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Richard
09-29-2014, 09:43
This is not the typical "d**k measuring" piece one might expect from the title, but a pretty good example to ponder and remember.

Richard

The Difference Between Rangers and Special Forces

http://sofrep.com/18406/the-difference-between-rangers-and-special-forces/

Trapper John
09-29-2014, 10:23
Yep, that 18X got it and he pulled victory out of the jaws of defeat. :D

PRB
09-29-2014, 16:45
Good little article.

UWOA
09-29-2014, 20:00
This is not the typical "d**k measuring" piece one might expect from the title, but a pretty good example to ponder and remember.

Richard

The Difference Between Rangers and Special Forces

http://sofrep.com/18406/the-difference-between-rangers-and-special-forces/

Being a short tab and long tab guy, I guess I'm bi-polar as well ....


Nonetheless, the article is a striking example of some of the differences ... unfortunately, with our DA mission capability, the lines have been blurred ... and in some cases some of us have lost sight of our 'bread and butter' mission -- UW.

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PRB
09-29-2014, 20:43
Being a short tab and long tab guy, I guess I'm bi-polar as well ....


Nonetheless, the article is a striking example of some of the differences ... unfortunately, with our DA mission capability, the lines have been blurred ... and in some cases some of us have lost sight of our 'bread and butter' mission -- UW.

.

I don't think guys at the ODA level lost their way.....you go with what you are given.
I watched ODA's doing good stuff with Afghans even when their mission was over focused.

UWOA
09-30-2014, 00:51
I don't think guys at the ODA level lost their way.....you go with what you are given.
I watched ODA's doing good stuff with Afghans even when their mission was over focused.

PRB, I'd love to believe that, but from what I've read on this site in other threads, too many times it's DA this and DA that ... that's the problem with 'what you are given' ... the head shed, reacting to the times has, in my estimation, begun to de-emphasize UW in favor of DA, if only to maintain a share of the spec ops pie.

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miclo18d
09-30-2014, 06:10
I don't think guys at the ODA level lost their way.....you go with what you are given.
I watched ODA's doing good stuff with Afghans even when their mission was over focused.
I agree with you! I also have Short Tab Long Tab Syndrome and I view them as assets, not holding me back.

DA can fall under UW. You don't disrupt services with UW. You do it with DA in a UW environment. Knowing how to conduct DA is an asset that many don't have! Yes the 18x pulled a great idea but did he have security or support for the assault team or did he just pull a "I saw this on TV"?

UW is an environment as is FID. These are also mission sets. Within those mission sets are DA, SR, CT, etc. Yes those missions can also be stand alone unilateral missions, but in UW and FID, you have to train your G's to conduct DA to be effective in the UW environment.

Afghanistan was a UW mission at the beginning and quickly changed to FID. Inside the FID mission, there is also DA. We pulled some daring DA missions to kill or capture facilitators within the Kandahar AOR using our indigenous forces. Zero fatalities with several bad guys being brought in.

UW was not a single game in town, unless HUMINT operations are now called UW? As PBR stated you work with what you are handed.

Trappertod
09-30-2014, 06:58
That article was a good read, sometimes after doing something a certain way for so long it is hard to think outside of the box. From my reading that is what SF is all about. Thanks for sharing.

UWOA
09-30-2014, 11:13
I agree with you! I also have Short Tab Long Tab Syndrome and I view them as assets, not holding me back.

DA can fall under UW. You don't disrupt services with UW. You do it with DA in a UW environment. Knowing how to conduct DA is an asset that many don't have! Yes the 18x pulled a great idea but did he have security or support for the assault team or did he just pull a "I saw this on TV"?

UW is an environment as is FID. These are also mission sets. Within those mission sets are DA, SR, CT, etc. Yes those missions can also be stand alone unilateral missions, but in UW and FID, you have to train your G's to conduct DA to be effective in the UW environment.

Afghanistan was a UW mission at the beginning and quickly changed to FID. Inside the FID mission, there is also DA. We pulled some daring DA missions to kill or capture facilitators within the Kandahar AOR using our indigenous forces. Zero fatalities with several bad guys being brought in.

UW was not a single game in town, unless HUMINT operations are now called UW? As PBR stated you work with what you are handed.

Excellent points; I agree. My statements were centered on DA as a unilateral mission; of course, if you are to be successful in the UW environment you should, but not necessarily must, be able to perform DA missions as a component of the UW mission. I include the caveat because in at least one 'situation' I was asked to respond to (pre-911 -- after I retired but because of my SF background while working for the FBI on a task force, by a third world party), non-attributable sabotage and other clandestine ops were the options available due to the stranglehold the enemy had over the population. Needless to say, they didn't like my advice that would have them doing that for fifteen to twenty years before engaging with guerrilla forces.

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miclo18d
10-01-2014, 06:36
Needless to say, they didn't like my advice that would have them doing that for fifteen to twenty years before engaging with guerrilla forces.

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I think that is an excellent point too. UW is a strategic goal, that has to be emplemnted at the national level. It's "The Long Con". At this moment in time (since Reagan), I don't think national leadership can think past the ends of their noses. They don't see the value of UW or that it is too risky (I won't go into the SF maturity level thing as we have beaten that to death elsewhere).

The roots that we need to get back to are secrecy and I'm not talking about being on CNN with a great big bushy beard and saying your name is SFC Steve (last name omitted to make yourself tacticool). I'm talking NO press. No mention of missions. Interviews at USASOC level only, that tell the world nothing.

I got to do things in places (non-combat places) that I thought were really cool and it was never talked about, barely in the team room! You could say possibly UW related you could even say possibly DA related. The point being was that it was real and we felt like THIS IS WHAT SF IS ABOUT!

Streck-Fu
10-01-2014, 09:14
Post meant for another thread....

miclo18d
10-02-2014, 05:47
I was just thinking (I know that's dangerous for me) that of so many places in the world, we should have a UW plan happening in Kurdistan. Teams in there on the low down supplying training and weapons. We have failed those people SO MANY times and they are the "Yards" of the Middle East! They are smack in the middle of this entire ISIS thing. They are the future of that area for US interests and we are blowing it....again (for like a third time).

WarriorDiplomat
10-08-2014, 18:49
I was just thinking (I know that's dangerous for me) that of so many places in the world, we should have a UW plan happening in Kurdistan. Teams in there on the low down supplying training and weapons. We have failed those people SO MANY times and they are the "Yards" of the Middle East! They are smack in the middle of this entire ISIS thing. They are the future of that area for US interests and we are blowing it....again (for like a third time).

We have the beginnings of UW in every country by the nature of what we do. You are right the Kurds would be an ideal G-force unfortunately by watching the situation develop we have leaders chompin at the bit to get their piece of the pie just like the 2 previous times and I suspect we will see the balance of power in the region shift towards an even worse situation. Too bad our leaders lack to patience, with UW we could assist the situation to develop more naturally with a more permanent solution favorable to US interest.

WarriorDiplomat
10-08-2014, 19:00
This is not the typical "d**k measuring" piece one might expect from the title, but a pretty good example to ponder and remember.

Richard

The Difference Between Rangers and Special Forces

http://sofrep.com/18406/the-difference-between-rangers-and-special-forces/

Ironically enough many of the SF guys working here in the Q-course have the exact thought process of the Ranger and preach DA, kill them all let god sort them out. It also seems everyone up the COC love these guys hence promotions into E8's etc....I hope the X-ray is a sign of the changing of the GWOT mindset that has damaged our UW capabilities.

tom kelly
10-11-2014, 21:18
We have the beginnings of UW in every country by the nature of what we do. You are right the Kurds would be an ideal G-force unfortunately by watching the situation develop we have leaders chompin at the bit to get their piece of the pie just like the 2 previous times and I suspect we will see the balance of power in the region shift towards an even worse situation. Too bad our leaders lack to patience, with UW we could assist the situation to develop more naturally with a more permanent solution favorable to US interest.

The U S A needs a war time CONSULARE, not a community organizer without a plan???? Remember to VOTE RIGHT on NOV. 4, 2014. Tom Kelly

Trapper John
10-12-2014, 09:16
I was just thinking (I know that's dangerous for me) that of so many places in the world, we should have a UW plan happening in Kurdistan. Teams in there on the low down supplying training and weapons. We have failed those people SO MANY times and they are the "Yards" of the Middle East! They are smack in the middle of this entire ISIS thing. They are the future of that area for US interests and we are blowing it....again (for like a third time).

Absolutely agree! And should take this one or two steps further to get ahead of the ISIS epidemic. Turkey and Pakistan are extremely vulnerable and IMO a well thought out UW campaign could prevent ISIS destabilization in one or the other. Both are nuclear states and ISIS destabilization and control of either would be a nightmare.

I read a piece from Foreign Policy (I think) about why UW is not adopted as a strategic policy in the U.S. I will dig that up and post it in one of the UW threads started elsewhere. Don't want to hijack/derail this thread.