will graduate come Friday at Fort Benning, Ga., and be allowed to wear the Ranger Tab, though because gender integration is still in the experimental phase, these women will not join the 75th Ranger Regiment, The Washington Post reports.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/17/two-female-ranger-students-set-to-graduate-obama-will-attend-friday-ceremony/#ixzz3jBefIjTF

The head muslim in charge will make the trip to Ft. Benning it seems.

I think it's pretty cool that my buddy will graduate in front of a President, I think it sucks that the only reason the President will be there is to put his mushroom stamp of approval on the foreheads of the female graduates.

That said, these young men (and women :rolleyes:) have fought through some unique circumstances this class, my buddy in particular made it even after getting struck by lightening and spending a couple days in the ER. I'm looking forward to watching the ceremony!

:lifter

Team Sergeant

08-18-2015, 11:41

Granted, I wasn't Army much less tabbed....but I don't think it works that way. And far too much of the public discussion about these two women revolves around the misunderstanding that they did not go through Ranger selection and that Ranger school is a separate entity from the Regiment.

Yeah, that's the new Ranger cry, "Well, Well Ranger Regiment is different!"

Don't look too far into the future do you..... Even Stevie Wonder can see what coming next.

Those females have now earned the right to enter Regiment if they so desire. They just need to fix up a female latrine first.

Streck-Fu

08-18-2015, 11:53

Unique Calling

08-18-2015, 12:00

Don't be a dumb ass. If you get the opportunity to attend, YOU ATTEND! If your combat arms, you FIGHT for the opportunity!

Point taken. Maybe it's just that my (younger) brother, who is an 11B from 3rd BN, will not accept the "new" tab as valid. ;)

Razor

08-18-2015, 12:15

Give it a few months, when the guys that were in these females squads have moved to their units and recovered a bit, and the stories of what really happened start to surface. We'll then learn how often the women were in weapons squad, or served as RTO, or if their leadership GO came from being PL during planning, Actions On, or during patrol base activities (yeah, there are big differences between them). A year or two down the road, as the RIs aren't under the thumb of ARTB from PCS's or retirements and we might even hear if there were instances of command pressure to pass or not, or how the peers actually went.

No matter if the women didn't get any special assistance or not, they'll always be looked at askance and people will wonder if they TRULY earned their tabs.

Hand

08-18-2015, 12:27

From Unique_Calling's link

Unlike the 94 men who will graduate Friday, the two women won't be allowed to apply to join the join the 75th Ranger Regiment, the elite Special Operations force.

... So all this hubub over two women making it through Ranger School who can never join the Bat. Wth.

The Reaper

08-18-2015, 13:14

... So all this hubub over two women making it through Ranger School who can never join the Bat.

YET.

Fixed that for you.

TR

SF0

08-18-2015, 13:22

Yeah, that's the new Ranger cry, "Well, Well Ranger Regiment is different!"

Don't look too far into the future do you..... Even Stevie Wonder can see what coming next.

Those females have now earned the right to enter Regiment if they so desire. They just need to fix up a female latrine first.

Exactly, which is why every civilian news rag throws that silly little comment about the Regiment at the end of all their related articles. Makes as much sense as saying though some basic trainees graduated medic AIT, they will not be allowed to immediately enter Special Forces as 18D's- unless you consider their true agenda, a vision that will be seen executed over the long run. Those lines are mistaken by those who know the difference between the school and the Regiment as simple journalistic stupidity, but they're actually intended to make ignorant John Public think "That is not fair, they passed Ranger school, so they should be Rangers!", increasing public pressure on military leaders to forward that agenda of a PC military.

Roguish Lawyer

08-18-2015, 13:31

Found an assignment for them: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3197565/They-rape-kill-Yazidi-singer-forms-female-fighting-unit-revenge-ISIS-forcing-sisters-sexual-slavery-beheading-brothers.html

:munchin

Sdiver

08-18-2015, 14:41

So is this going to be their new tab?

:munchin

MR2

08-18-2015, 16:48

Point taken. Maybe it's just that my (younger) brother, who is an 11B from 3rd BN, will not accept the "new" tab as valid. ;)

No, you are missing the point - it is not for the tab!

Noslack71

08-18-2015, 16:56

I am going to paraphrase Donne's quote a bit here. ("Don't ask for whom the Bell Tolls, it tolls for Thee!") :munch in

Noslack

Roguish Lawyer

08-18-2015, 18:58

http://www.havokjournal.com/nation/just-announced-seal-teams-to-allow-women/

blacksmoke

08-18-2015, 20:35

Wonder if these new Rangers will be competing in Best Ranger someday as MtnG said, or ever see combat? I wonder when the Marines will find some women to pass their Infantry Officer course?:munchin

Razor

08-18-2015, 22:05

So now that we have proof that women can do anything men do, what's the timeline for eliminating the female standards on the APFT and in the Army Body Composition Program?

Mills

08-18-2015, 22:26

So now that we have proof that women can do anything men do, what's the timeline for eliminating the female standards on the APFT and in the Army Body Composition Program?

Along with the selective service.

Maybe we should change the Olympics as well.

PSM

08-18-2015, 22:51

Maybe we should change the Olympics as well.

And men's right to have babies. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c) :D

Pat

Box

08-19-2015, 05:27

I'm having menstrual cramps...

Richard

08-19-2015, 06:36

Sympathy pains, Billy. Take two M&Ms and go on sick call in the morning if they persist. :D

Kudos to these two soldiers, their classmates, and the RTB for appearing to have weathered a s**tstorm of a situation with professionalism. Perhaps the service has learned something from the lessons of CPT Wilder's fiasco.

http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/time-to-welcome-a-new-era-of-rangers-army/?fb_action_ids=10207239723901256&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B922496807794092%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.comments%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

Everyone knows that completing Ranger training and being recognized for having done that is one thing, as many from all branches of the service have done and will continue to do, but that serving in a Ranger designated unit is quite another. I'm not sure they fully realize the reality of the politicial situation they're now going to find themselves in as the issues of women in combat and serving in combat arms continue to be researched and evolve. But they soon will. It's not going away anytime soon and, like a number of other issues currently on the table ot there, it's only just begun.

And so it goes...

Richard

Hand

08-19-2015, 07:07

http://www.havokjournal.com/nation/just-announced-seal-teams-to-allow-women/

Navy Times quote Greenert as saying, “…we’re on a track to say, ‘Hey look, anybody can meet the gender non-specific standards, then you can become a SEAL.’”

Gender: the state of being male or female

Specific: : special or particular

Gender non-specific : the state of being male or female non-special or particular.

:confused:

Even the language of the progressive liberals is beyond reason.

1stindoor

08-19-2015, 07:09

When do the men have the opportunity to compete for a CST position?

ddoering

08-19-2015, 07:25

And men's right to have babies. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c) :D

Pat

That is already a reality. I crapped a democrat this morning. That low information voter is currently headed to the Potomac.:lifter

Box

08-19-2015, 07:25

When do the men have the opportunity to compete for a CST position?

...ha - its already open
We call it "civil affairs"

blue02hd

08-19-2015, 07:35

...ha - its already open
We call it "civil affairs"

Annnnnnnnd now I have orange juice on my laptop and dripping out my nose..

You can't use pink font Billy?

Box

08-19-2015, 07:46

I'm confused...
...why would you think I had any intention of using "pink font" for that last post?

In fact, based on my experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq, CA is a career field filled with folks that couldn't pass selection...

...CST selection

Again, notable is the absence of "pink font"
...bazinga

Guy

08-19-2015, 08:20

...ha - its already open
We call it "civil affairs"LMMFAO!!!!!:D

RoninSpartan

08-19-2015, 08:34

Sympathy pains, Billy. Take two M&Ms and go on sick call in the morning if they persist. :D

Kudos to these two soldiers, their classmates, and the RTB for appearing to have weathered a s**tstorm of a situation with professionalism. Perhaps the service has learned something from the lessons of CPT Wilder's fiasco.

http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/time-to-welcome-a-new-era-of-rangers-army/?fb_action_ids=10207239723901256&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B922496807794092%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.comments%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

Everyone knows that completing Ranger training and being recognized for having done that is one thing, as many from all branches of the service have done and will continue to do, but that serving in a Ranger designated unit is quite another. I'm not sure they fully realize the reality of the politicial situation they're now going to find themselves in as the issues of women in combat and serving in combat arms continue to be researched and evolve. But they soon will. It's not going away anytime soon and, like a number of other issues currently on the table out there, it's only just begun.

And so it goes...

Richard

They were not subjected to peer review. The females did not have to carry ammo or heavy weapons. Ranger Instructors all had to sign a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreenment.) How is that even fair?

Box

08-19-2015, 08:45

They were not subjected to peer review. The females did not have to carry ammo or heavy weapons. Ranger Instructors all had to sign a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreenment.) How is that even fair?

That's great to know...
Perhaps you should share with us how you got this information.

Was it from someone that signed a NDA?

edited to correct fat finger keyboard stroke

Box

08-19-2015, 09:01

...well then it must be true.

UWOA (RIP)

08-19-2015, 09:18

That's great to know...
Perhaps you should share with us how you got this information.

Was it from someone that signed a NDS?

Billy,

Would that be NDS = Non Disclosure Semen?

.

Box

08-19-2015, 09:26

Billy,

Would that be NDS = Non Disclosure Semen?

.

touche'
fat fingered the keyboard...

corrected in original post

UWOA (RIP)

08-19-2015, 09:27

touche'
fat fingered the keyboard...

corrected in original post

Billy,

Quit bragging about how big your 'finger' is .... LOL!!!!

.

frostfire

08-19-2015, 19:05

Roguish Lawyer

08-19-2015, 19:18

A Ranger CSM involved in this just said the following to me:

I have been on the advisory panel for this test since the start of the year. Also with me are 5 other retired Ranger Bn CSMs, two former Ranger Regiment CSMs, two former Ranger Bn Cdrs, a former SOCOM CG, and others. The standards were not changed for these classes (6-15/7-15/8-15), nor were these women afforded anything but an opportunity to pass (or, in most cases, fail) on their own.

:munchin

sinjefe

08-19-2015, 20:01

PRB

08-19-2015, 20:39

Miles

08-19-2015, 21:20

It will be interesting to follow the continuing service of these women.

How has the last 4 months affected them physically. Not just in the short term, but long term effects too and how will that affect their careers?

abc_123

08-19-2015, 21:27

Did the "chosen females" have to carry a MG or MG ammo up the continental divide?

Did they get meaningful "go's" on patrolls or were they put in charge of the easy missions?

Who were their lane graders? NCOs or officers subject to political pressure?

Were they peered? ... without undue influence?

SF_BHT

08-19-2015, 22:13

All I can say is this puts it all in perspective....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0HmT5jqy-iE

Pete

08-20-2015, 07:09

"..A pilot of attack helicopters who competed in triathlons and a wilderness enthusiast who became a military police officer because it was the closest she could get to a combat job are the first women to finish the Army's elite Ranger School..."

They graduated - but I believe they are the top tier of women in the military. The numbers will be terrible when it's opened to every female and then will start the calls to "fix" it.

http://www.fayobserver.com/news/nation/army-pilot-military-cop-are-first-women-to-pass-ranger/article_24cac70d-44e5-594d-a6cd-1569d28afb64.html

mark46th

08-20-2015, 08:03

ABC 123- Their lane grader was General Miller who flew in especially for them...

abc_123

08-20-2015, 08:26

ABC 123- Their lane grader was General Miller who flew in especially for them...

Ok. Got it. That pretty much answers all the questions. Even though they were mostly rhetorical anyway.

Team Sergeant

08-20-2015, 08:44

Destroy what scares you the most, America's Special Operations units.

Rangers are first in the lineup. Mission complete.

Next? SEALS ? I'd go after the AF PJ's, no reason they all cannot be females anyway....;) Besides their voices sound better on the radio.

craigepo

08-20-2015, 08:53

I have a question for some of the guys that have attended Ranger school recently. Here is the background for my question:

I went to Ranger School in class 9-90 from 2/75. I went through Pre-Ranger at Fort Benning, then directly to Ranger School the next day. Ranger School at that time was 68 days, and had 4 phases; Benning, Dahlonega (Mountains), Swamp (Eglin), and Desert (Dugway, UT). To give you an exact time frame, when we were travelling from Dahlonega to Eglin, we were informed that the previous day, Iraq had invaded Kuwait.

During the class, if we were mountaineering, doing airborne operations, or conducting live fires, we had mandatory four hours sleep the night before. Otherwise, I seem to remember 1-2 hours being the norm, with the second hour being if you snuck in a nap with your Ranger buddy pulling security while mission planning was being conducted.

It seems that if we were around barracks, i.e. city week in Benning or mountaineering in Dahlonega, we had 2 meals per day (blueberry pancakes in Dahlonega were the best Army chow ever). When patrolling, we had one MRE per day.

As far as loads, we carried M-16s and M-60s. Rucksacks weighed approximately 50 pounds, with the weight increasing if you had RTO duty (PRC-77), if you had the medic bag, machine gun ammo, etc. We only wore K-pots if we were mountaineering, airborne operations, or live firing. The only body armor at the time was the old flak vest, which we never wore, and I doubt was even in Ranger School's inventory.

When I arrived at Ranger School, I was in very good soldiering shape, rather lean, was 6'0" tall and weighed about 185 pounds. After finishing the phase at Eglin, I weighed about 140 pounds. I was very emaciated, and all of us could smell the odor of our bodies digesting muscles (can't remember the medical term for this).

When we were at Dugway, I remember my feet were tough enough to run across gravel with bare feet, and not feel a thing. I also remember my maximum number of push-ups was 2 or 3, depending on the day. It took me approximately one year to get back 100% PT-wise.

As to grading, each student was graded on two patrols per phase. You had to receive a "go" in at least one patrol. Grades were given for planning, actions on the objective, and patrol base (I think). Students also conducted peer reviews at the end of each phase. If everybody in the squad worked hard, the squad would figure out a way to game the system, otherwise somebody got shitcanned at the end of the phase.

My question is this---has Ranger School changed a lot since that time? I understand Dugway is no longer a phase, but I am talking about the physical demands of the course, as well as the grading process.

Thanks

abc_123

08-20-2015, 10:54

I have a question for some of the guys that have attended Ranger school recently. Here is the background for my question:

I went to Ranger School in class 9-90 from 2/75....

My question is this---has Ranger School changed a lot since that time? I understand Dugway is no longer a phase, but I am talking about the physical demands of the course, as well as the grading process.

Thanks

I am not recent, but I could definately tell the difference in the two times that I was at Ranger School. I started in class 2-91. Recycled Florida and then med dropped. I was 5'11' 194ish stripped going in and when before shipping back to benning to get booted out i think i was something like 170ish with my BDUs and boots on. I remember it as you say. In fla i could see all my ribs, belly-button poking OUT and could see veins everywhere due to the lack of subcutaneous fat. During our 2 week cycle break in fla, i remember them forming us recycles up for PT and trying to make us do push ups. I think i couldn't even do 5. Then the tried to have us run. I think we made it 1/4 of a mile before the formation literally fell apart. The RI's then realized it was pointless and we walked back and stretched (e.g. layed in the grass) for a while. I got asked for my SSN at the Eglin AFB hospital and I could barely remember it. (it took me 3 tries to even get the proper number of digits).

Went back in 95-96 ish after language school other than the run and the road march during city week I found it easier. The misery level was lower, I lost weight, but I was not emaciated like the first time. Some of it being easier was probably due to the fact that I had minimal self-induced stress and was well versed in the whole patrolling thing and checking all the blocks to get gos. I also was not there in the winter the second time around. The ruck up mt Yonah was not a death speed march trying to generate fallouts. It was simply a walk. I do not remember much gratuitous PT during the climbing on Mt Yonah either. I rmember In 91, the walk up the continental divide being another speed ruck. Not so much in 95. We did not do capsize drills etc. either. I do not rember people walking into trees etc. from sleep deprivation like in '91. The second time for some reason they abbreviated the long walk thru the swamps to the boats for the paddle to Santa Rosa Island... We never had to paddle across the intercoastal. I can't speak to the grading. I had issues the first go round as a young 2LT. Didn't have any issues the second time. All gos on patrols and I was perpetually the RTO, Medic etc. and was flat out asked by RIs to help out certain young Batt boys on occasion.

I also had an RI recognize me from my first try...and had another RI recognize me in FL that was in my platoon as a student in 1991. Fun times.

that's my story.

Richard

08-20-2015, 11:50

^^^^^I am friends with a CPT who worked in the S3 shop of ARTB. He says that, while the standards might not be different, that there were more GOs, CODELs and press during this than you can shake a stick at and that, a few times, these GOs "walked behind RIs". If true, I'd call that undue command influence.

If a GO walked a lane behind an RI on a graded patrol then the CSM's that made that statement have their heads up their asses.

That is def undue influence.

GO's often visited Mackall during SFAS and observed common events ( log drill etc.) but to my knowledge never 'walked patrols' in search of more candidates passing.

FWIW - from the RTB's XO:

<snip>Frustrated with the sniping, Maj. Jim Hathaway, the No. 2 official in the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade overseeing Ranger School, took to Facebook to respond. No matter what Ranger School officials say, he said, some people will never give the women credit.

"We could have invited each of you to guest walk the entire course, and you would still not believe," he wrote. "We could have video recorded every patrol and you would still say that we 'gave' it away. Nothing we say will change your opinion."<snip>

<snip>6. The commanding general [Editor's note: Miller] walked a patrol in each phase of Class 8-15. It was his 30th anniversary of attending Ranger School. He intentionally did not walk a patrol that a female was being graded on to ensure there was no conflict of interest. The infantry commandant [Editor's note: Rainey for most of the female soldiers' time at Ranger School] has walked patrols and so has the CG. This is not unprecedented.

7. Observer/Advisors — This subject has caused a lot of consternation. They are non-grading cadre [of women] who were assigned to the RTB to help. They had no authority and they worked for the chain of command.

8. The ridiculous rumor that President Obama was coming to this graduation and that RIs were told to pass them before they even started Florida is absolutely false. He isn't/wasn't coming to graduation. [Editor's note: A White House official confirmed that is accurate.]<snip>

http://www.stripes.com/news/army/ranger-school-official-combats-rumors-about-how-women-passed-training-1.363823

Richard

sinjefe

08-20-2015, 12:19

^^^^^Here's what I read: "These are not the droids you're looking for".

Nothing to see here, move along.

PRB

08-20-2015, 12:46

Question: Was the CG there walking patrols on the day(s) these two were having graded patrols?

Roguish Lawyer

08-20-2015, 13:12

Question: Was the CG there walking patrols on the day(s) these two were having graded patrols?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/08/20/ranger-school-officer-combats-rumors-about-how-women-passed-in-pointed-facebook-post/

:munchin

sinjefe

08-20-2015, 13:19

^^^^^That's the same article Richard was citing.

Their just saying: "Nothing to see here, move along."

Pete

08-20-2015, 13:21

First two - and everybody has forgotten the third.

Isn't a female SSG still in the course? Last I heard she was recycled in Mountains.

If she graduates she'll get the "been there done that" from the press.

Team Sergeant

08-20-2015, 13:47

They are set for life (when they write their books of course).

Soon the female Ranger quotas will begin and the standards will be lowered.

If you don't think so look no farther than your local police/fire departments. The standards were lowered to accommodate women.

Hope and Change....... Zero is laughing his ass off right now.

miclo18d

08-21-2015, 06:22

I started in class 2-91.

Holy crap! I was 3-91 "Christams Rangers" we pushed through TRADOC courses during Desert Shield. I literally led a squad recon pratrol on Christmas Eve, up Hogs Back Ridge in Mtn phase.

You were probably in FLA when my class got there!

Everything you stated for that class, and mine, was true and we still had desert phase. Dugway in January was no joke. I was 140 when I started, 0% body fat, and I lost 10 pounds that I didn't have! All muscle weight.

3-91 started with around 300 people and graduated like close to 80 including recycles.

Just as ABC said, when I got back to Rgr Batt, we went on an 8 mile run and I almost fell out (I was always a runner, this run was always a joke to me) just because Rgr school had destroyed my body. (My 1SG warned me not to fall out since I just earned my tab, I made it but barely. (mind over matter on that one)

bailaviborita

08-21-2015, 08:45

Second Lt. Michael V. Janowski's assessment Thursday of how he would have done in Ranger School without the partner assigned to him was blunt: "I probably wouldn't be sitting here right now if it wasn't for Shaye," he said.
Janowski inadvertently found himself in the middle of the intense attention paid to his class because he was assigned to be the "Ranger buddy" of 1st Lt. Shaye Haver, who will become one of the first two Ranger School female graduates on Friday. He described a night in the mountains of northern Georgia in July in which he was struggling to carry all of the machine-gun ammunition he was assigned, and Haver assisting when other men in their group would not.

So maybe the new melinial generation is different---- weaker and not minding women carrying them. I just couldn't imagine the same when I went through.

sinjefe

08-21-2015, 08:54

"I probably wouldn't be sitting here right now if it wasn't for Shaye," he said.

Geez. :rolleyes:

Team Sergeant

08-21-2015, 10:02

So maybe the new melinial generation is different---- weaker and not minding women carrying them. I just couldn't imagine the same when I went through.

It's a new world. A land of pillow-biting, white knuckle metrosextuals has arrived.

Roguish Lawyer

08-21-2015, 10:17

On the lighter side: http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/08/female-rangers/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel%20Blog&utm_content=REPORT:%20Female%20Ranger%20Grads%20Go ing%20To%20Crush%20So%20Much%20Fucking%20Pussy%20T his%20Weekend

levinj

08-21-2015, 10:21

PRB

08-21-2015, 10:58

With respect, gentlemen, what evidence would you accept? The XO of ARTB has come out in defense of his NCOs, which seems fair enough. The Ranger Buddy of 1LT Haver has said she was willing to help a buddy out when no one else was.

It seems to me that there's little more to be said, except for offering these two officers our congratulations.

We get that, a fine soldier.
My issue is all of the prep and 'special attn' all of the female candidates had prior to the course...the 'observers', special meds (anti biotic daily regimen for UTI's), the abnormal train up after the weeding out.

If they had shown up and gone thru like everyone else then there would be no issues.

sinjefe

08-21-2015, 11:02

We get that, a fine soldier.
My issue is all of the prep and 'special attn' all of the female candidates had prior to the course...the 'observers', special meds (anti biotic daily regimen for UTI's), the abnormal train up after the weeding out.

If they had shown up and gone thru like everyone else then there would be no issues.

This has been stated and re-stated by people like you and I (and others on this board). There are a group of people who simply will not see what actually occurred and can NEVER be convinced otherwise.

Don't believe your lying eyes.

PRB

08-21-2015, 13:19

tom kelly

08-21-2015, 14:34

AFTER ALL THE BS PROS & CONS QUESTION IS CAN THEY LEAD & MORE IMPORTANTLY CAN THEY FIGHT? IF THEY CAN , WHY ARE THEY NOT GOING TO THE 75th RANGER REGIMENT. OR A COMBAT DIV. eg 82nd AIRBORNE THAT HAS RANGERS IN THE BCT'S COMPANIES? WELL ACCORDING TO THE C GEN OF ALL INFANTRY TRAINING Maj.Gen.Scott Miller FEMALES CANNOT GO TO COMBAT UNITS. WELL THE U S ARMY IS NOW POLITICALLY CORRECT/ Capt.GRIEST & Lt HAVER went to RANGER TRAINING " TO OPEN DOORS FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS OF WOMAN" GUESS THAT ANSWERS MY QUESTION EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS "SOCIAL EXPERIMENT" IS DOING IT TO APPEASE THE PROGRESSIVE LIBERALS IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND FROM BHO DOWN THE LINE To Col. DAVE FIVECOAT WHO IS LOOKING FOR THAT 1st STAR. WONDER WHAT IS COMING NEXT, THE FIRST FEMALE NAVY SEAL OR THE 2nd FEMALE GREEN BERET?????? (KATE WILDER WAS THE 1st FEMALE GB ) AFTER A LAWSUIT THAT GAVE (NOT AWARDED) A GREEN BERET PROVIDED SHE NEVER SERVE 1 DAY ON IN SPECIAL FORCES ON AN A TEAM. tom kelly

craigepo

08-21-2015, 15:44

Holy crap! I was 3-91 "Christams Rangers" we pushed through TRADOC courses during Desert Shield. I literally led a squad recon pratrol on Christmas Eve, up Hogs Back Ridge in Mtn phase.

You were probably in FLA when my class got there!

Everything you stated for that class, and mine, was true and we still had desert phase. Dugway in January was no joke. I was 140 when I started, 0% body fat, and I lost 10 pounds that I didn't have! All muscle weight.

3-91 started with around 300 people and graduated like close to 80 including recycles.

Just as ABC said, when I got back to Rgr Batt, we went on an 8 mile run and I almost fell out (I was always a runner, this run was always a joke to me) just because Rgr school had destroyed my body. (My 1SG warned me not to fall out since I just earned my tab, I made it but barely. (mind over matter on that one)

I am starting to get the impression that Ranger School has changed a lot. Of course, we're talking 25 years ago.

You know, maybe it's better that they don't starve the students now, like they did back then. Is it necessary that soldiers lose that much weight for Ranger School?

Nonetheless, I guess I have been puzzled as to how these female soldiers passed Ranger School, but I was imputing the old standards and not the new. Hell, if you're not starving, and get a couple more hours sleep per day, it wouldn't be that hard.

Richard

08-21-2015, 16:01

I'll take it a bit further from a Command point of view.

Many here that think the outcome fair point to the excellent RI's that run the school...they are not the borg, they are individually thinkers/doers.

Then why didn't the Chain of Command trust them?

Why the 'female' observers etc?

The CofCmd didn't have the balls to run a normal course because they were afraid...so they put extra elements in place.

When the Command demonstrates obvious lack of trust in it's soldiers then undue Command influence is already at play.

Every RI that ran a female patrol knew he was under double secret probation and you cannot tell me that doesn't come with influence.

From what I understand, this was a TEST to gather data and there is to be one more TEST class with female students. Once the TEST is concluded, the data will be used to then make a determination as to whether or not to continue the program.

Just like when SFAS and SERE were under development, all the "extra elements" were there to help prepare, monitor, and evaluate the collected data as objectively as possible inre to the program's given operating conditions and desired outcomes.

It will be interesting to see what the TBD longitudinal data for this shows a couple of years down the road.

Richard

PRB

08-21-2015, 16:14

The Reaper

08-21-2015, 16:20

bailaviborita

08-21-2015, 17:19

Of course, to me all the metrics collection is crap. War is not simply measured with data. Being successful in a highly controlled field environment training exercise does not equal combat or the ability to lead a combat arms unit over the long haul. Ok- maybe one or two females can lead some men who can't haul 60 lbs on two meals a day. Just like being on a CST doesn't equal combat or SOF...

We can't guarantee that every female- or male- gets a 100% fair and objective shake in all elite or combat arms training. So the natural effect will be disruption as the SHARP stuff and all the shenanigans that go with coed proximity in garrison take place. Of course we can aim for celibate Paladins - but how many of those exist and do those domesticated animals have a more aggressive manner about them? While we seem to enjoy a tech advantage that largely has allowed us to get away from relying on meat-eating to win battles- will that always be the case? This social experiment relies on a feminist theory on the future of warfare that is highly questionable IMO: that you can win in combat without a traditional "hyper" macho male culture...

Razor

08-21-2015, 21:24

First, I totally believe 2LT Janowski when he attributes his success to 1LT Haver's assistance. The reason is that 2LT Janowski endured major surgery and 6 months of chemotherapy for Stage 4 embryonal carcinoma in the testicles, lungs and abdominal lymph nodes a month prior to entering IBOLC, followed immediately by entering Ranger School. I'd likely be happy to simply be able to get out of bed after all that, let alone attend Ranger School.

http://chrisjanowski.hubpages.com/hub/56-Weeks-In-The-Making

Second, if this whole situation was merely to allow female soldiers to get additional leadership training, then I wouldn't see any harm. However, anyone that's paid any attention to the news in the last 3-4 years should quickly recognize that this is merely an initial step in the larger plan to integrate women into direct combat roles, which will introduce a much larger and substantially more detrimental effect to the combat effectiveness of US military units.

Mills

08-21-2015, 23:02

What did it cost, in money and man-/woman-hours, to get two females (of 74,000 in the Army) through Ranger School, and how does that compare to the cost of putting two men through?

What is the return on investment, and what is the justification?

Ultimately, I would like to see the long-term health of the students tracked from military service through the VA and any adverse effects or injuries recorded.

I have a hunch we are going to be seeing a lot of medical expenses for this in second and third order effects, not to mention pain and suffering.

TR

I think we all know that they will immediately collect between 60 and 80% disability upon retirement. When it comes to to separate, I am sure that they will play the female card once again.

Just like anyting with this entire nut roll, selfishness is prevalent.

craigepo

08-22-2015, 07:07

Second, if this whole situation was merely to allow female soldiers to get additional leadership training, then I wouldn't see any harm. However, anyone that's paid any attention to the news in the last 3-4 years should quickly recognize that this is merely an initial step in the larger plan to integrate women into direct combat roles, which will introduce a much larger and substantially more detrimental effect to the combat effectiveness of US military units.

I think you may be on to something. I didn't know that General Dempsey had issued the following order.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/19/marine-corps-weighs-lower-standards-for-women-afte/?page=all

Team Sergeant

08-22-2015, 10:34

I think you may be on to something. I didn't know that General Dempsey had issued the following order.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/19/marine-corps-weighs-lower-standards-for-women-afte/?page=all

Pressure grows on Marines to consider lowering combat standards for women

WOW we sure didn't see that coming.........:munchin :rolleyes:

Let's just give everyone a Gold Star and Sally, a Ranger Tab.

(This is what happens in a liberal/progressive/corrupt socialist world.)

(Mr. Trump, America needs you more than ever!)

Chairborne64

08-22-2015, 13:00

From what I understand, this was a TEST to gather data and there is to be one more TEST class with female students. Once the TEST is concluded, the data will be used to then make a determination as to whether or not to continue the program.

Just like when SFAS and SERE were under development, all the "extra elements" were there to help prepare, monitor, and evaluate the collected data as objectively as possible inre to the program's given operating conditions and desired outcomes.

It will be interesting to see what the TBD longitudinal data for this shows a couple of years down the road.

Richard

The message is already on the street for the 2nd class. I looked it up myself just to make sure. The class that starts 2 NOV will be the next "integrated" class. Of note it looks like there will be no Observer / Advisors (PC Commissars) this time around. Also a second message came out clarifying the fact that female volunteers still have to pass the RTAC before attending Ranger school. There are 3 RTAC courses between now and 2 NOV (Unlike the 6 that were in place for the last group). The first starts next Wed and the last 18 OCT. I will be very interested to see the turnout. The publicity is gone and 120 days + is a real long time to spend in Ranger school. Last time 138 started the process and 2 graduated for a crushing 1.5% graduation rate.

Mills

08-22-2015, 13:40

Pressure grows on Marines to consider lowering combat standards for women

WOW we sure didn't see that coming.........:munchin :rolleyes:

Let's just give everyone a Gold Star and Sally, a Ranger Tab.

(This is what happens in a liberal/progressive/corrupt socialist world.)

(Mr. Trump, America needs you more than ever!)

+1

(And Ted Cruz of course)

Richard

08-22-2015, 15:37

FWIW.

How It Really Went Down in the First Class to Graduate Female Rangers
RudyMac, SOFREP, 21 Aug 2015

http://sofrep.com/42761/really-happened-women-ranger-school-class-06-15/#ixzz3ja8tUbRn

Richard

DDD

08-22-2015, 16:39

The message is already on the street for the 2nd class. I looked it up myself just to make sure. The class that starts 2 NOV will be the next "integrated" class. Of note it looks like there will be no Observer / Advisors (PC Commissars) this time around. Also a second message came out clarifying the fact that female volunteers still have to pass the RTAC before attending Ranger school. There are 3 RTAC courses between now and 2 NOV (Unlike the 6 that were in place for the last group). The first starts next Wed and the last 18 OCT. I will be very interested to see the turnout. The publicity is gone and 120 days + is a real long time to spend in Ranger school. Last time 138 started the process and 2 graduated for a crushing 1.5% graduation rate.

I think your math is wrong on the graduation rate. Did you count every student that stared since time began for this little experiment? They keep counting the women again their current class, they should tally all classes they spent time in.

sinjefe

08-22-2015, 17:49

http://sofrep.com/42761/really-happened-women-ranger-school-class-06-15/#ixzz3ja8tUbRn

So, the author bonded with his classmates. To be expected, but hardly an unbiased review.

Richard

08-22-2015, 18:03

So, the author bonded with his classmates. To be expected, but hardly an unbiased review.

I wasn't there; he was.

Is ANY review 'unbiased'? :confused:

Richard

sinjefe

08-22-2015, 18:17

Good point. But I would have expected the students to bond and, then, have little negative to say about one another (unless one was clearly a douche). I'd like to hear what some of the RIs have to say

Old Dog New Trick

08-22-2015, 19:01

I wasn't there; he was.

Is ANY review 'unbiased'? :confused:

Richard

Apparently he wasn't either. He graduated with his class ahead of the two that finally made it. In other words he knows Jack and Jill went up the hill...but wasn't around to see what happened after.

Congrats to the two gals that completed the school and received their tabs. They earned it as much as any other "man" that has preceded them for sixty years. Good on them!

(I was an Infantry grunt before I was SF and the 2nd and 1st Lieutenants that came and went as Platoon Leaders all had finished "Ranger School" too. Boy was there a lot to learn about SUT that wasn't in FM7-8. :D )

School- a place of learning and testing new ideas. No one (should) die or be held to the ultimate accountability for failure in a school. I think that is what has most people hung up about integrating women into combat units. Really important decisions need to be made and lives and mission success hang in the balance. Can a woman do that? Sure! Can she lead the charge up the hill any better than the men who have? I don't know - let's find out.

Recycle until success- maybe that should be the standard for all service schools. Just think of the retention level attained.

Just my $0.02

Richard

08-22-2015, 19:05

Recycle until success- maybe that should be the standard for all service schools. Just think of the retention level attained.

It's the ages olde conundrum in the Army - do we train to time or do we train to task?

Richard

Old Dog New Trick

08-22-2015, 19:26

I thought it was train the task to standard and then maintain the standard.

I think these two should continue the momentum they have. Keep the "experiment" going and place them in direct front line combat units. Or, as the media believes they should have a shot at Ranger Regiment. If not, what was the point?

Richard

08-22-2015, 19:34

If not, what was the point?

Allowing them the opportunity to attempt the best possible small unit leadership training afforded their peers? :confused:

Richard

Old Dog New Trick

08-22-2015, 19:40

Allowing them the opportunity to attempt the best possible small unit leadership training afforded their peers? :confused:

Richard

Each of both of these ladies have a star in their future and I'd bet that is fast tracked if they keep their resumes clean.

Again, congrats to them!

Peregrino

08-23-2015, 19:23

Interesting Facebook post. There's a lot here I can empathize with. Now that two women have endured to the finish (neither more nor less than a lot of male lieutenants do), let's see how they comport themselves going forward. The horses are out of the barn, acrimonious diatribes about the motives of the cabal who forced the doors open can't negate that fact.

From: Nick Benzschawel <notification+kr4m4mrwqy5a@facebookmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 2:22 PM
To: SF Brothers
Subject: [SF Brothers] LADY RANGERS AND THE NOISE HEARD ROUND THE WORLD!...

Nick Benzschawel

August 23 at 2:22pm

LADY RANGERS AND THE NOISE HEARD ROUND THE WORLD! Many of you have asked me for my take on this, and I have opted to wait for a bit and let cooler heads prevail. With that being said... LADY RANGERS! I can't recollect seeing a more polarizing event in all my days affiliated with the military. Some basic facts: I have twenty-four years of service in the Army. I have served in the 75th Ranger Regiment, I have served in Special Forces (The "Green Beret's" for the uninitiated), and I have also served in conventional units that had both men and women. That is key when addressing this topic because you have to have proper insight and reality. Firstly? How can you fault those two women for wanting to participate in a program that evokes excellence? In no way shape or form should we denigrate these two women. They were approached and offered the opportunity to take the ultimate challenge - where the threat of life, limb, and failure is a probable outcome. SOLDIERS HAVE DIED IN RANGER SCHOOL! There are men amongst us, who have the privilege of wearing the Ranger Tab, a mark of achievement, and yet amongst the acknowledgement of their peers... They didn't earn it. Where are the cries of justice for those shortcomings? To say these two women didn't earn their tab, at this juncture, is conditional semantics. My tip of the hat, and salute to those two women. Now the reality... The real problem is OUR LEADERS! We have lost the initiative on that front. Some of you have castigated other Rangers for their less than receptive posture concerning these women. Rangers have been, and should be allowed to vent; preferably in a tone that doesn't crush two women for having aspirations. Some of our Ranger brothers are upset because the Ranger community has been the proverbial whipping post for the Army, dare I say military. Some of you have made terse corrections on certain people for their supposed lack of respect for senior officers, legends, and self entitled "know-it-alls" that wear the Ranger Tab. Funny... I remember A LOT of you who went berserk, and became volatile over General Shinseki's crass, cheap, underhanded theft of the Army Ranger's legendary symbol... The Black Beret. He took that honored Ranger beret and made it the standard issue headgear for the ENTIRE ARMY! The Ranger Regiment was told to simply "Pick another color beret." The choices were few, and the tan beret is now the official headgear of the 75th Ranger Regiment. Shinseki, a four star "Ranger Qualified tab wearer," supposedly one of our own, opted to take such a foul, vulgar, visceral cut at something so sacred within our community, that the words "Treason" and "Banishment" were referred to this loathsome individual. OUR LEADERSHIP SUPPORTED THIS! I was there at Fort Benning the day they made the 75th Ranger Regiment officially change the berets. You could see tears of sadness and anger! Guess who was there to empirically oversee this mandated act? None other than "The Honorable Eric J Shinseki" - General... Ranger... Blue Falcon. At that event, I watched CSM (Ret) Donald R Purdy, a Ranger legend, as well as other Rangers, stand up and turn their back on the proceedings. RESPECT IS EARNED NOT ISSUED! How about the ACU uniform? The queen mother of all bad ideas! Who made that punitive dent in the tax-payers pockets, and made our presence an easy target that stood out in combat theatre? OUR LEADERSHIP! "Blackhawk Down," Somalia, October 3rd 1993. A sad day, where we had to endure 73 casualties and 18 deaths of our best 75th Rangers, Delta Force, Task Force 160, STS, and DevGru operators. From our TV's, we had front row seats, and watched in horror as our Ranger family members were drug down the streets of Mogadishu by savages. Task Force Ranger requested one Spectre gunship, and armored personnel carriers for this mission. Guess what? Denied! Why? Because OUR LEADERS said that the requested force protection package was "Too provocative." There is no doubt that the Spectre gunship and APC's would have saved lives that day! Shall I continue with more tales of leadership? Sure, one more... This one is infuriating! In early September 2011, at a remote outpost, a young Afghan boy and his Afghan-Uzbek mother showed up at a Special Forces camp. The 12-year-old showed the Green Berets where his hands had been tied. A medic took him to a back room for an examination with an interpreter, who told them the boy had been raped by another commander by the name of Abdul Rahman. After learning of the meeting, Rahman allegedly beat the boy's mother for reporting the crime. It was at this point, two of the Green Berets, CPT Quinn and SFC Martland, had enough, and went to confront Rahman. "He confessed to the crime and laughed about it, and said it wasn't a big deal. Even when we patiently explained to Rahman how serious the charge was, he kept laughing," Quinn said. According to reports of the incident, Quinn and Martland shoved Abdul Rahman to the ground. It was the only way to get their point across, according to Quinn. "As a man, as a father of a young boy myself at the time, I felt obliged to step in to prevent further repeat occurrences," Quinn said. Rahman walked away bruised from getting shoved and thrown to the ground, but otherwise okay, according to teammates. But Rahman quickly reported the incident to another Army unit in a nearby village. The next day a U.S. Army helicopter landed and took Quinn and Martland away, ending their work in Kunduz Province. For the next few weeks, both soldiers remained in Afghanistan but were not allowed to continue their mission. They were given temporary jobs in Mazar-i-Sharif in northern Afghanistan and later in Herat. Pending the outcome of the investigation, both men were relieved from their positions and sent home. Their war was over. Quinn has since left the Army and started a job on Wall Street. Martland, though, has been FIGHTING TO STAY IN THE ARMY. In February 2015, the Army conducted a "Qualitative Management Program" review board. His supporters suspect because Martland had a "relief for cause" evaluation in his service record, the U.S. Army ordered Martland to be "involuntary discharged" from the Army by Nov. 1, 2015. SFC Martland is known amongst his peers as one of the finest soldiers in the US Army. Now? He suffers not only the personal indignity of being kicked out for doing the right thing, but also the looming knowledge that his fellow soldiers are being held accountable to a leadership that is so far gone from its warrior roots that the assurance of our operational effectiveness, and the safety of our sons AND DAUGHTERS is compromised. This isn't about two women who actually pursued a goal. Its about US! We, the men and women, of the armed forces are on the chopping block. We have become a PC social experiment gone mad, where the needs of the few, grossly outweigh the needs of the many; this in an occupation where people die. We are in trouble. If you went to SERE school you'll remember being told to "Insulate, NOT isolate"? More than ever before, the Ranger body as a whole, has to come together and do what we have been famous for... TAKING CARE OF OUR OWN! If bludgeoning these two women is the endstate? I'll have no part of it. I am inclined to believe that the 75th Ranger Regiment is a special operations unit that is best suited to operate and function in a male centric configuration. Ranger school is NOT the 75th Ranger Regiment! It is the premiere, toughest leadership school in the whole military, and IF a woman chooses to attend it? Best of luck, as long as the standards have not been lowered. Final thoughts: To "The Good Idea Fairy" leaders who hold our lives in our hands? Congratulations! Tell Mr and Mrs America that their military age daughter has to now report to the post office for selective service registration at a time of war, rape, and beheadings. I'm sure the accolades will shower upon thee greatly. To my fellow Rangers & 75th Rangers? A quote: "Do Right and Fear Not!" Do "Ranger Right" and not "Ranger Wrong." To the Rangers I hold in high regard? Douglas Greenway, Craig Owens, Lt. General Mike Ferriter, Andrew-Rhonda McIlquham, Taft Yates, CSM Leon Guerrero, Lt. General "Smoking" Joe Anderson, Carlos Rodriguez, Jeff Bia Jackson , Bernie Folino, Matt Watters, Peter Quintanilla, Jeremy Brown, Max Mullen, Greg Hamilton, Bert Puckett, General Stanley McChrystal, Shane Flint, Col. Gregory Allen, Tom Bigley and so many others... Thank you gentlemen. As for the two new Lady Rangers? Remember the last scene in "Saving Private Ryan" where <2> Ranger Captain Miller (Tom Hanks) is slowly dying on the battlefield where his fellow Rangers died in order to save Private Ryan? Remember what his whispering, dying words were to Private Ryan? "Earn This!" You'll find that the hardest thing about the Ranger tab is wearing it, not going to a school for it. The eyes of the world are upon you! Take what you've learned and make a better Army! To my Ranger Buddies that are not in this earthly realm? I think of you often, and guarantee you that some day, not to soon I hope, I'll have that drink with you in Valhalla. There are Tab wearers and Tab bearers... Which one are you? God Bless you all. RLTW-DOL ~SN - B co 2/75 & Ranger School Class 14-89

PSM

08-23-2015, 21:54

If I may, Peregrino, I made it a little easier for those of us with old eyes to read your post. ;)

LADY RANGERS AND THE NOISE HEARD ROUND THE WORLD! Many of you have asked me for my take on this, and I have opted to wait for a bit and let cooler heads prevail. With that being said... LADY RANGERS! I can't recollect seeing a more polarizing event in all my days affiliated with the military.

Some basic facts: I have twenty-four years of service in the Army. I have served in the 75th Ranger Regiment, I have served in Special Forces (The "Green Beret's" for the uninitiated), and I have also served in conventional units that had both men and women. That is key when addressing this topic because you have to have proper insight and reality.

Firstly? How can you fault those two women for wanting to participate in a program that evokes excellence? In no way shape or form should we denigrate these two women. They were approached and offered the opportunity to take the ultimate challenge - where the threat of life, limb, and failure is a probable outcome. SOLDIERS HAVE DIED IN RANGER SCHOOL!

There are men amongst us, who have the privilege of wearing the Ranger Tab, a mark of achievement, and yet amongst the acknowledgement of their peers... They didn't earn it. Where are the cries of justice for those shortcomings? To say these two women didn't earn their tab, at this juncture, is conditional semantics. My tip of the hat, and salute to those two women. Now the reality...

The real problem is OUR LEADERS! We have lost the initiative on that front. Some of you have castigated other Rangers for their less than receptive posture concerning these women. Rangers have been, and should be allowed to vent; preferably in a tone that doesn't crush two women for having aspirations. Some of our Ranger brothers are upset because the Ranger community has been the proverbial whipping post for the Army, dare I say military. Some of you have made terse corrections on certain people for their supposed lack of respect for senior officers, legends, and self entitled "know-it-alls" that wear the Ranger Tab.

Funny... I remember A LOT of you who went berserk, and became volatile over General Shinseki's crass, cheap, underhanded theft of the Army Ranger's legendary symbol... The Black Beret. He took that honored Ranger beret and made it the standard issue headgear for the ENTIRE ARMY! The Ranger Regiment was told to simply "Pick another color beret." The choices were few, and the tan beret is now the official headgear of the 75th Ranger Regiment. Shinseki, a four star "Ranger Qualified tab wearer," supposedly one of our own, opted to take such a foul, vulgar, visceral cut at something so sacred within our community, that the words "Treason" and "Banishment" were referred to this loathsome individual. OUR LEADERSHIP SUPPORTED THIS!

I was there at Fort Benning the day they made the 75th Ranger Regiment officially change the berets. You could see tears of sadness and anger! Guess who was there to empirically oversee this mandated act? None other than "The Honorable Eric J Shinseki" - General... Ranger... Blue Falcon. At that event, I watched CSM (Ret) Donald R Purdy, a Ranger legend, as well as other Rangers, stand up and turn their back on the proceedings. RESPECT IS EARNED NOT ISSUED! How about the ACU uniform? The queen mother of all bad ideas! Who made that punitive dent in the tax-payers pockets, and made our presence an easy target that stood out in combat theatre? OUR LEADERSHIP!

"Blackhawk Down," Somalia, October 3rd 1993. A sad day, where we had to endure 73 casualties and 18 deaths of our best 75th Rangers, Delta Force, Task Force 160, STS, and DevGru operators. From our TV's, we had front row seats, and watched in horror as our Ranger family members were drug down the streets of Mogadishu by savages. Task Force Ranger requested one Spectre gunship, and armored personnel carriers for this mission. Guess what? Denied! Why? Because OUR LEADERS said that the requested force protection package was "Too provocative." There is no doubt that the Spectre gunship and APC's would have saved lives that day!

Shall I continue with more tales of leadership? Sure, one more... This one is infuriating! In early September 2011, at a remote outpost, a young Afghan boy and his Afghan-Uzbek mother showed up at a Special Forces camp. The 12-year-old showed the Green Berets where his hands had been tied. A medic took him to a back room for an examination with an interpreter, who told them the boy had been raped by another commander by the name of Abdul Rahman. After learning of the meeting, Rahman allegedly beat the boy's mother for reporting the crime. It was at this point, two of the Green Berets, CPT Quinn and SFC Martland, had enough, and went to confront Rahman. "He confessed to the crime and laughed about it, and said it wasn't a big deal.

Even when we patiently explained to Rahman how serious the charge was, he kept laughing," Quinn said. According to reports of the incident, Quinn and Martland shoved Abdul Rahman to the ground. It was the only way to get their point across, according to Quinn. "As a man, as a father of a young boy myself at the time, I felt obliged to step in to prevent further repeat occurrences," Quinn said. Rahman walked away bruised from getting shoved and thrown to the ground, but otherwise okay, according to teammates.

But Rahman quickly reported the incident to another Army unit in a nearby village. The next day a U.S. Army helicopter landed and took Quinn and Martland away, ending their work in Kunduz Province. For the next few weeks, both soldiers remained in Afghanistan but were not allowed to continue their mission. They were given temporary jobs in Mazar-i-Sharif in northern Afghanistan and later in Herat. Pending the outcome of the investigation, both men were relieved from their positions and sent home.

Their war was over. Quinn has since left the Army and started a job on Wall Street. Martland, though, has been FIGHTING TO STAY IN THE ARMY. In February 2015, the Army conducted a "Qualitative Management Program" review board. His supporters suspect because Martland had a "relief for cause" evaluation in his service record, the U.S. Army ordered Martland to be "involuntary discharged" from the Army by Nov. 1, 2015. SFC Martland is known amongst his peers as one of the finest soldiers in the US Army.

Now? He suffers not only the personal indignity of being kicked out for doing the right thing, but also the looming knowledge that his fellow soldiers are being held accountable to a leadership that is so far gone from its warrior roots that the assurance of our operational effectiveness, and the safety of our sons AND DAUGHTERS is compromised. This isn't about two women who actually pursued a goal. Its about US! We, the men and women, of the armed forces are on the chopping block.

We have become a PC social experiment gone mad, where the needs of the few, grossly outweigh the needs of the many; this in an occupation where people die. We are in trouble. If you went to SERE school you'll remember being told to "Insulate, NOT isolate"? More than ever before, the Ranger body as a whole, has to come together and do what we have been famous for... TAKING CARE OF OUR OWN! If bludgeoning these two women is the endstate? I'll have no part of it. I am inclined to believe that the 75th Ranger Regiment is a special operations unit that is best suited to operate and function in a male centric configuration. Ranger school is NOT the 75th Ranger Regiment! It is the premiere, toughest leadership school in the whole military, and IF a woman chooses to attend it? Best of luck, as long as the standards have not been lowered.

Final thoughts: To "The Good Idea Fairy" leaders who hold our lives in our hands? Congratulations! Tell Mr and Mrs America that their military age daughter has to now report to the post office for selective service registration at a time of war, rape, and beheadings. I'm sure the accolades will shower upon thee greatly. To my fellow Rangers & 75th Rangers? A quote: "Do Right and Fear Not!"Do "Ranger Right" and not "Ranger Wrong."

To the Rangers I hold in high regard? Douglas Greenway, Craig Owens, Lt. General Mike Ferriter, Andrew-Rhonda McIlquham, Taft Yates, CSM Leon Guerrero, Lt. General "Smoking" Joe Anderson, Carlos Rodriguez, Jeff Bia Jackson , Bernie Folino, Matt Watters, Peter Quintanilla, Jeremy Brown, Max Mullen, Greg Hamilton, Bert Puckett, General Stanley McChrystal, Shane Flint, Col. Gregory Allen, Tom Bigley and so many others...Thank you gentlemen.

As for the two new Lady Rangers? Remember the last scene in "Saving Private Ryan" where Ranger Captain Miller (Tom Hanks) is slowly dying on the battlefield where his fellow Rangers died in order to save Private Ryan? Remember what his whispering, dying words were to Private Ryan? "Earn This!" You'll find that the hardest thing about the Ranger tab is wearing it, not going to a school for it. The eyes of the world are upon you! Take what you've learned and make a better Army! To my Ranger Buddies that are not in this earthly realm? I think of you often, and guarantee you that some day, not to soon I hope, I'll have that drink with you in Valhalla.

There are Tab wearers and Tab bearers... Which one are you? God Bless you all. RLTW-DOL ~SN - B co 2/75 & Ranger School Class 14-89

Pat

Box

08-24-2015, 05:42

Well...

Lets look at it this way:
...social experimentation with the military has ALREADY made it legal for two rangers to have sex without fear of reprisal.

...at least now, rangers will be able to have sex with other rangers the way nature intended

silver lining in every cloud gentlemen...
...now get back to work, we have social experiments to conduct

PRB

08-24-2015, 09:56

Sdiver

08-24-2015, 19:18

...now get back to work, we have social experiments to conduct

Aren't you supposed to be suppressing people, instead of conducting experiments ???

Com'on already will ya ....
.... I'm running out of bacon and beer.

:munchin

Team Sergeant

08-25-2015, 09:50

Was a nice post except he lost me at Stanley McChrystal. I doubt he's a real Ranger, McChrystal doesn't possess the spine for one.

Why you ask?

McChrystal is a gun control advocate, No "Molon Labe" coming from his lips. He also doesn't have a clue with his "assault" rifle remarks.

JimP

08-25-2015, 15:54

Yeah...Stan is a big Lib. There's still some tough questions being asked for shit that occurred downrange when Stan thought he was in the cool kids' club and showed that effing clown Sen. Levin shit he should never have been shown. I don't think all the pieces have fallen from that fiasco yet. Idiot.

I also recall (pretty funny) that he was coming back from a work out and standing in the middle of the JOC in his PT clothes, and he went on a rant on how he didn't want to see any more PT clothes in the JOC. This is when Purple started taking over for Green downrange.

We all just stood there like: "is this fucking guy for real...??"

Chairborne64

08-26-2015, 13:51

So, speaking of social experiments. Does anybody have any visibility on how many woman showed up to RTAC today? This should be report date of the first of the 3 RTAC classes that will feed the next "integrated" class.:munchin

RoninSpartan

09-02-2015, 14:51

Letter from a Ranger who says he was there....

Army wanted 200 of the most badass women from the army, guard and reserves to start ranger school in April. The deal was they had to pass RTAC to get a slot. 138 women attended several RTAC classes and 20 passed

The 20 women were put in their own unit to train exclusively for Ranger school in the months preceding their start date. 1 quit before school started.19 women started Ranger School in April.11 failed in the first 3 days: pt test, land nav and road March

All remaining 8 failed patrols and were inserted into Darby the following class.All 8 failed patrols again. 5 were sent home and 3 were offered day 1 recycles.

Nearing the end of their third attempt at Darby, all three had 2 failed patrols, and General Scott Miller (movement excellence commander of Ft Benning) showed up to be their guest walker. [As far as I know, no officer above the rank of colonel was ever a walker or lane grader. When I went to Ranger School, I believe the graders were all either NCOs or captains or majors. I do not even believe that any officer associated with the school was a general including the commandant of the ranger school. I think he was a LTC or Col.] All three passed.

All three advanced to Mountains. Nearing the end of the patrol phase of mountains all three women had 2 failed patrols and guess who showed up again to be their guest RI [?] walker..... 2 of the three passed, and one has been recycled.

Some of the guys I work with here remember Miller from Delta [Force]. I'm sure that's not what's being reported, but when we first heard a general had walked them, three of them chimed in with "Scotty Miller" in unison.

They will pass, and probably be honor grads. " Sounds like command interference to me...[plain old dishonesty to me if they did not earn passing grades]

Does not surprise me. The General’s Boss most likely told him (Miller) if you want to make three stars, there will be female Ranger graduates! So he Santa Claused them so they would pass. Sad times. This PC BS will be the end of us, if it hasn’t already sealed our fate!

Streck-Fu

09-03-2015, 09:18

Army announced today that all restrictions are removed for any women to attend Ranger school and the RTAC requirement is removed as well. LINK (http://www.stripes.com/news/us/army-removes-all-restrictions-on-women-attending-ranger-school-1.365953)

Chairborne64

09-03-2015, 11:05

So lets see how many show up for the 5 OCT class.

Sdiver

09-03-2015, 11:16

Total nob question(s) here .... Before this last class, has any trainee ever died or been severely injured, maimed or disabled going through a class?

Now that the Army has opened the class(es) to all women to attend, would the likelihood of this happening increase?

Chairborne64

09-03-2015, 11:27

There has been lots of bad injuries and several deaths. The worst was in 1995 (Class 3-95 I think) that 4 students died in Florida phase. This caused some serious changes in the course.

Sdiver

09-03-2015, 13:09

There has been lots of bad injuries and several deaths. The worst was in 1995 (Class 3-95 I think) that 4 students died in Florida phase. This caused some serious changes in the course.

Now that you mention that, while I was living in FWB at that time, I remember hearing/reading about that.

It's not just if, but WHEN, a female candidate gets seriously injured or dies, I have a feeling that we will see a media storm the likes of which we have never seen.

abc_123

09-03-2015, 15:10

There has been lots of bad injuries and several deaths. The worst was in 1995 (Class 3-95 I think) that 4 students died in Florida phase. This caused some serious changes in the course.

I went a few years before and then did my do-over a few classes after that. And though I can't tell exactly what changes were made as s result... the overall difference between the two experiences was very noticable to me.

Razor

09-04-2015, 12:06

MCoE Infantry School and the ARTB richly deserve every single sexual discrimination and SHARP complaint/investigation they will undoubtedly deal with in the future.

Chairborne64

09-04-2015, 12:09

Agreed!

Streck-Fu

09-09-2015, 06:04

The Marines seem to be still keeping the studies honest. LINK (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/09/08/marines-women-in-combat-experiment-gets-mixed-results/)

Marine Corps’ women-in-combat experiment gets mixed results

Over the past nine months, the Marine Corps tested a gender-integrated task force in both Twentynine Palms, Calif. and Camp Lejeune, N.C. in an attempt to gauge what the Marine Corps might look like with women in combat roles.

According to a recent report in the Marine Corps Times, only a small number of women were left by the experiment’s conclusion — two of the roughly two dozen that started — mostly in part because of the physical and mental stress that comes with combat roles. Both the men and women in the task force also reported a breakdown in unit cohesion with some voicing a perceived unequal treatment from their peers.

The experiment comes as all branches of the military face a Jan. 1, 2016 deadline to open all combat positions to women — from basic infantry battalions to elite special operations units such as U.S. Navy SEALs. While branches like the Air Force and Navy have relatively small communities where women are currently barred from serving — namely special operations detachment s— the U.S. Army and Marine Corps have a host of units and jobs closed to woman. These jobs, known as combat arms, include infantry, artillery and armored divisions.

...........

The Marine Corps Times report cites a number of instances where women had a difficult time completing physical tasks, like moving 200 pound dummies off the battlefield or from the turret of a “damaged” vehicle. Peer assessments were also mixed.

Lance Cpl. Chris Augello, a reservist who prior to the experiment was pro-integration, submitted a 13-page essay—which he shared with the Marine Corps Times—on why he had changed his mind. “The female variable in this social experiment has wrought a fundamental change in the way male [non-commissioned officers] think, act and lead,” he wrote, referring to the female presence and its effect on how Marine Corps small-unit leaders do their job.

Augello, according to the report, also noted that relationships between the female and male Marines in his platoon sometimes turned romantic and in turn became a distraction. Integration, Augello wrote, is “a change that is sadly for the worse, not the better.”

MtnGoat

09-09-2015, 06:17

So lets see how many show up for the 5 OCT class.

Army sent out a MILPER Letter stating that women would be allowed to attend the November Ranger Class. I'll try to find it. Within the MILPER, this allowed for proper train up for individuals, both Officer and Enlisted females to attend the November class of ##-16.

Something like that.

Chairborne64

09-09-2015, 07:16

Yes they did. What I am not sure of is if this is superseded by the decision to open ALL Ranger courses to women. The first decision was made by GEN Odierno on his way out. The next decision was made by the new CSA on his way in. I believe, but could be wrong, that female's are allowed to attend the 5 OCT class if they want.

Chairborne64

09-09-2015, 07:20

Here is a link to the article. Of course the press has been wrong before and I have not seen the MILPER message.

http://time.com/4020622/army-ranger-school-women/

Chairborne64

09-17-2015, 07:49

So the last women in Ranger School, Army Reserve Engineer Major, is recycling again! 5 recycles to date.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/09/15/third-woman-to-repeat-final-phase-of-army-ranger-school.html?comp=7000023435700&rank=1

Box

09-17-2015, 07:59

Poor gal should get credit for a PCS move...

Give her some credit though - she has more time in Ranger School than some Army bureaucrats have in combat and she still hasn't quit.

craigepo

09-17-2015, 08:51

5 recycles. I can't imagine going through 5 recycles there. The Gulag...

Guy

09-17-2015, 09:33

5 recycles. I can't imagine going through 5 recycles there. The Gulag...I did 30 days in the Gulag (long tabber) which was even worse than Ranger School....

Five (5) recycles!?!? You're coming out of there physically emaciated unless; you were given the opportunity to heal......

JimP

09-17-2015, 09:50

edited as apparently I am retarded and can't figure out what thread I am in......

Santo Tomas

09-17-2015, 09:52

I saw guys coming out of the gulag. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. At the time it was a pretty brutal place.

Razor

09-17-2015, 12:46

Cool, so as long as you don't quit, you'll tab eventually. Good to know.

1stindoor

09-18-2015, 06:03

Cool, so as long as you don't quit, you'll tab eventually. Good to know.

To be fair though...there's a lot of 18Bs, 18Cs, 18Ds, and 18Es...that started the SFQC in a different MOS.

SF_BHT

09-18-2015, 06:14

To be fair though...there's a lot of 18Bs, 18Cs, 18Ds, and 18Es...that started the SFQC in a different MOS.

You are so right. I remember one guy who spent 3 yrs in the Q. And he was never a medic. He recycled 5+ times basically every phase at least once. Would not quit and they thought he was worth a recycle. Some just take more time then others.

SouthernDZ

09-18-2015, 06:15

To be fair though...there's a lot of 18Bs, 18Cs, 18Ds, and 18Es...that started the SFQC in a different MOS.

Correct. As the HHC 1SG, 4th SWTG (JSOMTC), I controlled the 18D failures. 99% that wanted to continue the SFQC automatically recycled to 18E (1% went down Ardennes).
In fact, a third of all 18E graduates during that time started out as 18Ds.

miclo18d

09-18-2015, 06:45

Correct. As the HHC 1SG, 4th SWTG (JSOMTC), I controlled the 18D failures. 99% that wanted to continue the SFQC automatically recycled to 18E (1% went down Ardennes).
In fact, a third of all 18E graduates during that time started out as 18Ds.
When I got to the 18d course on a Friday, we inprocessed, got our books, went to a classroom, got all kinds of briefings, then were given a list of 300+ medical terms to be tested on Monday morning. About 5 people failed that test and were shown the path to the 18E course about a 1/4 mile down Kedenburg/Ardennes. :eek: it just got worse from there A&P dropped about 5-10 ------ of the 75+/- (about 65 SF students) originals students, I think 12 of us graduated in the same class, about 20-25 total graduated with recycles.

Anyone for a DRE?:D

Chairborne64

09-23-2015, 07:54

I hope the ARTB kept their student training records in good shape. It could be interesting to see what comes out of this. I am sure the 3rd female is going to be held to the exact standard with the level of scrutiny this is getting.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/09/23/lawmaker-seeks-proof-women-deserved-to-pass-ranger-school.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=1

Team Sergeant

09-23-2015, 09:22

Chairborne64

09-23-2015, 10:57

Hear that, that's 10,000 Army Rangers tearing the tab's off their uniforms.

Who's next to have their standards lowered? :munchin

It's only fair you know. I cannot believe women and men still do not compete against one and other in the Olympics.........

Inequality !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that would be amusing, "From now on all women must compete against men in all sporting events!"

Totally agree. I think USMA should lead the way and fill their football team with 50% women. They think their season is bad now. Of course if you did that they would loose some MAJOR boosters.

Something as trivial as defending our nation the Social Justice Warriors will tinker with all day long. But loosing major booster support to their favorite university? Even the Libs are not that stupid.

Sdiver

09-23-2015, 12:16

Totally agree. I think USMA should lead the way and fill their football team with 50% women. They think their season is bad now.

Screw that ... they should make it 100% women on their football team.

I mean com'on ... loosing 13 straight years to Navy ... an all women team might just even the playing field.

Razor

09-23-2015, 14:12

Even having female cadets meet the same APFT and Indoor Obstacle Course Test scoring standards, and have to take the mandatory (for males) boxing class with male classmates in their same weight class would be a huge step.

abc_123

09-23-2015, 14:55

Roguish Lawyer

09-23-2015, 15:56

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/capitol-hill/2015/09/22/congressman-wants-proof-standards-werent-fudged-female-ranger-school-graduates/72651796/

Mills

09-23-2015, 21:38

2 stars for him...............

Get it.........

MtnGoat

09-23-2015, 21:46

Well Ranger Training Brigade says good bye to their Female Observer and Advisors that have been there since November 2014.

The female O/As have been TDY since last November, the Army has spent over $1million on TDY for those O/As alone

So in female fashion this is there going away, and they gave these chicks a fucking plaque??? FOR WHAT????

MtnGoat

09-23-2015, 21:51

Yes they got plaques too!!??

SF0

09-23-2015, 21:53

Mustang Man

09-24-2015, 06:07

MtnGoatYes they got plaques too!!??

Probably got some ARCOMS out of it as well.

MtnGoat

09-24-2015, 06:35

MtnGoat

Probably got some ARCOMS out of it as well.

Oh you know that happen for sure!!

bailaviborita

09-25-2015, 04:54

Funny- all this talk of standards. The advocates' goal is to do away with standards.

Ultimate goal: the feminization of men in the U.S.
To get there:
- feminize the military
- end the hyper macho male culture of the military
- do away with football
- make movies for kids showing girls rebelling against tradition and being warriors
- make movies for kids showing men and boys as mostly weak and dumb
- make movies for adults showing tiny women beating up huge men
- institute a culture of fear on campuses and in military through sexual harassment training and exaggeration of rape
- increasingly make it illegal to act like a man
- do away with military emphasis on physical ability
- get a few women into combat arms

Our psyop bubbas should take their cues from this crowd. Maybe they could get Afghans to stop raping boys...

sinjefe

09-25-2015, 05:45

^^^^^They're evil.

mark46th

09-25-2015, 07:35

Maj General Scott Miller who was quoted in the article, flew in twice on special trips to be their personal lane graders. Yeah, they were treated equally. Move along, nothing to see here.

MtnGoat

10-26-2015, 08:08

Reporting from the 4th Ranger Training Brigade OPS SGM.

http://www.breachbangclear.com/female-rangers-an-insider-speaks-on-the-record/

sinjefe

10-26-2015, 08:12

^^^^^Not exactly. It is an article from a guy who was supportive of the effort allegedly quoting a SGM. You have to take his possibly biased word for it. Also, I wouldn't expect an Operations SGM associated with ARTB to say anything BUT that in an "on the record" interview.

bailaviborita

10-27-2015, 05:06

The fix was in. This was decided a while back- the only question as how to do it without the military rebelling.

Get women through Marne Basic and Ranger and the deal was done. There would be no problems with the Navy and Air Force.

The Marines have been a problem, but with women getting through enlisted basic and the Navy Secretary overruling them- problem solved.

The institution -through the advocates - are aiming for 20% of combat arms units (not MOS) to be female. Standards by MOS, special assistance and training, quotas, unqualified mentors, and blaming leaders if it doesn't happen are all the lines of effort.

Make no mistake, their goal was fundamental change, their objective was changing the "macho" culture of our combat arms, and they are well on their way to getting all they want.

West Point is looking to drastically increase their female numbers and SOF is planning now to fill SOF HQs with females to provide mentorship to the first females. Next year, Spring, is the goal...

Razor

10-27-2015, 06:50

West Point is looking to drastically increase their female numbers...

That's already well under way. Class of 2017 was 16% female, Class of 2018 jumped to 20%, and this year's freshman class magically increased once again to 23% female.

USMA is obligated to put 70% of its graduating class into combat arms branches. I'd love to be sitting in the back of the auditorium in a few years when the seniors are notified of their future branch assignments, and a high-pitched wail starts up from a bevy of young women who just found out they were branched Infantry against their will. Secondary effects can be a real bitch, ladies.

Richard

10-28-2015, 06:40

DB. ;)

New 'Gender Neutral' Latrines Will Require Troops To Sit While They Pee
DB, 27 Oct 2015

In an effort to pave the way for gender integration in infantry combat roles, Pentagon officials announced the acquisition of new gender neutral porta-potties specifically designed to only be used while in a seated position.

http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/10/new-gender-neutral-latrines-will-require-troops-to-sit-while-they-pee/

Dusty

10-28-2015, 07:05

SF-TX

10-28-2015, 07:17

Another from the DB:

Sgt. Maj. Ruins Career By Publicizing Female Infantry Study Results Instead of Destroying Them

QUANTICO, Va. — Sgt. Maj. Justin LeHew was notified this week that he will receive an other than honorable discharge from the Marine Corps, sources report, after LeHew recently ruined his career by releasing negative study results instead of destroying them.

LeHew, the Sergeant Major of Marine Corps Training and Education Command, made the career ending move last month, by publicly releasing the methodology and results of a study that found gender-integrated infantry units performed worse than all male ones...

...“His mistake was announcing facts,” Lt. Gen. Paul K. Van Riper (Ret.) said. “When faced with facts contrary to what the military and Congress wants, the facts must be changed. It’s standard procedure.

http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/10/sgt-maj-ruins-career-by-publicizing-results-not-destroying/

mark46th

10-28-2015, 09:22

SGM LeHew won't have to buy a beer for years...

Team Sergeant

10-28-2015, 10:46

I'm waiting for female heavyweight boxers, MMA fighters, NFL and MBL going against men.

So far only male "sports" exclude women.

DanHeller88

10-29-2015, 01:32

bailaviborita

10-29-2015, 04:49

Marine buddy of mine: "well, now we know which one is tougher- Ranger or Marine infantry officer course..."

Ouch---

Box

10-29-2015, 05:11

I feel terrible for the females that are happy serving in the capacities they do. One day may be tossed into the "needs of the Army" to a combat arms slot, when she was completely happy and content being a food service specialist until GI Jane came around.

I doubt it will ever come to that.
The PROponents know what the problems are with combat equality. This HAS NEVER been about the fair integration of females into combat roles.
...or they would already have to register for selective service

MAKING women do jobs they dont/cant do sets them up for failure and proponents CANNOT let this fail.
Far better to have a couple of cross fitters and a soccer mom wear the mantle of "anything you can do, I can do better" than actually tear the cover off of the scam and let the public see the real results.

Like, how many women lined up to be one of the THREE that graduated?
hint......

IT WAS NOT 19 WOMEN

ONLY 19 women were able to convince the Army that they had a reasonable chance at graduating.
Kudos to the women that managed to hang on through the process. They literally carried the weight of their entire gender on their shoulders.
Maybe it would do people well to realize that the life of a combat soldier is much more than a "tab"

A computer programmer going through West Point with an extra "X" chromosome doesnt have to worry about getting stuck in the infantry and doomed to a mediocre career (or worse yet, destined for failure) because she is physically unable to live the life of a combat troop she will always be able to play the girl card.
...the moused sized man that has the abilities of a world class mathlete will get stuck in the position and thus doomed to mediocrity since men are supposed to be able to "hack it"

poor guy
...men get my sympathy here

frostfire

10-29-2015, 08:03

Ultimate goal: the feminization of men in the U.S.
To get there:
- feminize the military
- end the hyper macho male culture of the military
- do away with football
- make movies for kids showing girls rebelling against tradition and being warriors
- make movies for kids showing men and boys as mostly weak and dumb
- make movies for adults showing tiny women beating up huge men
- institute a culture of fear on campuses and in military through sexual harassment training and exaggeration of rape
- increasingly make it illegal to act like a man
- do away with military emphasis on physical ability
- get a few women into combat arms

Our psyop bubbas should take their cues from this crowd.

Ouch, Sir.

I want to say tin foil....but I'm persuaded. The trend is there for sure, but correlation or causation? Of course, unproven is not the same as dis-proven
Just might use this on my PsyOp case study and capabilities briefing. I'd probably be shown the door in no time

bailaviborita

10-30-2015, 05:09

Seems like we may be in for a crazy ride: http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/changing-the-“macho”-male-culture-of-the-us-military

Changing the “Macho” Male Culture of the US Military

The effort to change military culture also includes the effort to overturn the combat exclusion rule. This rule, as many advocates for overturning it have argued, is the strongest reason that men view women as less than men. According to some, it is the reason military men rape women, sexually harass them, and devalue them. It is the reason women get out of the service at higher rates, are injured more than men, have more PTSD issues, and score less on their PT tests.

To change the overall culture, the thinking goes, the military must change. This is where the argument for overturning the combat exclusion rule using our allies’ experiences as proof that it will work is disingenuous. Our allies who have opened combat arms to women have simply opened their combat arms branches to women. That is all. No culture change. The Germans, French, Australians, Canadians, and Israelis still have a traditional male culture in their combat arms. The very few women who have entered these countries’ combat arms have had to grow thick skin or they’ve been shown the door.

In the US, the plan is very different. The Department of Defense is micromanaging the transition. There is no trust that the services will get to the advocates goals of 20%- at least- of all combat arms service members to be females. Once the order has been given to make the change happen, which is expected sometime late this year or early next, it has been strongly implied to all general officers that if they are seen as “dragging their feet” they can expect an early retirement. The word has gone out to both silence anyone from even talking about the transition and that everyone needs to get on board and make this successful as fast as possible (possibly because of the potential loss of the White House the following year).

To do that, commands are being told that they must have female mentors in place before the combat arms-branched females get to their units or show up to schools. For Ranger School this meant- and continues to mean- female observers who are unqualified. Some commanders have noted this is as much to protect males from spurious allegations as it is to assist women, but the implication is clear: a severe lack of trust among all parties from the top down.

For operational units it means they will have to scramble to find women to either place them in combat arms units in non-combat arms specialties or to place them as “excess” personnel, serving in a unit as an overage simply in order to facilitate the transition from all male units to units having females in them. The focus does not seem to be on simply integrating females into units as much as it is to make females in combat arms specialties successful.

The assumptions governing these requirements are: 1) the culture of combat arms units are hyper-macho and misogynist and thus women will most likely fail without women “protectors”, 2) if men in combat units are faced with charges of sexual harassment or assault- regardless of their validity, it could derail the transition, and thus female mentors and observers will assist in making the transition smooth, 3) leaders cannot be trusted to ensure fairness during the transition, and thus must be forced to facilitate a certain outcome, and, 4) women can meet the same physical requirements as men if their leadership is motivated, the women are given special training and they are held to the same standards as men.

The guidance from the Pentagon is very clear to commanders, if not always explicit in the orders (even though much of it IS explicit). Women will be coming to your units. If they do not, it is because the services’ leadership and the leadership at Recruiting Command, ROTC units, and the Academies are not doing their job. Women will be successful at combat arms schools. If they are not, leadership will be held accountable. Women will be successful at combat arms units. If they are not, leadership will be held accountable. This includes looking very closely at different rates of failure between men and women, different rates of recruitment of women and men into combat arms branches, and different rates of high evaluations between men and women in combat arms units- and “fixing” discrepancies.