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Solid
12-16-2004, 03:14
Hello everyone,

I'm not sure this is the right forum for this question, but it was the one forum that I knew of with a PT thread in it already. I apologise sincerely if it's in the wrong place.
Since August I have been doing a high level of bodyweight-only training consisting largely of push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups and running. As an apparent result of this training, I have lost a lot of the muscle mass I had before I began, in exchange for muscle strength. This body type was ideal for what I was doing at the time. However, now I want to play Rugby, which requires a lot more muscle mass. As such, I have started weight training again, three times a week. However, I am maintaining my 300 press ups 200 sit ups 'core strength' five-times-a-week regime. I was wondering if these 'core strength' exercises would prevent or slow the growth of my muscle mass?
If so, is there a level of 'core strength' training which I can maintain that will not jeapordize my muscle-mass training?

Thank you and again I apologise if this is in the wrong place,

Solid

alphamale
12-17-2004, 06:25
I have lost a lot of the muscle mass I had before I began, in exchange for muscle strength.Hi Solid!

OK, no one else has asked this so I guess that statement makes sense to everyone else, but I can't suspend my curiousity any longer:

Did you really mean that as you wrote it?

Losing muscle mass makes you stronger?

:: I have a chance after all, she wonders? ::

FrontSight

Huey14
12-17-2004, 07:03
What position?

NousDefionsDoc
12-17-2004, 08:25
Its actually fairly simple, unlike your question.

If you want to get big, lift low reps/heavy weight and eat. Rest a lot. Keep cardio to a minimum.

If you want to get fit and fast - go the other way.

You can't train everything all the time.

Your genetics will limit you. Ahnold is Ahnold mostly because he is Ahnold, not because of his training regimen. That he works hard means he made the most of his genetics.

Achilles
12-17-2004, 09:32
Well, to be honest with you without doing a pushup for about a month and just doing weights I could still do about 90 pushups on the APFT. You can keep doing pushups just don't do any the day before you work your chest out with weights, the day of, or the day after. Doing extremely high repitition excersizes like pushups, for me at least, I start to plateau really fast. Do you see a large improvement in your pushups every week? After about 3 weeks, I don't. A scientist in Russia about 20 years back did a study and the best increases in strength were from the guys who were doing 3 sets of 6. You can always do heavy sets then do your last set with drastically less weight for conditioning. Or, you could lift weights hard at the beginning of the week then do a lot of boxing on a day later in the week for conditioning. Recovery and diet are key for these. Definately keep running and doing cardio if you want to be in good shape for rugby, but eat even more food to make up for it. As for sit ups, do them on a decline bench with barbell weight on your chest once or twice a week, and on other days just do them like you normally do.

You can PM me if you want a good chest workout.

I haven't tried kettlebells yet, but they look like a pretty good solution to strength vs endurance. Regular cals (used alone) don't do much for me.

Just my .02

Solid
12-17-2004, 10:38
Sorry if my question was abstruse, I'm still recovering from some serious jet-lag. Thanks for the responses. It just doesn't feel right not to drop and knock out a set of pushups a few times a day! I suppose I will have to abandon the pushups for now and focus on weight training. As for plateaus with high-rep exercises: I've been comfortably capable of 100 pushups for quite a while now. I find that yes, there is some sort of plateau, but by changing the number of reps in your sets you can train yourself past the plateau within a few weeks. Nevertheless, there is a point when doing so many reps becomes boring...

NDD- Could you expand on that 'genetics' statement? I've heard some other people mention it but they've never been able to offer a decent explanation. Always sounded like they were just being lazy.

Thank you everyone for the advice,

Solid (Future Flanker)

Polar Bear
12-17-2004, 11:07
Mesomorph Body Types are characterised with broad shoulders, narrow waist, naturally large muscles and fast metabolism due to the amount of lean muscle. For men a mesomorph looks like a natural muscle man with a heavy, hard and athletic physique.

Ectomorph Body Types are characterised with a thin, linear appearance. They often possess narrow waist, hips and shoulders. The ectomorph also has a low body fat percentage.

Ectomorph Body Types may be considered lucky to some people because their linear appearance and ultra fast metabolism enables the ectomorph to stay slim even if they eat well, however the downfall is ectomorphs lack shape due to their low muscle weight. Lean muscle weight is what gives us that shapely figure.

Achilles
12-17-2004, 11:23
Translation: If you're an ectomorph you need to eat more to gain the same amount of weight. I'm about 5'11-6', and my freshman year here at UT I went from 153 pounds to 185. I was very skinny in high school but with about 6 months of weight training and a normal diet I was benchpressing 255. When I came here I lived in the dorms and went downstairs to eat (full meals with a concentration in protein, like burgers or philly cheesesteaks) every 3 or 4 hours every day. I suppose you could use whey protein for a similar effect, but when I gained the most weight the only supplement I used was creatine. Theres debate on creatine, and I haven't used it since I enlisted. But the bottom line on creatine is that it lets you work out harder and longer with no noticable side effects (the very best creatine supplement is Swole V2 bar none). I also had a weight training class which I went to 3 times a week. The only difference between then and now is my diet, and I weigh 20 pounds less (albeit stronger). The key is lots of food and recovery time. You can still keep up the endurance if you just eat even more to make up for it. Some of it is hormones too, wait another year or so and it should be easier for you to put on more weight.

I hope that helps.

Polar Bear
12-17-2004, 11:54
I am a Ectomorph. When I joined the Army I was 6'8" and 195lbs when I left 235lbs. When I was in garrison I ate 3 squares a day 2 MRE and 2 protein drinks and WORKED OUT all the time. I switched it up about every other month. Low reps heavy weight, then high reps, low weight. During the high rep cycle I would rep to total failure.

Example: Bench Press 220lbs until failure drop 20lbs reps until failure etc. When I got to 100lbs I would do 3 sets of push ups until failure.

Razor
12-17-2004, 12:29
Achilles, have you considered that the sudden muscle mass gain may have been primarily due to maturation and a natural increase in testosterone, rather than a specific physical training routine? Young men experiencing sudden muscle mass/strength gains between 17-20 years old is not an unusual event. Surely, following a rigorous training program helps develop the new muscle properly, but I'd be more likely to attribute you sudden gains to your body developing and ending puberty. As for creatine not having any noticable side effects, you didn't notice you tended to dehydrate faster, and needed to take in 3-4 times the amount of water than you did before taking creatine? This puts an unnatural strain on the kidneys (assuming you take measures to remain properly hydrated), which over time could be potentially harmful. I'm not sure I'd be willing to risk kidney failure in the long run for temporary increases in workout endurance.

Solid
12-17-2004, 12:58
Looking at body shape and metabolism, I'm almost certainly a mesomorph. Before I started my initial training here at college, I weighed around 80kg (at 6 to 6 1" height) and had naturally large (emphasis on size, not density or strength) muscles. After training I weigh about 70kg and my muscles are far leaner and more toned. Right now I'm especially skinny, but have retained the broad shoulders and back I had before training. As a mesomorph, can I get away with not eating a lot of extra food? I always ate at meals and whenever I felt hungry, as it seems to me a logical way of responding to my body's needs. Do I need to conciously 'over eat' to increase my muscle size?

Thank you all for your help,

Solid

Achilles
12-17-2004, 14:00
Achilles, have you considered that the sudden muscle mass gain may have been primarily due to maturation and a natural increase in testosterone, rather than a specific physical training routine? Young men experiencing sudden muscle mass/strength gains between 17-20 years old is not an unusual event. Surely, following a rigorous training program helps develop the new muscle properly, but I'd be more likely to attribute you sudden gains to your body developing and ending puberty. As for creatine not having any noticable side effects, you didn't notice you tended to dehydrate faster, and needed to take in 3-4 times the amount of water than you did before taking creatine? This puts an unnatural strain on the kidneys (assuming you take measures to remain properly hydrated), which over time could be potentially harmful. I'm not sure I'd be willing to risk kidney failure in the long run for temporary increases in workout endurance.

Roger, I always drink a lot of water every day, training or not. I drank even more when I used creatine. I never noticed any side effects while using creatine (~2-3 gallons of water a day). I apologize for not pointing out that increased water consumption is necessary for creatine to even work.

Also, as the sudden gain in muscle mass could be attributed to rising testosterone levels, I still can't gain as much muscle as I did then today without eating 5-6 large meals a day. Large diet or not, its not likely I could have gained that weight when I was 17 as opposed to 19. I never plateaud on strength when I was skinner, but I had a hell of a time getting any beach muscles.

:lifter

Solid: The more you eat the more you gain. When your muscles are sore from doing a hard workout, eat as much as you can; concentrate on protein of course (beef and fish have high creatine content FYI). Imbetween meals I'd recommend making a whey protein shake. Get as many calories as you possibly can and you will gain mass easily. Do very tough chest/back/leg workouts that work as many muscles possible from as many angles possible.

Model chest workout:

Benchpress 2 sets of 8 (heavy as you can) then 1 set of 6 where you do as MUCH as you can, usually needing assistance on the last repitition.
Incline dumbell press 3x8
Decline dumbell press 3x8
Dips 3x 80% of maximum
Cable chest flies - 3x12
skull crushers 3x10
tricep cable extensions 4x15

Rest and stretch between each set. I'm not sure how good this is for "military" type strength, but it works great for me.

Solid
12-17-2004, 16:49
Achilles: Thanks for the recommendation. Out of curiousity, have any mesomorphs attained good muscle mass increase without drastically altering their diet (but still trying to eat protein at every meal)?

Thanks,

Solid

Achilles
12-17-2004, 17:31
I'm more of the ecto type, but I'd say your question depends entirely on YOUR metabolism. Start altering your training and change up your diet and check results. Good luck with rugby, Solid.

HTH

WillBrink
05-04-2006, 17:47
Edit: Deleted by Kyobanim

Kyobanim
05-04-2006, 18:06
WillBrink,

Please fill out your profile before you post anymore.

The Reaper
05-04-2006, 18:44
And introduce yourself in the proper place.

We like to know who we are arguing with.

TR

TacticallyFit
05-21-2006, 11:07
I have heard that SF soldiers need iron legs and a steel back to get them through all the running and load bearing. Strength endurance is neccessary for the entire body for the demanding physical activities, but the main consontration of strength training should be on the back and legs.

Do the "Quiet Professionals" think this is true?

I am going to be tailoring my entire fitness system around this need and want to know what the real men have to say. I do not think that an SF soldier needs to be able to bench a hugh weight to make it. Is a big bench needed in any way?

Train Hard - Fight Easy

:lifter

Warrior-Mentor
05-21-2006, 14:13
WillBrink,

Please fill out your profile before you post anymore.

Boy, I didn't even hear the blades on that black helicopter...

Huey14
05-28-2006, 04:36
I figured I would put this in here since it's an advice thread. If it's not right, let me know (as I know you will :D).

I've started a fitness regime so I can loose weight and get fit. I'd like to tailor this to police work.

So my question is: Which parts of the body are important for a cop to have strength? I was thinking grip and forearms would be important to make strong but I'm not certain.

There's a few ex/current coppers on here which is why I put it on here.

Thanks a lot.

R

Jack Moroney (RIP)
05-28-2006, 06:56
I have been reading a lot of these threads with some amusement, not that I think any of you are not genuine in what you are seeking. However, the bottom line is that you need to understand exactly what it is that you are going to be required to do. What tasks are you going to have to perform, to what standard and under what conditions. Once you do that I think you will be able to answer most of your questions yourself. There is no magic bullet, no special machine, no one program that will meet each and every one of your needs. There is a basic goal, and that is total fitness. I have known and worked with many folks of all abilities under a variety of conditions and while they could all meet whatever standards were required for the various physical fitness tests and measurements each brough to the effort different levels of fitness in different areas. Warrior-Mentor has done an excellent job in removing a lot of the "unknowns" on how to prepare for selection but that is not necessarily your "program for life". Each of you are physiologically different, are different ages, have different strengths and limitations: use what works, work on those areas that need improvement, and develop a program that provides strength, endurance and that can be followed, maintained, and improved upon as you progress to meet the needs of your profession.

As far as how important being able to "bench press a lot of weight" is concerned, that too has its place. For those of you that see yourself as leaders and wish to accept that mantel, then understand that leaders lead from the front and need to set the example for everything and that includes physical fitness. It doesn't mean that you are the most fit, but it does mean that you are maximizing your potential, are able to perform your reponsibilities without dragging down your organization, are not the weak link, and are performing to the level that ensures your folks can perform to theirs without being concerned about your physical limitations. There may be instances where you are going to be the only one in "Dodge" that is able to step up to the bar because you have the ability to heft a bunch of weight . While I cannot guarantee you that it will come for you it has come to me on several occassions and you best be up to the challenge for the sake of your mission and the men who are looking to you for leadership or reaching out to you for help. You see, at this point, it is not longer about failing yourself but it is about failing your team and that is one failure that is unforgiveable. For those of you that are into other folks' quotes and need a little inspiration to drive you to excell Vince Lombardi defined well. He said,"Fatique makes cowards of us all".

TacticallyFit
05-28-2006, 14:45
I figured I would put this in here since it's an advice thread. If it's not right, let me know (as I know you will :D).

I've started a fitness regime so I can loose weight and get fit. I'd like to tailor this to police work.

So my question is: Which parts of the body are important for a cop to have strength? I was thinking grip and forearms would be important to make strong but I'm not certain.

There's a few ex/current coppers on here which is why I put it on here.

Thanks a lot.

R

I'm not in any way an expert on grip strength training, but I do know a good bit about the subject. I would send you to Gripboard.com and find some LEOs on there that are into grip training. Great site on any kind of REAL men strength training, too. Got my Mash Monster level 0 Cert. through this site. Got to Mashmonster.com for details on some of the strongest gripguys on the planet. I am currently (to the best of my knowledge) one of the two teenagers, world wide, that have received the MM0 Cert.

Joel Powell

booker
05-28-2006, 21:56
I have been reading a lot of these threads with some amusement, not that I think any of you are not genuine in what you are seeking. However, the bottom line is that you need to understand exactly what it is that you are going to be required to do... You see, at this point, it is not longer about failing yourself but it is about failing your team and that is one failure that is unforgiveable. For those of you that are into other folks' quotes and need a little inspiration to drive you to excell Vince Lombardi defined well. He said,"Fatique makes cowards of us all".


Very inspirational sir, thank you.