View Full Version : US-Cuban relations thaw
NurseTim
12-17-2014, 15:26
So we got that Gross fella back and chairman puts-a-lot wants to normalize relations with Cuba after what 55 years? My ignorant opinion on this is, BFD. But I want to hear what people with skin in the game have to say. Good thing, bad thing? Opening us up to more threat? What? Thanks
In my amateur opinion, it seems like another convenient domestic distraction that could further increase the perception of US weakness in the eyes of it's enemies.
When people say to me that the US has better relations with China and Vietnam than Cuba, why shouldn't the US improve relations with Cuba?
My response is that while I don't agree with Chinese intervention in Korea, I can understand due to sovereign territory proximity.
In the case of Vietnam, outside of invading Cambodia and toppling the Khmer Rouge and it's border conflict with China the only external support I'm aware of with the Vietnamese post 1975 was Vietnam War era ex-US weapons being inserted into Central America.
But in the case of Cuba they went all kinds of UW in Central and South America and full retard expeditionary in the Ethiopia/Somalia Ogaden War and Angola in direct opposition to US interests.
We're not talking about a handful of advisors. We're talking conventional combined arms regiments directly involved in combat operations thousands of miles from home as the lead Soviet proxy in the often hot Cold War in direct opposition of US interests and foreign policy objectives.
Big boys rules, big boys consequences.
I guess not anymore.
-----
The only thing I hope for now is that since the door has been opened by this Administration that it be kicked down and some money spent to bring light to the darkness of how all those dead Cubans ignored by the regime will forever stain their legacy.
Roguish Lawyer
12-17-2014, 16:39
Let's normalize with Iran and North Korea while we're at it. :rolleyes:
ddoering
12-17-2014, 16:51
I'll say this about Cuba. If we normalize with them their government's days are numbered. Once the general population see the difference in living standard they'll shuck their leaders like a used condom.
On the other hand I think O is looking for a more permanent legacy than his health care debacle.
BMT (RIP)
12-17-2014, 16:55
How many BILLION dollars!
BMT
It's about damn time this happened.
The Cuban government has been blaming the embargo for all their issues and it's been giving them legitimacy for decades.
The embargo has been failing for 50 years and I don't see how anyone can be against lifting it.
The embargo has been failing for 50 years and I don't see how anyone can be against lifting it.
Seriously? Because they may not agree with your enlightened opinion?
I'm surprised no one has thrown this out. I know it's CPT Obvious. Gee give us two American held for setting up a VTS Internet system and US will begin to normalize relations with Cuba. Deal Raul?
Flagg once again you hit the nail on the head.. Key word WEAKNESS!!
Well, since they have the best health care system in the western world we may be importing a lot of Cuban Doctors to help with Obamacare.
NurseTim
12-17-2014, 18:15
Raul is gay? Right? Our chief putter is the first gay president according to the lgbt groups, do I hear wedding bells? Where's the vomit icon?
Hopefully, the political prisoners who have been imprisoned for decades, and actually tortured, are not completely forgotten when the floodgates open.
Why not use some of our leverage while we have it.
...when can we expect the first shipment of Cohiba's to hit the cigar store at the mall?
Oldrotorhead
12-17-2014, 19:15
It's about damn time this happened.
The Cuban government has been blaming the embargo for all their issues and it's been giving them legitimacy for decades.
The embargo has been failing for 50 years and I don't see how anyone can be against lifting it.
The Communist Cuban government is just about to implode because the Russians and Venezuelan governements are at a point where they can't help Cuba and the Castro brothers and Obama comes to the rescue? This is a blunt political move by the current Administration to try and buy votes and make something of a faild legacy for the current POTUS. This will cost the US taxpayers $ billions with no plus side for our citizens.
Johnsons's War on Poverty and his Great Society are that old also so to be smart and rational we should end all of them now also. Right?
The Communist Cuban government is just about to implode because the Russians and Venezuelan governements are at a point where they can't help Cuba and the Castro brothers and Obama comes to the rescue? This is a blunt political move by the current Administration to try and buy votes and make something of a faild legacy for the current POTUS. This will cost the US taxpayers $ billions with no plus side for our citizens.
Yepper! What you said. The Cubans have not been suffering because of US (U.S.) they suffer mostly at the hands of their government, you know like we are these days :p .
Badger52
12-17-2014, 20:04
Yepper! What you said. The Cubans have not been suffering because of US (U.S.) they suffer mostly at the hands of their government, you know like we are these days :p .Yup. An economic debacle is an 'effect' of a despotic regime; not a 'cause'. Folks forget that.
Seems stupid, in a realpolitik OBE sense and with all that we have going on in the world today, to continue our seemingly antiquated 'Cold War' foreign policies with Cuba.
MOO - and so it goes...
Richard
Badger52
12-17-2014, 21:05
On the other hand I think O is looking for a more permanent legacy than his health care debacle.Near-term also. Speech writers need material & people for him to point to. $5 the released USAID guy is present at the SOTU.
...more importantly, are we ever gonna get to see "The Interview" ?????
...more importantly, are we ever gonna get to see "The Interview" ?????
I don't know anything about this movie, but it sounds to me more like my experience meeting the bearded one.
Streck-Fu
12-18-2014, 07:01
Alan Gross with lawyer and publicist in someone's office in the US. Note the picture on the wall....
I have been on the fence for this topic for 30 yrs. Living in South Florida you run the gambit of Ultra left & right.
I'm an open market kinda guy, so I lean toward normalization with Cuba.
I think we can destroy them (Fidel & other Commies) with capitalism... Currently Cubans have no or little idea what the US is. If we send a Bazillion Tourista to Cuba,, with an appropriate number of Capitalist to develop the industry?? Who knows..
Not that Capitalism destroyed China & Russia?? It did do better in Germany and some of the other East Block countries.
My $00.0002
Team Sergeant
12-18-2014, 08:43
I'll say this about Cuba. If we normalize with them their government's days are numbered. Once the general population see the difference in living standard they'll shuck their leaders like a used condom.
On the other hand I think O is looking for a more permanent legacy than his health care debacle.
Exactly what I was thinking..... once the all the Cubans see what we have they will get rid of their idiot dictators..... besides, in order to elicit change we need more access to them.
As soon as they "open up" we put in a McDonalds' and send in 100 lawyers. that should put them on the fast track to becoming capitalist!!!;)
Golf1echo
12-18-2014, 09:29
Alan Gross with lawyer and publicist in someone's office in the US. Note the picture on the wall....
It would be this guy...
http://www.mayflower-rc.org/store/7015/14/Che'-T-Shirt.html
Oldrotorhead
12-18-2014, 10:28
It would be this guy...
http://www.mayflower-rc.org/store/7015/14/Che'-T-Shirt.html
"He sat up and we stiched him.":lifter
I have no faith in the current Administration and little faith in Congress at this time. Exactly how did this policy a positive for the US?
Keep in mind this is the same Administration that had a large group pf Rissian sleepers dead to rights and said thank you for your stay in Murica no it is time to go home. I don't trust this Administration and would like to see the details and foot notes for this one sided agreement .
I have no faith in the current Administration and little faith in Congress at this time. Exactly how did this policy a positive for the US?
What did the policy of the last 50 years accomplish? How much longer was it going to take to accomplish it's goal???
What did the policy of the last 50 years of accomplish? How much longer was it going to take to accomplish it's goal???
WCH is pointing out a much ignored flaw in the US policy.
Please remember, In the last 50yrs,, WE are the only ones boycotting Cuba. The rest of the world has been vacationing there..
Here are two examples of commie run business that can be strengthened by capitalism..
1) I know of several people that have snuck into Cuba to fish Tarpon. It is an untapped industry of massive proportions, but is so hindered by the gov, that it is almost a complete failure. Most of the guides are locked into squeeze deals with hotels. You have to book a PACKAGE deal,, probably three time it's worth.. The only salvation (for some) is the hotel is usually the local RED light establishment.. Wink wink wink.. :]
2) Try to buy some top brand cigars, like Cohiba's. The Cuban Gov only allows the Cohiba to be sold at the factory,, so they can tax the shiite out of you. Two boxes per passport, average 500+ USD per box. Side bar: I had a friend that tried to sneak out 8 boxes using fake factory receipts. He paid 300 USD @ box to his taxi driver.. When he went thru out-bound customs, he was caught. He was allowed to keep ONE box..
These people are dying to get help, and I think we can use capitalism to flood them out from under the Castro brothers..
craigepo
12-18-2014, 11:12
Infiltrate. Saturate. Dominate.
Once the dollars start flowing in to build hotels and casinos, buy rum and cigars, start some dive shops, maybe a factory or export center, those commie bastards will fall in line like union leaders at Marion Berry's D.C. mayor's office. The brothers Castro are nothing but thugs---thugs love money.
Dean Jarvis
12-18-2014, 11:17
I'm going down there and pick me up a nice '57 Chevy and several cases of Romeo y Julieta Reserva Real cigars :munchin
Trapper John
12-18-2014, 12:42
I have been on the fence for this topic for 30 yrs. Living in South Florida you run the gambit of Ultra left & right.
I'm an open market kinda guy, so I lean toward normalization with Cuba.
I think we can destroy them (Fidel & other Commies) with capitalism... Currently Cubans have no or little idea what the US is. If we send a Bazillion Tourista to Cuba,, with an appropriate number of Capitalist to develop the industry?? Who knows..
Not that Capitalism destroyed China & Russia?? It did do better in Germany and some of the other East Block countries.
My $00.0002
Once again we agree JJ. This is getting a little scary. :D
I see this as an economic opportunity and a stepping stone to having greater influence is South America. A neglected geopolitical region for far too long in my opinion.
Besides maybe we can start drinking real Coke with real sugar. ;)
I am ambivalent about it. On one hand, clearly 50 years of an embargo hasn't worked.
On the other.....
From Genocide Watch, deaths between 1959 and 1999:
-97,000 persons have been named, each confirmed by at least two sources.
-30,000 firing squad,
-2,000 extra-judicial assassinations
-5,000 deaths in prison
-60,000 deaths while trying to escape Cuba by sea
Total: 194,000
From Cuba Archive, deaths between 1959 and 2007:
-85,675 deaths from the revolution itself
- 4,074 Firing squad executions
-1,334 Extrajudicial killings not in prison
-219 Missing and disappeared
-2,215 Other, including deaths in prison
-77,833 "Balseros" (escape by sea)
Total: 171,350
From R.J. Rummel, "Statistics of Democide" deaths between 1959-1987:
-35,000 to 141,000 people killed
This, out of a population of 7,000,000 +/- (at the time)
Team Sergeant
12-18-2014, 12:44
I'm going down there and pick me up a nice '57 Chevy and several cases of Romeo y Julieta Reserva Real cigars :munchin
Let me know when we're going!!! ;)
I'm not sure our current mastery of laissez-faire capitalism is really in any condition to whip Cuba into shape...
...if I was to pour investment money into Cuba it wouldn't be "because" of our current style of American capitalism, it would be to protect it from American style capitalism.
Guymullins
12-18-2014, 13:08
The more likely outcome, rather than Capitalism finally felling the Cuban government is that the Cuban population relocates to the USA so as to experience Capitalism first hand and instantly.
Oldrotorhead
12-18-2014, 13:15
I was going to post this in comedy but it ish't funny.
Team Sergeant
12-18-2014, 14:49
Let's normalize with Iran and North Korea while we're at it. :rolleyes:
While I tend to agree Cuba does not pose a threat to our national security.
And as was mentioned, we have the ability to change their leadership without firing a shot.
We already have relations with Russia and China, time we embrace Cuba and change it for the better.
ddoering
12-18-2014, 15:17
Another thing is that this will cock-block the Russians and get them out of our pond.
Infiltrate. Saturate. Dominate.
Once the dollars start flowing in to build hotels and casinos, buy rum and cigars, start some dive shops, maybe a factory or export center, those commie bastards will fall in line like union leaders at Marion Berry's D.C. mayor's office. The brothers Castro are nothing but thugs---thugs love money.
Isn't that the stuff that the revolution did away with? It makes the last 50+ years sort of a waste of time and an admitted admission of failure on their part.
Isn't that the stuff that the revolution did away with? It makes the last 50+ years sort of a waste of time and an admitted admission of failure on their part.
YES it was,,
If you want the classic definition of South American Dictator??
Read about El Hombre,, Fulgencio Batista y Zaldívar
If you want to read about the mid-century American Crime Syndicate's influence in World Politics??
Read up on Myer Lansky and Batista
:munchin
la piña Noriega learned about about being a corrupt dictator from his formative years watching Batista's Cuba.. As did several others in SA.. And it continues more or less unabated in SA now..
Trapper John
12-18-2014, 18:28
YES it was,,
If you want the classic definition of South American Dictator??
Read about El Hombre,, Fulgencio Batista y Zaldívar
If you want to read about the mid-century American Crime Syndicate's influence in World Politics??
Read up on Myer Lansky and Batista
:munchin
la piña Noriega learned about about being a corrupt dictator from his formative years watching Batista's Cuba.. As did several others in SA.. And it continues more or less unabated in SA now..
BINGO!! :lifter
craigepo
12-18-2014, 20:48
Isn't that the stuff that the revolution did away with? It makes the last 50+ years sort of a waste of time and an admitted admission of failure on their part.
I'm not sure the next 20 years worth of Cuban leaders will be the same staunch communists that Fidel and Che' were. They seem more like amoral tyrranical gangsters, but I stand to be corrected.
The Cuban communists, like communists everywhere, are guilty of atrocious crimes, nothing less than what some Serbians were tried for. It would seem like, now that the Cuban people have tasted 50 years of embargo life, maybe this change could open a floodgate.
It would be a good time for a Reagan to show up on the scene. A good speech at the Brandenberg gate and broadcast throughout the world and Cuba might accomplish something. Too bad B. Hussein Obama is no Reagan
Roguish Lawyer
12-18-2014, 21:29
Well if it was up to me, I would unleash 7th Group on Cuba AND Venezuela. But WTF do I know . . . :munchin
RL ask for it so here it is the first melt, get your waders and rod ready....
The Tehran Times
On Line: 28 December 2014 18:55
In Print: Monday 29 December 2014
The first series of U.S. author Mary Pope Osborne’s “The Magic Tree House” has been published in Persian in Iran. http://tehrantimes.com/arts-and-culture/120533-art-news-in-brief
Check out the politics. Interesting speculation
http://tehrantimes.com/politics/120525-thawing-us-ties-cuba-today-iran-tomorrow
Badger52
12-28-2014, 15:14
Check out the politics. Interesting speculation
http://tehrantimes.com/politics/120525-thawing-us-ties-cuba-today-iran-tomorrow
It certainly looks as if, in covering the messages, they are sending one.
Iranian leaders are less likely to accept any compromises on their top foreign policy priorities, such as: keeping President Bashar al-Assad in power, withdrawing its financial, advisory, intelligence, and military support to the Iraqi and Syrian governments.
:munchin
The Iran leadership is framing the conversation in opening their position to the public. imo, there is no doubt relations will be improved, watch for one of the three current prisoners to be released, hopefully it'll be the Marine,
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/24/world/middleeast/ex-marine-held-in-iranian-prison-suspends-hunger-strike.html
Badger52
01-20-2015, 06:45
$5 the released USAID guy is present at the SOTU.Anybody here get their cigars yet? (http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2015/01/19/freed-cuban-prisoner-alan-gross-will-be-obama-guest-at-state-union/) :cool:
Alan Gross and his wife, Judy, are among 22 special guests the White House invited to Tuesday night's speech. The president's guests also include at least three Latinos: a Dreamer, a former homeless man and a researcher trying to raise Latinos' awareness of climate change.
Anybody here get their cigars yet? (http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2015/01/19/freed-cuban-prisoner-alan-gross-will-be-obama-guest-at-state-union/) :cool:
No, and I didn't get an invite to the SOTU speech.. :mad:
Lionshare
01-27-2015, 21:46
.
So am I to understand that someone who has been an enemy of the USA for most of the last 60 years does not trust the politicians in Washington DC ?
Stunning.