War in Europe ?

[LarryW]

(All this is JMHO, and I know what value that has. Still...)

The view from the doorstep of Russia is different from that of the WH. My way of reading history says it's a 50-50 chance at best, and when it comes to the safety of this fair land those are shitty odds. What is Golf Boy and Pinhead doing about it? Zip point shit. Would anyone rule this out?

War in Europe: Putin has invaded Ukraine. Is it hysterical to prepare for total war with Russia? Or is it naive not to? (By Anne Applebaum)

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/08/vladimir_putin_s_troops_have_invaded_ukraine_shoul d_we_prepare_for_war_with.html

WARSAW, Poland—Over and over again—throughout the entirety of my adult life, or so it feels—I have been shown Polish photographs from the beautiful summer of 1939: The children playing in the sunshine, the fashionable women on Krakow streets. I have even seen a picture of a family wedding that took place in June 1939, in the garden of a Polish country house I now own. All of these pictures convey a sense of doom, for we know what happened next. September 1939 brought invasion from both east and west, occupation, chaos, destruction, genocide. Most of the people who attended that June wedding were soon dead or in exile. None of them ever returned to the house.

In retrospect, all of them now look naive. Instead of celebrating weddings, they should have dropped everything, mobilized, prepared for total war while it was still possible. And now I have to ask: Should Ukrainians, in the summer of 2014, do the same? Should central Europeans join them?

I realize that this question sounds hysterical, and foolishly apocalyptic, to American or Western European readers. But hear me out, if only because this is a conversation many people in the eastern half of Europe are having right now. In the past few days, Russian troops bearing the flag of a previously unknown country, Novorossiya, have marched across the border of southeastern Ukraine. The Russian Academy of Sciences recently announced it will publish a history of Novorossiya this autumn, presumably tracing its origins back to Catherine the Great. Various maps of Novorossiya are said to be circulating in Moscow. Some include Kharkov and Dnipropetrovsk, cities that are still hundreds of miles away from the fighting. Some place Novorossiya along the coast, so that it connects Russia to Crimea and eventually to Transnistria, the Russian-occupied province of Moldova. Even if it starts out as an unrecognized rump state—Abkhazia and South Ossetia, “states” that Russia carved out of Georgia, are the models here—Novorossiya can grow larger over time.

(Cont.)

Vlad wants to destroy NATO credibility altogether. De-tooth the cat. He has Belarus in his pocket and an isolated Russian enclave in Kaliningrad. He's going to take eastern Ukraine. The bigger question is where will he go and what will he take next? JMHO but I don't think there's an organization in DC ready to deal with this scenario. No, and not DoD either.

[Remington Raidr]

where's my gubmint check, dude?:rolleyes:

[Sohei]

He wants to go back to "Cold War Motherland" boundaries and make "Putingrad" the capital city.

[ddoering]

Right now Nato is leaderless because we don't have a plan. What time is tee-off?

[ddoering]

He certainly has surrounded himself with incompetence.

[akv]

Putin is a turd, a great deal of his predecessors were significantly worse turds and did much worse things to the Ukraine including genocide, the US has never seen enough self interest here to care much in the past, what has changed?

It's a raw deal for the Ukranians, they have my empathy, but they are not NATO, if the Tatars even fart across NATO borders it will be a war that ends Putin and he knows it, even Golfie Boy concerned with his legacy, could duck that. With the US distracted by GWOT he took the opportunity to reclaim areas they were losing after the Soviet Collapse. We took advantage of Russian weakness to push NATO borders significantly east did we not?

They say con men are the most paranoid people with good reason, they know what's out there. This ex KGB thug knows the score. Russia's economy is a one trick oil pony and they are losing population so fast their economy will plunge. They are also embarrassed since they were #2 once. All nations want territory buffers between themselves and military powers, we are no different. Would we tolerate Russian armor 300 miles from DC? The Ukraine is also a huge food source for Russia. Putin is just trying to hold on to a deteriorating Russia. The Ukraine could go the route of Chechnya type guerrilla war which could also end Putin. So could a drop in oil prices, or any number of things.

My $.02 the reduction of US armor in Europe should be reversed just in case he really is a nut, otherwise just sanction the tar out of him. As an American it's also not a horrible thing Western Europe might be spooked into once again increasing their own military spending and capability instead of whining about the Americans who defend them. This American money is better spent on the US economy or ending ISIS. A safe haven for well funded Islamists is unacceptable as 9/11 tragically demonstrated. Finally Putin is the devil we know in a very bad place...

[LarryW]

...It's a raw deal for the Ukranians, they have my empathy, but they are not NATO, if the Tatars even fart across NATO borders it will be a war that ends Putin and he knows it, even Golfie Boy concerned with his legacy, could duck that.

My $.02 the reduction of US armor in Europe should be reversed just in case he really is a nut, otherwise just sanction the tar out of him. As an American it's also not a horrible thing Western Europe might be spooked into once again increasing their own military spending and capability instead of whining about the Americans who defend them. This American money is better spent on the US economy or ending ISIS. A safe haven for well funded Islamists is unacceptable as 9/11 tragically demonstrated. Finally Putin is the devil we know in a very bad place...

Certainly agree with your info, sir. But, I don’t think Putin sees the correlation between his invasion into Ukraine and anything negative, up to and including any sanctions the EU or US might levy. Putin doesn’t give a damn about sanctions or even the use of tactical nukes, especially if he gets in a piss-war with Ukraine. Like the turds who preceded him, Putin sees the Russian people as tools which advance the State, and apart from that the Russian people have no value at all. He’s a KGBer and right now he's enjoying his time in the public eye as the victim. Winter is coming like a reinforced brigade. It’ll weaken any resolve the citizens might have in Eastern Europe, and he'll play to the Russian psyche of noble suffering (especially as they see the west getting through the Christmas season all toasty warm and cheery (and you can bet Putin will play up his “holy victim” status to the world stage)). I agree with building up armor in NATO (along the Belarus border perhaps), and add BMD resources in Poland. I think additional US interest should be given to reconstituting our own defense industry at home. This may be a good time to introduce an unmanned fighter air wing to our CVN-21 program, or deploy more advanced warfighting systems in Turkey. Remind Putin how diverse an enemy he is considering. Also, leak to the Eastern European press some photos of the secret burials of Russian soldiers (bet we have some, too). Bottom line is that Putin doesn’t care about Russians, only about discrediting NATO and highlighting his single handed and heroic resurrection of the Soviet Empire. He comes from a long line of turds.

[RomanCandle]

Certainly agree with your info, sir. But, I don’t think Putin sees the correlation between his invasion into Ukraine and anything negative, up to and including any sanctions the EU or US might levy. Putin doesn’t give a damn about sanctions or even the use of tactical nukes, especially if he gets in a piss-war with Ukraine. Like the turds who preceded him, Putin sees the Russian people as tools which advance the State, and apart from that the Russian people have no value at all. He’s a KGBer and right now he's enjoying his time in the public eye as the victim. Winter is coming like a reinforced brigade. It’ll weaken any resolve the citizens might have in Eastern Europe, and he'll play to the Russian psyche of noble suffering (especially as they see the west getting through the Christmas season all toasty warm and cheery (and you can bet Putin will play up his “holy victim” status to the world stage)). I agree with building up armor in NATO (along the Belarus border perhaps), and add BMD resources in Poland. I think additional US interest should be given to reconstituting our own defense industry at home. This may be a good time to introduce an unmanned fighter air wing to our CVN-21 program, or deploy more advanced warfighting systems in Turkey. Remind Putin how diverse an enemy he is considering. Also, leak to the Eastern European press some photos of the secret burials of Russian soldiers (bet we have some, too). Bottom line is that Putin doesn’t care about Russians, only about discrediting NATO and highlighting his single handed and heroic resurrection of the Soviet Empire. He comes from a long line of turds.

Do you have a source other than media disinformation or State Dept accusations that there has been an invasion by the Russian army. I'd put it to you that if there was really an invasion by the Russians, this nonsense of using artillery and airstrikes against civilians in residential areas would have stopped very rapidly as would the Ukrainian military.

[LarryW]

Do you have a source other than media disinformation or State Dept accusations that there has been an invasion by the Russian army. I'd put it to you that if there was really an invasion by the Russians, this nonsense of using artillery and airstrikes against civilians in residential areas would have stopped very rapidly as would the Ukrainian military.


I guess you could say that all information is mis-information, and that the Russians really didn't go into Ukraine, that it's all just cooked up malarkey by Kiev and the evil empire, that this is actually just a disagreement between rational people, and that there's really nothing to be concerned about, that Putin is really a compassionate peace maker trying to help out. "Nothing to see here, Comrade. Move along."

I'm not persuaded.

[The Reaper]

RC, you seem to have a real belief in Putin and the Russian Press.

Any particular reason you give them more credence?

TR

[RomanCandle]

RC, you seem to have a real belief in Putin and the Russian Press.

Any particular reason you give them more credence?

TR

TR not particularly although I admit it obviously comes off that way. I have major reservations about the Western press however. The era of journalists asking questions and reporting objectively seems to be over and IMO we are fed a copy and paste version of whatever politicians want us to hear. Hell I think these guys could do away with their press departments. Is there no other side or do they simply choose not to show it. One thing I will give to the Russian media is they put on their press kit and go into areas where they are targeted for being Russian and do their jobs. They do show a side that the Western press refuses to acknowledge. Of course, they are biased towards the Russian POV one must bear that in mind with any press these days.

As for so called leaders, politicians, presidents etc? There is no way I believe anything they spout? Do you think the world is being led today by men of the caliber of Roosevelt, Churchill or Reagan?

As for my opinion on Putin. He has his own interests. If he is on the rampage as our fearless leaders and their media mouthpieces would have us believe, he certainly is masterful at not showing it. On the other hand based upon what I have seen in the media (not the Russian media) The Obama's Cameron's McCain's, and Kerry's of the world might as well be doing the Haku they are so keen for conflict. Maybe they like the limelight or maybe they are posturing because they feel that the international game is out of their league I really don't know. One thing I do know is that once they get the conflict they cannot deal with the aftermath.

[RomanCandle]

I guess you could say that all information is mis-information, and that the Russians really didn't go into Ukraine, that it's all just cooked up malarkey by Kiev and the evil empire, that this is actually just a disagreement between rational people, and that there's really nothing to be concerned about, that Putin is really a compassionate peace maker trying to help out. "Nothing to see here, Comrade. Move along."

I'm not persuaded.

Thanks that was funny..

No I don't think Putin is a compassionate peacemaker trying to help out any more than I believe that Obama just wants peace and democracy for all the underprivileged of the world.

I do know that a lot has been said and done on the basis of absolutely no proof. Considering that the US State Dept has to release "evidence" in the shape of Digital Globe sat images of well what could be anywhere. Are their own satellites all in for service?

I'm just for not being BSd by politicians or media be it from anywhere. Maybe a little more thinking needs to be done on this matter before something happens that can't be undone.

Ukraine aside. What about when Obama, Cameron and Kerry etc were going to act in support of the Syrian rebels. Of course they were only going to arm the Moderate Ones. Now you've got Isis/ Isil etc swarming over Iraq. I guess they're not the moderate ones right? Are there hard and fast rules as to who is "moderate" and who is maybe a little on the extreme side. How do alliances tend to work among rebel groups. Who is strong and who is weak how will the demographics of a rebel alliance look in several months? Not quite the same as they would to the western mind would be my guess.

Now the Kurds are to be armed. Its great for them and also for many who think that they need to be empowered and one cannot help feeling good for them being as oppressed as they have been. But how does this change the balance of power. Lets say ISIS manages to be curtailed. But now the Kurds decide that they need a Kurdish homeland. Great. but that means that they'll need some oil to sell and of course now they have serious weapons. Do they go along with foreign policy or do they become yesterdays friend/ tomorrow's enemy? Just asking.