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therunningwolf
11-03-2014, 00:02
I am currently in the planning stages of building a Piston SBR. My planned barrel length is going to be either a 10.5 or a 11.5 with a 9 inch BCM KMR rail. This rifle will be run primarily with a suppressor, and be used for police work (high risk warrants/ active shooter) with small buildings with tight corridors, and meth labs being common in my AO. For reference I have very little experience with piston systems as well as SBRs, I currently have a BCM EAG Carbine. It is my first and currently only AR, it has served my usage perfectly to this point and I consider it the standard to strive for when building this new rifle. Through reading I have heard repeatedly that DI rifles get less reliable the shorter the barrel and that a piston system will fix this as well as make running a suppressor much more comfortable, alleviating the "Getting spit in the face" issue.

My questions for the members here are:

What are your experiences with a piston system SBR (10.5 or 11.5 inch barrel)? Is there any noticeable differences between running one suppressed and un-suppressed?

I have only been able to find Adams Arms piston kits, places like PWS and LWRC don't appear to sale them anymore, rather they sale uppers or full rifles only. Do you know of any quality piston kits? If so do they have a low profile gas block that can fit over a BCM KMR rail?

Does anyone have an experience with Adams Arms piston kits? Good product? Bad?

The intended range for this rifle will be within 100 yards. How much accuracy loss if any have you noticed from barrels in the 10.5 to 11.5 inch range? What is considered average grouping size at 50 and 100 yards?


These are the questions I have been able to think of off the top of my head, I may come up with more later. Any advice ya'll can provide that would help me with getting this together would be much appreciated. Thanks for your time.

The Reaper
11-03-2014, 10:12
Good question.

I have run SBRs at 10.5" and 11.5", with pistons and DI, with and without cans and they all ran fine, albeit much dirtier with the cans.

Have you called PWS and asked them if they can sell you an upper?

Does POF not sell uppers any more?

Best of luck.

TR

Oldrotorhead
11-03-2014, 11:03
Good question.

I have run SBRs at 10.5" and 11.5", with pistons and DI, with and without cans and they all ran fine, albeit much dirtier with the cans.

Have you called PWS and asked them if they can sell you an upper?

Does POF not sell uppers any more?

Best of luck.

TR

I would also call PWS. I talked to them several times and they were always helpful. I have a 14.5" upper that runs flawlessly with and without a can. They do have a number of dealers so you may get your questions answered locally.

35NCO
11-04-2014, 11:34
I would caution that you should do more research on whatís available if you have serious concerns about explosive environments. Most of my knowledge on the subject is open source, but a few thoughts come to mind. (Best Weapon, Cartridge and Suppressor combination for explosive environments today, would be an awesome study for someone to do. If itís not out there now?)

I assume you are talking about 5.56? In this situation given your needs you might want to look at specific loads vs. barrel length to give you the most complete powder burn. I say this because the unburned powder can build up in the suppressor and actually cause more sparks and unexpected hot spots. This can be true for the chamber and ejection area as well with SBRís. It would also apply to keeping your weapon and suppressor as clean as possible to help mitigate that threat.

Some of the older studies I have read for explosive environments were usage of 9mm MP5ís with AWC MK9 or Gemtech MK9K suppressors. At the time those were some of the best suppressors for those environments due to the volume, design and cartridge. Today I am sure there may be things out there that are much better. Unless there is some really interesting blast baffles that trap more now, I would think in theory a wipe and baffle design with high volume and limited shots would be the best answer as long as you had 100% powder burn.

As far as pistons go, I would be hesitant on bolt on/clamp on kits like Adams arms because ( I would fear) they could hammer themselves off if not properly mounted. I question how much a beating they can take. I think they make sense if you can pin them to the barrel like a regular site block. There is another company that has an add on that was even simpler (osprey?), although I cannot attest to its quality. I do know, that it uses the factory M4 pinned site block.

Other considerations would be what brands have been known to run well suppressed. The change in impulse sometimes requires a different setting on piston guns. If itís a non-adjustable kit that may cause problems for you in basic reliability and tailoring it to custom powder loads.

Otherwise I would look at well known brands like LWRC. Often, LWRC uppers are available on Gunbroker and sites like that on a regular basis. Donít hesitate to call any company you are wondering about first though. Often times LE/MIL sales are not always advertised. If you want to spend big money, you can always get an HK416 upper. ($2 -3-4k? for LE/MIL) Also, agree about the above posted brands.

69harley
11-04-2014, 12:47
I would caution that you should do more research on whatís available if you have serious concerns about explosive environments. Most of my knowledge on the subject is open source, but a few thoughts come to mind. (Best Weapon, Cartridge and Suppressor combination for explosive environments today, would be an awesome study for someone to do. If itís not out there now?)

I assume you are talking about 5.56? In this situation given your needs you might want to look at specific loads vs. barrel length to give you the most complete powder burn. I say this because the unburned powder can build up in the suppressor and actually cause more sparks and unexpected hot spots. This can be true for the chamber and ejection area as well with SBRís. It would also apply to keeping your weapon and suppressor as clean as possible to help mitigate that threat.

Some of the older studies I have read for explosive environments were usage of 9mm MP5ís with AWC MK9 or Gemtech MK9K suppressors. At the time those were some of the best suppressors for those environments due to the volume, design and cartridge. Today I am sure there may be things out there that are much better. Unless there is some really interesting blast baffles that trap more now, I would think in theory a wipe and baffle design with high volume and limited shots would be the best answer as long as you had 100% powder burn.

As far as pistons go, I would be hesitant on bolt on/clamp on kits like Adams arms because ( I would fear) they could hammer themselves off if not properly mounted. I question how much a beating they can take. I think they make sense if you can pin them to the barrel like a regular site block. There is another company that has an add on that was even simpler (osprey?), although I cannot attest to its quality. I do know, that it uses the factory M4 pinned site block.

Other considerations would be what brands have been known to run well suppressed. The change in impulse sometimes requires a different setting on piston guns. If itís a non-adjustable kit that may cause problems for you in basic reliability and tailoring it to custom powder loads.

Otherwise I would look at well known brands like LWRC. Often, LWRC uppers are available on Gunbroker and sites like that on a regular basis. Donít hesitate to call any company you are wondering about first though. Often times LE/MIL sales are not always advertised. If you want to spend big money, you can always get an HK416 upper. ($2 -3-4k? for LE/MIL) Also, agree about the above posted brands.

My best friend is the armorer at Osprey. I just got off the phone with him, he told me that Osprey has not offered a piston driven AR15 based rifle. When we spoke he was in the room with Grange, who also confirmed that Osprey has never built a piston operated rifle.

therunningwolf
11-04-2014, 13:24
After doing some reading and from the info I have been getting from members here, I am starting to lean more toward a DI SBR with an adjustable gas block. I think this will solve most of the issues I want it to. My next few questions relate to ammunition choices in different environments and in relation to barrel lengths.

I have settled on a 11.5 inch barrel, my questions with it:

What have the members here found to be a good grain bullet while using a 11.5 inch barrel? Both suppressed and un-suppressed?

Are there currently any production ammo that will ensure 100% powder burn or are these reloads? This rifle will be chambered in 5.56.

If I am looking at reloads for effective use of a 11.5 inch suppressed 5.56 in an explosive environment does anyone have any loads that they have used to good effect they can recommend? Meaning any info I would need to produce them myself not the actual rounds.

Is there any members that has experience they wouldn't mind sharing (via pm if necessary) on working in explosive environments? (Meth labs, etc.)

So far the build I have in mind is as follows:
BCM 11.5 inch barrel
BCM upper and parts
BCM or Fail Zero BCG
BCM Ambi Charging handle
Syrac Ordnance adjustable gas block
Griffin Armament M4SD II comp.
Troy Irons with a CSAT aperture and Tritium Front sight post
Aimpoint T-1
DBAL I2
SureFire Fury
BCM KMR, still up in the air about if I want the 9 inch or 10 inch.

The Reaper
11-04-2014, 14:03
You are going to be at indoor distances only for fragmentation effect from the 11.5" barrel with virtually any load.

There will be a large fireball without the can with almost all factory loads. You may be able to mitigate this effect somewhat by handloading, but I do not know of any commercially available 5.56 powder that will burn 100% in a 11.5." Very few canister powders have flash retardant applied. Surprisingly, several military loads do not have flash retardant either.

There are costs to going short.

Most makers do not guarantee function if you are building a Frankenrifle. I would look for a vendor that sells a complete rifle or upper.

I would not use this in an explosive environment without a can, and would do some testing before I tried it live.

Best of luck.

TR

miclo18d
11-04-2014, 16:42
How about ditch the rifle and serve the warrants while they are out of the house. Then have EOD clear for booby traps and WHAMO! Problem solved, problem staying solved.

We are getting back to the Branch Davidian thought process again. Solve every problem with a 10" SBR and a can!

How about solving the problems with our brains?

To stay on topic though, I never had problems in "tight places" with my M4. :(

35NCO
11-04-2014, 16:56
My best friend is the armorer at Osprey.....

I think we are talking about different companies. I meant these guys below. Sorry I was going from memory, I should have been more specific. Its now "Osprey Defense".

http://www.ospreydefense.com/index-2.html

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/gas-system-parts/gas-piston-conversion-kits/ar-15-m16-gas-piston-conversion-kit-prod31987.aspx

Like I said, I cannot attest to whatever quality the product is. I have handled it and it seemed to make sense to me on how it works. I just have never shot one.

rubberneck
11-04-2014, 18:14
LMT makes a 12" SBR upper.

Peregrino
11-04-2014, 19:40
300BLK. It does just fine in SBR barrels with pistol length (DI) gas systems.

Brush Okie
11-04-2014, 23:48
300BLK. It does just fine in SBR barrels with pistol length (DI) gas systems.

How about 50 Beowulf and the other large caliber AR options? Just curious, my favorite CQB weapon is a 12 gauge pump, but that is just me.

Peregrino
11-05-2014, 07:38
How about 50 Beowulf and the other large caliber AR options? Just curious, my favorite CQB weapon is a 12 gauge pump, but that is just me.

Novelties. Find someone who has one and will let you play with it. You will figure it out for yourself very quickly - especially if they make you purchase your own ammo.

69harley
11-05-2014, 08:48
I think we are talking about different companies. I meant these guys below. Sorry I was going from memory, I should have been more specific. Its now "Osprey Defense".

http://www.ospreydefense.com/index-2.html

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/gas-system-parts/gas-piston-conversion-kits/ar-15-m16-gas-piston-conversion-kit-prod31987.aspx

Like I said, I cannot attest to whatever quality the product is. I have handled it and it seemed to make sense to me on how it works. I just have never shot one.

http://ospreyarmament.com

Five-O
11-06-2014, 07:11
How about ditch the rifle and serve the warrants while they are out of the house.
We are getting back to the Branch Davidian thought process again. Solve every problem with a 10" SBR and a can!

How about solving the problems with our brains?

:(

:lifter:lifter:lifter

RichL025
11-08-2014, 10:05
How about ditch the rifle and serve the warrants while they are out of the house. Then have EOD clear for booby traps and WHAMO! Problem solved, problem staying solved.

We are getting back to the Branch Davidian thought process again. Solve every problem with a 10" SBR and a can!

How about solving the problems with our brains?

To stay on topic though, I never had problems in "tight places" with my M4. :(

This is why we need a "LIKE" button for this forum...

Sorry, OP, but you have to realize that many of us feel that law enforcement is WAAAAAYYYYYY too quick to don the black jumpsuit, body armor and rifles.... I'm a law-and-order guy myself, but the militarization of police has gone way too far.

You are preparing for close-range firefights when you should be practicing conflict resolution...

Police departments with Hummvees? MRAPS? Automatic weapons?

And now, I am going to sit back and wait for multiple comments about how out of touch I am about the dangers modern law enforcement faces....

Maybe so, but the perception _I_ have is widely shared... so ask yourself - how did this become an "us-against-them" situation?

therunningwolf
11-08-2014, 17:35
This is why we need a "LIKE" button for this forum...

Sorry, OP, but you have to realize that many of us feel that law enforcement is WAAAAAYYYYYY too quick to don the black jumpsuit, body armor and rifles.... I'm a law-and-order guy myself, but the militarization of police has gone way too far.

You are preparing for close-range firefights when you should be practicing conflict resolution...

Police departments with Hummvees? MRAPS? Automatic weapons?

And now, I am going to sit back and wait for multiple comments about how out of touch I am about the dangers modern law enforcement faces....

Maybe so, but the perception _I_ have is widely shared... so ask yourself - how did this become an "us-against-them" situation?

It's no problem, I do agree that the police force is getting too militarized in their approach. 99% of the problems we encounter can be solved without unnecessary force escalation and we practice this often. The problem I am preparing for is that last 1%. Many meth cooks are overly paranoid, and while Miclo's solution would work on the dealers, the serious cooks will not leave their labs for very long periods of time, if ever. We simply do not have the resources to have an officer (we only have 3 patrolman on shift during the day, 2 at night) watching every meth cooks house 24/7 to see when he/she leaves. Plus during that time there is no telling how much product he/she is producing and how many kids we are gonna find dead from it.

I mean no disrespect in this next statement, but it is how I feel and I believe many of my brothers in blue will agree. Law enforcement is one of the few jobs where everyone knows how to do your job better then you do. What I mean by that is you will never hear me tell a QP how to do their job, or a Doctor how to do their's, but it seems everyone knows how to do police work, it's something you just learn to deal with. In law enforcement you are under a level of scrutiny about every single choice you make both in your work and private life like nothing I experienced while .MIL. My job is to protect and serve my community to the best of my abilities, I will preform this duty with the calmest mind and lowest level of force necessary but I would rather be seen as to militaristic in my approach by some, then seen as having done nothing when I could have to save a life by the County and people I am sworn to protect.

miclo18d
11-09-2014, 10:29
I'm not trying to tell you how to do your job. Im telling you how NOT to do mine.

So what you are saying is that you need a 10" SBR avec silencer, to raid a methlab in a trailer park. What's wrong with your pistol or an MP5, they aren't cool enough anymore? SBR's came on line not for CQB, but for work inside of vehicles. M4 length weapons have no problems working inside structures. As far as raiding a methlab...screw that! That's like raiding an IED factory. Not going to end well when things go wrong. And we know what Murphy has to say about that.

I know what the answer will be. They are packing too much fire power in there. Well that's why I'm saying not to use a raid but to use your brain. Just as your patrolmen can't be there 24/7, they can't be vigilant 24/7, or they can on meth but not when they come down.

Barrel length is all to do with terminal ballistics. The shorter you go, the closer you have to be to "kill" (effectively penetrate) the target. As has been covered already, your ammunition doesn't get to burn all of the powder. This produces lower muzzle velocity (read: penetration power) and increases flammable gasses (read: unburned powder) from the muzzle.

Did the bullet make the gun or did the gun make the bullet? The original 55gr bullet was designed to be fired out of a 20 inch barrel with a 1in14 twist and fragment within 10 inches of penetration. As we changed to shorter barrels we had to use heavier bullets and add twist to stabilize the round to get the proper penetration.

What I'm saying here is that that 10" SBR is a one trick pony. Cool to show off at the range. Okay for close protection and CQB but terrible out past 100 yds. Hopefully those methlabs don't have cleared fields of fire, and long barreled rifles. You could be bringing an "pistol" to a Long gun fight.

therunningwolf
11-09-2014, 16:21
Sir,

MP5s would be perfect for this application, but my department can't afford them and our city won't go for it. My city leadership is very reluctant on increasing our budget thus things like us asking for funds to buy body armor for new officers, they think it'a a one size fit all kinda deal and that xxxl armor should fit this new small sized officer just fine. Right now 80% of the radars in our patrol cars don't work and 60% of the dash cams are broken, along with a host of others issues with each car we have been trying to get the funds to fix for years. We need what little budget we get to fix our cars and for daily operations.

I can afford an AR, but I don't make enough for an MP5. It's not the perfect solution, but we aren't like the feds with a huge budget, this is all coming out of my pay check. My 16 inch works fine, but with a can it gets kinda long indoors, plus it is painted camo, not exactly LEO colors and gets me some looks. A 11-12 inch barrel with the suppressor I have will bring the rifle to around 16 inches overall, I'm used to working with that. My purpose with going to a SBR is to keep from trying to clear a house/trailer or school with a 22 inch barrel.

Thank you for the insight you provided, I'll take it to heart.

RichL025
11-09-2014, 17:27
RW,

Thank you for your nice, thoughtful reply.

However, I would have to agree with miclo that a nice 9mm carbine would be much safer than firing rifle ammunition inside of a housetrailer. OK, none of us can afford a MP5, but I have to wonder how much a SBR + a suppressor would cost. Those things ain't cheap! Plus, since you are LEO are you exempt from all the ATF hassle, tax stamps, 6 month wait, etc etc?

Do methheads wear body armor?

This is a bit outside of my expertise, but I would _think_ that a 9mm pistol round, fired from a longer barrel (ie, carbine) would leave less unburned powder & therefore flash & explosive danger than a 5.56 out of a shorty barrel (but I defer to smarter ballsitic people if they disagree with me on this point)

Oh, and in reponse to one of your other statements, I AM a doctor, and people tell me how to do my job ALL THE FRIKKEN TIME. Usually it's preceeded by "Well, I know my body better than you do...."

The problem is, in BOTH of our professions, we have to work for those people who are continually second guessing us, and we have legal and ethical obligations to them. You have more legal oversight than I do, but I have more levels of burocracy overseeing my activities than you do....

Oldrotorhead
11-09-2014, 17:52
Rich025

"I AM a doctor, and people tell me how to do my job ALL THE FRIKKEN TIME."

Yeah? Well I want a second opinion! Why? I don't like what you just told me! :D

miclo18d
11-09-2014, 19:36
Thank you for the insight you provided, I'll take it to heart.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, really, I'm trying to think the scenarios through. There is always more ways than one to skin a cat. I have a feeling you are only looking at one. CQB is a great tool. Something I was really good at. I was introduced to it as a private in Ranger Batt and developed more skills in several units over about 15 years. Police and military missions are very different but can cross several similarities. What I have come to learn is that CQB missions are a technique, but there are other ways to skin that cat.

I want to stay on topic of your SBR. If you want a shorty, get it, but know what you are getting. Know what your limitations are. Personally, I like a 16" barrel with an mid length gas block, good accuracy, great ballistics, but still short enough to move around with.

Brush Okie
11-09-2014, 20:00
I'm not trying to be a jerk, really, I'm trying to think the scenarios through. There is always more ways than one to skin a cat. I have a feeling you are only looking at one. CQB is a great tool. Something I was really good at. I was introduced to it as a private in Ranger Batt and developed more skills in several units over about 15 years. Police and military missions are very different but can cross several similarities. What I have come to learn is that CQB missions are a technique, but there are other ways to skin that cat.

I want to stay on topic of your SBR. If you want a shorty, get it, but know what you are getting. Know what your limitations are. Personally, I like a 16" barrel with an mid length gas block, good accuracy, great ballistics, but still short enough to move around with.


Having been in LE I would like to say most LE are good folks doing a hard job and you don't hear about them, but you do the ass hats.

Saying that in my experience there is a real problem with not looking at options and thinking things through. They tend to follow SOP's without question and very rigidly at times. They train for the bad situation and tend to gravitate to that cool guy door kicker option more than they should. The increasing militarization of the police force comes from two factors IMHO.

First is the PERCEPTION the bad guys ae all armed to the teeth. The Bank shootout in LA in the 90's, miami shootout etc did not help, but all in all most bad guys are armed with whatever they can get and usually cant hit a barn with it.

Second is the cool factor and getting gee whiz gear then wanting to use it. Now meth heads need a lot of killing sometimes and they are like a damn zombie so I have no problem with available firepower for the cops when needed, but they have not been trained for the most part in proper use and tactics as well as other options ie take down in the street. BTW a street take down brings along other problems as well ie bystanders etc etc.

Over all I agree there is a growing problem with LE going overboard, but like many problems it is a complex problem with many contributing factors.

Toaster
11-09-2014, 20:21
I do hope you never have to forcefully enter a meth lab. I'd call that entering an IED not an IED factory. If I had to get someone out of a meth lab, my thought process goes to tear gas. While there may be some risk of an explosion, I think that would be far less than shooting any type of firearm inside some druggies chemistry lab with him possibly shooting an unsuppressed weapon back.

The department should be able to get post-86 suppressed MP5s for a whole lot cheaper than any civilian. There are probably grenade launchers available from the federal government that could handle tear gas rounds.

PSM
11-09-2014, 21:19
Sir,

MP5s would be perfect for this application, but my department can't afford them and our city won't go for it. My city leadership is very reluctant on increasing our budget thus things like us asking for funds to buy body armor for new officers, they think it'a a one size fit all kinda deal and that xxxl armor should fit this new small sized officer just fine. Right now 80% of the radars in our patrol cars don't work and 60% of the dash cams are broken, along with a host of others issues with each car we have been trying to get the funds to fix for years. We need what little budget we get to fix our cars and for daily operations.



Sorry, RW, but this post says it all. If your department can't afford the basics for patrol, then SWAT is a no-go. How much range time do you get just to be competent with your sidearm let alone the extra, specialized, training for CQB with a rifle? If your force can't handle the basics, it's not allowed to proceed to the advanced.

Pat

35NCO
11-09-2014, 21:46
The department should be able to get post-86 suppressed MP5s for a whole lot cheaper than any civilian. .

This one FTW.

RW, You seem to be talking about spending your own money? Why not get the Dept to work with a good Class 3/SOT about getting some weapons. A good Class 3 dealer should be ready for this kind of thing. I think a Post-86 MP5 is around $1500.00-$2500. A SOT could also build high volume suppressors if they know what they are doing. Find the biggest Class 3 guys in your area and see if they have Dealer sample letters from your Dept. If there is none in your state, look elsewhere to find one that can support you guys at the price bracket you want.

TacOfficer
11-09-2014, 22:12
Sorry, RW, but this post says it all. If your department can't afford the basics for patrol, then SWAT is a no-go. How much range time do you get just to be competent with your sidearm let alone the extra, specialized, training for CQB with a rifle? If your force can't handle the basics, it's not allowed to proceed to the advanced.

Pat

You may be a bit off the mark here,
Two things:
One, what do you think is more expensive, a Swat team or constant training and additional manpower of an entire dept. to cover officer's in training?

Two, this officer is putting his own money up to be prepared for scenarios he may encounter. Not financing the entire department.

Personally, the department I work for doesn't pay for squat. We buy are own weapons and pay for our own training. It's very typical. The department will cover the cost of qualifications.

Further more, like mine, his department may have policies proscribing which weapons he is authorized to deploy vs what he can "legally" have.

PSM
11-09-2014, 22:29
You may be a bit off the mark here,


No, I'm not:

(we only have 3 patrolman on shift during the day, 2 at night)

This doesn't strike me as a police "force". I'm a citizen who may find myself on the other side of that SBR and a taxpayer who employs that "operator". I'm just being honest.

Two, this officer is putting his own money up to be prepared for scenarios he may encounter. Not financing the entire department.

Personally, the department I work for doesn't pay for squat. We buy are own weapons and pay for our own training. It's very typical. The department will cover the cost of qualifications.

Further more, like mine, his department may have policies proscribing which weapons he is authorized to deploy vs what he can "legally" have.

Sorry, but you didn't add to my confidence level by telling me this. If you were talking about a volunteer fire department I'd be impressed.

Pat

TacOfficer
11-09-2014, 22:53
As a citizen, and the police,(it's possible to be both) I have much more confidence in an officer that cares enough to seek additional training and equipment to fulfill his duty, than some officers I have encountered in the past that do the bare minimum, and collect a check. But if your community feels more confident in an officer that shows up after the fact to take a report and maybe if they have the desire to write a parking ticket, good luck to you.

The fact he is in a small department, means they have even less money to spend and less manpower to accommodate on duty training.

As to your term "operator", frankly the word in this context sounds juvenile. If an officer referred to them self as one, he'd be laughed at and mocked till the cows came home by his peers. More appropriate would be: Officer, The Police or a kindly Sir never hurts. ;)

:munchin

PSM
11-09-2014, 23:13
As a citizen, and the police,(it's possible to be both) I have much more confidence in an officer that cares enough to seek additional training and equipment to fulfill his duty, than some officers I have encountered in the past that do the bare minimum, and collect a check.

His training is not integrated into a "team".

As to your term "operator", frankly the word in this context sounds juvenile. If an officer referred to them self as one, he'd be laughed at and mocked till the cows came home by his peers. More appropriate would be: Officer, The Police or a kindly Sir never hurts. ;)

:munchin

I know, but it appears that it may be a tacticool move to me hence the reference.

Just a FYI, my sister-in-law's father was Deputy Chief, LAPD, with Daryl Gates (so called father of SWAT) under Ed Davis. Gates took over LAPD after Davis and my SiL's father became Chief of another SoCal city. While he loved and admired Gates, he told me that the SWAT idea would eventually turn sour. Here we are.

Pat

TacOfficer
11-09-2014, 23:52
His training is not integrated into a "team".



I know, but it appears that it may be a tacticool move to me hence the reference.

Just a FYI, my sister-in-law's father was Deputy Chief, LAPD, with Darrel Gates (so called father of SWAT) under Ed Davis. Gates took over LAPD after Davis and my SiL's father became Chief of another SoCal city. While he loved and admired Gates, he told me that the SWAT idea would eventually turn sour. Here we are.

Pat

I can't say if he is training with others in his dept. or not. If he anticipates engaging in the scenarios alone, that's seriously flawed. I agree that on the training side it's best to train as a team, but his original post was strictly about the the tool in a very narrowly defined scenario: CQB/active shooter.

Speaking to SWAT, I believe it's a valid concept, its employment by some small departments has had some questionable isolated incidents.

Circumstances related in the other thread Rise of the Warrior cop, seem more to do with proper training and application and less so with equipment. To be honest, when my marked patrol car was shot, I wish I had an MRAP. After the fact we said the bullet hole gave the car character. :D

mugwump
11-10-2014, 07:46
Speaking to SWAT, I believe it's a valid concept, its employment by some small departments has had some questionable isolated incidents.

^^^ That's the problem in many civilians' eyes, including mine. Some studies show that around 60% of SWAT roll outs are for drug searches with a large proportion of those being no-knocks in the wee hours. You see isolated incidents, I see a large and growing problem. Add in a lack of oversight and accountability and the trend is worrisome.

That said, you have a very tough job that I wouldn't want to do and I thank you for your service.

Toaster
11-10-2014, 08:20
Back home where I'm from they have about 4 cities who go together for their SWAT team. The team members are not all from the same city. There's a good bit of money from oil refineries where I'm from, and I would guess that there's at least 120,000 people between the towns.

I'll wager that therunningwolf cannot get adequate supplies or training for the meth heads, and is just trying to figure out what is the best thing for him to do since his department is not capable of getting what he anticipates needing.

I'm just glad to know that there are police officers who think about their work and the things they may run into.

The Reaper
11-10-2014, 08:31
Some of the problem ties into the drug money and property seizure laws and municipalities (as well as LE agencies) see it as a source of income.

Hence the huge number of drug raids.

I think mugwump put it well.

TR

TacOfficer
11-10-2014, 09:01
^^^ That's the problem in many civilians' eyes, including mine. Some studies show that around 60% of SWAT roll outs are for drug searches with a large proportion of those being no-knocks in the wee hours. You see isolated incidents, I see a large and growing problem. Add in a lack of oversight and accountability and the trend is worrisome.

That said, you have a very tough job that I wouldn't want to do and I thank you for your service.

"Some Studies" : Not exactly a valid source, but just assuming your percentage, What is more dangerous in today's law enforcement than serving a warrant at a Crack house with armed gang members within? "Drug searches", you make serving a warrant on a Crack house sound like shopping for Viagra at the neighborhood pharmacy.

"Wee hours", not really relevant. Do you think these gangs keep office hours. From personal experience, I don't know what experience you have with Drugs, Gangs and armed offenders, but they tend to stay up all night and sleep during the day. Lets just agree they work the midnight shift.

"Lack of Oversight and Accountability" Really? In this current state of frivolous lawsuit suit happy litigious society where McDonald's gets sued for serving hot coffee "Hot".

As noted by others, Police are the most regulated/over-sighted/consent decreed profession there is. The SEC are playground monitors compared to the Justice Department's, Civil Rights Division that oversees police conduct. When has a citizen, criminal or anybody, foreign or domestic been denied bringing suit against any government agency? Does every suit win a judgment against the agency? Not always, it depends on the evidence presented.

In my humble, yet experienced opinion, overzealous, misapplied, undertrained SWAT Teams should not be your biggest worry. Although I admit, pictures of SWAT guys with their gear are easy to mock and the instances where innocents are hurt or killed are horrible. What should worry you is the officer that has been demoralized and completely apathetic. The one that actually hits the donut shop, reads the paper, writes and couple of tickets and could care less if your community is over-run by Gangs and drugs, or your house has been burglarized or your mother is attacked on the street because some poor, beaten down by society, no opportunity thug, decides that it would be fun to play the "knock out granny" game today. Want to know the current state mind of the police? Google Second City Cop (Chicago) or Thee Rant (New York). You'll find apathy rules the day and proactive policing is just not worth the liability.

Rant off.....

PS: We really do appreciate it when a citizen says hello or Thank you. Its like a beacon in the fog that says not all citizens are haters.

mugwump
11-10-2014, 11:54
I am not attacking you or the beat cop, TO. I'm expressing concern about the direction of judicial and law enforcement policy.

Multi-Method Study of SWAT Teams (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/223855.pdf) DOJ-funded study of 2027 departments with >= 50 sworn officers to determine how SWAT teams are trained, integrated with hostage negotiation and emergency medical services, their weapons and tactics, and incident reports. Look at the participation rates (less than 1/10 departments would answer questions regarding shots fired, tactics, etc.) and 71% of roll outs were warrants. Active shooter/hostage/barricade was 18%

The latest ACLU study (more recent) had 80% of roll outs for warrants (62% for drugs with 36% of those finding no contraband of any kind and an additional 29% without an outcome detailed, which to me means "no dope found").

Cops are burned out because the current tactics don't work. You're fighting a drug war that can't be won. Sharking cell phones and doubling-down on no-knocks aren't the answer IMO.

I'm going to shut up now. You have an impossibly difficult job and I'm not trying to make you feel worse about the situation. I'm the guy who waves at you and smiles when you drive by, who doesn't give a cop a hard time on a traffic stop and ends the interaction by saying "stay safe out there." But civil forfeiture, all of these no-knocks, license tag scanners, cell phone sharking, etc. seem un-American to me.

therunningwolf
11-10-2014, 15:02
I read this once I came off the beat this morning and thought wow this developed fast, and got way off the subject of what was the original intent. Let me clear up some things. I come from a small department, we have no SWAT team, our SO just stood up a small SRT, but us at PD have nothing. Several members of my department have never even shot a AR, much less had training on one. We don't have the money for these expensive training courses and gear, I am trying to bridge that gap and get the training for myself to bring back to my guys. My 2015 schedule is booked between courses with guys like Paul Howe, John Hurth, Travis Helay, Kyle Lamb, etc. What bit of funds I have left I am putting toward getting a decent rifle made, and trying to open the city officials eye to the fact that while we don't need a SWAT team, we need people with the training to handle an active shooter situation or very high risk warrant gone bad. While meth labs are the big thing here, we also have gangs, crack houses, pot fields and the such.

Pulling a trigger makes up less then 1% of my job, but it is the part I feel least prepared for, and once the trigger is pulled the decision is final. I am putting a lot of effort into training, and getting my brothers to do the same. I have 3 schools in my AO, it is MY responsibility to protect them should some psycho go crazy and I will not be lax in that responsibility. We also have a lot of drugs, with drugs comes guns and gangs. If the need arises and I cannot solve the issue with a sharp mind and smooth tongue, as a last resort I want to have the means and ability to end the threat. That is my only desire with this rifle, to use as a last resort. To put it simply, I am attempting to build an efficient and effective machine, that I hope to never have to use.

On the suppressor topic. While I was enlisted I saved my money, rather than blowing it on booze. Thus where I got the funds for a suppressor. I am making less then E-3 pay now, and have bills so I don't have the same amount of cash flow to put into training and gear like I used to. The info on the MP5s is interesting, and I will be passing it onto my Capt. Those would fill the role we need fairly perfectly.

Thanks for all the info you guys have provided, it was not my intent to stir up a mess in your house.

MR2
11-10-2014, 17:12
Thanks for all the info you guys have provided, it was not my intent to stir up a mess in your house.

I don't see any mess. Rather good discussion all around.

Peregrino
11-10-2014, 17:50
I too am pleased with the quality of the discussion.

And now that you've expounded at length on your situation - my advice changes to read: stick with your current carbine and get a suppressor that will fit the permanently attached compensator. (Personally I prefer a 16" 5.56 carbine with a mid-length gas system but you've already made the investment.) The money you save will provide more "bang for the buck" if spent on quality training. When you're making more than E-3 pay, you can get an extra SBR upper and register your lower. My experience says for most situations I would expect to encounter under the conditions you describe the carbine is an 80% solution while the SBR is only a 40% solution. Yes - there is overlap. Quality instruction will quickly show you that a 3-4" difference in overall length is not a significant handicap. The additional muzzle velocity however, IS a significant improvement WRT terminal ballistics. I suspect you'll learn to appreciate the "general purpose" nature of the carbine a lot more than the "convenience" of the SBR. Besides - I'll bet there's a lot more opportunities to employ a carbine outdoors than there is an SBR indoors; especially in a community so small it only has 5 officers.

Course all that is MOO, YMMV.

miclo18d
11-11-2014, 07:38
It's a good discussion but I want to publicly apologize for hijacking this thread. As it gets further from the OPs original question. I do think that it is good question to ask an LEO the why, but this is the weapons forum and not the Police Militarization thread.

Just wanted to be clear.

TacOfficer
11-11-2014, 22:13
I feel vindicated due to the QPs advice. :)

I have a 16" mid length in the trunk with a RDS and Surefire light.
Currently I use a fixed front sight and folding rear and was weighing the merits of changing to a fixed rear sight (LMT). Despite the hearing protection benefits, our dept forbids suppressors. :confused:

Suggestions are welcome.

TO.

The Reaper
11-11-2014, 22:21
I feel vindicated due to the QPs advice. :)

I have a 16" mid length in the trunk with a RDS and Surefire light.
Currently I use a fixed front sight and folding rear and was weighing the merits of changing to a fixed rear sight (LMT). Despite the hearing protection benefits, our dept forbids suppressors. :confused:

Suggestions are welcome.

TO.

Absent the can, the shorter the barrel, the greater the sound and blast.

The mid-length is the way to go with a carbine.

I like the Troy front and rear sights. They are intended to be a backup.

I would want an optic for a primary. Zero mag for CQB and close-up work, optics with low magnification (four power or less) for outdoor or longer engagements.

TR

TacOfficer
11-11-2014, 23:46
Absent the can, the shorter the barrel, the greater the sound and blast.

The mid-length is the way to go with a carbine.

I like the Troy front and rear sights. They are intended to be a backup.

I would want an optic for a primary. Zero mag for CQB and close-up work, optics with low magnification (four power or less) for outdoor or longer engagements.

TR

Thanks TR,

I have a Eotech mounted on a LaRue on the carbine but also have a aimpoint pro also on a LaRue cantilever mount. I tend to migrate back and forth between the red dots.

I'll look into the troys, but I might have to change the rails or get a gas block that has a little rail on top.