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View Full Version : Pentagon Set to Resume Special Foreign-born Recruiting Program


BMT (RIP)
12-26-2014, 08:18
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/12/26/pentagon-set-to-resume-special-foreign-born-recruiting-program.html?ESRC=eb.nl

BMT

TrapperFrank
12-26-2014, 11:19
This is akin to the Lodge Act in the 1950s.

The Reaper
12-26-2014, 11:35
Very few takers and little return from those who do, IMHO.

Not really Lodge Act type applicants.

TR

Peregrino
12-26-2014, 11:48
This is akin to the Lodge Act in the 1950s.

No - it isn't. There is a world of difference between the target populations today and those targeted by the Lodge Act in the 50's.

What it is is my favorite definition of insanity - repeating the same mistakes expecting different results. We went down this road three + years ago. It was an unmitigated disaster for SF with abysmal (~ 5%) success rates. And that's overlooking the morale, discipline, and basic Soldier problems. Let's just call it one more leadership problem thrown at guys whose plates are already overflowing. We are now being FORCED to repeat it only this time the administrative burden has been exponentially increased. (This has been in the works for a while. Our higher HQ ordered us to "play nice" three months ago.)

My experience with the program is limited to the Regimental perspective - expand that to the rest of the Services and consider their target audience. The quoted example - medical doctors? The last thing the military medical system needs - or anyplace else that will eventually result in a commission - is another English as a second language doctor. It's hard enough to get the ones who speak English to actually listen to you.

mark46th
12-26-2014, 14:35
There's a big difference between the DP's(Displaced persons) from Europe and the Middle East recruits we would likely encounter today. Back in the 1950's we were fighting communism, today we are fighting Allah and Mohammed. The Europeans shared a common religion, a hated of Communism and a desire to free their home countries. There aren't a lot of moslems who hate Mohammed and want to free their countries of Islam...

WarriorDiplomat
12-26-2014, 19:03
This is also part of the ARSOF 2022 recruiting plan, to recruit from the target countries. This is idiocy to recruit the intangible to fight their own culture. It is Grandiose to attempt to replicate something from a different time that worked well because of the circumstance forced on people in a relatively short time (Communism). We shared common ancestry and a hatred for oppression of freedom. America has nothing in common with the ideology of Muslim culture.

I know politicians don't like to say it for fear of public backlash but this is a religious war. These Violent True Believers VTB's are willing to do anything to destroy western influence in the name of Allah. If not they have no problem standing by while someone else does.

Islam is a socially conditioned mental illness that has reigned for 1400 years throughout their culture. There is absolutely no separation of church and state in this culture. Either they take life in the name of Allah or they stand by and accept Inshallah (Gods will) you name the act. Few religions if any have ever been able to suppress education, advancement as a society, freedom, or morals the way this particular ideology does.

These folks are different.

Flagg
12-27-2014, 15:43
I've posted before(and received some responses) about a "Lodge Act 2.0":

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45595

Which raised my awareness of the MAVNI program.

This thread has articulated in a bit more detail as to the shortcomings of the program as well as the structural differences in culture/environment/aligned interests between the Lodge Act and MAVNI.

I don't like presenting perceived problems without offering possible solutions, but penetrating an intolerant and impermeable(and often ultra-localized) culture/community without the authenticity of passible native looking/sounding personnel sounds like an insurmountable challenge that bleeding edge technology can only go so far to mitigate(and with just a slice of it, not the whole pie).

If the "bang for the buck" doesn't add up to "build" them out of 1st generation Americans like the Lodge Act, does the "bang for the buck" add up to "rent" them along the lines of the Selous Scouts and their "turned terrs" for the digital age?

-----

For some reason I'm thinking a part of the solution is the same for this as for countering Sputnik. Post Sputnik, the US dramatically increased education funding for science in education.

While I would encourage the same again for increasing US technological dominance in some fields, I wonder if the same could apply to US irregular/asymmetric warfare
defense.

Because if the cultural incongruity posited here is why a "Lodge Act 2.0"/MAVNI can't work, then is it that big of a leap to say that the same cultural incongruity could lead to disruption of classified programs that compel the use of translators who are culturally incongruent and an increased risk of ideological rather than monetary/disaffection driven "falcons and snowmen"?

So wouldn't a much larger pool of Americans educated in foreign languages in general provide some medium to long term benefit?

But I just can't help but think the west appears to be incredibly ill-prepared to penetrate the urban mega ghettos of the present and future.

GreenSalsa
12-27-2014, 16:02
My take is a little different.

I am thinking that we (US Army) have failed to systematically recruit, manage, and place these people.

We have SF recruiters--why aren't we using them to recruit languages and ethnicities we need and get them into the Army?

We have SF drills, why aren't we using them to spot, assess, and identify personnel with promising skills and get them into ARSOF?

We assign MAVNIs to SOF and rarely have NCOs that recognize, mentor, or mold them in the manner we need. From my experience, a lot of MAAVNIs do require more attention than the average recruit, but that said, they are adjusting to life in America which is significantly different from where they grew up. I am NOT suggesting two standards, but I am suggesting we do pay them a close look and manage them with an eye for the future.

Finally, success isn't necessarily a SFQC graduation. There are plenty of ARSOF units that can use them and if we are really smart, we just might want to keep some of these guys in non threatening MOSs.

I personally know of a MAVNI supply SGT who was used in a very sensitive mission where he was able to monitor three separate conversations while only admitting to speaking two dialects. VERY useful for several people conducting some fairly delicate talking in an awkward location and dismissed him because he was ONLY a supply SGT.

I think there is a lot of gold out there...

WarriorDiplomat
12-29-2014, 17:04
My take is a little different.

I am thinking that we (US Army) have failed to systematically recruit, manage, and place these people.

We have SF recruiters--why aren't we using them to recruit languages and ethnicities we need and get them into the Army?

We have SF drills, why aren't we using them to spot, assess, and identify personnel with promising skills and get them into ARSOF?

We assign MAVNIs to SOF and rarely have NCOs that recognize, mentor, or mold them in the manner we need. From my experience, a lot of MAAVNIs do require more attention than the average recruit, but that said, they are adjusting to life in America which is significantly different from where they grew up. I am NOT suggesting two standards, but I am suggesting we do pay them a close look and manage them with an eye for the future.

Finally, success isn't necessarily a SFQC graduation. There are plenty of ARSOF units that can use them and if we are really smart, we just might want to keep some of these guys in non threatening MOSs.

I personally know of a MAVNI supply SGT who was used in a very sensitive mission where he was able to monitor three separate conversations while only admitting to speaking two dialects. VERY useful for several people conducting some fairly delicate talking in an awkward location and dismissed him because he was ONLY a supply SGT.

I think there is a lot of gold out there...

We cannot forget the past

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mohamed

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/08/12/world/how-a-us-marine-became-leader-of-somalia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

WarriorDiplomat
12-29-2014, 19:08
These are some golden gems not to mention the U.S. soldiers who have converted since we began the GWOT the FBI is well aware of the dangers we are looking at. They have warned DOD several times about security threat groups who are joining the military for the training and recruiting of others to their cause. Their knowledge of security threat groups and the homegrown radicalization, the lone wolf phenom surfacing is something to consider their is something intangible happening and we cannot be foolish to think that sleepers aren't real. The reality of spotting and assessing recruits from target populations in our current conflict areas is asking a recruiter to analyze someones deep seeded cultural beliefs in the psychological context. We are not that good at spotting and assessing since the school for that training has become a tool for promotion and we know every soldier with or without the ability wants to go simply for either promotion or post Army career goals. Remembering the Ali Mohamed incident reminds us that humans still get enamored with these narcissistic personalities especially one with charisma i.e. those that make good spies. We already have our psychologist claiming that the ideal Green Beret has these same anti-social tendencies that are at the center of the sociopath. The grandiose inflated sense of self the manipulative personality without concern for others and slew of other characteristics. Humans are complex and the Violent True Believer may not feel he is one until the moment he hears the call like a Christian who is being born again it comes out of the blue and that is real.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Mohamed

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/08/12/world/how-a-us-marine-became-leader-of-somalia.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

frostfire
01-05-2015, 00:13
We assign MAVNIs to SOF and rarely have NCOs that recognize, mentor, or mold them in the manner we need. From my experience, a lot of MAAVNIs do require more attention than the average recruit, but that said, they are adjusting to life in America which is significantly different from where they grew up. I am NOT suggesting two standards, but I am suggesting we do pay them a close look and manage them with an eye for the future.
Finally, success isn't necessarily a SFQC graduation. There are plenty of ARSOF units that can use them and if we are really smart, we just might want to keep some of these guys in non threatening MOSs.

I personally know of a MAVNI supply SGT who was used in a very sensitive mission where he was able to monitor three separate conversations while only admitting to speaking two dialects. VERY useful for several people conducting some fairly delicate talking in an awkward location and dismissed him because he was ONLY a supply SGT.

I think there is a lot of gold out there...

That is an ideal deception. Nothing like hiding in plain sight, drawing the adversaries into complacency, and feeding into their preconceived notions.

You sound very familiar, I wonder if we've met at the Ardennes recruiting station during one of the ARSOF briefing. Not sure if there is a lot, but there are definitely some gold out there.

Having had plenty interaction with the MAVNI's, I've come across different perspectives from them:
- Hard charger, motivated ones who were deployed shortly after arriving in their unit, worked closely with SOF units downrange, were really impressed and won heart-soul-mind by those units. They then went to various selection upon returning from deployment
- Hard charger, motivated ones ready to use their linguistic/cultural skills down range, but get stuck in details weeks after weeks, months after months, and finally years without any NCO or O who "recognize, mentor, or mold them." They grew discouraged, and finally succumbed to complacency, waiting till that ETS date
- The opportunistic POS who came in with engineering, technology, medical degrees but couldn't work in the US due to lack of citizenship. Once citizenship is secured, they try everything to get out....including getting med boarded for shin splints! :mad:
- The grateful ones who never take their citizenship for granted, accept their lot, and continue to contribute to the security of the nation both in and out of the army :cool: Met an epidemiologist CPT during EFMB who's just like that. He was a Falun Gong practitioner who was persecuted in China. He gave me a solid illustration of China's big progress in the big cities like clean, sparkling windows. The inside of the house itself is a mess. IF the army is smart, despite his main credential, his linguistic/cultural expertise should be put to "good use" by now.

StRaTeGy_
01-10-2015, 15:25
Programs like these are valuable to our magnate collectivist head of state as soon as they adopt the idea of turning the guns on native U.S. citizens for any violation or rule set by our government (rules signed when no one was looking). This reminds me when the Romans recruited barbarians to battle for them. Didn't go so well. At the end, the Barbarians begin to take over the Empire...


---------------------cut line--------------------------

The Roman military hired and recruited barbarians for the Roman Army because Romans

were unwilling to joing. As a result, there were more Germans in the army and less Roman

soldiers. In fact, the barbarians were able to be in control of the army because there

were so many in the army compared to the Romans. The Roman army was inadequate in repelling

the barbarian invasions, and there was a decline in discipline in the army. The army was

unorganized because the borders of the Western Half were longer and harder to defend. This was

a disadvantage for the Romans, but an advantage for the barbarians.

The barbarians started to take advantage of the unorganized army. They began to infiltrate

the empire, first in small groups, then in larger masses. The barbarians realized the importance

of the army and used it for their advantage. Different barbaric tribes begin to attack the empire. The Romans

suffered many lossed, which further decreased the morale among soldiers. The Roman army weren't

able to destroy the barbarians that were attacking, and they couldn't keep other tribes out.

The Roman Empire were pressured by the Huns in the east, and were unable to defend against

them as they sacked Rome. The empire began to be invaded by the Germanic Tribes, and several

cities were sacked. This went on for many years, from Fourth Century to Fifth Century. Finally,

in AD 410, the last Roman emperor was overthrown, and the Western Empire falls to the barbarians

Below is a map of the invasions of the Western Empire. It shows where the barbarians

attacked and when. It also shows the extent of Christianity in 500 AD.